Citizens Financial Group, Inc. (CFG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon to those in London and throughout Europe, and good morning to those throughout United States. I'm Jason Goldberg, I cover the U.S. large-cap bank stocks here at Barclays. Welcome to our Annual Americas Select Franchise Conference. Continuing a string of banks for this segment, I'm very pleased to have Citizens Financial, who's been a strong participator at this conference, really post its late 2014 IPO. From the company, very pleased to have Chairman and CEO, Bruce Van Saun. Bruce has done a remarkable job. Really, we started closely since the IPO, putting together a very solid management team, from taking a company with really a low-profitability metrics and a limited product set to becoming -- on its way to being a top-performing regional bank, both improving organically as well as some inorganic opportunities and really picked up some really nice acquisitions along the way to get it to where it is today. So Bruce, thanks for joining us.

Great to be here, Jason.

Maybe the best place to start is just your take on the state of the economy. Obviously, you're out talking to customers and clients every day. And just maybe what are you hearing from them about the environment?

There's a lot of optimism that we've turned the corner. Vaccines have been a big part of that and along with government stimulus and the Fed monetary policies. So everybody can see that we're getting back to life as we knew it. Demand is picking up, which bodes well for a good outlook for 2021. I'd say what we're hearing from some of our customers though that there are -- there is quite a difficulty in attracting labor. So as companies gear up to meet the demand, finding labor to fill the open slots has been a bit of a constraint. There's some supply chain issues as well. And then there's general worries about medium-term, where we go on taxes and regulations. So it's pretty rosy generally, although there's a few concerns out there as well.

Got it. I guess, maybe against that backdrop before maybe have some follow-ups. Just maybe any updates to your 2Q or maybe full year guidance, maybe some of the puts and takes around that?

Yes. We feel really good about the full year outlook. We just updated that at our first quarter call. We said we thought that net interest income would be a little stronger than we originally thought coming into the year. Fee income, a little less robust, largely just because mortgage margins have been coming back to earth faster than we initially expected. But more or less good on the revenue line for the second half and for the full year. And then we always do a good job on expenses. And really, the big wildcard has been -- and positive surprise has been credit, with credit improving very dramatically, and it continues to I think, surprise on a positive side. So that all feels really good. I think in the second quarter, there's the usual puts and takes. So we're seeing probably a little slower ramp-up on loans, but I feel confident we'll get to our spot number for loans for the quarter. There's a little more contention for loans, which means a little pressure on yields, which means we have to do better on deposit pricing to offset that. So we're very focused on that. And fees, it's puts and takes. With mortgage probably off a little bit faster than expected, but capital markets, wealth and card fees and some of the fees that relate to economic activity coming back a little faster. So usual puts and takes.

Okay. I guess, maybe we can just unpack some of that a little bit. I guess maybe first, on loan growth, you mentioned a slower ramp than you thought. But I think you said, I guess, positive on your spot guidance, I think you were talking about up 1.5% to 2% for the second quarter. I guess, maybe just expand in terms of kind of what gives you confidence that you're actually going to see loan growth come back? The AJ data has been, I would say, continues to be soft.

Yes. So we have really good pipelines, Jason. So what we're seeing on the commercial side, line utilization is kind of stable, and we hope it starts to pick up a bit as the quarter goes through. But we have a very big origination pipeline for kind of new transactions. So it's a very robust levels. So we think that will kick in -- a lot of that will kick -- start to kick in as the quarter goes through. And then on the consumer side, we're seeing some very good activity levels around auto, around student lending and then our merchant finance and point of sale. So again, the numbers you quoted at 1.5% to 2% was average. I think for the spot, it's more like 4% (sic) [ 3% ]. I think that's the important number to focus on because we -- I think we're going to get that, and that sets us up well for the second half of the year, which is where we expect to really get back to positive operating leverage, nice levels of revenue growth and improving ROTCE on an underlying basis, PPNR driving it.

Got it. And then you mentioned, I guess, maybe a bit more competition on the lending front and having to be more diligent on the deposit pricing. I guess, just maybe expand a bit in terms of where you're seeing the competition on the lending side, the bigger banks, smaller banks, nonbanks? And just on the funding side, I would suspect, on the deposit side, how much more room do you have to lower deposit costs?

