Container Corporation of India Limited (CONCOR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Vidya, moderator for the conference call today. Welcome to CONCOR Q3 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this conference is recorded. I would now like to hand over the floor to Ms. Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.

Yes, thank you. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Q3 FY '23 Earnings Call of Container Corporation of India. We have the management today being represented by Mr. V. Kalyana Rama, Chairman and Managing Director. I'll hand over the floor to him for his initial remarks, post which we'll open up the floor for Q&A. Over to you, sir.

Yes. Thank you, Bhoomika. Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for being with us for the post-results conference call. This quarter, we had got a mixed bag with us. It's a little difficult in the rail sector. We had, in the quarter, some numbers dropping. Margins, there was a little pressure on margins. In domestic, we did well. And overall, there is a bit pressure on margin because domestic margins are definitely not as well as in margins. As we all know, because within India, our logistics are very competitive logistics, operating with Ro-Ro. So the overall margin figures have come down a little bit. But the good thing is domestic growth is continuously there as we've seen last year, 30%-plus growth. This year, we are seeing the same growth continuing, 30% plus. Again, the difficulty in this scenario is that we are having now resource for China. We are not able to add new containers, new rigs because of some geopolitical problems, which restricted us from importing containers from China. So even though we got good demand for domestic containers, we got stuck up at 37,000 containers. So we are running a program to develop container manufacturers and Aatma Nirbhar Bharat. As all of you know that we leased a lot of container manufacturing orders, 18,000 containers and others we released. But as all of us know, any ecosystem to develop or the time lag I used there, an ecosystem development that we [indiscernible]. So I mean the number of courses [indiscernible] will buy out of 18,000. Although they're supposed to get almost, as per the schedule given in the tenders, we have to get 9,000, but these things are expected. The demand -- on the demand side, if I see, and how many more containers are required at this moment, it is something like 120,000. So that is 7,000 today we are owning. So we can go on now around 60,000 containers in all when there is a reduction. And then we can see we are well utilized fully well. So that sort of demand is there. So the overall scenario is very positive. When you look at the macro picture, a very positive outlook for Indian logistics companies. And particularly for your company, CONCOR, it is very, very bright future there. In the next 4, 5 years, we are expanding a lot of growth in domestic. And the important part which we all of us here should know, the domestic revenue, it used to be 20% of total revenues in the year 2015 and '16, and that was traditional 80-20 mix of the total revenue. Today, it has come in this quarter to 65-35, and it will further grow. So domestic, how to protect our margins, what we are doing is we are adding the value-added services, very positive to the domestic market. FMLM is already there, which we are continuously trying to increase our numbers in the FMLM side. So now we are going to give that, including providing FMLM along with the transportation, we are now going to do that to again create a solution. And that, we want to bring into the domestic sector. And we are offering this company data solutions to some of the major industries. Like the government side, FCI, we are providing data solution service. For these industries, we are providing the data solutions service. From business to government, we do the service network. So we are providing a data solution there. So our rating is to increase this. So for that, now we are trying to add more resources. We are now trying to add LNG trucks, the issues that were very active consideration. So we will be experimenting with the LNG trucks first at our major hub advance, and then we will be expanding it to all the retailers. So all these new things, we are bringing it to act because the demand is there in domestic and also to encourage more and more domestic traffic into containers and to add the value-added services to make it a complete winner solution, which will increase our margins. But the overall margin pressure will not be too much. As I mentioned to you last time, as domestic increases, they will be different in the [ virtual ] margin, which I think this time, every analyst is -- maybe all of you have sort of calculated and even at least commenting on that is that overall margin has come down by around 200 to 300 basis points, the reason is that. And in domestic, the bulk cement which we started, and we started commercial ramps during this quarter, is picking up very well. Until to date, we almost completed 50,000 tonnes of domestic bulk cement. The market is huge. As of -- again, the resource constraint, we are not going aggressive into this. As soon as we