Computer Age Management Services Limited (543232) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Computer Age Management Services Limited Q1 FY '27 Earnings Conference Call hosted by MUFG Intime. Please note that this conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I now hand the conference over to Mr. Nikunj Seth from MUFG Intime. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Sumit. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Q1 FY '27 Earnings Conference Call of Computer Age Management Services Limited. From the management, we have with us Mr. Anuj Kumar, MD and CEO; Mr. Ram Charan, CFO; and Mr. Anish Sawlani, Head Investor Rations. Before we proceed to the opening remarks, I would like to give a small disclaimer that this conference may contain certain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties. A detailed disclaimer has been published in the investor presentation. Now I would like to hand over the conference to Mr. Anuj Kumar for his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Nikunj, thank you very much. Good morning to everyone. Appreciate everyone joining the earnings call for the first quarter FY '27. So I presume all of you would have read the press release and you would have downloaded a copy of the presentation. So I'll just quickly jump into the details. Just given the backdrop of the times we are in, I think it was a solid quarter from us. You've seen that EBITDA grew over 18% year-on-year to get to INR 183 crores. This is our highest ever number. And despite the challenging market conditions, I think it did 2 things. One, despite the fact that AUM did not grow as much as it traditionally would have grown, we were able to post an 18% increase in EBITDA, 17% in PAT. Also the fact that this perhaps now almost puts in the background all the pricing adjustments of the last year because you know that we had dropped from similar levels to about 42% operating EBITDA and climb back in the next 4 to 5 quarters back to 46%. So to that extent, 46.4% operating EBITDA looks like a very nice number. EBITDA margin expansion, 270 basis points. This all of you know from 43.7% a year back to 46.4%. We are now heading towards -- our highest was a shade above 47%. So we are heading in that direction. And again, I would say pretty sound just given the times that the last 2 years, AUM expansion has not been as much as you would expect. And the fact that the pricing adjustment, the onetime pricing adjustment is a bit of the backdrop, but not very recent, but 1 year old. Operating revenue grew 11.5% to INR 395 crores. Within this, the 2 components are the MF revenue. The MF revenue actually -- absolute MF revenue grew 10%. Asset-based revenue grew about a little over 11%. But if you see the non-MF businesses, they grew collectively over 28%. And I would say that I'm personally pretty happy with the progress of non-MF because you know that we've not done significantly margin dilutive stuff anywhere in the portfolio. We've taken bets. Those bets have paid off. I think a lot of the bets have paid off. Pay has paid off significantly. Alternatives despite all the competition and new players who entered in the last many years and continue to enter. We grew in the mid-20s. KRA, which is the third large non-MF contributor, obviously, did not grow given the backdrop of the price adjustment that the industry has taken. But I think from the second quarter onwards things will start looking good in that territory also. So on a blended basis, 11.2% MF revenue growth, 28% plus non-MF growth. We expect, therefore, that non-MF growth will stay blended upwards of 20%. We are now in the kind of -- we've had half of the second quarter done, and we have some view of what will happen in the second quarter. So we believe that for the year, overall blended non-MF revenue will certainly be 20%. If you're lucky, it could come at 22%, 23%. MF revenue, we would like it to grow at least 12%. Blended, we are expecting about a 13% overall revenue growth, about a 16% EBITDA growth. So it seems to be on that track. And from a broad basis, if you see the growth levers, what are the growth levers? Like I said, payments, we started the cards business seems to be picking up very well. In AIF, the base has grown quite well. New logo acquisition has been sound. CAMS WealthServ has done well, continues to add heft, which you may have read in the presentation. Also the fact now that as far as GIFT City is concerned, you would have read that we have in principle approval to start a KRA operation. We are also in the process of applying for a payment service provider license. And we haven't applied that because there's a process related to the application. But once we have a wholesome offering of base RTA, fund accounting, KRA for which we have in principle, and this KRA just does not apply to capital market entities in GIFT is a far broader application. And then for payments, you know that over a period of time, these outbound funds are bigger attracting money. I would say it's just the beginning about 2 quarters old. But over a period of time, as I think a lot of -- there's a lot of press on portfolio rebalancing and trying overseas markets, a lot of people are adding all these things. That trend should deepen the SIB kind of concept and overseas investment through GIFT should deepen. All of that can drive the payments business also. So those growth drivers are in place, and I think they're doing well. From a new logo perspective, you know that we've taken 6 AMCs live last year. We've taken live this year, which is AlphaGrep. We have 3 large installations, which should be live from now up to the end of the year, which is Carnelian, ASK and Neo and 1 or 2 of the follow ones also, but those are the salient ones. So all of that should play out in the coming months. Go to the next. From an MF perspective, therefore, you would have seen that AUM grew just under 15% year-on-year to be about INR 56 lakh crores. Of course, the month of July has been a lot better. April, May, June were muted months. In July, we've been much better. We've kind of grazed close to INR 60 lakh, but haven't got there yet, but we should get there. Market share stayed at about 67.2%. I think, again, from a foundational perspective, if you look at other growth metrics, so what happened to equity AUM grew ahead of market last year at 16% and some change, we had 17.6%. Equity net sales grew ahead of industry growth. Live SIP counts grew ahead of industry. So, if I just took those 3, which is gross equity AUM growth, equity net sales growth and live SIP account growth, I think that sums up the equity picture because 60%, 65% of the MF asset revenue comes from there. So those are again, those are great foundational metrics which have been playing out for the last maybe about a couple of years, but happy to kind of share with you that all of that continues to do well. And even in tough times where the markets have bottomed out, peaked back again and then went all the way back again in April, May, June, the SIP collections continue to hold which is a great peak into the resilience and nerve and strength of the Indian investor, the retail investor. So, this number holds in Q1 at just short of INR 60,000 crores. And again, from an industry collections growth perspective for SIP has outperformed the industry. Similarly for the unique investor base. So, I could not have compiled a better set of what I would say are foundational enough metrics all in front of you that all of this has do well. On the growth front, I must also point out apart from GIFT, which is GIFT retail, very formative, very early, so I will not start using objective to describe the growth. All I would say is we have started with the first 10,000 investors, we are nudging INR 750 crores of AUM. But like I said, given the dip in the market 1, 1.5 years back, it was about being in metal ETFs and ETF Today, it's about using GIFT City intelligently to do some overseas investing. I think that part has started. I'm also very happy with the SIF segment where if you were talking to you in the beginning of August last year, we did not have a single launch. The first launch happened in early October. So, it's just a 10-month old story. 