Clover Health Investments, Corp. (CLOV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us at the 41st Annual J.P. Morgan Healthcare Conference. We're thrilled to have you here. We're also thrilled to have Clover Health and CEO, Andrew Toy. And I'll pass it over to Andrew for his presentation.

All right. Thank you for joining us all today. I am Andrew Toy. I am the CEO of Clover Health. And I'm delighted to take you through like our story, our vision and what makes us different today. And we will have some time at the end for questions. And if you have it or if any of you want to watch them online, have it as well. So standard public company disclaimer. Please refer to our disclaimer here for the forward-looking statements that we may make during this presentation. So let's start off with what's the vision of Clover Health ultimately. So I'll go through our business, our business lines, our technology platform. But what are we thinking about in terms of how can we deliver better care at the end of the day. And I think this summarizes how we think about it. We're empowering Medicare physicians to identify and manage chronic diseases earlier, identify them earlier, manage them earlier. And key empowering physicians at the end of the day. So we are a health insurance company. I'll talk about that. We have non-insurance businesses as well, but we're known to be a payer, a health care payer and we are absolutely obsessed, absolutely focused on empowering physicians. I don't think every payer might necessarily say that. Payers might acquire physicians, that's not quite the same thing as empowering them. But we're all about empowering them to identify and manage diseases earlier, and we build our technology platform, Clover Assistant in order to make that happen. More to come on that. So a little bit about what differentiates us, right? I call it like under our strategy. Number one, we are exclusively focused on Medicare, right? Medicare is what we do. I'll talk about in a second that we are on both Medicare Advantage and in original Medicare via our ACO, but we are focused on Medicare. We don't do the ACA. We don't do commercial, Medicare is what we do. Second of all, we're focused on wide physician networks. I think that's critical to understand what Clover is. We don't have enough doctors in the country as it is. We want to serve everyone. That's our mission. We also think that's a great total addressable market when you can say you can serve everyone. So to do that, we need a wide physician network. We cannot just simply select down to physicians that we happen to already like into a narrow network. I'm not deriding narrow network models, I think they have their place. But how do you serve everybody unless you go on to, and use every physician that you possibly can. So you'll see that this underlies our business strategy throughout. We are focused on the PPO segment, right? The PPO segment of Medicare Advantage. We are focused on original Medicare, which is the widest Medicare network that it is by our ACO. We are about making physicians better at value-based care, making them better at treating and identifying those conditions earlier. And the last dimension, once again, we are focused on our technology, empowering physicians so that we give out Clover Assistant to make those clinicians better at primary care. Not to say that they're bad at primary care, right, but we're saying we can make them better. Because at the end of the day, we have so many therapeutics coming out, so many conditions so many like different protocols that no human being now almost certainly and certainly in the future, can keep all of this in their heads at once. So how do we put the right information and data across this massive ecosystem at the fingertips of clinicians and physicians, right? And so that they can render the right apparent care so that they can do their job. I'd like to say that our user interface to our members, to our patients is the physician, right? The application, the cloud, all of that is powered in the back end, putting all of that compute all that data and then putting it as easily as possible into a human physician's mind so that they can work, do what they do best, practice medicine, use their clinical judgment, help their patients. Between these 3 things, I think that we really -- we can -- Clover is unique in our approach, right? And that's why I want to emphasize that. This is our overall strategy throughout all of our business lines. Our team is a very diverse team. We brought together payers. We brought together people from a pre-payer background, people from provider backgrounds, pure technologists, right? I'd like to say a little bit like the United Nations of health care. We bring together all of these backgrounds because we all know, and you're all at a health care conference that outside of health care, everyone says, yes, you're a health care person, right? I'm sure you've heard that from your friends. You're like, oh, you're a health care person. Health care payer people are not necessarily exactly the same as health care, health system people, right? It's heavily divided up into these camps. We're all trying to do similar things, but we're all -- at the end of the day, have different motivations, do some incentives. And by bringing together all of this expertise, we feel that Clover is in a good place to say, what are we really trying to do, That's good for society. What are we really trying to do that will really create efficiencies, better outcomes for patients, better, more efficient processes for physicians, leveraging technology to put all of these new capabilities into a physician's hands. You need input from a lot of different people. We've assembled an amazing team to do that. Most of you probably know that Medicare is growing. So I'm not