Container Corporation of India Limited (CONCOR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Container Corporation of India Limited Q1 FY '27 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Kunal Shah from DAM Capital Advisors. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Yes. Good afternoon. Welcome to the 1Q FY '27 Earnings Call of Container Corporation of India. We have the management being represented by Mr. Sanjay Swarup, the Chairman and Managing Director. I would like to hand over the call to Sanjay sir for his opening remarks, post which we can take up the Q&A. Thanks, and over to you, sir.

Yes. Good morning to all of you. I'm being joined by Mr. Ajit Kumar Panda, Director of Project & Services; Mr. Vijoy Kumar Singh, Director of International Marketing and Operations; Mr. Vivek Gupta, Director of Finance; and Mr. Harish Chandra, Principal Executive Director of Finance and Company Secretary. I am glad to announce that the rail freight margin has increased. Board of Directors have declared a dividend of INR 1.60 per share, that is 32% on par value of INR 5. And the throughput of the company was all-time high for any first quarter, Q1, that was 1.4 million TEUs, registering a growth of 9% year-on-year, in which EXIM's contribution was 9.8% growth, domestic was 6.2% growth. Rail freight margin also increased by 85 basis points. That is from 26.96% to 27.81%. And rail freight margin has increased. At the same time, we have increased the market share also. In EXIM, it has increased by 90 basis points. In domestic, it has increased by 370 basis points. And overall increase in market share is 160 basis points despite increase in margins also. Lead has also increased by overall 2% for the company, primary contributions being in domestic long lead movement, Nepal movement and double stack for JNPT. Volume of business to Nepal has seen a growth of 61%, which is a very handsome increase in this Q1 on a year-on-year basis. Market share at JNP increased by 4.2%. Mundra, it was a slight drop. Pipavav, it was flat, almost same. Empty running cost has also reduced by 10%. EXIM material contribution of 30% reduction and domestic 1.5%. And one more development, which is very important for us is the connectivity of DFC to JNPA, which were achieved on 20th June 2026. And I'm happy to announce that double stack trains are running from JNPA to various terminals, primarily to North India, from 20th June 2026. One more product that we had introduced was bulk cement transportation in tank containers. Now we have a healthy fleet of around 700 tank containers. Apart from that, industry has also purchased on their own. So in the country, we have a fleet of around 1,000 tank containers now. We have given orders for 2,000 more tank containers. So by this financial year-end, we will have a very good fleet of tank containers, which will positively contribute to both top line as well as bottom line. Infrastructure additions have been quite good in Q1. We have commissioned 19 high-speed rakes, and we are on path to achieving 500 rakes by 2028. We have procured 560 new containers. Now our fleet is more than 58,000 containers of our own. CapEx, we have achieved around INR 118 crores. So as per the budget for this financial year, INR 945 crores, I would like to keep it intact. Maybe after Q2, we will revisit the budget, whether to increase it or not. EBITDA margin also have been very good in this quarter, we have achieved EBITDA margin of 23.6%. Year-on-year, it was -- it is increased. Last year in Q1, it was 23.1%. So again, a growth in EBITDA margin also. PAT standalone results, PAT has also seen a very good growth of 7.7%. Now I will briefly give the business scenario in both EXIM and domestic. As I told in EXIM, double stack trains have started from JNPT to Dadri, to Kathuwas and Varnama. It's a big boost to trade. We are in talks with senior officers of Indian Railways. Once the monsoon completes its cycle from October, we will announce assured transit time frame between North India and JNPT, which will enable movement of cargo from road to rail. Shift of cargo will be there. We are expecting a very good shift after assured transit train has started from October. Then new DPD long lead service from JNPT to Kolkata was started in this quarter. New LCL export service from Dadri to DIP/JNPT was started in this quarter, which is a significant milestone for EXIM movement. We achieved 45% growth in reefer exports, refrigerated exports in this quarter year-on-year, 8% growth in DPD movement then we achieved 9% growth in laden exports and around 5% growth in laden imports. In almost all the ports, we have seen a growth. Primarily Chennai, we got 10% growth; Kamarajar Port, 88% growth; Vizag Port, 57% growth, which is a very good growth for our company in Q1. Now I will come to domestic. Domestic, we started assured transit train from TKD to Kolkata via Agra and Kanpur around 8, 9 months back, which has been quite well received by trade. We are getting good business on this. There are firm indications from Indian Railways that they're going to announce another assured transit train from South India to North India, which will be announced very soon by Ministry of Railways, which will further increase our domestic business. Bulk cemented tank containers is a very big hit in trade, and we are getting very good business in this. Now with having good fleet of tank containers, we hope to ramp up good volumes and positive contribution to top line as well as bottom line. Gunny Bales traffic, which was in between, it was stopped, has again started. We are getting good demand in Eastern India for Gunny Bales traffic. One more development is the big -- very big order we are going to sign very soon from a leading Maharatna company of Government of India based in South India. And from South India to Western India, we will be getting very good business of domestic, in which every year, we will add 1 million tonnes in domestic as a result of this agreement. This agreement we are going to sign in another 1 week or 10 days. Apart from that, several reforms have been announced by Honorable Minister of Railways for containerization of various commodities like salt, fly ash, fertilizer, food grains. This will give further boost to our domestic business. So at this point of time, now I'm going to revise my guidance for this financial year. Revised guidance will be EXIM will be 15%, domestic will be 25%. Overall guidance will be 18% for this financial year. With these so many developments taking place in EXIM as well as domestic, we are quite bullish, and we are quite confident that we will be able to achieve this much growth. So this is all from my side as far as opening remarks are concerned. Now we are ready for question and answers.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Alok from Motilal Oswal.