will add some more containers, we are working on that to add some good number of containers in the next quarter itself. So as it happens, I will let all of you know how much we added and how we added. Now to give any details on that will be too premature, so I'm not sharing anything on that with you guys. But once we add, there is a huge demand in bulk cement. And bulk cement, it's a complete business solution model, and we are working on that. As of now, FMLM, we are not into that sector, but we will add FMLM into that sector next couple of years. So this is the domestic scenario. At the EXIM side, yes, we have -- after seeing offering our share -- drop in share in particularly 2 ports: one, Mundra port, in imports, we got our share drop; and in Pipavav, the export side, our share had dropped. We analyzed and now introduced new schemes to bulk up our offer. And the scheme on the import side is 1 plus 1. And on the export side, obviously, that export will be swallowed up, more imports and the MT repositionings. And all of -- all our employee version or scheme of 50% is showing and it is giving good results to us. Now with 1 plus 1 scheme which we give, with every 1 extra import load given, we are giving them 1 free transport of MT repositioning up for to in the land and a discount in repositioning [indiscernible]. So this scheme in December has given us very good results. So when I see December month, it's separate from the quarter. In December, our volumes picked up at all the ports, Mundra, Pipavav. Both our share started going up. And I'm expecting this trend will continue because in January also, we are seeing the same traction continuing in the ports. So we are hopeful that started working and that this scheme, it generated a lot of interest among all the -- all our customers. So we are hopeful that we will be getting back our share, which -- and as a lot of you know, we will not be going for price war to get any share. It's going to reduce our margin. That is our principle and we stand by that. So without -- we're now giving away the margins. We are now trying to come back with the various scheme, and let me tell you all the various schemes are net positive various schemes for the company, for CONCOR. That is how we designed. It is a win-win situation for both the customer and for the company. So this in EXIM, Q4, we're expecting that we will be able to get back some of the large share and we will be able to take good numbers into Q4. In revenue side, as you see, because domestic, we did very well, overall revenue, we are positive. And the PAT side, we are positive. Yes, in absolute numbers, we are positive. But on the percentage-wise margins, when we look at it, yes, as I have already explained, there is a dip in the percentage margin. So as the scenario -- as I said, macro scenario is very good, very bright future. So I don't see any problems. And some of the other important interesting parameters which many of you ask, let me give you those numbers. Double stack, they are doing very well. We already crossed 3,000 double-stack trains in this year for the 9 months. And this year, we are expecting to cross more than 4,000 trains in that regard. We are doing double hub. Swarupganj has really picked up at the second half. So almost all the JNPT volumes, we are bringing and doing the double stack. And Kathuwas is doing extremely well. The double stack side, there's a good growth. And as planned, things are moving up, great traction. Because of the geopolitical constraint and the increased demand in the railway sector, we are not getting the [ wheeler taxes ]. So we now started working on our only 2 sources, and we are establishing supply chains. And we are hopeful that these supply chains will get established in 2, 3 months' time. It's not very long gestation supply chain establishment. So with that, we are hopeful we'll be able to start adding rigs from the first quarter of the next financial year. So this year, our program of adding around 45 to 48 rigs. But really, even that is showing us the -- and we are under severe constraint to meet all that demand. On EXIM, we are losing percentage. But today, the position is that our rigs are not available to meet the demand from the agreement of the domestic. I already told you about the domestic containers. Equipment, same issue, [ incremental ] stackers. Again, because of the geopolitical problem, we are not able to import from China. Indian manufacturers are not able to meet the demand. So we are working out various methods. It's premature to share with you at this moment what are the strategies. But as and when we were able to finalize that we get, we'll definitely share with you the details of how we did this. We are working on increasing our handling machines, containers, rigs. And I'm sure in the next quarter itself, we will be able to find solutions so that for the next financial year, we are positioned very well to make an increased demand, increasing demand and all the expected demand without losing any customer and maintaining the customer satisfaction with our motto of customer value. Thank you. You can start the question and answer, please.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Atul Tiwari from Citigroup.

