Citigroup Inc. (C) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

So I'm delighted to welcome our next speaker, who is Jane Fraser, CEO of Citigroup. Jane, I think you've been at Citigroup for 18 years, is that correct?

Yes.

18 years.

That makes me sound old, Richard.

I wanted to say how long you've been in the banking industry, but I won't. And she's been the CEO since March of 2021. This is the first time that Jane has presented at this conference, so we're delighted to have you. Hopefully will be the first of many.

Thank you for inviting me.

No, so it's a pleasure. And we've got a lot to talk about. So we're starting with the same question pretty much for everyone, but you obviously have a unique picture on what's happening with the global economy just given your footprint. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what you're seeing, maybe focus on some of the key geographies that you operate in. Maybe just talk broadly about what you're expecting around the macroeconomic picture for next year? And how much of a divergence you think you could see between some of the regions that you operate in?

I actually think this year has, from a macro perspective, played out largely as we had anticipated as we talked about the different earnings calls. So we're now in a phase of rolling country recessions rather than everyone coming at the same time. And I think that's a good thing. If we look around the world, let's start with Europe because that's where we're in, in the U.K. and Europe, a recession right now. We believe -- and you've got the convergence of all of the stresses on the energy front together, obviously, driven by the war in Ukraine, red hot inflation. And it would be fine, but what I think we're worried about for Europe in particular, I think U.K., Germany, Eastern Europe in particular, and Italy is we're starting to see a more structural energy cost impact. So we're thinking that we may well be seeing a declining competitiveness for Europe because of the impact they're talking about '25, '26 now before the power situation is really properly resolved, and that's going to drive some more of the production to Asia and to the States. So good news for us here. So that's one of the dynamics I think we're a bit more worried about is that this is getting some more competitiveness impact for Europe. When you go to the States, it's -- compared to elsewhere in the world, it is good to be American. And I think we've seen the resiliency in the economy. Obviously, things are softening, but when we're looking at the 2 most important pieces of data, which is services inflation, our economist puts it I think very nicely, which is it is painfully persistent. And that's obviously linked into the strength in the job market, which, again, we're still seeing that resiliency and strength there. So we're anticipating that the Chairman Powell is going to have the rates, while they slow, that they're going to be higher than the market we'd like, for sure and for longer. And that, that's, therefore, more likely to be a recession in -- sometime in the second half of next year. But all else being equal, and that means no one does anything naughty on the geopolitical front, that then looks like a fairly moderate one because banks are in good shape, corporates are very healthy. Consumers are healthy, as we'll talk about. Then when we look at Asia, it's interesting because it's China that is the weaker one in all of Asia. We're seeing the rest of Asia performing pretty strongly that we're seeing mobility again, people back traveling, they're back out and about. And so the Asian consumer is coming back online in a more meaningful way. India is a particular bright spot that we get quite excited about. They've got a 7%, 8% growth rate there. They're going to have more people than China next year, and they've got a bit of swagger about them these days. And the entrepreneurship is just alive and well there. It's China. And we are worried on China. Just the psychological impact, we see it on our people on the ground there of this long of a lockdowns has an impact, we think, on the consumer behavior. So the fact we're seeing them looking at some opening up is a good thing, but I think this one is going to be -- this is going to be a bumpy reopening. And you look at youth unemployment, you look at low labor force participation by women, you look at the aging of the population visiting the housing market, I'm not sure this comes roaring back the way that some people hope it will.

Okay. So a couple of questions. The first is, what are the risks that you are most concerned about outside of credit normalization? And then I guess linked to that, how do you best prepare Citigroup for the economic outlook that you had, especially in the short term?

Yes. So I think the risk we're seeing right now is much less on the credit side. And it's -- I look at our own loan portfolio, our corporate loan portfolio over the last 2 quarters that we announced. We had $22 million of losses off of a portfolio that is a few hundred billion. I mean there just aren't. And now that is also testimony to the quality of the corporate client base that we have, and it's obviously developed well-focused. But we're more worried about market liquidity, and we're more worried about some of the counterparties so that we saw that with the metal exchanges. We saw it with London LDIs. Where is it that these different things pop up? So what's the collateral like? Because there's a lot of nonregulated financial players out there sitting on a lot of assets and they're pretty opaque.

So in terms of how you protect Citi against that, what are some of the things you do?