Yes. So the answer to the first question is yes. First, there's just the big push for folks to get loan growth. And so particularly on the commercial side, you're seeing a fairly intense competition. And we think we're holding our discipline, and we're focused on niches and industry verticals where we think we can lever our relationships and hold our line on pricing, but it's certainly more intense. On the deposit front, we've brought our deposit pricing down fairly aggressively. You turn what looks like a negative into a positive. So if your cost of deposit funding is a bit higher than your peers, in this low rate environment, where there's -- where a wash in deposits, we turn that into a benefit. So we can be a little more aggressive in terms of taking down the deposit pricing. And that gap is slowly eliminating as we continue on over the course of the year.

Got it. I guess while we're here on the lending topic, one area I get questions a lot about is in terms of the buy now pay later space. Maybe talk about in terms of what you're doing there, how your offering, kind of differentiates from peers and how you think you can win in that segment?

Yes. We've got some really great product capabilities and service capabilities, and we've stayed very focused at the high end of the market with the biggest programs, the most iconic names and partners, be it Apple, Microsoft, BJ's Wholesale Club. And I think why we're successful in winning those businesses is that we're very customer-focused, and we work with a consultative approach on making sure we understand our partner sales objectives and then how to offer the right mix of products to help the partner achieve those sales objectives. And so that's been a prescription for success for us. We're not going to go down market. We're not going to have a massive book of many, many names and smaller names. We've started to focus on industry verticals, much like we do in commercial. You can't be all things to all people, but consumer electronics, retail, home improvement are 3 of the verticals that we see some great traction, and we've started to win a bunch of business there. So we won't be all things to all people. We won't be mass and broad. We'll be very focused on selective names and selected verticals. And we're starting to see that strategy, we're getting a number of wins, and that's going to ramp up balances, which we have a lot of confidence in the outlook for that over the course of this year into next year.

Got it. And for those on the line, just remember, you want to ask questions, you can certainly email me, [email protected]. Just put CFG in the ticker and we'll be sure to get to them, we had some good ones from the Truist presentation. Bruce, you kind of mentioned kind of achieving your ROTCE target. You've talked about a 14% to 16% medium-term target. Maybe just talk to kind of the pathway to get there, when do you think you could achieve that?

Yes. Well, I think you're talking about normalized credit numbers when you talk about that because we're certainly going to achieve that this year with the benefit of reserve releases. But if you kind of anticipate that at some point, we'll get back to normalized provisioning, which reflects more our true credit cost like our charge-offs, I think we'll -- we're getting pretty close by the end of the year by the fourth quarter. If you just look at some of the consensus models, I think we would be around 13%-ish level. So that's not too far away from 14% to 16% if you're [ plugging ] in some normalized credit numbers. So I think the same prescription that allowed us to go from 5% to 13% pre-pandemic was really focused on driving the positive operating leverage, get your revenues growing faster than your expenses and have [indiscernible] in our growth and keep your credit costs stable. That formula, I think, can push us from getting -- ending the year with a pretty good exit rate and driving into the next couple of years, something that gets us towards that $14 million to $16 million.

Sounds fair. I guess one thing you mentioned when you were talking about the lending environment is just some corporate uncertainty around things like regulation and taxes. Just curious, if we saw a change in the corporate tax rate, do you think that would cause you to revisit your thoughts on that?

It's a little early to say, Jason. I think there's -- politically, that's a tough equation as to whether that will move forward into a rate as high as 28% or maybe it's somewhere less than that if there's a political accommodation between Republicans and Democrats. And so at a margin, if it doesn't go all the way to 28. The question then is, do you get some benefits from the spending side of that? Does the infrastructure bill create positives for the banking industry like more loan demand or a healthier overall backdrop, which would wash out a slight rise in the corporate tax rate. So I don't think I'd call that out at this point. It's not something we have a great worry about. We'll see how it plays out. But I think there's quite United opposition from Republicans about taking the rate all the way to 28%. So we're a bit encouraged by that.

Got you. And then if we look at the guidance you've given, it feels like PPNR maybe bottoms out in the second quarter and starts to grow again in the back half of the year. Can you maybe just talk to kind of what gives you confidence that happens. And you've also talked about positive operating leverage in the back half of this year. What levers are you going to need to pull in order to make sure that you achieve that?