Sir, could you share the originating EXIM volumes and domestic volumes?

So for Q3, the originating EXIM volume was [ 65,107 ] TEU, and the domestic volume was 109,479 TEU, so [ 357,456 ] TEUs.

Okay, sir. And sir, it looks like that the decline in the originating volume on the agreement side was almost like 15% year-on-year, and you did refer to some loss of market share. So what would be current market share on the EXIM side? And can you give some more color on who is gaining market share in the industry? And you did refer to some measures that you have taken without loss of margin. So how does that work? How do you like gain back market share without seeing some margins? So any color on that would be useful.

Tiwari, I already told you, in the total market share we last -- over the last financial year, if I look at the 9 months of the year, it's 2.84% -- or 2.84 million tonnes, that is in million tonnes. So the market share in the EXIM, we lost around 4%. It was 62.7%, it has come down to 58.3% when I look at all. In this -- there are 2 factors in this, which I repeatedly tell you guys that in JNPT, there is short-lead traffic, which we are not [ interested ]. So if I leave out only the traffic, where there are no margins at all, our share increased. Our share increased at JNPT, we have gone up by 3% from 76.3% to 79.7%, that's 80% what we used to do. Mundra, we lost a lot of volume. Last, we have come down from 45% to 38%. And then [ Kotawa ] also, the network, both import/export together, we lost percentage. Now in import side, I already explained what scheme we are giving, are giving 1 plus 1. After a threshold of import volume for any additional import load, the shipping that you made, I will be allowing 1 MT free transport from port to inter-land or discounted transport within terminal [ debt ]. When we do the schemes, we do it net positive scheme. Understand what is net positive, Tiwari?

Yes. Yes, sir.

So when it becomes a net positive, there is no loss on us.

The next question comes from Amit Dixit from Edelweiss (sic) [ ICICI Securities ].

I have a couple of questions. The first one is on the margin trajectory. You mentioned that the domestic revenue would be 35% in the future as we grow further. So can you share with us the margin trajectory? Usually, our margins have been like...

We have -- testing our margins, yes? But as and when domestic -- domestic margins, we work around 18%. And in EXIM, we work with the margins of almost [ 180% ]. So when the domestic volume grows and domestic numbers keep growing and growing, so there's a little bit pressure on the total margin. In absolute numbers, it will increase. But as a percentage, well, you should see the margins will be coming up. Our top line will be growing quicker than our bottom line.

Okay. Got it. The second question is on the MT running cost, if you can share for this quarter between EXIM and domestic port?

MT running cost?

Yes, sir.

MT running cost for the quarter 3 is EXIM, 36 -- INR 31 crores; domestic, INR 97 crores.

The next question comes from Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

Sir, when it comes to the employee cost, can you help us understand where is the increase Q-o-Q? The one-off in employee costs or the system [indiscernible]?

The employee cost, whenever there is increase, there is definitely a one-off benefit we pass on to our employees. Due to our own price, because now our -- at first, we thought we are -- I think we'd be the best lean and the lean company in the large sector, whether you compare it with anybody. So the employee cost increase is because of basic -- they increased that NDA increase, what happens, that comes over the quarter-on-quarter, they will be increasing. So every quarter, there is NDA increase and basically 3% increases for everyone. Achal, that increase will be there. And last quarter, we have given a good incentive to all our employees. So that incentive also is there in this. So there's 2 things: our benefit is the incentive to the employees; the other thing is the regular increase of basic goods.

Got it. Would you be able to quantify how much was the increase then?

Yes, these are too small numbers for the analysts to quantify. It doesn't get any real impact on the total figure, sir. Employee cost increase, what is the increase you are seeing, you tell me? How much increase you have seen the 9 months? What is the increase given to the employees in 9 months?

Sorry for interrupting you, sir, there is background noise from your line. Can you just disconnect your line and can back in the queue, sir?

Am I audible now?

Yes, yes.

Yes, yes, it's 3%. Okay. Sorry for...

Why is the employee benefit cost, do you know what -- how much, by absolute numbers, the employee benefit cost increase in 9 months?

Understood. Sir, any clarification on the other income, which is at INR 113 crores? It's up 80% Y-o-Y, sir.

Yes. Other income, we have income from the deposits on investment which we get and then the rental income and the dividend we get from subsidiaries. So there is always some variation from quarter-to-quarter. So that is the reason some dividends we have got in this quarter and some rental income increases there, on this account, there is an increase in the other income. And overall, 9 months [indiscernible]...

Understood. And just a clarification, sir, you said 18% EBIT -- 18% margin for domestic and 26% for EXIM. Was that at EBITDA level, EBIT level, sir?

Yes. That's right.

It was at EBIT level, sir?

EBIT level, EBIT level.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Ashish Shah from Centrum Broking.