There are a lot of it or being very, very sensible around your client due diligence in the first place, which I think is one of the areas you've seen. I don't want to tempt fate, but we've not been involved in many of the issues. I'm sure that didn't go unnoticed. That's good judgment on client selection. And the second piece is just being on top of where issues come up or where we see stresses, acting swiftly, decisively and managing the risk, as we did with Russia, for example, too.

Okay. So before we go into strategy, maybe we can talk a little bit about the current environment. Maybe you can talk about the fourth quarter, how that's looking and other things that we should be aware of?

Well, Mark and I laid out a set of different expectations for the year at Investor Day back in March, and it's very important for us that we deliver what we say we will do, and we have this year. So for this year, we're looking at revenues for the full year coming in, in low single digits ex the impact of the divestitures. The same to the expense guidance, despite everything that's going on in the world, we said 7% to 8% for this year ex the divestiture impacts and we will be delivering that as well. At the same time, as we've obviously had to increase capital, and you'd have seen we grew our CET1 by 90 basis points in 2 quarters. So we're pretty disciplined around what we say we do, we will do. And if we look at the fourth quarter in that respect, how is it going? So we're a little nervous answering that question, Richard, the beginning of December, given what a lovely month December always proves to be. With that caveat, if we look at the trading side, for example, so October, November were good months in terms of trading activities. So with the caveat of December is always an interesting month in the market, particularly one where liquidity is where it is, we would expect to be at sort of the 10% mark in terms of revenue growth for this quarter in markets. Investment banking, they've had a tougher go of it, and I don't -- we have not seen the wallet recover in the capital markets the way I think some of us had hoped we'd like in the fourth quarter. So all eyes will turn to the first, and there, we expect to be roughly in line with what the wallet is, which is down sort of 60% or so from pretty extraordinary highs last year, feels a long time ago. And then expenses, as I say, will be in line with what we said. And on the credit side, I think we've got a lot of attention on that one. You've got a few different things going on. We're seeing the normalization of credit, and that is happening, albeit at levels that are well below the pre-COVID level. So the -- really the only areas that we're really seeing the movement in our consumer credit portfolios is in CRS, where it's starting to normalize our, say, retail services. And where it is that it tends to be in the lowest FICOs and in some of the areas which is the newer vintages that we're seeing it, again well below the levels, and on the corporate side is more anticipating where things go, so you've got that normalizing. You've also got the volume growth, as people are borrowing and we've seen the demand on the corporate side for the lending books because the capital markets are shut as well, and very robust growth in trade as well. So that put all that together into CECL models and scenarios that we're expecting the total cost of credit for the fourth quarter probably to be in the 1.7%, 1.9% range. Again, I will caveat that, that we're still expecting more data to come through in December. And some of those data flows are quite material ones. So that number could change, but that's what we're looking at on total cost of credit. And I think that puts us I feel very, very comfortable with the quality of our portfolios, and I feel very comfortable with the quality of the reserving we're doing and the fact we've been very conservative around this, so hope to give it back.

Okay. Great. So anything on spending trends, loan demand or deposit flows that you think stands out?

Yes. I just came back from Europe, and they hate us there because they say you're American, because we have a demand problem and Europe has a -- they do not have a demand problem. They have not seen spending levels and other pieces return to the pre-COVID levels. Whereas in the States, it's still firing pretty strongly. So softening, if we look at the consumer first, we still see very strong growth in some of our core portfolios, like the Walmart's activity's been strong. We've seen in the markets. I look at Costco, I look at American, the travel sectors, the rest. The consumer's still spending heavily there. Less spending in the luxury segments, less spending in some of the home entertainment. I don't think there's a cupboard left in America that's got room to put more of that equipment in. So you get a differentiated story as to where the spend is and isn't, but there are -- our spend is very robust. Payment rates are very strong still. They're coming off a bit, as I said, in Citi Retail Services. But the branded card side, we'd like to see it come off a little bit more. And then on the corporate side, as I talked about, we've seen pretty strong growth on the demand on the lending side. Trade in particular, because again a lot of people say, oh, is trade really happening? Yes, it is happening. There's a lot of flows there. And capital markets being shut, I think, is driving demand for corporate lending, too. So it's quite -- it's softening, but it's pretty robust out there. And the deposit side as well, I think we expect to be flat year-over-year, both the consumer and on the wholesale side. Wholesale, we were -- I mean the deposits weren't -- the betas weren't moving the way we thought they would. I suspect they'll catch up faster now that the -- because of the speed of the rate increase, but we feel very comfortable there. And on the consumer side, it's really here at the higher end that more of the wealth clients are moving into some of the higher returning product suites within fixed income and cash. We've seen those movements but, yes, feeling -- it's feeling pretty healthy.