11 unique SIFs have launched, 3 or 4 more will launch. And this segment has done well, just look at the numbers, about INR 1,000 crores. I mean, there's not much difference between net and gross sales in the first year. But if I just look at it as a net sale metric, about INR 1,000 crores of net sales metric every month. So, it's accumulated to about just in excess of INR 12,000 crores now, almost 50,000 investors. And when you look at the base of investors in India, and this is a slightly more wholesome product because you allowed leverage, you can short the market, et cetera. You know all of that stuff. I think both GIFT and SIF should open up as new asset classes, which will grow into meaningful franchises for us. Someday, I should be talking about them with the same energy and as I talk about alternatives, but that may come after some years. But I would say just a great start to this story. I spoke about AlphaGrep and the 3 other AMCs, which are about to launch in the coming part of the year. I should also name Oakland, sorry. So, ASK, Carnelian, Oaklane, which are expected to -- they will definitely go live before December. So, I think from a new AMC buying from insurance from the new logo perspective, we have some of the best names, the best names, which will start work with us in addition to the 6 that went live last year. Go to the next. Beyond MF, I think I spoke about this, so I don't want to repeat 28% plus year-on-year revenue growth. Non-MF revenue just getting to about 15%. I'm hoping this will certainly be 16% by the end of the year, but we'll watch this closely. Pay, of course, did the best, grew just short of 70% year-on-year, largely riding on cards. And cards is a business that we want to grow, but don't want to scale too much. And we'll be intelligent about scaling because it's a high bank this kind of business where your margins will remain limited. The retail recurring, that kind of business, it is a better business to do, but we started cards about a year back. Alternatives, I said, grew mid-20s AUM overall cross INR 32 lakh crores. We won 50 new mandates, several new logos. So that part did well. KRA was a bit of a story in the first quarter had to be like that. So, I don't know whether your expectation was any different, but we knew that there was a rate revision starting 1st April about 29%, 30% rates down. The market was also slightly subdued. So, it was a slightly revenue down quarter. We expect that from the second quarter, things will look -- well, better. We will certainly look better in KRA. So, as KRA starts firing back, you will have pay alternatives in KRA, all 3 firing on the non-MF side, MF, SIF and GIFT City Retail firing on the MF side. So that should be a good combination if all of this happens in the second quarter. Rep's Bima Central expanded user base, I still don't think it is meaningful revenue yet, but we are waiting for that day. I think retail acceptance continues to scale quite well. And I do want to talk to you about Centro where I think we've stated a little in the past, but not too much that we started building this capability in-house just given the fact that retail consumer consent across our businesses, whether it is MF, KRA, CRA and pension or insurance repository is kind of a controls consenting capability that we had to have in-house at some time between CAMS and Think, we built this out. Happy to let you know that we will have our first signed contracts shortly. We've started work in about 7 or 8 clients. So, some in the capital markets, some in invest markets. This is not just a capital markets or financial services story. I will not make it a big deal right now. We have early wins. We are very happy. I think hopefully, when we come back to you, I will have something meaningful to I'll share with you in a quarter from now. But I just wanted to mention that you may see some press on some stuff on our website, et cetera, don't be surprised. And you've been seeing this over the last 2, 3 months. You will just see that in a more accurate manner. Don't ask me for revenue numbers because it's too early for us to start projecting numbers. It's just a good start to a new thing. On the new platform from a re-architecture AI perspective, again, I think you read stuff that we put out. So, you're aware of the we have done. But on the transaction acceptance, which is basically the big hairy Gorilla that we have to take live because that is about transaction acceptance. It's all the sum total of the external work that we do with the markets. A lot of the other work in the platform happens internally, but there is the work we do with acceptance of transactions coming in of monies coming in of KYCs and then a lot of other stuff with the exchanges, depositories, sellers, banks, all of that. That's now beginning to go live step by step in August, September. We believe we would have sunset the entire transaction acceptance part of the platform by the end of the financial year. And then other things in terms of data warehouse, CAMS Lens, our revamped KRA offering, stuff on EPYC and deep fakes, all of that is now live. I'd also mentioned in some of our meetings that physical transaction acceptance is now going through. We have a capability. I can convert the entire thing to AI-led transaction acceptance 100% today if we wanted. We are not doing it today because there's a risk in kind of just blindly doing it. So out of our 8 transaction types, 4 are live. When I come back to you and talk to you in November, all will be live. And within those, it's our choice on how fast we want to go. So we've converted about 10% of our gross payload into AI-based acceptance. We just read the firms, go to our database, do cross referencing and then just access the firm. I still have a manual checker, but this 10% will scale to 100% acceptance at the maker level in the next 12 months. We will deal with the checker at some point in time. But again, very happy with this bit of AI-led automation that's happened in the base. So I think one of the things we said to you is that we will show definitive -- although we don't quote revenue per headcount or transactions per headcount as standard metrics, and we're not inventing them yet. But average headcount at the enterprise level, it's a simple thing for you to measure and not keep looking for the number. We'll give you that number, and that number is expected to have a 4% to 5% down impact in the financial year, which has already started from 1st April onwards. We are about 2%, 3% down already. So we'll demonstrate that. And I think over the next 3 or 4 years as this platform settles down. you will just keep seeing meaningful impacts in that area. What else? Let's go to the next. Okay. So what I'll do is I'll hand over to Raman Charan to take you briefly through the financials, and then we can come back and talk about whatever questions you have. Ram?