Sir, my question is on the EBIT margin for the EXIM business. So you did say that in December, we have introduced certain schemes, and they would be margin accretive or at least they wouldn't deplete the margin. Then why would the margin in Q3 would be lower than, let's say, the previous margins? Is it only because of the decline in the volume or there could be some other reason?

You are saying EXIM volume and EXIM margin separately or overall margin?

EXIM margin, sir. When I look at the EXIM EBIT margins for the segment, EXIM margin, sir.

Overall margin you are talking of, EBIT margin, isn't it?

EXIM margin, sir, EXIM. Hello? Yes, sir, EXIM margin.

About your numbers, maybe I have these numbers, what you are talking of?

Sir, in the second quarter, we had EBIT margin of 25.2% for the EXIM segment. In the third quarter, we have 23.3%. In the first quarter, it was 24.4%. So I'm referring to the -- absolute EBIT is INR 295 crores for the third quarter, whereas it was around INR 320 and INR 330 for the first and the second quarters.

So in the EXIM rate, in the EBIT margins, the one factor which affected us is the increase in the [ running ], which happened in this quarter. And that dropped to volume. So we lost some of the long-lead traffic which we are carrying, and they were -- at these costs, we don't lose much of traffic because there's always a competition. So the competition comes only on the West Coast. So West Coast is long-read traffic. So there is a slight delay. So there's this -- you are talking of INR 37 crores.

Right, sir. Got it, sir. Sir, secondly, just a little bit on the CapEx numbers. So how much we would have done for the 9-month period? And what would be the CapEx target for this year and possibly maybe next year as well?

CapEx, there are constraints. I think I talked there lengthy about the constraints what we are facing, isn't it? So the CapEx program, a lot of CapEx, we want to spend on containers and rolling stock and handling equipment. And all these 3 things, we are having constraints. So if I add in 2, 3 quarters back, I said we are going to spend CapEx of almost INR 10,000 crores as our program. I think analysts got worried how this much of CapEx is getting spent. It will be spent. So it doesn't -- the demand available in the market was a rising factor. Today, because of the constraints, we are not able to spend this -- the thing on these 3 things. So whatever CapEx is being spent, spent on only the general development.

Right. Sir any number you could leave us with for this year and next year?

We are -- until now, we could spend INR 220 crores.

Okay. Sir, last question on the LLF side. So we have been doing roughly INR 95 crores, INR 96 crores a quarter. Where would we be ending '23 with, it would be around INR 400 crores or because earlier, we have probably given a range of INR 400 crores, INR 450 crores.

And this question I answered many times. There is no change in my answer. It is INR 450 crores we take for our balance sheet purpose. There will be ...

Okay. For '23. Yes.

Yes, It is INR 450 crores.

Right sir.

There is a adjustments in the last quarter because there is some calculations, which railways will be doing, we will be doing. So you have to do these sort of adjustments in the last quarter. So we always keep that figure INR 450 crores, please take that in your analysis. Because see, the analysis will not change for INR 10 crores, INR 20 crores. Some of the questions people are asking me about INR 10 crores, INR 20 crores over an increase, decrease on a path when we are projecting a path of INR 1,200 crores for this year, does it change anything with the INR 10 crores, INR 20 crores here and there.

Right sir. It wouldn't change. Got it. Got that sir. I just wanted that indicative number of INR 450 crores.

The next question comes from Gazal Gupta from JM Financial.

I just have 1 question on the rail freight expenses. So if I look at it as a percentage of sales, usually in the past, the range has been 54% to 55%. But for this quarter, it is 57% approximately. So just wanted to understand why this increase is there for this particular quarter?

Railway has withdrawn 2 discounts; one, 25% of empty movement discount and 5% on loaded movement discount.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Mukesh Saraf from Avandia Spark (sic) [ Spark Capital ].

My first question is relating to the market share loss that you have mentioned. Could you just give us some sense on the reason for this market share loss? Is it just pricing competition from competitors? Or is there some other reasons?

Mainly pricing competition has -- our people are working with almost low margin basis. So we never do that.

Okay. Okay. That's the sigh of relief.

As I mentioned of December, we start picking up our market share.

