CTS Eventim AG & Co. KGaA (EVD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to the CTS Eventim Fiscal Year 2024 Earnings Call. Today, you have Holger Hohrein, Group CFO; and myself, Marco Haeckermann, on the call. Holger will now talk you through the presentation of the last fiscal year. And after that, we are happy to take your questions. And without further ado, I hand over to Holger.

Thank you, Marco. Warm welcome also from my end, and let's start right away with our key takeaways for 2024. We have seen a strong industry momentum remaining, resulting in a strong double-digit growth, both for revenues and EBITDA. This results in a dividend proposal for EUR 1.66 per share. Drivers for this strong performance in 2024 were all elements of our value chain, ticketing, live entertainment and venue management. We have also added 2 new members to the family in 2024. We have acquired See Tickets in summer last year and have started consolidating those entities in June. And we have finally started consolidating France Billet in December '24 with a majority share now of 65%. And we have a positive outlook for further growth in 2025 despite all the macroeconomic and political challenges around the globe. We come to this point then later in the presentation. Now a brief look at some of our KPIs. Revenues went up by 19.1% in 2024. Adjusted EBITDA, even by almost 22%. EBIT went up by only 9.5% year-on-year. Why only 9.5%? We will explain in a minute. Online tickets went up almost 25%, and this is all without See Tickets numbers, and we will come to this point later throughout the presentation also. Tickets outside Germany went up 29.2% year-on-year, and the growth in ticketing was even stronger in international markets. Again, this number is still without See Tickets, and we will explain in a minute. Record dividend, as already mentioned, we proposed to the general shareholders' meeting, a dividend of EUR 1.66 per share. This is a record dividend, and we continue our dividend policy of 50% of our reported group net profit. And this results in a long-term CAGR of 18% for our dividend. Let's now look at -- briefly at some group numbers. Here on this slide, you see on the left-hand side, you see revenues, adjusted EBITDA and margin and EBIT. We see revenue went up by 19% year-on-year. And this, again, as already said, driven by all elements of our value chain by all segments. And adjusted EBITDA went even higher at 22% versus previous year, which resulted in an increase in EBITDA margin of 19.3%, which is even higher than the previous 2 years, which were already strong years after the Corona pandemic. As already mentioned, EBIT only went up only by 9% or 9.5% to be precise. And the reason for this is the number of nonrecurring effects we had last year, so 2023, which were adjusted in the adjusted EBITDA, but obviously not in the EBIT. And you might remember those effects resulted from the compensation of the [indiscernible] project, which we settled -- which was settled in summer 2023, which around roughly EUR 40 million. And I think another EUR 9 million, EUR 10 million were still some Corona compensations -- related compensations. Let's now have a closer look at the fourth quarter specifically. Here on the next page, again, revenues and adjusted EBITDA and margin. The fourth quarter was a record quarter, both in terms of revenues and adjusted EBITDA was the highest quarterly numbers ever. Revenue went up 29% year-on-year and adjusted EBITDA even 40% year-on-year. Again, driven by all segments, but especially driven by ticketing business in the fourth quarter, we come to this in a second. EBITDA margin stood at 28.1% in the fourth quarter. Now let's jump in both of our segments, and we start with ticketing. Here on this slide, again, you can see a very strong Q4. Overall, we ended the last year with revenues of EUR 880 million and EUR 315 million of which already alone in the last quarter after EUR 258 million in the previous year's quarter -- fourth quarter. So this strong growth results from growth from business in Germany and international markets. Adjusted EBITDA came out at EUR 470 million for the entire year with EUR 176 million alone for the fourth quarter, again, highest number ever we had in the fourth quarter. The driver behind, obviously, is the number of tickets, which you will see here on the next slide. On the left-hand side, you can see the ticket number and number of online tickets quarter-by-quarter. In the fourth quarter, you can see year-on-year, the number went up by 27%. We came out at 36 million online tickets. On the right-hand side, you see the distribution across the regions. And the share of international markets has further increased. We now made 64 -- or purchased or sold 64 million tickets in international markets or 62% of overall online ticket number. Again, all numbers still without See Tickets, and I will explain why on the next page. So with the acquisition of See Tickets in summer 2024, we strengthened our market position, especially in the U.K. and the U.S. and enhance our product and service spectrum, especially in the partner business. Partner business means this business is also done online via web shops, but as opposed to own channels. Here, the partner branding is used, and this is not event in experience, but it's a partner branding. It's the partner's customer base. And typically, this is what we also sometimes refer to as a white label business. And See Tickets is especially strong in this business. Our online ticket number, as reported before, did not comprise all of our tickets sold online so far. What was included in the past were all tickets sold online via our