Container Corporation of India Limited (CONCOR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Container Corporation of India Limited Q4 FY '23 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair from DAM Capital Advisors. Thank you. And over to you, ma'am.

Yes, thanks. Good morning, everyone, and a warm welcome to the Container Corporation of India's Q4 FY '23 Earnings Call. We have the management today being represented by Mr. V. Kalyana Rama, Chairman and Managing Director; and his entire senior team. I'll now hand over the floor to Mr. Rama for his initial remarks and post which we'll open up the floor for Q&A. Over to you, sir.

Thank you, Bhoomika. And good morning to all of you. And thank you for joining for the -- in the conference call and -- to share our views on our [ CC ] business and the future. Last year, we could achieve around 7% growth in our volumes even the EXIM -- yes, there is a strain on volumes in EXIM. We are facing some headwinds. We are working on them. So let me share with you some customers are taking some positions because of the continued uncertainty going about the divestment, but then we found the solutions for that. And we are positively getting the response for that and we are working on that. Very interesting thing which happened in the EXIM sector is the direct connection to Dadri from the -- for the DFC. So that has enabled us to run the double-stack [ trains direct ] from Dadri and to Mundra and Pipavav. And the time taken is less than 24 hours, so a lot of diversion of road cargo to rail we are expecting in that, even [ time-sensitive ] cargo, [ late ] cargo. We also started the movement of reefer containers and double stack from Dadri. That's a new thing we started. So with all these developments, this year, we will be able to withstand the headwinds from the EXIM cargo. Domestic, we were doing very well, with a third year where we could see a good growth in domestic. On revenue side, we grew by 25%; on the volume side, by almost [ 15% ]. This year also, we are working out to grow in the same manner. Maybe our targets are very high, but there are [ effective signs ] in that. The main concern is the container availability [ that ] we start importing from China. And [ we developed a separate ] [indiscernible]. We released 19,000 containers manufactured in India, but the ecosystem development is still taking time. So the container manufacturing is not going at the pace which we expect and which we want, so there is shortage of domestic container. As of now, we are able to maintain our supply lines, but to grow faster, we require more containers, so we are working on different aspects like getting some containers on lease. We are working on that. And also we are releasing further orders for container manufacturing to make, get the interest that was generated in more and more manufacturers. So there are -- a lot of effort is going on in this direction. Wheel and axle, [ currently ] there is an issue of availability in India, so we are working with railways and we are -- with other manufacturers for developing these wheel and axles and to get rakes rolled out from wagon manufacturers. So that also, we are working on. Of course, these few constraints will be there in the -- towards the growth, but we are hopeful that we will be able to overcome these constraints. And with that, the domestic growth, we expect this year to be very good. And EXIM. The export, import scenario is one worrisome factor because the economies in the Western world and the other places are not very encouraging, the commentaries what we are hearing. There is the issue of [ recession as ] also people are talking of, but the domestic side, India is growing. And if the EXIM scenario [ increases ], we will get more growth. And as of now, given the EXIM volumes, we are trying to get more share. Our share is getting affected, but we are working on to recover back that share towards where we were. And these double stack operations; and other schemes which we have coming out, like the existing schemes which we are running of 50% discount on empty repositioning from port to hinterland and 1-plus-1 scheme we introduced last year, we are seeing a lot of good tailwinds in that, so we will be able to get some more schemes coming out with those schemes as the things progress. So as of now, I am not very much worried about the scenario for the next financial year even though the task is very tough on the EXIM side, but I am hopeful that my team will be able to come out with new things and we'll be able to withstand all these pressures. And we will be able to get that growth which we always start with, around 10% to 12% growth for the year. This year also, we are starting -- our financial year, we started with the same assumptions, and we are working towards that. The rest of the things, I will answer as the things -- the conference progresses. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Amit Dixit from ICICI Securities.