All right. Understood, sir. And secondly, what would be the rail freight margins for us in the quarter?

Rail freight margin this quarter is 25.3%.

25.3%, Okay. So first half, it was around 26.5%. So there is a decline that...

Yes. Yes. There is an empty running cost is increasing because I already mentioned that because assets and we are -- we have to do a lot of tagging of rates and methods to give the demand from customers. Second, railway has withdrawn the discounts given for empty movement and loaded movement for.

Sure, sure. So we will be passing through this...

Yes, go ahead.

Sorry. So what I was asking is we will be passing this through to the end customers, which might take some time to...

[indiscernible] mention to discuss is not long back. It's not now. There is the withdrawn [indiscernible]. We are not passing on. Actually our pricing is totally market driven. It's nothing to do with railway pricing.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Because previously, you had mentioned that it might take some time for them pass-through to get into effect like might take 6 to 9 months. I just want to...

My pass-through will be market-driven, that's what I'm telling you. When I say pricing is market-driven. And our market can take, and I feel that I can increase prices without losing my market share. I'll do that.

The next question comes from Vikram Suryavanshi from PhilipCapital.

Some questions are already answered, but just for bookkeeping then, can we get the lead distance for EXIM, domestic for this quarter?

Alright. EXIM lead is 676 and domestic is 1,370.

Okay. And sir, basically, if you look at -- you mentioned the double-stacking trains will cross to more than 4,000 this year. But what was the number for this quarter -- third quarter number?

Third quarter number is 880.

So with this increase in double stacking, are we able to get this advantage, which can compensate for pressure on the removal of these discounts and all that and probably maintain the margin with -- or through more action which can help further scope for increasing the double stacking trains which can really relief some pressure on the margin.

Last year we did double stacking of 3,000 [indiscernible]. In the end we are backing double stacking of 4,000 plus. The increase in double stack will not be very high to -- we take care of the margins drop because of the increase in [indiscernible] freight rate by Indian Railways.

And since we are seeing very strong growth in our domestic market. And so how is the development happening for third party or contract logistics or services? What we are planning? So how is that pickup in this kind of business opportunities.

Which one, contract?

Our end-to-end logistic services, what we are looking for domestic operation with the partners and all...

Yes. Yes. So we can got on picking up [indiscernible] all the programs, right? I was talking about movement of bulking containers, we already started this cement, and it is really picking up very well, a very successful solution doing cement in normal [ GP ] container. We already moved, as I mentioned, 50,000 tonnes till now. But we are not aggressively going on because of our constraints in our [ SAS ]. And DLC, our distribution logistics centers we are pursuing that attitude definitely come out. We are now almost working on giving at least [indiscernible]. End-to-end as now FMLM services we established. Now we are working on will it be a solution, a complete solution to customers from our [indiscernible].

The next question comes from Koundinya from JPMorgan.

I got disconnected briefly. I'm not sure if you already answered this question, I apologize if I'm asking it again. Sir, I was just taking looking at the railway charge, if I look at it on per sales basis or on partial basis, it looks slightly high. Is it all along due to the discontinuation of discounts by railway? Or is there something else that I should read into it?

As far railways we get discounts. So we have not changed the -- we have not increased our rates. So railway charges will increase, our railway freight margin will slightly a [ diff ].

Sir. So in that case, is there a number that we are seeing 3Q a sustainable number? Or can we see some sort of improvement or something on this?

Which number?

That 57% of sales or around 19,700 on per TEU basis so.

Which one? what is the margin you are talking?

Sir, I was speaking about the railway charges on per sale. So when I look at the number that's around 57% which is...

I don't do that analysis. Your analysis you do everything, I will not be doing. I do my own analysis, and I have given you the macro figure that to be -- which is good. And the EBITDA margins, they will be able to maintain. But with the domestic increase, EBITDA margins will little bit cut down absolute numbers will increase.

Okay. Sure, sir. And sir, secondly, on the CapEx front, if I look at it because this year, we have -- we couldn't do much of it. So what is available...