All right. So let's move from the shorter term to the longer term, and I know you had your first Investor Day after 5 years in March. I was thinking that's like an eternity ago, but a lot has changed. So maybe you can talk a little bit about the progress that you've made since becoming CEO. And maybe -- look, if you were to give yourself a scorecard so far, what would it look like?

Yes. Let's go through a few things. First of all, I'm really pleased with the progress we've made. And I think again, that theme of we feel very strongly we have to -- we've laid out a number of different drivers of the strategy. We've laid out a number of different targets, guidance and the like. And this year, we deliver against them. And that's something, that discipline of what we say we do, we do that. And this year, we have -- we've certainly done that on multiple different dimensions of what we said at Investor Day. If we parse it apart, I think we've laid out a very clear strategy for the firm based on 5 interconnected businesses. And we deliberately put a strategy together that would withstand all sorts of macro conditions and geopolitical ones, and it has, I'm delighted to say. And we've seen that in the results so far this year because the different businesses provide diversification amongst them as well as being interconnected. We feel good about the strategy and how that's progressing. If I look at some of the areas in terms of that progression, transaction services and the certain security services that really -- they're firing on all cylinders. Both helped by the rates environment, but the drivers of growth there are particularly strong. And they're ahead of the plan that we expected. Commercial banks, another one ahead of the plan. On the flip side, Wealth and the Investment Banking wallets, particularly Investment Banking one, is further behind. So we've been replacing some of the investments there, as you'd expect us to, but we'd already made quite a few investments. And we've seen those really paying off with client acquisition, new advisers and talent that we brought in. So you'd love a different macro environment there, but I'm happy with progress. Markets doing a good job there in terms of capital allocation, whilst making sure that we're still very focused around the core client base that we serve and taking the client lens to how we think about returns rather than just the product lens, but very good progress on the revenue to RWA, which is kind of the marker we use. And cards, let's say it's nice to see people borrowing again, and actually some credit normalization is good for our business there. And there's some really good innovation that's happened that's driving that franchise forward. And we've got to move on with divestitures. They've really -- that one has been head down, get those things done and so happy there. So from the strategic perspective, I think we're all pleased with the progress and how we're beginning to see some of the early results coming through in the data. The most important piece, I think though, is that we are running this very differently from how it was run in the last couple of years. We're very mindful that we have to address the issues that have held us back in the past, and at the same time, make sure that our people have embraced not just the new strategy, but also a new way of working. And that tone has to be set at the top by myself and the management team. So we are -- I'd say the difference is in how we're doing it. It's very hands-on in terms of the management approach. I mean it's sleeves rolled up, and it is in there in the details, making sure things are getting executed. We have a very, very rigorous and disciplined approach to how we're looking at how investments are being made, whether are they being made in the right places, are they delivering what they should be, if they're not, what we do about them. Similarly, with the transformation, are we getting the outcomes that we're expecting from it? Are the resources in the right place? Are they delivering what they should be? If not, how do we get different elements moved around so that we're really executing well, all blockages out of the way. Similarly, with the other -- the day-to-day running of the bank, so it's the hands-on management team, it's enterprise-wide. And that's another big difference. Everyone is getting in the room together so when we're going through the data plans and what we're putting in place there, you have risk, you have finance, you have the institutional business, you have the technology team, you have the data team there all in the rooms together, working together, putting horizontal plans together and holding each other to account. That silo breaking is really different from how we used to operate before, which was much more down individual swim lanes. So the operating rhythm of the bank is sleeves rolled up, hands-on from the management team. We're in the details, and we're micromanaging this to drive the changes in how the place works. Third piece, very importantly, is the culture, is culture of excellence and accountability. And there in terms of the progress we -- I was chatting with Mark earlier, our Voice of the Employee results this quarter for the last year are outstanding. I mean really, really strong. And that's a reflection of a few different pieces. It's telling us our people embrace the strategy. They're probably our toughest critics. Our investors are very tough critics, but our toughest critics are our people. If this place, this bank isn't simpler, they're letting us know about it. If things aren't moving fast enough, they're letting us know about it. And we can see that the organization is getting nimbler and more agile addressing the different issues and the simplification agenda is coming through. And the talent we've brought in is just spectacular. I mean I like shopping, but I mean just we've brought in so many. We've brought in some really great, no time fretting at their job, just saying. I'm not contributing to GDP this year. But the -- it's -- we've really got strong talent and I look down the 3 layers beneath me, nearly the majority of people are new enroll. Many of them are new to the bank or other people that we've moved around. Attrition is way down again. And I think that side of things, this culture of excellence, of accountability, but also getting behind delivering for clients, delivering to the regulators on the risk control, delivering to the shareholders. There's buy-in in the organization, there's momentum, we can feel them behind us. So it's a long answer to the question because it's a really important question that for us, we are absolutely determined that we will be addressing the issues that held us back in the past. We are excited by the strategy, and we are running the place very differently in how we're executing so that we're really delivering on everything that we say that we will do, and this is -- and what gets us up every day, this is for our clients, this is for the safety and soundness of the bank, and this is ultimately for the shareholders because we're all shareholders and we want that price to book ratio very differently from where it is today. And we are determined to ensure that you all buy into this and get behind it, too.