event in own channels, event in experience, but which was not included in the so-called partner business, which we also did in the past, but to a lesser extent. And now with the acquisition of See Tickets, this share has obviously increased a lot. And going forward, we will now report tickets, and we will change the metric to retail tickets, and we will now report all tickets sold via event in both through -- via our own channels and via partner channels, the so-called partner business. And here on the right-hand side, you can see how this turns out in numbers. Starting -- or a starting point would be 2023. You know obviously the number 80 -- 83 million online tickets, which we have reported last year. And as said, we already did -- so far also partner business. And in total, according to the new metric, we would end up with slightly more than 100 million tickets in a new currency, so to say. In 2024, this translates, including See Tickets and including the partner business, which we did in the past already results in 147 million retail tickets, which is now the currency going forward. We introduced a new metric, which you can find at the bottom of this page, which is gross transaction value or GTV. In 2023, we had a gross transaction value of EUR 5.6 billion. And in 2024, we came out with EUR 7.7 billion gross transaction value. Gross transaction value basically means it's the ATP, the average ticket price plus all our fees we earn when selling a ticket. Now a brief look on our second segment, which is Live Entertainment. Here, again, you can see revenues and adjusted EBITDA. Same picture, almost EUR 2 billion in revenues, strongest fourth quarter ever with EUR 477 million in revenues, 18% up year-on-year. The driver were especially the European live portfolio, but also venue business or venue operations played an important role. For the entire year, we came out with revenues more than EUR 100 million for our venues we operate. We operate quite a number of -- quite renowned venues, Waldbühne, LANXESS arena and a few others. And we felt it's important to disclose a couple of numbers, important numbers for you to understand the importance of this business. Adjusted EBITDA came out at EUR 126 million, EUR 44 million alone in the fourth quarter. Again, the strongest number ever in the fourth quarter. And here, again, especially profitable were Germany and Italy. For the venue business, you can find here a number around EUR 50 million. It's actually slightly more than EUR 50 million profit we made in our venue operations business. So it's not only a perfect addition to our value chain, but it's also a highly profitable business with an EBITDA margin of around 50%, 5-0. Today, we not only publish our '24 financials, but also our nonfinancial group reports in accordance with the CSRD, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive. Although there are some regulatory challenges right now in Germany, the implementation is still missing, still pending. And in parallel, there are quite some discussion on the EU level regarding changes or reliefs. Nonetheless, we have published the report on our web page, and you'll find tons of information there. Please have a look and feel free to then ask also questions on this. We felt it's interesting to come up with a couple of KPIs and maybe some things to mention, which could be interesting for you is the overall greenhouse emission -- greenhouse gas emission in 2024, which was around 1.4 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. On the left-hand side, then you can see the split in the different scopes, Scope 1, 2 and 3. And we have included here fan mobility as the most important factor within Scope 3, which means this is traveling to and from the event of our visitors, which is the major block. In the second column, you see the split of those 1.4 million tonnes by segment. And obviously, the largest portion is in Live Entertainment because the fan mobility obviously belongs to this segment. On the right-hand side, you can then also see additional numbers as greenhouse gas intensity and just one number to remember would be 0.5 kilograms of carbon dioxide equivalent per euro revenues, which is obviously a little bit higher in the live entertainment business and a little bit lower in the ticketing segment. And if you wanted to break this down by other numbers or into other KPIs, you could basically translate this in around 60 kilograms per visitor, per fan or less than 1 kilogram carbon dioxide per ticket, just so by way of example. Again, feel free to have a look at the report. I think it's quite interesting read. This leads me with the outlook as the last page here in the presentation. You can see we are -- or the outlook can be summarized in a few words. Outlook looks good for us despite all the challenges around us. So we are looking positively in the future. We expect moderate, higher revenues, EBITDA and EBIT for the group as a whole as well as for Ticketing segment. Given the high basis for Live Entertainment and the ongoing cost pressure in this segment, we are a little bit more conservative or cautious for the Live Entertainment business. We still expect higher revenues and EBITDA and results in this segment, but we are a little bit more cautious and we see then rather a little bit or closer to the previous year's level, let's say, this way. I think we gave you some indication what moderate means in terms of numbers. So overall, we think this is a quite positive outlook. That's for the moment. And we can summarize again with the key takeaways, but I don't want to go through them again, but maybe we take it as a starting point for your questions.