So just had a couple of questions. One is if you can just help with the originating volumes for this quarter?

Yes. Now the originating volume for this quarter for EXIM, it was 561,025 TEUs and domestic 106,114 TEUs, total is 667,139 TEUs.

Got it. And sir, I just wanted to understand, I mean, when you are giving this guidance, it's for the handling volume or originating volume? When you have revised...

Normally, we are giving guidance only for handling volumes.

Okay. Okay. So if I just look at the handling volume numbers, I mean, there's -- if we go by the guidance which you have just upgraded now, so there's a lot of catch-up required, especially in the domestic side because currently, in the first quarter, we have done far below the guided number. So what gives this confidence actually, if you can just highlight on that, sir?

As I explained in my opening remarks, there are a lot of things which are happening. Maybe you are not able to see that impact in Q1. So now all these things are materializing. And we have 9 more months in this financial year. So definitely, all these will have a positive impact, and we will be able to achieve the -- already 6% we have achieved in domestic. And all these developments that I highlighted in my opening remarks, we are confident to achieve 25% growth.

Got it. Just last question. So if you can just share the rail coefficient. And has there been any significant change at JNPT after the DFC there? So just you can highlight on that, please.

See now JNPT DFC, as I told you, it is commissioned on 20th of June. So in the Q1, only 10 days were left. So 10 days is just too short period because quarter consists of around 90 days. So 90 days is a very short period to have an impact. Apart from that, if you have been observing, there have been heavy rains in Mumbai, which disrupted the movement temporarily. And it has been followed by heavy rains in Gujarat now. So all this -- that is why we are not going to start -- we are not starting assured transit train in this weather. From October only, we will announce assured transit train. So then impact is visible, but it's not a sizable impact as of now.

Got it. So even in the second quarter, we might not really see any impact coming through?

See, second quarter has just started. So it will not be proper to comment on that. So we are quite positive and let us see because our services are there and a lot of pendencies are also there at ports. So things are shaping up in a positive manner only.

The next question is from the line of Mukesh from Avendus Spark.

Yes, sir. My question is again regarding the DFC and how road to rail can happen. So if I just go back to last few years, you would have seen this road to rail happen in the Gujarat ports. But I mean, absolute volume did not see that much of an improvement for us because of this road to rail. So just trying to understand how different will JNPT be for us vis-a-vis Gujarat when it comes to the DFC and the road to rail?

There is a slight difference because in Mundra and Pipavav, DFC was not entirely going up to the ports. There was a feeder route also involved. And -- but in JNPT, it will be pure DFC going up to ports. So feeder route means other trains are also running on that route. But now on this circuit, now NCR and JNPT, there will be only freight trains running on that track. So definitely, movement will be faster and things will be -- efficiency will be more.