Thanks, Anuj. Anuj has already gone through the highlights in terms of numbers. So I won't repeat the numbers. I'll just add a few points, which might kind of up the understanding on these numbers. You all saw a revenue growth of 11.5%. It was actually split into asset-based revenue and non-asset-based revenue. The non-asset-based revenue, we have said is not dependent on the asset growth assets and that's we're showing it separately. There are 4, 5 components to it. So the decline in the quarter-on-quarter was predominantly because of OP reduction and some sort of transaction reduction. So this is something that will not keep pace with the AUM growth. But however, from an asset-based revenue perspective, we are back to where we generally guide, which is there is no yield decline as such in the current quarter. Obviously, mix played some impact on this. But even otherwise, there has been no decline in yields quarter-on-quarter. The biggest question that we had over the course of last year was your yields be stable? I think for the last 2, 3 quarters, we have been demonstrating that the yields are within acceptable range. And this year, there have actually been no depletion in quarter-on-quarter. From an overall cost perspective, we mentioned in the last earnings call, but again, we are reiterating that the numbers here, generally the appraisal impact, which is salary increase for the employees, we have deferred by a quarter. So what should have been effective from April 1st will be effective from July 1st. So you will see an additional cost impact coming in the current quarter, which is not in the earlier quarter, depending on how revenue ramps anywhere close to percentage of overall revenue. But having said that, I think from an overall cost perspective, at the beginning of the year, I think when people asked for an estimate, we said that if we keep the overall cost increase year-on-year basis to less than 10%, that will be our target. I'm happy to say for the last quarter, on a year-on-year basis, the cost increase has been less than 7% excluding depreciation. And the increase has been almost negligible on a quarter-on-quarter basis. So this is expected to sustain, as Anuj was mentioning about going live of various react modules. We expect that this productivity will be sustained. In fact, on a headcount basis, we've had a net reduction in headcount on a quarter-on-quarter basis of more than 200, on a year-on-year basis, about 85. So the productivity improvements are continuing and will continue going forward. And this will keep a kind of control over the costs that we are incurring. From a non-MF I think we saw the numbers. Pay has seen extremely strong in growth, 67% growth. AF has been very strong in terms of 25% growth. And KRA because of the price impact that we are seeing has shown -- has not shown much of a growth, in fact, has gone down year-on-year. But if you normalize that for going forward increase in revenue, I think we are well on track for this 20% plus growth in non-mutual fund. In terms of cash and cash equivalent, you would have seen that we ended the quarter with a very comfortable INR 980 crores almost cash balance, and the Board has declared a INR 2.5 interim dividend for the Q1. So all pointers are looking good. We are seeing asset growth come back to a large extent in the last -- in the current quarter, yields being stable, non-mutual fund growth on track and cost control measures in place. So that is a summary of the financials. I'll now hand it back to the moderator, Sumit for questions.