I have 2 questions. The first one is on CapEx. In the last con call, you rightly indicated that CapEx will be back ended. And we have seen CapEx increasing in Q4. So if you can just highlight the main areas of CapEx last year, in FY '23. And how much CapEx can be expected in FY '24, and in what areas? That is the first question, sir.

Yes. DPS, director of projects, will answer your first question, yes.

Yes. As far as the CapEx is concerned, we have got investment into going into terminals rolling stock that is wagons, procurement of containers. So [ we have the ] 4 new terminals last year. And we are hoping to commission another 4 terminals this -- another 5 terminals in FY '24. Our rolling stock, we are expecting to add anything between 24 to 36 trains in FY '24. So that, we are expecting a CapEx of around 600 crores in FY '24 [ vis-à-vis ] we have got 560 crores last year.

So 560 crores [indiscernible].

In 560 crores, the major investment has been made in rolling stock related activities. Although we have not got the rolling stock physically, we are expecting them delivered this year, but we have invested in getting new wheels, the rolling stock components [indiscernible] manufacturing activities and axles. So the major part, that is about 300 crores, we have spent on rolling stock alone.

So this year also, the major portion of the CapEx, expenditure will be on the rolling stock and the handling machinery.

Okay. That's very clear, sir. The second question is on margins. Now if I look at your margins from Q2, margins have gone one way down from 25% EBITDA margin. I'm talking about to 20.4% in this quarter and -- since you have highlighted that actually there is the EXIM -- there is a strain on EXIM volume. So while I'm not asking you to crystal gaze and tell us the margins, I just wanted to get what kind of EXIM growth are we targeting. And what kind of empty running cost was there in this quarter?

See. As I mentioned in my [ immediate ] comments, I look at try to achieve the 10% growth in EXIM volume also. So as I already mentioned in my inaugural remarks, that the DFC running now is going to help us. So that is where we are putting our cards, and we are trying to work on the positive impact which it can bring on. So to start with, we will work with the 10%, but things are not very encouraging in EXIM. EXIM, actual export, import scenario itself is not very good. The Indian exports are under strain. Like handicrafts are not going. Merchandise exports are less. [ Merchant primary agro ] exports, other exports are less. And the -- a lot of empty container inventories building up in India. So it's -- one way it's good, that export freight rates have come down, but the export scenario is not good. That is why the empty container, the inventory, is increasing. So now coming to -- as I said, even though exports may not increase -- but with the existing EXIM volume, our share has come down. In the last year, we lost some percentage share. Now we are talking of to regain that share back. So that is the main thrust area this year we are concentrating. So that will -- we will get back our share, so that will increase our EXIM volumes. And also we are working on increasing our margins by improving more and more double stack. So there is possibility of increasing double stack because [indiscernible] directly. And also, domestic, we are trying to bring into double stack operation. This is a new thing. So that -- because now we've got 2 hubs on DFC. 1 is Swarupganj. That is near Palanpur.

Palanpur...

Palanpur. And then 1 in Dadri, NCR. So between these 2 hubs, there's distance of around 650 kilometers. We are working on bringing even domestic on to double stack. That will also increase some margins for domestic as well. So these are all of the things we are working on. So this is a continuous improvement to us as we keep on doing, so with that, maybe we will be able to maintain our margins.

Okay, great, sir. And the empty running costs in this quarter, estimate, domestic...

Empty running...

[indiscernible].

Quarter [indiscernible].

Quarter is 94 crores.

94 crores...

[indiscernible] domestic...

Domestic is 87 crores and EXIM is 7 crores.

The next question is from the line of Deepak Krishnan from Macquarie.

Sir, I just wanted to understand. You said you've lost market share, so maybe could you share the overall market share number at the end of the year; and also [ point to where are you ] in terms of market share in Mundra, JNPT and Pipavav?

[indiscernible].

[indiscernible].

Yes. I'm director, domestic, Mohammad Azhar Shams. Could you please, I mean, repeat your question? And do you want to know the port share of CONCOR? Or I mean -- what share you are talking about, please.