Right. Any sense you can give us currently how much of JNPT cargo, which is moving to the hinterland is moving on road right now, the containers? And what's your expectation, say, after 1 year of DFC being operational, how much of that could have shifted to rail?

See, as of now, around 15% to 16% is the rail coefficient at JNPT as of now. Rest all is moving by road. And of course, there is some transshipment volume also. I expect that once DFC now has been commissioned, so in another 2 to 3 years' time, we should have double rail coefficient. Actually, it should be 30%-35%. That is as per National Rail Plan also. We should have 30%-35% rail coefficient at JNPT.

Sir, this 15%, 16% rail coefficient, the remainder of 85%. I mean everything obviously doesn't go to the hinterland. There will be a lot of short distances, which anyways has to move by road only. So the addressable market probably is lesser than that because we are looking to take the containers to Northern hinterland. So that is what can probably move from road to rail, isn't it, sir?

See, it includes transshipment volume also. And rightly, you have pointed out some short distance movement also. We have all the details with us. But at this forum, I don't think I have that much time to share that detail.

Right. Got that. And sir, second question is, could you give us your market share, sir, the market shares in the Northern hinterland market? I think you used to provide that earlier. And you had mentioned earlier on that some distance -- short lead distances you had exited. So it will be helpful to understand where we are on that now.

So I don't have a market share for Northern hinterland only. I have pan-India market share with me, rail transportation share. So now the market share, as I told you in my opening remarks, has increased both in EXIM as well as domestic. In Q1 year-on-year, last year, it was -- in EXIM, it was 53.1%. Now it is 54%. So there is an increase of 90 basis points. In domestic, it has increased from 55% to 58.7%. That is an increase of 370 basis points. Overall market share has increased from 53.6% to 55.2%. That is a growth of 160 basis points. So that is in Q1, we have seen a good increase in market share and good increase in margin at the same time.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from Nuvama.

Sir, first, if you could talk a little bit about the Nepal cargo, what is the opportunity there? How much are we doing now on an annual basis? And what was it in FY '26, the contribution from this particular sector?

See now Nepal cargo, we have seen an increase of 61% in Q1 on a year-on-year basis. In FY '26, in Q1, we ran 69 trains to Nepal, whereas in this FY -- in Q1, we have run 111 trains. So growth is 61% in Nepal traffic. So this is a very good growth, I should say, in Nepal business from -- basically from Visakhapatnam to Nepal, which is a very long lead traffic, 1,400 kilometers. We are able to run these many trains. One more development has taken place for Nepal. That is till now we have been running up to only Birgunj, which is a dry port in Nepal, bordering Raxaul. Raxaul is in India, Birgunj is in Nepal, only 4 kilometers apart. Now one more place, customs has granted us permission, and we have already started running train, one train already we have handled. That is at Biratnagar. Biratnagar is in Nepal, sorry, Jogbani is in India. So Jogbani, Biratnagar also, we have started train. So we propose to run around 8 to 10 trains every month for Biratnagar Jogbani also. So Nepal, we will be serving 2 places by train, Biratnagar Jogbani and Raxaul Birgunj. So in the coming months, you will see very good growth in Nepal movement.

Sir, if you could call out what was the contribution in FY '26 as a full year? And what would be that for FY '27? Just wanted to understand if this delta in terms of upward revision, how much of that is on account of Nepal?

That number, I don't have with me right now. We can share it later on with you. Specifically in Nepal numbers, what contribution on overall volume, I don't have right now with me.

No problem, sir. I'll take it offline. Secondly, in terms of the EXIM growth, 15% is what you have called out, what is the underlying industry as in port volume growth you have built in, sir? Is that 10%, 12%, 15%?

Now this growth primarily will be through double stack movement through JNPT. This will be shifted from road to rail. Secondly, we have brought Jodhpur also on double stack. Till now, Jodhpur was not having double stack movement. So in this month only 3, 4 days, we will be handling first double stack train at Jodhpur. This will also shift cargo from road to rail. And thirdly, at Ahmedabad, again, we are having another terminal where we will have a double stack movement. Till now in Ahmedabad, we don't have double stack. CONCOR doesn't have double stack facility. That will further increase our business. There in South India, there is a terminal Kadakola, where we have in Mysuru, where we have got good cargo for waste paper. And for that also, we have got custom notification. This will also give a boost to our traffic. So like there are so many places where we expect that traffic will increase in EXIM segment.