So let me ask you on 2 pieces of the strategy. The first is the divestitures. You mentioned that and you've actually done quite a lot this year. So I think it's Australia -- like a lot -- so Australia, Philippines, Malaysia and Thailand, Bahrain. You're winding down Korea and Russia.

Yes, just well ahead of plan, and we just were closing this week the sale of the PIL portfolio, which is the majority of the credit in Russia, too.

So I guess the question specifically is, has any of the macroeconomic uncertainty or just the volatility we've seen in markets impacting your ability?

No, I'm glad it got a move on, that's for sure. We will have got about $3 billion of capital that we'll have contributed from the divestitures this year. And then the -- and the wind-downs are going. You never expect to say the wind-downs are going faster than plan in Korea, but they're going faster than plan in Korea. And I have to say the team has done an outstanding job in Russia. It's going well, and we look to next year. We've got a lot on the plate as well for next year, but we feel good about it.

Okay. And then on the risk control side, I know it's difficult to talk about some of these things because a lot of it is confidential supervisory information, but maybe you can just update us on where you've got to on the transformation part of the strategy and just talk about how the work is progressing from your perspective?

And again, I think of the -- importantly, we think of the transformation not just a consent order, it's the broader modernization of the bank. And if we look at what -- where we've under invested in the past, frankly, around some of the operational and other areas. So we -- where are we. The first phase of work that you do is we lay out the target states of where is it that we want to be for each of the different strands of the bank. And that's one where we have our target state for technology. We have it for data as well as a different risk and control, finance, other areas. Then you put the plan together through the different phases, as it's multiyear, for what are the different phases of work? And then that first phase took quite a few consultants. And then it was also a phase where you then build the execution capacity to do this, so you're bringing in more heads. A lot of that, you've got about 10,000. Also, people are focused on the transformation and learning in addition to the BAU teams that are working as well around it. A lot of that headcount is obviously in tech. It's about -- we probably hired about 6,000 incremental technologists this year, for example. That's got done, and now as we work through the different phases of execution, we update the plans as we go, we get input from the regulators as we go, which we incorporate, and we learn. And new technologies, new pieces come in. So it's a sort of living -- this is a living transformation rather than something stuck at a point in time. And the next phases of work will be replacing people with the technology. So as we are automating processes, as we're automating controls, then that replaces people who are doing the make a check roles, for example, things like that. So we're at the beginning of that phase of that sort of big wave of execution where you're literally rolling through different data sets in the bank, and it's recorded at the wash, rinse, repeat process of just making us almost industrialize as to how do we go through the data, get onto the new technology platforms, integrate multiple platforms into one, sometimes new one. And simplify the bank, and it's just -- it's multiyear, but head down, get on with it. That's where we are.

So let's talk about expenses in that context. I think you mentioned you're on track for the 7% to 8% expense growth ex divestitures for this year. Look, I think one of the bigger questions investors have is, what's the longer-term trajectory for the efficiency ratio for the firm? What are the efficiency initiatives that you think that you can pursue longer term? And -- but when does that actually start to show up in terms of the numbers, especially in an environment where inflation is running at high single digits?