So overall share in rail. Like you've indicated you have lost share. Last quarter, you indicated you were at 58%, so I want to know. In the [ CTO ] market, what is CONCOR's share? And individually at JNPT port, Mundra port and Pipavav port, what are the market shares? Like last quarter, you had indicated about 79% at JNPT, 38% at Mundra and 48% at Pipavav. So similar number.

Actually this overall share of CONCOR combined together, if you talk about the whole of [ or this centralized ] movement taken place...

[indiscernible].

[indiscernible].

Only in EXIM, sir.

[ Unfortunately ], that is not readily available because Director, International Marketing, Sanjay Swarup is not here. So you send that [indiscernible] by e-mail. We will answer you.

Sure, sir. Maybe then -- we just wanted to understand: There has been a substantial jump in other expenses this quarter. Has there been any sort of one-off costs or any factor that has caused -- because our segmental margins are quite strong but [ unallocable ]...

Yes. DF will answer your query.

No -- you were talking about other operating expenses...

Yes. So I can just give you the number as well in case [ that sort of helped you ].

So in other operating expenses, there is not much that we have enhanced, except for the fact that in a TKD depot there was some MCD tax issue over there. And in Mulund, before, there was some [indiscernible] that was made for dispensing with some hazardous containers. These are the 2 culprits. Because of that, we have taken some hit in that area. Rest, it is as usual.

[indiscernible]...

But if I look at -- sir, it's just not other operating expense. It's other expenses as well, which is closer to about 103 crores this quarter in stand-alone losses, 59 crores -- about 59.78 crores in previous quarter. So Q-on-Q, there's been a doubling, whereas revenue is at a similar level.

No. In other operating expenses [indiscernible] we have gone down to only 134 crore; and in administration and other expenses, yes, from 268 crores to 312 crores. That is 40 crores that have gone up, right.

Yes...

[indiscernible].

[ Of this 40 crore beta ] I told you, there are around 10 crores that we paid [indiscernible] before for MCD taxes that were -- some dispute was going on. And under the court's order, we had to pay that. [ But that ], there is some repair and maintenance, what we have taken [ every year ], in our depots that is 14 crores or 15 crores. [ 6.74 crores ] has gone to the Mulund, before, I have mentioned to you, for disposing some hazardous materials. And [indiscernible] payment has gone up by 5 crores in this FY. And there is something [indiscernible] we are doing in this bulk [ cements ] business, where we have booked around 2 crores. So that [indiscernible] of expenses that has gone up, but if you look at other operating expenses, there we have gone down from 138 crores to 134 crores.

Yes.

Yes.

Maybe just one, if I can squeeze in. Could you just share your originating volumes for the quarter?

[ Originating ] volume?

Yes.

Okay.

Now originating volume...

So for [indiscernible] 1.1 lakh. 19 lakhs -- it is 19 lakhs 18,079 for [indiscernible]. And for domestic business, it is 4,40,878.

Sure, sir. So could you just repeat that EXIM, 19 lakhs...

19 lakh 18,079. That is in EXIM originating volumes. And so domestic is 4 lakh 40,878.

The next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citigroup.

Sir, I just wanted to get your view on the margin profile for domestic business. And the context is that is there obviously the company has done very well. And on a per-TEU basis, even at this level of volume, it is almost similar to EXIM. So margins have really expanded. So if the volumes ramp up from here, can we potentially look at further expansion in per-TEU EBITDA of domestic business? And can it even go higher than EXIM?