going to spend too much time here. But the key part of it that I would take away is that the Medicare market is growing. Medicare Advantage is absolutely taking share and growing as well within the Medicare market. And the fastest-growing part of Medicare Advantage itself is that PPO wide network model. Why is that? Well, we think that people just want choice. That's just the way consumers are set up certainly in the United States. People want choice. I'm not going to do a poll, but sometimes I do a poll where I say, for your own health insurance, people in the room, people watching, when you pick your health insurance, no matter how much you know about health insurance, a lot a little do you pick the HMO or do you pick the PPO? And I've had people say, "Well, I take the PPO". And I say, why? Why do you pick the PPO? And they just say, "Well, it's better". Why is it better? And they're like, "Well, I don't really know. I just think that like, I don't have to think about it as much, if I pick the PPO". And that's right. You don't have to think about it as much because you know that you might -- will probably be able to go to see a doctor that you want to go see and that is important to people, very important to people. It's important to people who choose original Medicare is the main reason they pick original Medicare. Original Medicare has its place. Medicare Advantage has its place. And our view is that there's a lot of concentration of people within Medicare Advantage within those HMOs and bringing choice and amazing benefits to the PPO. We think we really brought that to the market a few years ago. A lot of people are doing it now. It's a great thing for choice. That's a great thing for Medicare beneficiaries. Oh, one thing that isn't at the end of the day is efficient. So this line grows a lot faster, right? The slope of this line is a lot faster than the slope of the line over there. So what's really happening is we're spending too much money per beneficiary and it's unsustainable. So I should also say that as well. People probably do know that. It's, once again, the real flip side of having amazing therapeutics that come to market is that you've got to pay for amazing therapeutics that come to market. Well, how are we going to do that? It's a natural effect. We've got to make Health Care more efficient so we can still get the benefit of all these new capabilities that are coming while being economically sustainable. That's the game. So our framework to serve all Medicare beneficiaries. We divided ourselves and we think about this in terms of 3 different effective divisions within Clover. We're best known for our Medicare Advantage plans right there on the left and these are our MA plans focused on the PPO, like I talked about, we have HMOs, but we're really like known for our flagship PPO plans. A couple of years ago, we launched our ACO. Our ACO is to help physicians in original Medicare, move their original Medicare panels to value-based care, again, to bring -- help trying to bring sustainability to the program. And in the middle there, we're talking more and more about this now is that we do have a Home Care practice that we're very proud of inside Clover as well. And this is for our most needy members how do we look after them in the best place to give them care, which is in the home. It's not quite home health. It's not quite hospital at home. I know all these terms are floated around. We don't look at it in those dimensions. It's more about when you are sick and you really can't go to the doctor, the doctor should come to you. That could be -- and it could be an [ MP, it could be an RN ], but like you should be receiving care in the home. It could be post-acute. It could be heavy comorbid chronic disease. It's just about we will kind of know it. Sometimes people should be looked after in their home, big focus of ours. And our home care practice provides a lot of services to our other lines of business. Ultimately, all of this is powered by this box on the bottom, Clover Assistant and we'll talk much more about Clover Assistant in a second, and its data and insights to help those physicians identify and manage disease earlier. Because if you can do that, we bring better sustainability. We've been -- we get better outcomes. All of these things happen. With that identification and that management. Let's go through each of those. I won't walk through every single bullet point, but we have these 3 areas of our business. For Medicare Advantage, we're PPO centric. I called that out earlier. We're very proud of that. We are designed for growth. We've recently talked about how -- I talked about that we are known for our growth because PPO is so popular and PPO was not really available with good benefits for many years that when we brought that to market that people really flock towards those plans. We see that as an aspect of health equity, right? Making great health care affordable while also having choice. Really, really proud of that. While we are designed for that growth and that fundamentally is our differentiator, we are actually absolutely focused on profitability right now. I'll talk about that near at the end. But our goal is profitability. So we are still growing revenue, but we are backing off the absolute growth view and saying, how do we create, make sure that we create sustainable margins, create sustainable economics so we can be around to make sure we can help as many people as possible. And so I wouldn't say we're growth off, but we're certainly not as heavily growth on as we were a few years ago. But the fundamental differentiator of us being structurally equipped for growth and having a product that people love remains. We're not middlemen, so this is something which people don't talk about very much. It was kind of like jumped out in the