Got it. And if you could just clarify on the employee cost, sir, it was down 22% Y-o-Y. What should be the sustainable run rate we should work with? And the LLF cost, it was higher at INR 113 crores. Is that a new normal quarterly run rate?

See, LLF already, we are having a 7% increase every year. But at the same time, we are -- in my earlier calls also, I told you, it's a continuous exercise that we are surrendering the terminals, which are no longer required without sacrificing our business. So that has been the company's policy. Constantly, we are doing. So in this quarter also, there is not much growth in LLF. As far as employee cost is concerned, I will request my PED finance to clarify.

Yes. Employee cost, I think there's a little fall as compared to last year. In fact, last year, there was a one-off -- a few transactions which were one-off. In fact, we paid some award to our employees in the last quarter, in the June '25 quarter. And similarly, there was also one-off. We have also contributed some amount to the Provident Fund trust. There was some provisioning for one of the investments, which didn't do well and which has been reimbursed to the trust. So that's the reason. Otherwise, there is no extraordinary thing which has happened.

The next question is from the line of Sumit Kishore from Axis Capital.

Sir, my first question is Q1 performance was quite good in EXIM given that it was in the backdrop of the West Asia crisis. Could you please elaborate on what has been the business impact in Q1 because of the regional geopolitical events? And how is it having a bearing on your ongoing performance in Q2, if at all?

See, West Asia crisis had an impact on us in Q4 of last FY. As far as Q1 is concerned, rightly you have mentioned, we don't feel much impact, and we have good pendencies at ports. Exports also are showing good growth. As I mentioned that there has been a 9% growth in exports and 5% growth in imports in Q1 year-on-year basis. So in this quarter also till now, performance has been quite okay. But because of the good monsoons, the disruptions in train services are there. So we are feeling the impact of that. But as far as West Asia impact is concerned, there's not much impact, except on domestic in Morbi, we are feeling an impact because it has not come back to normal, Morbi where tiles are being produced.

Sure. My second question is, if you could speak about how double stacking panned out for CONCOR in Q1? And how does it compare on a year-on-year basis? And given the ramp-up in double stacking that you expect now, directionally, how do you expect the quarterly number to look like a couple of quarters down the line as you sort of take in the benefits of JNPT connectivity to DFC. Some comments there would be helpful.

See, as a matter of fact, double stack saw a fall in this quarter, a fall of 12%. And because the imports that were there, mostly there were 20-feet imports. And on upper deck, only 40 feet are allowed in double stack. And JNP actually DFC was commissioned, only 10 days were remaining in Q1. So not much double stacking we could expect on that circuit. So -- but now we are hopeful that this will pick up with now this JNP DFC going in full form. So in the coming days, in coming weeks, we will have good double stack runs.

Okay. So as compared to, sir, your double stack number for FY '26, which was 6,396, it was up barely 1%. How do you see the FY '27 number on double stacking pan out? And as per the unit economics that you are seeing on DFC right now, how much more sort of contribution at the EBITDA level or some sense that you could give us on what is the retained -- what does the efficiency gain that CONCOR is able to retain from a double stack rate on DFC versus pre-DFC economics?

See, double stack, I see a very good growth once this JNP and all that stabilizes. I see at least a growth of some 8% to 10% on this circuit. As far as EBITDA margins are concerned, which will have a positive impact as a result of double stack, that calculations we have made. It is a rough calculation. I can't share on this forum as of now.

The next question is from the line of Aditya from Kotak Securities.

Congratulations on a good set of results. Two questions from my side. The first one, I just wanted to clarify the market share numbers, are they based on handling volumes? Or are they based on originating volumes?

Now this market share is based on tonnage basically. That is railway tonnage carried by us. So strictly speaking, it is on originating volumes.

Understood. That clarifies. The second part is that -- on this question is that on the EXIM side of things, there appears to be some dip in realization -- this is the originating volume numbers being taken into account on a Y-o-Y and a Q-on-Q basis. Could you give us some more color as to what is the driver behind the scenes?