See, Atul, [indiscernible] domestic margin, our TEU, we are trying to improve upon, but they're always not comparable to EXIM volumes. The EXIM is, see, every movement is paid for, for us because we undertake movement on behalf of the shipping line and other customers. In domestic, if there is an empty repositioning, it is at our cost, so that is where actually we take a hit on our margins. So our -- always our endeavor is to reduce as much as empty running as possible , but as the business grows at a faster pace, there is always an inherent empty repositioning involved in this till we get a better structure built up for the new business we are getting. So this is the margin expansion cannot be much faster. In fact, to improve our margins in domestic, what we are working on is we are adding value-added service. So value-added services in the form of first-mile, last-mile deliveries; [indiscernible] support solutions; and distribution logistics, which we are talking, I am talking over last 4 or 5 years now [indiscernible] to start off as early as possible. That is a total asset-light business. So with these things, we want to improve [ our margin ] for domestic business.

Okay, sir. And sir, just a second question on the EXIM originating volumes. So the number that you gave, 19 lakh 18,000 for this year. If I like look at the history, I mean, we raised a similar number, say, in FY '15 also. So almost like 7, 8 years. And it has been kind of flattish, so what is the strategy to kind of grow this number from here?

[indiscernible] you can't take [ 1 16 and 1 23 ] [indiscernible]. There was a growth in-between. Now it has come down actually. I already told you we lost some market share. There is a lot of competition for us, and the uncertainty of divestment. Some customers are taking some positions, okay? So this, actually we lost some volume of EXIM in the last year. We lost some market share. So we come out with a new scheme in the month of November, 1-plus-1 scheme. So the -- after a [ threshold ] volume, if anybody offers us one loaded container, we'll move one empty container free. So that is one scheme which has been taken up by all my customers very enthusiastically, and the volumes are increasing. We are already continuing our empty repositioning scheme, so we are now working on coming up with some new schemes. As I said, reefer containers, we put on to double stack. We are going to come out with some scheme with reefer containers. So these are all the things which we are coming out to withstand the competition and also to overcome the uncertainty problems which we are having for 4 years. So we are working on that.

Okay, sir. And sir, finally, very quickly, could you say the domestic originating volume number again? I missed that. Sorry. Domestic originating volume.

[Foreign Language]

Okay, okay.

[Foreign Language]

The next question is from the line of Abhishek Ghosh from DSP.

Sir, I just wanted to -- just on the market share loss part of it, I just wanted to understand one thing. Is it because of supply addition, terminal addition by competition? Or is it a pricing strategy that has been taken by competition that has led to market share loss?

Both are there. Both play a factor because these competition pricing strategy is CONCOR minus. So there is an operating strategy. If I say my price is X, they will say X minus 3,000, so -- and competition is not the other people operating on the rail alone, so we don't see that as a very big competition. Competition is road as well. Road network is improving. A lot of expressways are coming up. And the things are moving very fast, so we have to match that. These are the 2 factors [ of it ].

And sir, since you also spoke about the market share loss in the last quarter as well, is it fair to assume that the market share loss has now at least got arrested and it will be stable now? Is it fair to assume that?

[ In fact ], you can assume positively, if you think positive. That is the essence of life. So what we are working on is to take more market share and stabilize the market share.

Great. And sir, just one last thing on the domestic part of the business is how has been the traction on the cement part of this [ thing ], if you can just enlighten us with that.

See, we did handle around...

3,800...

3,800 containers last year.

[ And it's that is, 1 month, 800 ]...

So last month, in the month of March, we touched 800. So there is a lot of interest now that things have stabilized, so -- but there is [indiscernible]. That is a major issue, so we are not really pushing it very fast. We require 25,000 more containers, but India container manufacturing industry has had to pick up, so we are working in a balanced way.

The next question is from Ankita Shah from Elara Capital.

So sir, my question is on LLF. Or what would be the LLF amount this year, FY '24?

So do you want to know what we paid this year or what we are expecting to pay this year? What is your question?

Expecting to pay this year, '24.

So actually you can see that [indiscernible] on actual basis, if you recall con calls in Q1 and Q2, where we mentioned very clearly that for the FY '22, '23 we were paying on actual basis because, by the time, we have got [ all the rates of the land ]. So last year, we end up -- we ended up paying around 392 crores, so you can just add 7% on that. So that comes out to be something around 430 crores.