early on when we looked at this. But there are -- there is a pathway to success in Medicare Advantage. It's a good pathway. It's very economically sustainable where you just heavily delegate all of your risk, right? You go to your providers and you say, I'm going to actually give you delegated premiums. I'm going to give you a percent of premiums and actually just hand off all the risk to provider groups and then you don't do anything anymore really, right? You step out of the way and you're like you take care of it, you do care management, you pay, you might even pay good, providers may even pay claims. And this is a very successful model. It exists very heavily in, say, Southern Florida, exist very heavily in Southern California. It seems a little inefficient, though, at the end of the day because there is still margin flowing towards a plan in that case. And it's very unclear what the plan is really doing, right? Because in what way are you part of the care continuum, we don't intend to do that, right? I'm not saying that we'll never do delegated risk. I'm not saying that that's a fundamentally bad thing. What I am saying is there is a role for the health plan in being part of that care continuum helping deliver better outcomes, and it shouldn't just be a pure delegation model. We don't intend forever to go to just be pure middlemen. That's inefficient for society as a whole. And I kind of put this in here because I like it, software powered. We are at heart -- if people know my background, I am a technologist. I like the technology as an accelerant change. We are software powered. So we are services light. We are very centric on Clover Assistant to help physicians deliver the outcomes that they need to. So we're focused on our MCR like you can -- in our last couple of earnings, we've talked about how MCR's heading in a good direction. We feel good about that. We are thinking about thoughtful, sustainable revenue growth so we can keep getting the benefit of that being designed for growth while still moving towards profitability as a priority. And significant optimization that we're looking across the board to SG&A to make sure that we are an efficient operational hardness, right? When you're indexed on growth, sometimes you don't do as much of these things. We're doing those things now. For those of you interested in the financial profile, we did issue a press release with some additional guidance for this year that I won't talk about here, but you can look at our press release from yesterday morning. Our ACO, let's talk about that. Like I said, this is not Medicare Advantage to be clear, but it's still Medicare. And this is targeting to people for whom they want to be on original Medicare. They like that massive wide network of people who accept original Medicare. Maybe they have MedSup, Medigap, maybe they don't, but they're on original Medicare. Different kind of business, that's an ACO, very oriented towards physicians, very oriented towards how do you help those physicians get an on-ramp to value-based care. Historically, grew really quickly. There's a lot of appetite in the market for physicians who want to move to value-based care, but are not getting the data, not getting the tooling that they need to move towards it quickly, and we want to be a big part of helping them move towards value-based care with our experiences from being an MA payer with our experience and our technology set for Clover Assistant. So that's second the data point, technology at scale. Our partial model relies on not services, but arming physicians with data and using Clover Assistant just like we do in MA to identify diseases earlier and manage them earlier. Fundamentally, it's all just about making that happen. And we want to be that on ramp to value-based care. Call it, a value-based catalyst over here. So we're very excited by this because it's not often that you see a single company saying, how do you do Medicare Advantage? How you do original Medicare simultaneously? Our technology platform, having a unifying theme between the 2 and being focused on always on PCPs and physicians, those -- that's common, right? That's common to all of Medicare that lets us participate in a very large TAM. And I've talked about our Home Care practice, but let's talk a little bit more about here. I'm very excited to be delivering home-based primary care, right? That this is literally primary care being delivered in that home. We can -- it is not just for [indiscernible] hospice don't think about it that way that we do have capabilities in that area. We really think about it from a mission perspective as saying sometimes the appropriate site of care is just the home, right? People cannot leave their home to go to the doctor, very few doctors make house calls now. We do make house calls. You can think about it that way, if you want to. Very, very proud about that. It can be used in very scenarios, too. So it's not just a readmission prevention program, but we do readmission prevention. It's very difficult in post-acute and post discharge, and many of you know this, to help manage that care. PCPs really struggle to manage that care as well to be able to get in there. Even if you have a very engaged PCP, again, they can't make house calls. They can't do wound care. They can't -- they're not looking at doing that midway when you get discharged with medications from being inpatient. So there's a lot of things we can do in this area that just make care better. We have a really good positive member experience. Our NPS is really solid. I love seeing that. So people who get this Home Care really like it. We love the care that we're rendering. We like to look after people, the patients love it as well. I think that's a really critical aspect of it. And again -- once again, uses Clover Assistant. Clover