See, realization, as I explained earlier also, it's a function of 2 things. First is the tonnage and second is the distance. So both the things play. So NTKM is a word used in railways, NTKM or GTKM gross tonne kilometers. So it's a function of these 2 things. So I don't know what is your specific question. So if we multiply this...

Sorry to just come between, basically lead distance would have gone up, right? Because Nepal got added and a few long lead distance has gotten added. In that context...

Yes. If you see in detail, the tonnage has fallen in this Q1. Railway tonnage has fallen by 3.3%. Our tonnage in EXIM has fallen by 1.8%. The reason is the heavy cargo, which is metal scrap, iron scrap, aluminum scrap, machinery parts, they have not come. So even number of containers have increased, but the weight carried, that is heavy weight cargo has not come. So that is the main reason for fall in tonnage as well as fall in -- not that much commensurate realization because we have carried light cargo. Heavy cargo is now coming because of disruption in shipping services. Some cargo is coming, some is held up, it comes later on. So like that, it is there. Plus this scrap and all this cargo is impacted because of the international prices. If international prices increase, then the scrap import also comes down. So those factors also play an important role. So if you see the tonnage has fallen down. So that is the reason of fall in realization.

Just a second question from my side, sir. These transit assurance rakes that are going to become more mainstream, could you give us a sense of when they have happened in the past? Has CONCOR been able to get a combination of both higher volumes and higher margins? And if some quantification you can put around those numbers?

See as of now, we are running assured transit train on domestic circuit between Delhi and Kolkata with stopover at Agra and Kanpur. So this has given us additional business. As far as financials are concerned, for this particular movement, I don't have with me right now. But we have got additional business that has been diverted from road to rail. Similarly, another assured transit train we are running from our MMLP at Dadri to Mundra Port, which is also giving us very good volumes and diversion has taken place from road to rail. Similarly, for this also, separate financials for this movement, I don't have with me. Now another transit -- assured transit will start from October between Dadri to JNP, which will further give us more volumes.

The next question is from the line of Priyankar Biswas from JM Financial.

So this is Priyankar from JM. My first question is, sir, recently, we have heard in the news that there is a lot of flooding, especially on beyond the Dahanu and also in Gujarat lakes. So has there been any significant impact at least on our cargo volumes because of that? I mean, because of this incident?

Yes. In Q1, we were impacted by heavy rains because there were heavy rains in Mumbai, you must have read in the news in the month of June. Because of that, there were disruption in train services, and it had -- our volumes would have been more -- so that was the impact in month of June. Now in the month of July, very rightly, you have pointed out, there is a heavy rains and flooding in Gujarat area, and that has definitely impacted our cargo movement in the month of July, but that is in Q2. So that impact you will see in Q2. But we hope that this rains are there, but the railway is also working. They repair the tracks very quickly, very efficiently. And we are quite hopeful that normalcy will come, and we will again resume our services.

So sir, when you are giving the guidance of 15% EXIM growth, so you would have baked in this flood impact in Gujarat and maybe the impact of rains in Maharashtra in late June. So I think this is baked, right?

I have taken this into account. Normally, the cargo, which has to be sent, it has to be sent. Once there is a flood and all road movement also is not possible. So -- and rail is more reliable movement. So definitely, it will be -- impact will be there, but that will be temporary. It will not be a permanent impact on the cargo movement.

And sir, one more thing. Like if I remember in the past few calls, we had provided an emphasis for better customer services to improve our first mile and last mile services. So can you say that how much part of your containers today that you are moving is covered under first mile, last mile? And what is your target, let's say, by end of FY '27 or FY '28? Some ballpark?

Yes. Now the thing is that 3 years back, we were having only 10% cargo that we were able to give first mile last mile to our customers. Till at the end of FY '26, this number has gone up to 46%. So 46% cargo, we are able to give service to our customers for first mile, last mile. For rest 54%, customers are arranging the first mile, last mile movement themselves. Now for this FY '27, we have set up a target of 80%. From 46%, we move to 80%. By FY '28, 100%. So that is our target. That's a huge value addition for our customers. Customers are very happy with our services. And they want that everywhere we should give them service of first mile, last mile.

Sir, if I can just squeeze one more in. Traditionally, you used to give us the rail coefficient by ports and also the market share at the port. So can you give us for JNPT, Mundra and Pipavav?