Okay, okay. And no more adjustments to the number. Or the land terminals that you have...

As we disclosed to you last year also, that we have already made provisions of around 70 crores with that. So by and large, most of the places, we have already reconciled things with Indian Railways. Few parcels are still there, but we have got enough cushions with us...

Sir, sorry to interrupt. You're sounding a bit distant, sir. May I request you to come closer to the speakerphone?

Okay. So what I was mentioning, that we have got enough cushion with us in provisioning in FY '22, '23, so -- '21, '22. So that provision is already there. And we are on the mode of reconciling things. Most of things have been done with Indian Railways. And a few cases where, if any, further payment is required [ with them ], provision already exists. So in this FY, whatever we are required to pay is -- on actual basis, that is 392 crores plus 7%. This is what we are planning to pay. I hope I made it clear.

Yes, sir, absolutely. Sir, secondly, on the realization part. So do we see more pressure on the realizations for the EXIM? And what about domestic side? How much should we take that going forward?

I think, Ankita, I answered this question of 2, 3 guys.

Sir, on the realization part, you said, you mentioned about the market share and the volumes on the EXIM side...

Margins also. I said, margins also, there is a pressure. And so that is one realization, isn't it? So margin, there is a pressure on EXIM [ because we ] are trying to get our market share back. So we will be coming out with schemes, but that pressure on [indiscernible] to withstand by improving our double stack operation from Dadri and trying to reduce more and more empty running. In domestic, as I said, the [ secured ] building which we do, as we add new traffic, there will be more of empty running. Then we will start [indiscernible] scope for more traffic in the reverse direction. And we build the [ secured ]. And also we are adding value-added services.

Got it. Lastly, just if you can share the double stacking or -- of trains that you run in this year...

We did, last year, 4,100 double stacks compared to 3,750 a year before. This year, we are trying to bring domestic into double stack, so our aim and my target to my team is that we must cross 5,000 double stack this year.

The next question is from the line of Abhishek Nigam from B&K Securities.

Sir, if you can just update us on the 5 new terminals. Where are they coming up? And will they commence operations in FY '24 or '25?

Yes. We are coming up [indiscernible] is there in Jajpur. Do you know the Kalinganagar steel cluster, that very large steel cluster? Then the second one, we have got one on [indiscernible], one Mandalgarh. Then we are building [indiscernible] [ which has been notified ], but it will be connected to DFC on the other side. Then we are also planning a terminal on South of Delhi, for which land acquisition is under discussion with the Haryana government; then another terminal we are trying to have in Punjab. So about 5 terminals we are planning for FY '23, '24.

Okay, so '24, '25, right?

These are for '23, '24.

So okay, calendar year '23, '24.

Yes.

Yes.

Fair enough. And just on the DFCC, if you will, whatever latest updates, if you have any thoughts on -- especially for the [ final ] connectivity for JNPT.

Yes...

[indiscernible] [ you have here this year ].

Okay, okay.

[ Yes. ]

[ You have here this year ], okay?

Fair enough, yes, okay.

The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

My first question was what is the contribution in terms of the volume sourced by our associates or trade partners which is coming onto our rakes for FY '23?

What is an associate trade partner? What is that?

Associates or trade partners who are sourcing the volumes and using our rakes for the movement.

We call them business associates, BAs. So domestic volume, it's -- except corporate customers, everything will come through BAs only. So the volume will be something like 60% is through BAs.

Operator, can you hear me?

I guess -- Mr. Lohade -- yes.

So 60% of domestic volume is through associates.

Sorry, sir. I couldn't hear in-between. You said 50% of the domestic volume is through business associates, right? Have I got the number right?

60%.

6-0, okay. And how about the EXIM, sir?

EXIMs, there is no associate, no. EXIM, it is we are not booking at the terminal. There is no concept of associate in EXIM. Where from you got this concept?

No. I'm just asking, sir. Domestic, I was aware, so that's why I wanted to know the percentage.