Well, again, I think -- a lot of the foundation rests on our positive view towards loan growth that if we achieve that and I think we have the levers to achieve that and the economy is picking up. So that will drive certainly net interest income higher net interest income representing over 65% of our revenues. If you've got the volume side of that working in your favor and you do a good job on the NIM. Protecting the NIM, we'll be putting our excess cash to work in loans and we should see some benefit there on the NIM overall, that's the cornerstone. But I think you're also looking at fees, we expect that mortgage revenues will bottom this quarter and then stabilize and maybe grow slightly in the second half, but all of the economy sensitive consumer revenue should start to tick up in the second half of the year. We've made a lot of investment in our capital markets business and our wealth business. We see good levels of activity transferring through into the second half of the year. So I think it really starts with that revenue outlook, and then we're going to do a good job on expenses. So our top program is really staying on track and delivering. And so I think you'll see our ability to get that revenue going faster than expenses continuing in the second half of the year. We're pretty confident we'll be able to deliver that, absent some upset in the economic environment.

There's a lot in that. So maybe we'll try to unpack that. I guess maybe first on mortgage. Obviously, the acquisition of Franklin American to probably go down as one of the best-timed acquisitions ever. We got probably paid for itself umpteen times over, but I think you mentioned, kind of mortgage -- you think about them in the second quarter, just maybe talk to that, maybe where does it bottom? And then just how do we think of a normalized level for that business between 2019, 2020? Or just how to think about that line.

Yes. Well, I think the good news is with the mortgage business is that volumes are going to stay strong throughout this year. So a little less of a refinance tilt to the market and more of a purchase tilt, although there's some supply constraints impacting the purchase, could have been even better. But I'd say you're still going to have $3.5 trillion plus of originations, which is beneficial. But what you're seeing happen is that the gain on sale margins that really spiked in 2020 given capacity constraints. The industry has geared up and put the capacity online. And so those gain on sale margins have fallen back to more normal levels relatively quickly. And so that's really where the action is in taking revenues that spiked in 2020 back to something a little more normalized. Having said that, for us, that we've invested in this business over time. So Franklin was limited in terms of how much offense they could play and how much they could scale up the third-party channels. So we've invested there. And we've set aggressive goals in terms of adding new customers. So we've gained some market share in third-party channels. And we've also, on the retail side, continued to grow the number of LOs that we have and including a virtual channel, a digital channel that also shows some nice promise and at very attractive margins. So I think the business will be bigger certainly in '21 than it was pre-pandemic in '19. It's certainly going to be a long ways from the spike that we had in 2020.

All right. And then I guess another area you've been successful, has been capital markets. Maybe talk to the sustainability of that revenue line. And then within that, maybe just talk about any capabilities that you think you're missing potential areas of acquisitions?

Yes. So I'm really pleased with the progress that we've made in capital markets, broadly our commercial business. So what we've set out to do at the time of the IPO is really scale up the commercial bank by hiring more coverage bankers and staying focused on industry verticals that we thought where there'd be great opportunities and then move around to put bankers in different parts of the country like the Southeast and Texas and California. So we've established hubs in all those places. And so the size of the business has scaled up, which creates more opportunities for the Capital Markets players. At the same time, we were growing in coverage. We also invested in capabilities in the Capital Markets. So we went out and bought 3 M&A boutiques that help us really serve our customer base better. We expanded into debt and Capital Markets underwriting. So we have a significant level of bond fees and we get some equity tips as well from having presence there with the bigger companies. We have now securitization capabilities that we can offer to some of our customers and we've integrated it, I think, well with the approach to how we cover for cash management and how we cover for FX and interest rate hedging. So very good mindset around solutions and how we cover and being thought leaders when we cover our customers, which allows us to, frankly, outgun many of our regional peers and win jump balls against megabanks when we go toe to toe in our space. We can't say that about the very high end of the market. But in middle market and mid-corporate, pound for pound, I think we've got great talent. And so when you think about what else could we do? We could continue to scale our M&A capabilities by looking at a boutique or 2 in industry verticals that maybe we're not covering as well from the 3 M&A shops we put in place, that's something we could take a look at. But we don't need a lot. We just need to keep -- when we see good people in areas of opportunity from industry standpoint or from add to our product depth, we're just going to go out and hire good people and keep scaling up the business.