Yes, I can give you. In JNPT for Q1, rail coefficient was 14.13% and our market share was 62.6%. Last year, it was rail coefficient 15.5% market share was 58%. So there is a big growth in market share in JNPT. And Mundra, last year, the rail coefficient was 24.7%. This year, it is 24.5%, almost same. But our market share has slightly dipped from 36% to 34%. In Pipavav, the rail coefficient is same, 55% share is also same, 48.8%. This year, it is 48.2%.

The next question is from the line of Koundinya from Jefferies.

Sir, just the first question, just trying to reconcile. If we look at the rail volume growth from FOIS, it appears that the volumes for the industry declined by about 4%, while your volumes were at around 2%. I mean, just trying to understand the math behind this. I mean, obviously, it looks good. So where the difference looks like partly tonnage, which you explained in one of the conversations earlier, if you can elaborate a bit on that? And secondly, within that, July also looks like about 8%, 9% decline when I look at the data. So how should we look at the volumes for you in that context?

See, first, I would like to clarify that July month is still running. It is still not complete. So it is premature to comment on July. For Q1, I can comment. Q1, as I explained earlier, the container growth is there in percentage terms. But in tonnage terms, the growth is not there in railway also has experienced 3.3% negative growth as compared to container -- ISO containers and 5.4% negative growth in domestic. The primary reason is that light commodities have moved in the containers. Heavy commodities have not moved. That is the primary reason for decrease in tonnage.

Understood. Sir, given the way the global freight rates are, should we expect a similar trend to continue in the near term, especially given heavy cargo also constitutes the metal scrap, et cetera?

I don't think so because the heavy commodities metal scrap and then machinery, machine parts is also there. So maybe because of the conflicts happening around the world. Sometimes some containers come quickly, some containers are stuck up some transshipment points. So they will be coming in due course. So I think in overall, if you see on an annual basis, it will all balance out.

Got it, sir. Sir, my second question is on your market share at JNPT. Obviously, you did well this quarter. So what is it that you did differently, which helped this market share gain? And then obviously, DFC will benefit outside that? Or what are the other levers that are at hand, which can help you sustain this market share gain?

See, actually, we introduced a lot of new products. One of the product was the Aushadhi Express, Pharma Express that we started between Hyderabad to JNP. And it was all refrigerated containers cargo, along with Maersk, we have started. So that has given us new line of business. It has been quite well received. Similarly, we started export service from Whitefield that is Bangalore to JNPT. Initially, we started with 1 train per week. Now it has moved to 3 trains per week. Such a good demand is there. And we focused on speedy clearance from JNPT and our imports are being cleared. We are focusing on a dwell time of 35 hours. Right now, we are not able to achieve that. But in the near future, import dwell time, we want to bring down to 30, 35 hours, which is the benchmark given by NITI Aayog also. So the speedy clearance of imports and focusing on new products. These are 2 major reasons of our increase in market share at JNPT.

Got it, sir. Sir, if I may ask a couple of bookkeeping questions. Can you help us with the empty running costs...

Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Koundinya, but can you please rejoin the queue? The next question is from the line of Krishnendu Saha from Quantum AMC.

Sir, just wanted to understand some economics of JNPT. Sir, how many trains are we doing right now from JNPT?

JNPT, we are doing around 11 to 12 trains every day CONCOR.

And after DFC comes in, say, suppose about in next year, when we are full fledged on, how many trains would those convert to double -- means from a DFC double stack train?

See, number of trains would also increase when DFC comes, and many of them will be double stacked. So you can say around -- we will be doing around 15 to 18 trains per day from JNPT.

Double stack?

No, no, not double stack. All will not be double stacked. So about 15 trains are -- we are doing, sorry?

Okay. No, I was just trying to understand the economics. So if we're doing 11, 12 right now per day, single stack come next year post December, when the DFC is fully functional and we have no hiccups, how many double stacks will be doing compared to 11, which is single stack right now?

Okay. Right now, we are not doing any double stack. And once in next December, you mean from 1.5 years from now?

No, no. Next December means '27 January, say, '27 January.

You are asking a forecast for '27 January.

So let me rephrase that question. So right now, we're not doing any double stacking. We're doing single stacking to say 11 trains right now. And say, come December '26 or January '27, of this 11, how many can be converted to double stacking on the DFC?