All right. So in EXIM, it is directly the CHAs, the exporters, importers, some [indiscernible]. In imports, it is entirely through shipping lines. All the imports, shipping lines are our customers. Shipping lines directly give us the volumes. On export side, now the scenario is shipping lines offer us some places. CHAs offer us some places. There are some places that directly customers are offering. It's a mixed bag.

Understood. Sir, sorry. I'm hopping on the market share question. Is the market share loss at a particular port terminal? Or is it at a particular pocket, ICD pocket? Can you clarify a little bit on that? Or it's across the board, sir, in the EXIM segment.

EXIM segment, major -- basically the competition which we feel is on this Western sector, particularly Mundra and NCR sector. So that is where the competition is really tough. And where we lost some market share, we are working on that.

Got it. Sir, just the margin guidance with respect to EXIM and domestic for the full year, sir. That's about it from my end.

Margin guidance, as I said here in my opening remarks, we will try to maintain the same margins.

Of fourth quarter. Have I got it right, sir?

What we have seen this financial year.

Financial year, okay, sir, got it.

We don't work on quarter-on-quarter, no, so that you people try to do it. Because these long-term investors I got, they don't bother over quarter-on-quarter performance. They look [ at it ] for the next 5 years performance.

The next question is from the line of Priyankar Biswas from Nomura.

Sir, my first question is, as you had indicated, that the number of double stacking will increase from 4,100 to around 5,000. So if that happens, to what extent should our EXIM profitability should -- go up? That's the first question.

[ So look. I am not an analyst ]. As I said in many conferences where you people are listening to me for the last 7 years, I don't do these guessworks. See, there will be definitely increase in margins. Now what percentage, how many percentages points, that, [ I will don't know ]...

[ Because, sir ], you are guiding for same margins in EXIM...

No. I said here -- because there are the -- see, there are factors we are getting affected by, the competition, some headwinds against us, so we are working on -- so maintaining the same margin in logistics business, what we got for this financial year, in itself is a very tough task. And it's -- the margins at this level, logistics business is very tough. I don't think any other logistics operator are coming up with these margins.

That's true.

Yes. Thank you for accepting.

So sir -- and one more thing is, sir, you have been highlighting about the first mile and last mile to improve the services to your customers.

Yes.

So at this point, how much of a network, like in terms of terminals, do we have this first-mile and last-mile coverage?

See, we got now almost all terminals covered under first mile, last mile, okay?

Growth is very good [ in them ].

So -- and growth also is very good in that. So like, last year, we handled almost more than 0.5 million TEUs.

[indiscernible]...

So our target is [ 50% ] [indiscernible] we handle, something like we handle originating volumes of 2.2 million to 2.3 million. So we want to handle almost 1 million to 1.25 million TEUs under our FMLM in this or by the next financial year. That's our target. We are working on that. And moreover, to improve the productivity on the FMLM side, what we are trying to do: We ordered 100 LNG trucks. Order is already placed. In fact, if you people follow the Honorable Transport Minister Shri Nitin Gadkari-ji, he mentioned in one of his speeches that he inaugurated the first LNG truck from the Pune company. So that is there where we placed our orders, 100 LNG trucks. So these LNG trucks, we'll be introducing. And we will be putting our LNG station in our own terminal. We are already tying up with the oil companies. There are oil companies that are also very much interested. So once we start with this, when we experience this for 2, 3 months, then we will proliferate this across all our main terminals with LNG transportation. And let me tell you the LNG transport will be at the 50% cost of diesel transport.

So the running costs would be like 50% lower for the LNG trucks, so something like that.

Yes. So that is not 50% of the costs. There are other costs. So the fuel cost seen in the local transportation is something like -- you can account it for 42%, 45%, so you will save like 20%, 25% of money in the local transportation.