Assistant ties together all aspects of our care continuum and our own home care practice is no different. Embedded and incubated within our plan, we think this is a general capability, which is really interesting. Just the area of Home Care is something that really is strategically, I think that health care will be moving towards in the next few years. So let's talk about Clover Assistant now. And let's talk about exactly what it is and how it helps. So it's pretty nuanced. But at the top here, it's a cloud-based software platform. It's normally used as a web application. It can used on an iPad or a mobile device or it could be used on -- it's most commonly used within a browser. But that is just the front end to a whole data platform, which is collecting information and signals in our role as a payer from across the health care ecosystem, cleaning it, looking at it. And most importantly, and this is the thing I'll talk about today. What are driving capabilities and driving insights to the actual physician. We measure Clover Assistant on its ability to change the pathway of care, and I'll talk about that in a second. So yes, it's about data. Yes, it's about insights. Yes, we have machine learning and we have an expert system, but it's all about how we actually present this information that lets a very wide, diverse set of PCPs. We look at it and say, yes, that's helpful. Yes, I might do something different based upon what you've just shown to me. Interoperability, really excited about interoperability, right, as a technologist. It's been happening for a while. And if you think about interoperability, a lot of regulations came online. They kind of came online during the pandemic, which is unfortunate, but it got delayed a little bit, but are actually landing now. Where the government, CMS and the government are saying, you kind of have to do interoperability. It's like a next-generation version of meaningful use, right, where we're saying, you have to now share your data, not just have it within an electronic format. I don't know if people are from providers here or maybe HCIT people. Most people see this as a burden like, "Oh, okay, I have to be compliant, I have to do interoperability", right? And I think the reason that the fact that people think of this as a burden, is really interesting to me because that means that people have no ideas on how to use this data. They're just like, "Oh, okay, we have to do it fine, we'll do it". We should have amazing ideas on what we're going to do with this data. And at Clover, we do have amazing ideas I think of what we're going to do with this data because we already see that the richer the data is, the more -- the better fidelity we have, the more granular, the more real time it is directly flows into making it more useful to primary care physicians. We just know that. We see it already. So we're incredibly excited by this new next wave of interoperability that we're going to see over the next year or 2 because it will turbocharge not only new Clover Assistant features, but the features that we already have, right? Like models that we already have will get better. We will let us train new models. That will let us do new kind of feature sets. All of these things are going to be turbocharged by data, data and that data is coming online via interoperability. So look for more there, but really, really excited by the progress in the next few years that we're going to see across the industry, but definitely for Clover Assistant. It's a physician-centric design. So I talked a couple of years ago that we didn't yet have EHR integrations, but we were going to do them. We have since done them, and we've integrated into the major EHRs, so we're proud of that. But at the end of the day, we're not building Clover system to replace an EHR. It is not an EHR, it is us trying to say, how do we help you with Clover Assistant for a reason. How do we help physicians make better decisions using their clinical judgment. That's not really the job of the EHR. The EHR is like a documentation tools. Yes, there's features that are coming in, they're trying to do a little more than that. But we are trying to be a general layer across many, many different kinds of workflow in the EHR that lets physicians just be better at their jobs. So ultimately, we provide a fulsome longitudinal picture of what's going on with a given patient. We do that by giving snippets of insights to PCPs when they're thinking about that patient and thinking about care. And when we do that, we believe that we're seeing good signals that care is actually getting better. I'm going to talk about that more in a second. It's widely deployed. I have a little bit of a map here. We have the ACO business and we have the MA business. And so those don't directly overlap with each other. So you can see that we have good geographic coverage in a number of states, and we can do more and more here. And a number of physicians already using it. There are videos here that we put online with physician testimonials of anybody wants to see them, these are some quotes from those physician testimonials. The key is, is that we have a lot of our membership covered right now, and they are already going to see Clover Assistant physicians. We're proud about that. We want even more people to be going to see Clover Assistant physicians because we truly believe data-powered care, is better care. So really excited about this next part. So Clover Assistant changes the time line of care. It's not about how much data you have. It's not about like machine learning models and all those kinds of buzzwords. It's about how do we make those things useful to an actual practicing clinician and how do we make it useful to the widest set of clinicians possible, right? That's what the ultimate goal is here. All technologies