I already answer this. But I think because you got disconnected further benefit, let me repeat see in CapEx trends, there are 4 elements. One is rigs, containers, equipment then IT, land and general develop. So the land and general development, in our [ original ] program itself, it's not very match because now we are now trying to develop an asset-light model, as CONCOR in a position now to go for a franchising model business because of its name and this popularity and the reach we got. On the equipment side our containers holding stock, there are geopolitical constraints. There are various constraints, which are actually creating a problem for us in our procurement programs. This year, we could not procure none of them. That capital expense, we would not incur. So this year, even though we projected INR 650 crores around CapEx program, we could spend only INR 220 crores. So we are working on easing out these constraints for these 3 equipment, container and rig procurement. We are hopeful that maybe we'll be able to do something in the next quarter then only the CapEx will be up.

The next question comes from Inderjeet Bhatia from HDFC Securities.

Just 1 question. Since LMS -- the new LMS policy has come out, could you -- would you want to share some insights as to what you think CONCOR would do with some of its more profitable terminals? Would you want to go through a bidding kind of system or want to retain this at existing LLF kind of structures?

Our business is well set with the existing LLF model. So we'll not be doing any immediate changes in our LLF models. We will be continuously analyzing our scenarios. And if we feel that every place we can go for bidding we will do that. Otherwise, that is a risky proposition and establish the business, putting it to a bid, somebody can play a spoilsport with us.

So that means in the base case, INR 250 crores, and then on top of it, whatever escalation described in LLF should be the number that we should work with?

I can't do a guess work for you. That is your job.

The next question comes from Deepak Krishnan from Macquarie.

I want you to understand the rail coefficient at the 3 ports, JNPT, Mundra and Pipavav.

Rail coefficient of the total port?

Of the 3 ports. So 18.2% at JNPT, 26% at Mundra and 70% was the rail share at each of these 3 ports. Could you give a similar number for Q3?

Q3 number is not available, all I can give you over 9 months.

Sure. 9-month numbers will also be fine.

Then our people will [indiscernible] you. For 9-month JNPT rail coefficient is 18.13%, Mundra 25.55% and PPS -- Pipavav is 66%.

Sure, sir. Sir, maybe just a follow-up question on this. So when probably we have the DFC leg at least between, say, Rewari-Palanpur operational for the last 6 months odd, but we've not really seen any jump in rail coefficient or rail originating volumes and as a result even your originating volumes. Anything that you would want to attribute as to why originating volumes are decreasing when DFC is getting commissioned?

I am not able to correlate the things what you are asking me.

But sir, your EXIM volumes are down 15% originating.

I just want you to know that I already given reasons why they are down. [indiscernible] increasing as the whole business in India is going through some either the import export volumes are not grown as we thought of, isn't it?

Yes, sir.

Rail coefficient if somebody is feeling that DFC comes, it will jump just like that, it will not. So the ecosystem development also will take time. There is a trend of moving from road to rail in certain sectors where DFC is serving. That much I can share with you guys.

The next question comes from Aditya from Kotak Securities.

So you did share about the Mundra market share for the company at about 38%. What would be the number of Pipavav for you, the market share for third quarter?

I got full 9 months figures. I don't maintain [indiscernible] because that doesn't matter to me. My total overall 9 months figure for Mundra is 39% and for Pipavav it is 48%...

2, 8, 20 -- you said 28%, right? Okay.

Yes.

So sir, these numbers have deploying...

[indiscernible] I don't say 28%. For Mundra, it is 39% and Pipavav it is 48%.

48%. Okay. So sir, the second question was that there has been some amount of meaningful decline happening in Pipavav and Mundra. And you are seeing that as reversal is happening in December. Can we completely recoup whatever market share we have lost over the last 1 year? Have you seen that happening in December and January?

In 1 quarter, entire thing for the 3 quarters, well, I will do it or not is -- I don't want to a guess work on that. But when I see the reversal, that is a good thing for me, either I can see a reversal without cutting out my margin. That is the best thing I can do, and that is the best in any company can achieve.

Understood, sir. Sir, the next question that I had was more on these announcements that we are hearing of ICDs coming up near your ICDs. I can recall ICDs...

[ Sure ] coming up?

Coming near your ICDs. So let's say, in Dadri, in Moradabad and in Jaipur or [ Kanakpura ], there are competing terminals coming up. Just wanted to get a sense from you whether that would lead to -- are these having coming...