Okay, okay, sir. And sir, just if I may squeeze just one more in: So your double stacking has risen very sharply, like, FY '23 versus FY '22, but the increase in profitability in EXIM is sort of range bound. I mean, is there any other factor that we need to be aware of? Like what is like preventing the EXIM margins from going up? I understand it's one of the highest in the industry, but still...

[indiscernible]...

See, the empty running costs -- railways, [ you were ] giving 25% discount on empty in '22 -- '21, '22. Now last year, it is withdrawn. And then there is a 5% reduction in the load runs. That is reduced, but we have not increased our rates. So we have absorbed these costs, 25% in the empty, not that -- and when I say empty, they are not only empty rakes; empty container movement as well. And all that 25% [indiscernible] domestic as well as in EXIM also, we absorb here. And 5% increase in the loaded runs, we absorb. So these are all the pressure on the [ margin ].

We have seen some [indiscernible] ...

So that is where we could maintain our margins only with a little bit of pressure on margins, because of our improved double stack, improved operations and faster turnaround of rakes.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Mukesh Saraf from Avendus Spark.

My first question is again on the market share, but you had commented that road transportation is also getting extremely competitive. Sir, I mean the backdrop of double stacking, DFC, time table change. We were actually expecting the opposite where rail will have gotten a lot more competitive, so just trying to understand. What are the reasons that road is also gaining share over rail, [ or getting new competition ]?

Yes. I said that, that road is gaining share.

No. I mean -- okay, it is competitive, because of which it's probably impacting your margins or market share.

Competition is a word that means road is not giving up. So as we are improving things, there are the improvements in road also. There are expressways coming up. You see now Delhi-Mumbai expressway, honorable ministry is starting up moving in 16 hours from Delhi to Mumbai.

Right.

Okay. So when I say competition, it doesn't mean that [indiscernible] and they are gaining.

Okay.

Now that, you should never understand like that. Competition means they are also equally improving things, so we have to keep on improving our things to maintain our share, as well our margins.

Right, but is it fair to assume road has not lost share, sir? Because in the last 2, 3 years, with DFC and double stacking, we assumed there will be a movement from road to rail. Is that happening? Or not.

[ That we'll see gained share ]. Now see, I don't maintain the entire all India statistics, so these figures, we have to see. But how much road has gained, how much rail has gained, we have to see, but definitely we gained some traffic because of the double stack running we are doing. And the DFC connecting to Dadri happened this year. So this year, we are definitely expecting more volumes to come to us when we are seeing the traction. You see, when I tweeted on my handle about the double -- the connection of Dadri directly into Mundra, it got a number of hits. There's so much of interest in that.

Okay, okay, okay, so we should assume that probably -- with more connectivity now, that this could be an inflection point. We could gain a lot more share from road going ahead, sir.

You [indiscernible]. [ Tell me ]. Then I will tell what we think.

No, but on the ground, you would be a -- [ you would give a better sense as to ]...

Yes, definitely, right. We see, from Dadri to Mundra, now the container is moving within 24 hours.

Sure, sure, sure.

So no road can take this to 24 hours to Mundra, [ then with ] all expressways. Now JNPT connection with the dedicated freight corridor, I can't comment on that. See, I think, if something happens, then we will be definitely compared with the Mumbai-Delhi expressway. The Mumbai-Delhi expressway, somebody is talking of 16 hours, that is for a car. If somebody is driving with -- non-stop, that is a -- so a truck will take maybe 30 hours if you go with a double driver. So then there is always the rail. The dedicated freight corridor [ will be even more ] [indiscernible]. These is -- these are all the improvements which will be -- which are coming in rail sector. They will be competing with the road, so road is doing competition. Rail also has to keep on improving things.

Got it, sir, got it, got it. And secondly, sir, what is the rail freight margins in this fourth quarter?

[indiscernible] rail freight margins?

26%...

26%.

26%, all right. And lastly, the lead distances, if you could give for both domestic and EXIM.

Their lead distance are almost same. For the lead distance, you want to know the quarter's or the -- quarter.