Yes. And again, we didn't think inflation would be where it was, and we're delivering an expense target we set at the beginning of the year. So of the different environment, we're very disciplined around this. We will, of course, give guidance in Q4 around what we look at for the next year, for '23. So I won't be commenting on that. But if you break down what happens to our expense base, as we said, in the near term, so we laid out the near term and medium term, 3 to 5 years, and then the longer term at Investor Day. In the near term, the expense base plateaus. And then it begins to arc down, and there are a few different dimensions to that. First of all, is the investment. So you can imagine if you're investing in technology, you'll have -- you're keeping the old existing platforms running while you're migrating onto the new one, and then you start shutting the old ones down. You're investing in the technology teams who are automating processes and then you're able to take the expenses down. So there is a natural arc to the investments that we're making that will drive the expense base down in the medium term. And we'll see signs of that in the near term as well, it will plateau. Then you've also got divestitures. So we are making good progress. And that one's both the costs you sell, then you have the TSAs for some of the costs that the buyers pay you for while you go through the migration process. So that's -- the nice news is that gets compensated for. And then you have some stranded expense. That can be at a country, that can be at the regional level, that can be at the global level. And that's the expense that we have micro plans for how do we eliminate it. And to start off with this year, it's mainly been getting rid of the expenses in the countries and at the region level for the divestitures we've made. But we will be selling approximately 25% of our employee base. That's 10% of the revenues of the bank. That affords us -- that statement alone should show you the simplification opportunity ahead, right? It's a lot. If this bank -- so when I say this bank will be simpler once we've got more of the divestitures done, that is the case that we'll be focusing on more of the organizational and operational simplification that will also bring the headcount down. In the meantime, we're being microscopic and disciplined about making sure any money spent is being done robustly. And as you say, recession's coming. We'll also be pacing investment sensibly and we'll be taking -- managing expenses the right way.

So let's talk about some of your individual businesses. Let's start off with the Services business because that's been a real bright spot, and that's obviously the TTS business, and Security Services business. You made a big investment in that business, but it's also been a great environment for that business. So maybe you can just parse out how the strategy there is progressing? How much of the growth that we've seen this year is market share gains just versus the environment? And how sustainable is that growth rate as we think about the next few years?

Look, It's interesting because one of the areas a lot of investors, I think, are trying to get their arms around, what is TTS and why does it have such an enduring competitive advantage because we're obviously seeing the benefit of rates. But this thing is really, really growing off the core drivers of talent and technology investments made over the last few years. It's capturing share versus the competition. And we're also getting very good client acquisition where we are a year ahead for a plan, for example, with the commercial bank, which is bringing a lot of mid-market companies. So maybe if I just spend a minute on -- let me take a client example. So I think you have a very large technology firm presence in over 60 countries. And this is -- yes, this type of client will be making well over $100 million of revenues from just in TTS. They have 1,000 accounts in 60 different countries around the world where there's -- we do all of their payments and their receivables. We do their liquidity management. We do all their supplier and procurement and value chain. We do all their payroll around the place. We do their, yes, the commercial cards in there, so it's everything in working capital and into running the guts of really running the institutions. So if we're not there, they don't open. And it's the breadth and depth of that relationship and those capabilities throughout the treasury suites and broader in so many countries, the data that it forwards and how that platform all comes together to enable a treasurer, a CFO, sometimes business development actually operate their institution. That is insanely sticky, and this takes more than 5 root canals to get that out of there. It's growing enormously because we've seen the numbers in terms of cross-border flows. What's happening with trade, all these pieces, they're changing there, they're changing around different parts of the world, but we're everywhere. So it's not that you lose it in one place, but you're growing it somewhere else in the network. And you add up, for 5,000 multinationals, that constitutes $4 trillion worth of volume every single day. We move Germany's GDP daily just for 5,000 multinationals around the world. And we're often in countries that nobody else is in. That is an unassailable advantage. And that's why the fintechs love working with us. So when we look at this, this is growing from -- we tend -- we're getting a very high win rate. In this type of global environment, you want someone who understands everything that is happening in all these different geographies, and we know how to manage the risks and help them with it. So a lot of new client acquisition, a lot of wallet deepening and then obviously, the rates environment is helping us. So this thing, when I say this is the hidden gem of Citi, this thing is extraordinary and it's why so much of the strategy is behind it. And then [indiscernible] would kill me if I didn't mention that we've had $1 trillion of new assets under custody and assets under management that we've onboarded this year in Security Services. So that's another pretty extraordinary platform. So yes, I'm excited about those ones.