Look, these are very guess work questions, which you people try to give some sort of forecasting. See what I can share with you when I took over as CMD in 2016, a long back, okay, there were announcements that there will be 35 MMLPs will be made by some different government agencies. Now can you tell me how many MMLPs have come up till now?

It's not been great going for them yet.

How many have come up? You follow this sector very closely.

Wouldn't want to have a guess [indiscernible]. But small number. I would say [indiscernible]

So these guess work questions no let them come. See, we've got our own strategies. So whenever we face competition, we know how to withstand the competition.

I was just coming to this question, sir, that given the fact that there has been market share decline, is there a rethink on the pricing front or not? Or will there be, do you think, on the pricing front or not?

And what does that mean?

A rethink on the way we price and on certain margins for our services.

We do our pricing, you see it's not easy when I'm telling that I'll come up with some scheme, 1 plus 1 scheme. Is it not a present scheme? Is there something different?

This is something [indiscernible].

But you all [ exit ].

Sir, sir fair point.

So why -- whenever I do have pricing scheme, I mentioned is we do have net positive pricing schemes. So that, I will not tell you how we do it. But that is our specialty. We never lose margins because of any risk basis schemes.

Fine, sir. Sir, just a last question from my side. As all ambiguities bringing to the land license fee policy from the railway is completely cleared now, sir? Or is there still some annuities that you have to clarify as...

There's no annuity. [indiscernible] on the railway side, the land license policy is now clear, and that is why I answered 1 of the questions which you must have had at our figure, LLR for this year is INR 450 crores. However, we are completely putting INR 450 crores on the balance sheet or less or a little more. That depends on the final adjustments of the land values railways by us because we depend on revenue authorities to give us the land values.

Yes. So I'm assuming that when you're saying is that on this dichotomy, whether to go to 1.5 or 6, at least the rumors are very, very clear, whether you want to go for 1.5 and bid for it's a separate thing, but there is no ambiguity over there, right?

There's no ambiguity. There are certain conditions in that. It's an issue then it is our call whether we take that or not. So I still business where I'm running this company well, giving a part of INR 1,200 crores of this FY in expected [ PAT ] why should I take a risk as our established business putting on a block. So I will take a call. I mean the management will take a call and we will discuss with our Board of director that is what I mentioned.

The next question comes from Pulkit Patni from Goldman Sachs.

Sir, firstly, originating volumes, I completely missed it was spoken so fast, if I could have the numbers again, please?

You send a mail, we will give you.

But sir, this -- please tell this because the mails don't get answered, it will be helpful. It's just 2 numbers I'm asking for.

You write personal mail to me. If you're mails are not getting answered, you write a personal mail.

Okay. I'll do that, sir. Sir, secondly, given that you mentioned that it takes time to develop the ecosystem, is it fair to assume that next year also our CapEx is going to be much lesser than the typical run rate that we are envisaging?

We are going to develop the ecosystem next quarter. We are confident of that.

So our CapEx for FY '24 that we should be building and should be in the range of?

The next FY?

Yes, the next FY.

Will be a good number. [indiscernible] you normally so much in advance any numbers. You know that. So it will be definitely a good number.

We have a follow-up question from Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

Sir. If you could help on 9 months FY '23 in terms of JNPT and [indiscernible] and so forth.

Already given here, these numbers you send a mail.

All right, sir. And just a clarification on the margins. You said the EBIT margins for domestic segment, you kind of target 18%. But if I look at third quarter FY '23, that margin is closer to 6%. So just sort of understanding how do we...

What 6%? Where from you got 6%, I don't know. We work on EBIT margins of 18% in domestic.

Sir, INR 43 crores on INR 790 crores [indiscernible].

There's no debating platform. You send your mail, and our Finance Director and AD Finance will answer all your questions.

Sure, sir we will do that.

That will be last question for the day.

Okay. I think now the questions are over. We may close the conference.

Okay, sir. Now I hand over the floor to Ms. Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital for the closing comments.

Yes. Thank you very much for giving us an opportunity to host you and also answering all the queries. Thank you to all the participants. And wishing you all the best, sir.

Thank you, ma'am. Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference for today. Thank you for your participation and for using Door Sabha's conference call service. You may disconnect your lines now. Thank you, and have a pleasant evening, everyone.