Okay. A couple of times in your answer is you kind of touted Citizen's good expense management, which I'm not going to disagree with. I think one of the reasons you've been able to be on the expense side has been kind of your top initiatives and kind of each year or so rolling out a new program with the most recent one top 6 being supersized so you with or so. I guess, typically at this conference, you tease out another top program, should we expect the top 7 on the July earnings call and just maybe how you're thinking about that whole mindset?

No teasing today, Jason. I think what we're very focused on is really executing this supersized program, as you call it well. And we've been adding things into it as we go. So it may just be that we have a standing top program that continues to evolve. In the past year when we went through the pandemic, we added $100 million roughly to a 300-plus type program by thinking through what's changing and how we need to move to a digital-first business framework, business model. And so we created a new work stream around end-to-end digitization, which offers more self-service to our customers and reworks clunky processes and makes us simpler and easier to deal with and saves money in the process, so you raise your customer satisfaction while you're also operating more efficiently and more effectively. So we're thinking about those things all the time. What's the next frontier? What are some of the developments that we see? Artificial intelligence is another area that I think has great promise. And so we're working through how can we deploy that and bring that to the company. So we haven't really made a determination as to whether we'll set up a separate top 7 program or if we find another leg to put into this, we'll just add to the program that we have up and running.

Got you. And just maybe what are the key initiatives you are pursuing to come out of the pandemic period with better positioning than peers?

We've got a number. So clearly, on -- and this is what makes it so exciting really, at this point to, to be with Citizens and all the great things that we're focused on. But yes, I think the point-of-sale finance business for me is very distinctive, and we've got a leg-up on peers and compete well against some of the fintechs that are focused on that space. So I'd say that would be, on the consumer side, really top of the list. We want to expand nationally in a very targeted way towards a highly educated mass-affluent customers. We do a great job of that in our core footprint. We have Citizens Access in place, and we can build around that to create a value proposition with more products like some of our consumer lending products that we can incorporate onto that digital platform. So that's another one. And then I'd say on the consumer side, the third thing is really just very big focus on deepening to do more for our customers as we become their trusted adviser on life journey. And I'd say where we haven't really hit the mark yet is tapping that wealth advice potential. So we've put a lot into hiring up the right people on the kind of FA side, consulting side and then the product capability so that we can really tap that opportunity. So those would be 3 on the consumer side. I think on commercial, again, it gets back to the way we cover and focusing on the right industries and building real strength in terms of the customer-facing people that can offer corporate finance, M&A, capital advice to our customers. And so I think we've got a lot of running room here, the industries that we've really started this concentrated approach, and we're seeing real traction in terms of gaining market share and getting bigger ticket sizes and some of the things that we can do for our customers. So that's been good. And then I'd say broadly, we're also just our inside TOP, there's things like next-gen technology, where we're lifting our technology ecosystem into the future. And we have something called modern operating model, we're moving to agile ways of working, so we can be faster and more innovative as a company. Some really great work is taking place there as well. So lots of great stuff happening.

All right. And remember, for those listening in, [email protected] if you have questions you'd like to ask Bruce. Maybe shift gears to capital and maybe just talk about maybe the outlook for capital return and the dividend. In the past, you talked about a 35% to 40% dividend payout ratio. Just how you think about that in the current backdrop?

Yes. That feels about right still. So we were resolute that we could sustain our dividend through the pandemic period and grow back into it, which we've demonstrated very nicely. We have the opportunity to buy back stock. We're currently running above our targeted capital range of 9.75 to 10, I think, being a little prudent while we were going through that period and building the capitals to those levels made a lot of sense to us, but now we have a lot of flexibility. And as I said, we'll look to further our strategic agenda through potentially acquisitions. These fee-based bolt-ons have been a good place for us to play where I think we've -- very satisfied with the 5 deals we've done. They've all worked out ahead of our expectations for the most part. And so whether we do something else in the M&A boutique space or wealth adviser firms or maybe some things along balance sheet optimization, where we're plugging in an asset class like a private card portfolio or something, there's opportunities out there for us to take a look at. So we'll calibrate, whether we see good opportunities to deploy the excess capital inorganically or if not, we'll buy back our stock. And so that's really I think the balance of this year we'll maintain that strong dividend, but then also toggle between are there opportunities to deploy capital at good returns inorganically or should we just repurchase our stock?

Does the improvement in the valuation of your stock make buyback less attractive? And maybe how do you think about that?