[Operator Instructions] Next question is from the line of Swarnabha Mukherjee from 360 ONE Capital.

I have 3 questions. First is on the growth, sir, you mentioned broad expectation is around 13% kind of a blended growth from the top line point of view. Just wanted to understand that in this how -- what would be your expectation for AUM growth and yield compression? Because -- I mean, I just wanted more color on the fact that given that we have several large clients where internally also the schemes are quite large in size. What is the downside possibility?

I think we lost Swarnabha.

The next question is from the line of Devesh Agarwal from IIFL Capital.

Congratulations on good set of numbers. Sir, my first question would be just to get a clarity, this year, how many AMCs are up for renewal?

So this -- as we said last time, Devesh, there are a few midsized AMCs up for renewal. A couple have been concluded and 2 more are in discussion. So that's the score for the current year.

And whatever the impact would have been for the ones which have concluded are already in 1Q pricing?

Yes, they are already in 1Q pricing. As we said earlier, the impact because of this is expected to be very muted.

Right, sir. Sir, secondly, if we see the KRA business, as you rightly pointed out, there was a pricing reset that went live from 1st of April that led to the impact. But if you see the same for CDSL, the impact was significantly lower. And the reason that they highlighted was that there were the fetch volumes were higher as well as there were some incremental revenues which were allowed by SEBI. So, did we not have this benefit as an industry for us?

So Devesh, yes, interesting point. You know that the pricing structure has changed and some of -- I don't want to take you into too much technical detail, but some of the fetch which used to be free has now got priced. So we're getting into that. The opportunity is the same as for them, it is the same for us. From a blend perspective, our revenue is still about 70%, 75% MF and about 25%, 30% non-MF, which is BP and broking. My estimate is that for them, this mix will be very different. It will probably be just the reverse, the segment from which they derive core revenue. So we've seen the results, and we are getting into it, and we can have a conversation later. But the pricing components, obviously, it is not that the IOP Phase 1 fresh applies only to them and not to us, it applies to both. Some of the mix would have been different. Markets have been muted. Account opening is not of the same level that it used to be, let's say, 1, 1.5 years back. So, you have to get into the depth of this and what the contrast is, we will explain it to you. But at first side, the segments from which they derive fresh revenue and from which we derive the segments are slightly different.

Understood, sir. On a overall basis, on non-MF business, what is the margin that we are delivering in Q1 and the expected margin for FY 2027?