[Operator Instructions] And the first question goes to Gerhard Orgonas of Berenberg.

Just a question of understanding in the online tickets, for 2024, did you already include France Billet for December?

Yes, we did.

Okay. Perfect. And then maybe an idea of -- I don't know how much visibility for the full year, but in Q1, how the agenda is looking like? I've seen Lady Gaga is being sold in probably in Q2 last year. We had Adele in Q1. Is there -- should we expect a slightly softer Q1 and then an improvement during the year? Or how do you see the developments during the year?

Yes. You are right. Last year, in February, we had AC/DC, and Adele. 2 major onsales. We haven't had -- I mean, we had many, many, many midsized onsales, but not one thing which spiked out, but it's more broad portfolio of midsized and long tail onsales, but it will be a good quarter, but nothing which spiked out as things last year.

And the next question goes to Annick Maas of Bernstein.

So my first question is, I think a few months ago, when you announced the involvement in the Vienna arena, that came somewhat as a surprise. So my question is, I guess, a bit more strategic. Is your business model going forward to be much more focused on venues as well? And can we expect that you will ramp up venues and keep on building up venues in the near term? Or is the Vienna and the MILAN arena really a one-off? My second question is on StubHub. I assume you've seen the filings for the IPO and their interest in also getting a bit more involved in the primary ticketing business. What are your first thoughts on this? And how can that impact you in Europe? And my final question is, you've never really given us synergies for France Billet. You've now seen the business from the inside. Is there a potential for maybe some extra synergies with relation to the France Billet deal?

Yes. Thanks for the question. I think I will start with the third question. Of course, synergies. And I mean we acquired the first stake in France Billet back in 2019, I guess, October 2019, I think, with our 48% stake. And we have already started exploring some synergies. But now being in full control, having now the 65% majority ownership, of course, this gives room for additional opportunities. And yes, this will be the job for the next couple of months and for the next 1 or 2 years. Yes, we see additional synergies there. To the first question regarding the venue business -- so to start with the bottom line message. So owning venues is not our primary objective. So we might not be the best owner for owning concrete and -- venues. But when there are opportunities to develop value and modern types of multipurpose arenas, we are a good partner to be on the table to develop those opportunities and then eventually also to operate those venues. And as shown with the numbers before, operating venues can be quite profitable and quite attractive and can be a perfect addition to our value chain. But again, owning the venues long term is not our primary objective. And will there be additional opportunities? Yes, maybe there might be a few, but it's not -- it's definitely not a shift in our business model, but rather a completion to our business model and will be only selected opportunities whenever there are a few. I think for the second question, maybe, Marco, you could take this one.

Annick, it's Marco. So StubHub, yes, finally, they put the S-1 form out, so they are aiming for an IPO. I mean you probably all had a chance to go through their P&L and see how marketing intensive the secondary business is. With regards to do we expect changes in our markets, first of all, I mean, secondary in Europe in most markets is quite regulated. And in contrast to the U.S., where it hasn't been pretty much regulated for the last 20 years, we see even in the U.S. let's put it, much more regulatory creativity around this segment, because there are ongoing investigations into how the market works. There's, for example, in the state of New York, the idea to provide mandatory transparency about so-called holdbacks, which means that, for example, if a primary ticketer has 100,000 tickets, which they want to sell and if they, on purpose, just make only 50,000 available that they have to disclose this on their website, which has, of course, always been the secret sauce in the U.S. market for the last couple of years of what really fueled the secondary market. So in the U.S., there's a much closer dependency between primary and secondary, which we don't have in Europe because, a, it's broadly regulated; b, because ticket prices are significantly lower, so people in Europe who buy a ticket on the primary market mostly attend the event and don't try to go for a financial bargain and try to resell it, which is why -- yes, as we are all friends in this industry, we wish them all the best, but we don't see any imminent risk coming for us on the horizon here, plus with the latest trends in technologies, I personally am very keen to see of how businesses that are heavily dependent on major marketing spends will take the challenges in the future when we're about to see many more AI agents operating on behalf of the user or consumer behind them. So it will be interesting to see. We are, of course, looking at what is happening there, but we still have a very good night sleep about this IPO.