[indiscernible].

Yes, for the quarter, if you could.

Quarter, it is 657 in EXIM and 1,382 in -- EXIM...

[ Domestic ].

1,382 in domestic. 657 EXIM, 1,382 domestic.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Vikram Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital.

No, my questions are answered. Thanks.

Okay, okay, all right. Thank you.

Next question is from the line of [ Ravmindra Rathul ] from Dolat Capital.

I just wanted to know that -- the CapEx plans that we had at the start of FY '23 that we would be spending around 8,000 crores to 10,000 crores in the next 3 to 4 years. I think, this year, we won't be on track due to the domestic ecosystem, so what is -- in the medium term, is the plan still on for CapEx?

The plan is on. We will be spending that money because our plan is to acquire 260 rakes -- 270 rakes. In that, we got now 33 rakes. The remaining rakes we will be acquiring in next 3 to 4 years, we are working on the ecosystem. So there is 237 rakes leftover, each rake worth 14 crores to 15 crores. You calculate. You take down with your pen and paper. Note down these numbers. We want to increase our domestic containers, our holding of containers, over next 5 years to something like a 1 lakh to 2 lakhs, depending on the demand. Now each container is worth 4 lakhs. Calculate yourself. So our plans are there. So how then we have to develop the ecosystem, that -- then the capital expenditure will take. That's what I've said. Is it quarter-on-quarter? Our investors are not looking at. Our investors are looking at what in the next 5 years we are going to do. In next 5 years, our plans are intact. As I mentioned, that 8,000 crores, 10,000 crores, we will be investing into the rolling stock, into the terminals, into various other things. It is still there and it will -- it is -- it will happen.

And sir, what would be your guidance on the additional benefits of this CapEx in the medium term on our top line?

My guidance, for this financial year, we will try to maintain our margins. We will try to grow at 10%, what we always aim at. And then we'll see how things will go out. So there is no guidance I can give you beyond 1 year. We don't give that guidance.

And sir, the EBITDA margins in this -- or sequentially have contracted, so is there any one-off? Or what are reasons behind that...

That EBITDA margins. We did that one-off question our DF has answered. It's very less, very small one-off we did, so there is not much of one-off. There are pressures on margins. And we will be working towards maintaining the same margins as this FY for the next fiscal -- the current FY as the previous FY.

[Operator Instructions]

If there are no further questions, I think Bhoomika can end the day. All right, Bhoomika?

Sir, we have one follow-up question. Can we take that?

Okay, okay.

Yes. This is from Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

Sorry. I'm -- I just wanted to know in terms of market share for the full year and for domestic and EXIM, if you could specify, sir. I know you said the market share is not available, but just a ballpark: contraction. How much is the contraction in the EXIM for full year?

[indiscernible]. You want figures. See, you want to know the policy and the trends. I think I can comment. If you want exact figures, what I'll suggest, you people send mail. My secretary [indiscernible] will reply you back.

Sure. Just another statistic, with respect to the rail coefficient and the port mix?

Again, do you want numbers, or do you want the trend [ maybe ]?

Trend, if you could specify. And numbers, I will send the e-mail.

[indiscernible] we lost some share. In rail share, we lost some share in the EXIM segment. In domestic, we are doing very well. In EXIM market, we almost command 90% share on the containers which are moving by rail, but in EXIM segment, we lost share, where we are working on to gain back that share.

I meant rail coefficient at ports, sir, at -- or aggregate ports; if it is 22%, it has improved or declined or anything of that...

I can't give you those figures. I told you. You send mail. You'll get the figures.

All right, sir. Sure, sir.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be our last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Bhoomika Nair for closing comments. Thank you. And over to you, ma'am.

Yes. I would like to thank everyone. And thank you to the management for giving us the opportunity to host this call. Thank you very much, sir. And wishing you all the very best.

Thank you. Thank you, Bhoomika.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of DAM Capital Advisors Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.