So, if you recollect last quarter, we kind of came to around 17 percent plus margin. But the first quarter, we have seen the KRA revenue drop a little, right? KRA a high contributor to the overall non-MF margin. So we are at 13 now. I think this is probably 1 quarter impact as the revenue recovers and the losses in the other parts of the repository and account aggregator reduced. We are confident of getting it if not 20%, at least close to 20% by the end of the year. I would kind of say that it will not be kind of 20%, but you should expect probably 17% kind of a margin.

Right, sir. And sir, you did mention that SIF is now gaining traction. Could you just help us refresh what exactly is the economics in SIF for us? And how do we charge?

See, the economics in SIF are that you take a scheme, you slot it in an asset type, if it is equity-led, which most of it is, then it's an equity scheme for us and the same rate supply. The same rate supply that the AMC does. So to that extent, you can think of it as just MF AUM scaling. We have some cost because it is supposed to be set up as a separate segregated schema. You would see on the website also that we don't show it and mutual funds don't show it as part of your MF portfolio. It's shown as a separate portfolio. So it's some costs. So think of it this way that at about INR 10,000 crores, INR 12,000 crores, we've already taken the cost of setting SIF as a separate schema for all the 11 SIFs. That cost is now in the base. Any scaleup will help us defray. The pricing will be identical to MF price.

The next question is from the line of Uday Pai from Investec.

Just wanted to get the sense on employee headcount. You mentioned that we have seen 2%, 3% reduction on a Q-o-Q basis. And for the full year, you are expecting 4% to 5% reduction. So does this benefit our margin very significantly in Q4 because the full impact of that will come in Q4? Already you have done very well on Q1. Generally, it's a low margin quarter. So how do we think about employee cost on a quarter-on-quarter basis? And for the next year as well, is there any further benefits that you expect on the headcount?

So I'll just give you a bit of perspective and then I'll get to the point. Base automation has continued to make sure that we run the enterprise at constant headcount, okay? So in the last 10 years, our enterprise headcount is more or less constant. In this year, we've stated, if you take FY '27 that we will drop enterprise headcount by about 5%. That's just taking away backfilling of frontline positions, all those tasks which are getting automated. They were getting automated in the past, too. But given the re-architecture program, the speed of automation will be faster. So therefore, as progressively we are able to drive this productivity, you will see some diminution in employee cost, some in infra cost because it's basically a seat in headcount takeout. Do keep in mind that a lot of this also means that we are hiring expensive AI resources and expensive automation resources or certainly backfilling those because you can't do without backfilling. So don't do your math, assuming that 500 people and 500 seats will completely go away. Yes, they will go away, but there will be some offsetting influence of adding new talent. So, the net, you will not see a 5% cost drop in those 2 heads. You may see, let's say, a 3%, 3.5% cost drop. That's perhaps what you should expect.

The next question is from the line of Sanketh Godha from Avendus Spark.

Sir, again on costs, maybe the question is on employee cost because it seems to be the key driver of your EBITDA margin expansion trajectory going ahead. So, if I look at the data last year, full year, you had -- and if I exclude the one-off labor impact, then you were almost at INR 470 crores of employee cost last year. Given headcount number will keep on coming down as you go and more automation or AI mode of doing the work, is it fair to say that even if you assume annual escalation and probably fill with the little more talented or skilled employees, this number should grow at a low -- very low single-digit rate for the next few years in that sense, and that will be the key driver of the EBITDA margin?

So Sanketh, I think in last call also, we said the same thing. We'll be kind of endeavor to keep the employee cost growth to around 5%, including the appraisal number. Bear in mind that while there is a productivity increase and automation that happens, the other part of the business, which is your risk, compliance, software development, et cetera, they will still require some investment on people, right? So, it will not be just a one-sided reduction in one side and other side no freeing up happening. So, I think it will be a balanced kind of an approach, but our target is to keep it around 5% employee cost increase on a year-on-year basis.

Understood, sir. The reason why I'm asking is that you have employee cost and you have the lever from other businesses showing a better margin trajectory, which you already told that it will go from 17% to 20% probably in the current year and maybe it will further expand in the next year. So, if I look at in combo last year, you were at 45. Is it fair to say that -- maybe you already told it, but fair to say that more -- assuming no meaningful pressure, the normalized margins will be at least 150 to 200 basis points compared to currently what we are reporting?