are means to an end. So let's talk about this first example. Clover Assistant helps in the early treatment of diabetes. So here, the set that we're looking at, is the set of people for whom we have no record of diabetes, right? There's no record in our data sets. We have a lot of data sets, but we don't see a diagnosis for diabetes. We don't see any diabetes medications really, that's on left-hand side here, not really any diabetes medication use in this set of folks. Then they go into the PCP and our risk algorithm identifies as this person may be diabetic, right? And that's a whole set of -- that's from the Clover Assistant data platform. And that surfaced to the PCP and says, "Hey, have you considered diabetes here". Remember, there's no meds here, there's no other signals, no previous diagnosis. It's just saying, have you thought about diabetes here, they don't have a -- the diagnosis here. And we see that a good number of times, not every time, that would be magic. But a good number of times, the physician is saying, "Yes, you know what? I have not really thought about that before, but I do believe this patient is diabetic, " And they put in that first-time diagnosis of diabetes. And that's for day 0, which is this large spike here. And this large spike is not diagnosis. This large spike is diabetic medication fills occurring contemporaneously with the Clover Assistant visit. So that PCP in one go, when a Clover Assistant visit is happening is, for the first time, saying, there's no previous diabetes diagnosis, but I do think using my own clinical judgment that there is diabetes present. They're doing -- they're finding that disease earlier and then they're prescribing, and we are seeing medication fills same day as a spike and then following as well, not all happening the same day, all those diabetes medications. So we have pretty high conviction here that when we talk about that, that diabetes diagnosis and that treatment was an emergent property of the use of the Clover Assistant on that particular day. And that's a really cool thing that we're seeing, right? That actually a physician in conjunction with them using the tool, the time line of care has changed. We identified it earlier. We started managing it earlier. You know us. I didn't talk about economics here. I didn't say and then the MLR went down the next day. That's not going to happen. In fact, the MLR probably goes up because we're paying for medications right away. We're just saying as Clover, yes, I'm sure a couple of years down the line I have actuarial studies and all those things to say like, yes, all of this tied together. We all know it takes time. But just as long as you say, you identified it earlier and you manage it earlier for chronic disease, we have so many great therapeutics and not all of them are expensive, but that is in its of itself a good that we're doing. And so that is a powerful aspect of Clover Assistant. Here's a second example. And this is chronic kidney disease, CKD, right? A little -- a very interesting one. And the graph is changing here to the cohort of physicians before they adopted Clover Assistant compared to after adopting Clover Assistant. The other one was about people sort of like identifying disease. This one is about what happens before and then after and doing a little bit of a comparison. The Y-axis here is the GFR, which is a rough approximation of kidney function. So higher is better, higher is better kidney function. What you're seeing here is that at the point where diagnosis occurs and we use CKD Stage III as a useful marker because that's generally when CKD3 is found and when it becomes symptomatic as well. That the same set of doctors are generally finding and diagnosing and identifying CKD3 while the kidney has higher function remaining when they use Clover Assistant, right? And so when we say find things earlier, we don't necessarily mean by age, we mean by disease progression, right? The disease has progressed less but we're finding it sooner in this progression, and we are managing it sooner as progression because it has more kidney function, even though to be clear, it's not perfect kidney function. But if you've got perfect kidney function, you don't have CKD. So obviously, that's not going to go together. But we are finding it earlier and that set of clinicians is finding it earlier when that happens, right? And then you can start managing it, which I showed you on the previous slide. So [ we want to in ] everyone on, if you really believe that's true that finding these and identifying these diseases earlier and then managing them earlier in the chronic state is a good. We're really excited. Hopefully, you're excited about what we can do with Clover Assistant as well. All right. So let's talk a little bit further on our 2023 focus, and I'll wrap up and then we can take some questions. Our goal in 2023 is absolutely on shareholder value. And because we believe at Clover, that shareholder value lines up really well with societal value which lines up really well with patient value, which lines up really well with physician value. Fortunately, our focus on shareholder value means benefits to all of those constituents as well, right? We're a public company, we wrap that all up in shareholder value. Number one, we are prioritizing profitability, absolutely, right? And we are looking at moving towards profitability. We are making sure that we don't look at growth at the expense of profitability. We're aligned towards that, and that is what we want to move towards. Being sustainable in our model allows us to go forward and help as many people as possible. Sustainability and profitability will fund the mission. Second of all, we are pricing our insurance plans. We already did this recently for profitability and the ability to generate margins. And