Over my career, Jason, I think it's hard to time the market. So I think you just kind of take an averaging approach that you should regularly be in the market. And maybe you buy a little more on the dips, but don't take yourself out of the market. So -- and I'd say, broadly speaking, my view is that our stock is just starting to round into shape that we still have a relative valuation gap versus peers. So I think there's -- the stock is still excellent value at where it's trading today.

Got it. I guess on the M&A front, you talked about M&A boutiques, wealth advisers, maybe some portfolios. There also seems to be a pickup in bank acquisition activity. How does that kind of fit into what Citizens looking to do? Clearly, it's maybe a good way to expand your customer base, get cost saves as you kind of -- if you consolidated smaller institutions?

Yes. So we have not had that historically high on the priority list. I think we had to walk before we ran in terms of improving our business model and demonstrating that we had a great team and we had momentum and could effectively execute on those types of transactions. I think where we are today, we're certainly in position to consider those types of transactions. But still, we're very disciplined buyers. And so on a valuation standpoint, a lot of deals that might appear, sound strategically don't make sense from a financial standpoint as yet. So anyway, we'd be very disciplined. I think the market, interestingly, has taken a more positive view of those transactions. The market sees the need for consolidation, particularly midsized regionals or smaller banks have to deal with, a lot of stresses around the need to keep current with technology and moving digital. We've been in a low rate environment. And so I do think you'll see continued consolidation with the market taking a favorable view of companies in our size category who can deploy capital at good rates of return with good financial metrics. So we're certainly open to kicking some tires and taking a look. But again, if I had to prioritize, we got some great organic growth around the strategic initiatives, I described earlier. We've got our eye on some fee-based opportunities, but we'll keep an open mind about deals that make sense for us strategically and financially.

And I guess maybe looking at it another way, there's been some banks that are bigger than you that have talked about how they don't even think they had to scale necessary to compete. Is that something that you run up against, but -- or is it -- do you think you're at a size that you can actually compete effectively?

Yes. Look, I've been in banks of all shapes and sizes in my career. And when you get to be a megabank size like RBS was, for example, it's tough to manage and steer the ship and keep people aligned with where you're trying to go. So there's advantages to size and there's disadvantages to size. There's advantages to being our size and there's disadvantages, you have to play to your strengths. And so I think as long as we're -- we have a clear strategy around where we see the opportunities and we really focus and prioritize things well, we can move faster than some of the bigger institutions and seize those opportunities. So I think we can do just fine at the current size. If there's opportunities to scale up a bit and that prove to be beneficial, we'd be open-minded to that. But I'm not -- I don't feel that we're compelled to rush out and do something to kind of land -- get that plus $500 billion -- that some of our peers are all trying to get to that promised land of $500 billion to $1 trillion. I don't think we have to get there to continue to compete effectively.

Got you. All right. And maybe it's always nice when credit quality comes up towards the tail end of these discussions beginning of last year. But just maybe talk about in terms of on the credit front, what you're seeing? Any particular segments or concern as you kind of go through the portfolio?

Yes. Look, on the consumer side, it is so pristine. It's like remarkable. And so with all of the government stimulus and economy reopening, it's -- there's very few worry beats in any corner of our consumer portfolios. And I think we've done a good job of taking people off of forbearance and getting them back to current pay and working with the people who have still been impacted by the pandemic. So I feel good, really good about the consumer side. On the commercial side, the list of industries, we used to just call them industries of market concern, maybe started out at 10% or 11% of the portfolio, it's rapidly declining to be 2% or 3% of the portfolio. And it's the industries that have been most affected by the pandemic; the service industries, hospitality, entertainment, dining, that are now starting to get some life and some tailwind as we get the vaccines rolled out. So I think we're also looking very good. When we look out in our pipeline on the commercial side, see some very positive trends around class and NPA and the like. So we -- as a result of where we are, we took our initial year guidance from 50 to 65 basis point charge-off range down to 35 to 45 basis points, which is a 25% improvement in 3 months, which is pretty impressive. And the trend is your friend that could -- that get even better. Yes, that could get potentially even better.

So it feels like we have a good line of sight for this year. I guess as you kind of look out over the next couple of years, maybe just how do you see losses playing out? I mean would you expect this benign environment to kind of persist for a while, just as it takes a while to kind of go work through the stimulus and corporate America has tons of excess liquidity? And I guess we talked earlier about kind of normalized losses at some point, I guess when do you think that we kind of get there?