So Sanketh, directionally, maybe yes. Do remember that, A, as Ram pointed out, since we deferred increments by a quarter, you did not see the base impact in the first quarter. You see the base impact in the second quarter. But if I talk of the year, it makes no difference in which quarter I make the increments. It will show up in the year's trajectory. That's point number one. Secondly, also think of all investments in technology to be not just people. You are seeing -- you're reading the same articles I'm reading, that manufacturers of hardware and data center services are getting expensive because of hyperscalers getting a lot of demand from the AI-led segment. So, there is some cost expansion there. The puts and takes, therefore, are that when I take all of this together, we have stated in the past that you can expect about a 1% margin expansion from our side. Can we get to 1.5%? I would say yes. I mean let's just watch it closely. We hope we get there, but directionally, you are right. We will still say that 1% we are very confident of, we may get to 1.5%.

Understood, sir. And maybe on the employee count number, if you can call out that number in the current quarter compared to the last year? And second is on Think360.AI, we increased the stake. So what is our current ownership? And how do we see the ownership to play out in Think360 eventually?

Think360, the transaction had happened in 2023, both the founders and us have the option to expand shareholding at the end of the third and the end of the fourth year. So, the founders obviously will move at some time, like all founders. And what you're seeing is expansion in ownership is the first tranche of our call of their put getting executed. You will see the second tranche of this get executed about a year from now. I won't -- I'm not sure about which month, but it will certainly happen in about 12 months' time. So that's one thing that you will see happen. We may still choose because it's an award-winning company with a lot of IP-related work in segments where CAMS has not been present. We may continue running the company separately and may never sunset the name. That's a decision we still have to take. So, we may not -- because they work in the NBFC and fintech segment. We would not like to merge it with CAMS at any point in time. I just want to run it separately. But that's on the ownership. So, on first point which is employee count...

So, you should look at our headcount currently to be just shy of 8,300 for the company. On a year-on-year basis, we are down around 85 in headcount. And on a quarter-on-quarter basis, we are around 225 down on headcount.

The next question is from the line of Madhukar from JPMorgan.

Congratulations on good numbers. Sir, first on this employee cost expense, you gave a guidance of 5% growth. That is like for what time period? Is it like a medium-term guidance? So, that's the first thing. Second, on the KRA revenues, one of the other companies in this business pointed out of an additional way that you can charge your customers. I was not clear whether you are also charging that additional fee? Or is it that sort of different players are adopting a different revenue model over here right now and which is a little unclear how this is changing. So I'm a little confused about that. So if you could clarify on both these things.

Sure. So let me answer the second question first. When the price contraction in KRA was proposed, that was largely proposed so that expansion in demat accounts and mutual fund portfolios does not get constrained because of any single cost line, and it was the attempt of the industry to bring it to more rational limits. You know that for things like Choti SIP, et cetera, the price were rationalized. So this part had happened. At that time, there is one component of KRA where any participant, any market intermediary can come to us and check whether, let's say, it's my case, Anuj Kumar is present in one of the KRAs or not. He's still not downloading the information. He's just asking that question. So these kind of things used to be free at one time and the new dispensation, it was believed that since the KRA industry is taking a large haircut, you should be allowed to charge for these kind of things also. So just to make it clear, there are no asymmetries in the charging methodology for KRAs. There are no asymmetries. Everybody charges uniformly and for the same utility. And largely, the prices will be same. I mean, it is not disallowed not to do any private deals with large consumers. So there will be 5 or 10 or 15 large deals in the industry. But other than that, it is more or less uniform pricing. So whatever the other guys told you applies to us also, like we said at the beginning of this call that we also want to go back and check because we don't believe it's such a large impact item at all. It's not a large impact item. This was the first quarter of invoicing. But just to give you a short answer, all of us are allowed to charge in the same way. On the first part of your question, Madhukar, you asked whether 5% expansion is for a definite period. I'll let Ram take it.

So this is basically a simple math. I see for the last year, the cost was around INR 500 crores. So what we said is for the year, the time frame is a year. So end of the year, we will try to keep it and increase to be between INR 25 crores and INR 30 crores. So this is a steep order given that incremental impact could itself be more than that, but that's where the productivity increases and the rationalization comes. So to answer your question, it is end of the year, year-on-year, your cost increase should be around 5% for employees.

And for a more medium-term guidance, like if I were to ask you for a period of FY '28, FY '29, do you think this is a sustainable number on an overall sort of -- so for employee costs and even the other expenses, if you could give us some color whether you could continue to sustain this kind of efficiency levels going forward?