typically, they were priced very much aggressively for growth. We changed that. We're still very strong plans, but we're not out there just completely priced for growth. We are priced now to have make sure we generate the sustainable margins as well. Similarly, within our noninsurance line of business, we are aiming to generate gross profit sooner rather than later, so that it has a contribution to the overall company. SG&A, I talked about that before. When you're focused on growth, sometimes you're not sort of tuning and optimizing. We're not a very old company. We've been around like 10-plus years. There's a lot of places we can tune from all the businesses we've launched and optimizing the core of the business. We want to tune SG&A to make sure that's in the right place for overhead because every dollar we save on SG&A is dollars that can go towards care. And we are managing our capital. We are capital prune. We're by definition, not profitable yet. Otherwise, I wouldn't need point number one but we are very prudently managing our capital to make sure we look at our burn rate. We're reducing that burn rate quarter-over-quarter and making sure that we move towards creating that positive EBITDA so that we can use our cash. Fortunately, we've always talked multiple times about being in a strong liquidity position, and we intend to keep on looking at that, making sure that as we move to profitability that we become a profitable sustainable company. We feel really good about our technology. We feel really good about our differentiation. We feel really good that we're designed for growth. This is our focus now as the last piece of the puzzle to show that we're sustainable. And that creates immense shareholder value and creates value up into the future for our mission as well to help and improve every life. Okay. Well, thank you, everybody, and I'm happy to take some questions if there are any.

Yes. Thank you very much, Andrew. If you've got a question, please raise your hand. We'll come to you with the microphone, and we ask that you speak the question into the microphone for everyone to hear. I think maybe to start off, we could talk about the outlook for 2023 in terms of the guidance you've provided and how you see profitability emerging maybe in certain markets where it's been heading in that direction and the direction you expect it to go up?

Yes, let's talk about profitability. So we issued like some additional guidance yesterday morning. If you look at that, I would paraphrase it as saying that we expect MCR, which is our care ratios and relative to gross margins to improve in our markets. They've been improving for a while that will continue to improve, we expect. We also talked about how we expect revenues to be growing like year-over-year, and we feel good about that, that we are not just absolutely focused on growth. We are focused on sustainable profitable growth. And we emphasize that we actually had negative gross margin above 100% MCRs in the noninsurance business. We have tuned that business. We talked about that last year, where we really think that by focusing on a narrower set of providers, working with them a little bit earlier, a little bit tighter, we can be more efficient and also deliver profitability in that line of business sooner rather than later. So there's nothing -- in any area that's like a silver bullet. But just the focus there where the focus previously was on growth, we feel very good about in terms of our motion towards profitability.

Excellent. Perhaps another question around your ACO business. And moving that to a model where you're seeing more upside rather than upside and downside?

Sure. Yes. Let's talk about that. So there's enormous appetite right now in providers to actually move to value-based care. If you talk to any provider they not be like, oh, now fee-for-service forever. People want to move towards value-based care. And what we're seeing though is it's like what does that progression really look like at widescale. There's a number of health systems and providers who are already good, fantastic. They can always be better, but they're already good. And there's a big set of folks who are kind of sitting on the fence. And I think that we discovered that our model technology-centric services like resonates really well as an on-ramp to value-based care for these folks who are sitting on the fence right now. That's why we saw such massive growth in our ACO business early on. What we're seeing now as well is that there's a different level of sophistication and progression for each of these health systems. And some of them are ready right away to move very quickly. Some of them will take more time, and that's just because they're different institutions. And not all of them are ready for upside downside risk straight away, right? So what we're thinking is it makes sense to have a blended portfolio of offering whereby we can start people off a bit more of a toe in the water, ankle in the water with value-based care, in more upside-only programs then work with them, work with them with our data tools, make sure that they're looking good, making sure that they feel comfortable then moving them and progressing them, graduating them, if you will, into upside downside programs as well a little further along. And I think that will be a better combination and a little bit more nuanced than our previous strategy, which started everybody within upside, downside risk and kind of like, push them into the pool right away, a more progressive gradual version, I think, will actually result in sustainable growth and sustainable profitability in that line of business.

Yes, please. Can we get the microphone up here. Sorry, just a moment.

We'll do it. Otherwise, I can always repeat the question. Hi.

Hi. A question on Clover Assistant.