Yes. Well, I guess, dividing the conversation to charge-offs and provisioning, I think on a charge-off standpoint, you'll see probably just a gradual move back towards something on the consumer side, but no step-up. It's not like we've pushed a wall kind of out into the future. We're just seeing the situation improve fairly dramatically. But that stimulus cash will wear off at some point. And hopefully, the unemployment goes down, people get absorbed back into productive economy, and we have some running room for a while. So I think you actually could see very good consumer metrics over the next couple of years with a gradual rise in net charge-off rate. And on the commercial side, what you usually see, Jason, you've been around almost as long as I have, is when you're in a good economy, your charge-off rates are 8 years out of 10, well below the through-the-cycle average. And then you have 2 years when you hit a recession and the charge-off rate spikes. But again, there as well, I think you could see below through-the-cycle charge-offs for at least the next couple of years if the economy is doing well. So I think the credit charge-off numbers would be good. And then you're under CECL and your provisioning would be tied more to your front book origination. So if the economy is going strong, then -- and you're doing a lot of originations, you're getting higher loan growth then you could see a situation where you're building your reserve again a little bit because charge-offs are low and loan growth is high. But anyway, that's kind of my broader thoughts on it.

No, helpful. And remember, [email protected] for questions. We've got 5 or so minutes left, and we do have one. Can you ask Bruce if Citizens plans on buying mortgages from government pools to help loan growth similar to peers like M&T, Fifth Third and Wells Fargo? And if so, how long do these loans tend to stick around?

Yes. So we've looked at that, and there are some opportunities to do that to buy some loans, in particular, out of the Ginnie Mae pools. And so I think you'll see us take a measured approach on that throughout this year. And it's not a bottomless supplies. If you do one kind of sweep through the portfolio, you kind of catch a high percentage of them. And they'll stay slightly less duration than the rest of the book, but they'll be around for a while. So I think that's a strategy that most of the regional banks are pursuing, and we wouldn't be an exception to that.

Got you. And I think you used the phrase rounding it to shape when talking about Citizens' valuation, but still below peers despite the improvement we've seen over the last several years. I guess, in your view, what do you think is holding to back the stock from achieving a higher valuation?

Yes. So that's a good question. And Jason, I remember a couple of years back, you had one of those poll EV things and set up a bunch of questions, all of which were potentially good answers. And people said -- the one that one it still resonates in my head was keep doing what you're doing, you need to demonstrate it over a consistent and long period of time. So I think probably the principal thing is that we've been a relatively new company and new management team since the IPO. If that was 2 years back, that was maybe 5 years after the IPO, I was like, perhaps, we've been demonstrating it on a consistent basis for 5 years, what do you mean we have to keep demonstrating it for a longer period of time? But I do think investors who are -- take a long-term view, they want to know that you can navigate rough patches. And so one of the things that was important here was that we had to make it through the pandemic and demonstrate we had resilience and diversity to our business model, which we did. We had, I think, the best PPNR growth in the peer group last year, and which is a reflection of that diversity and the mortgage acquisition we had made, which really helped that. And we haven't blown up on credit. So people thought, "Well, you had to reflate your balance sheet after RBS made you shrink it. Did you get too aggressive in your loan growth? And is the first recession going to be a sign where you actually were too aggressive in your credit posture?" And we kept saying, "No, we haven't been. We've actually improved the credit quality." Even though we've grown, we've focused up-market on the commercial side and very pristine areas of consumer. And I think that's also proven out. So I think what's left is for that to sync in, that we're not completely through the pandemic. So I think you're seeing us move up pretty nicely so far year-to-date. But we have to keep focused on that ROTCE equation, and we have to close the remaining gaps versus peers. And so executing on these initiatives. So didn't -- a good amount of organic growth is important, finding some acquisitions that can get us farther down the track faster, as I like to say, that can be a part of that equation. But that's really what we have left to do is to conclude this pandemic period coming through it in good shape and then keep working on that ROTCE gap and closing that relative ROTCE differential.

Bruce, I think that's a perfect place to leave it. So I'd like to thank you for joining us again this year. I know I promised you last year, we'd be back in London this year, I was a year too early. I look forward to seeing you across the pond in 2022.

Yes, likewise. That will be great. Thank you, Jason.

Thank you.