So let me ask you a couple of questions about capital and also about just the value proposition for Citigroup because I think we've got a few minutes left. But on CET1, obviously, there's been a significant increase in the requirement over the course of the year. I think you're targeting 13% now. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how you're thinking about capital returns when you get to that level. There's also a lot of uncertainty around where capital requirements could go, there's uncertainty about the macro environment. So when you get to that level, are you going to revisit and say, look, should we keep some of that capital just because of the uncertainty over requirements and over the environment?

Look, I think as Mark said, we're going to -- you take it -- we have a very clear plan and direction and target on capital, but we take it quarter by quarter when it comes to the buybacks. I would point out, it was we've grown our capital by 90 basis points in 2 quarters. So when we say we're going to do something, we put heads down, get it done. On net, we've set a target of 13%, which includes 100 basis points of management buffer, which we're looking at probably in the second -- in the end of the second quarter. I will just check with Mark, I've got that one right, for next year. And we are extremely focused about making sure that we get capital back into our shareholders' hands. But we're just not going to cut corners, right? I think you're seeing us. We'll take the tough decisions, we'll get things done, we get things executed and we just make steady progress and move forward. So our commitment is to get as much capital as we can to our shareholders. But in the meantime, we're just -- we're building. We've got some divestitures next year, one of which will have some CTA associated with it, and we're building all these things into the plan. But I feel very good about the earnings power of the bank and everything else that we've got behind it. It's really just a question of time.

So let me ask you then, from your perspective, when you think about the path for Citigroup, when you think about the valuation, I mean what do you think the market is missing? I mean what do you think is the most underappreciated part of the Citigroup story, from your perspective, when you talk to investors?

So I was thinking it's bad to say from my perspective because I -- what's relevant is the investors' perspective. So what am I hearing from our investors about when they look at us? I mean we have pretty candid discussions, as you can imagine. What I hear the first piece is, I think people are comfortable with the strategy that we've laid out, that we're hearing that this makes sense, the 5 interconnected businesses that will drive us to better return and mix, address the business mix. And the reset that we did at Investor Day about exactly what Citi is, that, I think, is well understood. The 2 bits in that, I'd say, that I would highlight that -- we just talked about TTS. I think investors don't fully appreciate on quite that enduring competitive advantage there and the growth potential and how sticky that is for our deposits, a range of other things and the growth. The second thing I'd say is there's also -- there's a tendency to equate our global footprint with where we take credit risk. Do not. We do not do that. We take our credit risks, when we look at our corporate loan portfolio, over 80% of that is investment grade. It is heavily in those 5,000 multinationals that we talked about. And I think, again, I'd point to $22 million of credit -- actual credit losses in a -- 18, sorry, $18 million, my apologies, of actual credit losses in a 2-quarter period. In this type of bumpy macro and geopolitical environment where there's all hell breaking loose in various parts of the world, I think, takes some comfort around the quality of that credit portfolio. Then the other piece which I think is -- I totally appreciate the proof is going to be in the pudding for Citi in terms of our execution. The management team, we are fully aware of that. I am fully aware of it. We are trying to demonstrate that pudding in terms of we deliver what we say we will do. We're making progress with urgency around simplifying the bank, around getting the strategy executed, running the bank differently from before, changing the culture. And we're trying to make sure that you can see as we go that while this is not a year, while this is not a linear journey, that you can see that this is a management team that is building the credibility and the execution around it. So I think the under appreciation, I don't know if I call it under appreciation of that, but I think we are very aware that we have to deliver, and it's been a good year.

So I think we're out of time, but just one very quick clarification question just been asked on the trading in the Investment Banking, so that's year-on-year?

Yes, year-over-year. Year-over-year. So as we say, we're hoping 10% in our markets based off what we've seen in October, November. And on the Investment Banking side, the year-over-year, the wallet from the Street's down about 60%. We expect to be roughly in line.

Okay. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, very, very helpful. Thank you.

Thank you, everyone.