And the next question goes to Olivier Calvet of UBS.

I just have a couple of questions left. First of all, on France Billet, could you give us some numbers on the France Billet business, the sort of synergies that you would expect or sort of your base case there? Maybe it's too early to say. But secondly, could you also talk a little bit about ticket prices, what they've done year-to-date in volumes in the retail tickets? And thirdly, could you discuss the DSP's efforts into super fund monetization? Are you seeing a share of events that is offered on Spotify or other platforms? Any color there would be appreciated.

Okay. Thank you. France Billet synergies, a little hesitant to come up with a number here -- with a concrete number. But yes, the synergies, if you look at the EBITDA margin the business has today and if we compare this with the overall EBITDA margin we have in the ticketing segment, then we see some room maybe in the range of 10 basis points or 10 percentage points compared to the segment average. So maybe as a first indication. The second question, I wasn't sure if I got this correctly.

On ticket prices, asking for an indication. I mean, on the overall portfolio, the average ticket price is around 55% to 60%. But of course, being affected by our activities to widen basically the portfolio. So further growing into other parts and thereby broadening the mix of our overall inventory, that is the answer you were looking for. And the third question...

That's by the way, the reason why we published the GTV, the gross transaction value, and you'll find this also in our report, and we have it on the slides -- a couple of slides earlier. And if you divide the cross action by the number of tickets, retail tickets will come up in the mid-50s. So what Marco said, around EUR 55. And we will report this -- continue reporting this number going forward. By the way, interesting, if you look at numbers from other players in the market being more stronger in the U.S., you will find those numbers being more in the range of USD 100 or EUR 100. So this indicates there's a room for growth here in Europe as average ticket prices are still relatively low as compared to other markets. And if we -- and obviously, we have indicated this that this is part of our strategy, moving more in Northern America, then this also indicates that there's plenty of room for us to grow.

Just to clarify, sorry, you mean you will publish this going forward on a quarterly basis. And I was also wondering about the volume development you see year-to-date.

Olivier, we will report it with our Q1 numbers, not today. And the GTV we will report on a regular basis, yes. Not sure if we will do on a quarterly basis. I think we will, but we will see fluctuations, of course, I don't know.

Because I mean, when you look at ticketing, of course, where traditionally in the fourth quarter, you sell a relatively high share of higher ASPs tickets. This has, of course, a direct implication on the GTV. So you shouldn't expect that this is a very stable number, of course, over the quarters, particularly that -- I mean, we have seasonalities in both of our business segments, and these would then affect, of course, the GTV on a quarterly or intra-year perspective.

So we will only report if you promise not to ask why the average ticket price has increased by 5% or decreased by 10% quarter-on-quarter.

And the third question was on superfan monetization. Yes, I mean, we see particularly music streaming platforms, of course, trying somehow always to get an angle and to inch closer to the artists, which, of course, I understand. I mean, platforms like Spotify, they compete with platforms like YouTube who have a completely different product and service offering to help the artists monetize their art better. And like in the past, I mean, we cooperate with all of them because, I mean, one thing is what they -- what the streaming platforms advertise. But on the other side, it's always the question of who holds the inventory because it's much more complex to actually sell a ticket rather than just letting people know that there is a band in town and that they might want to go there. It's something which, of course, is interesting to follow, but it's less of importance for us because we are in the ticketing business and streaming platforms. I think it will be interesting to see how Spotify and YouTube will move along. I mean, I think the latest royalty payout stats from YouTube have not been disclosed yet. But if we look over the last couple of years, who gained tremendous momentum, meaning in who paid more out to artists, there is a very interesting development happening. But yes, as much for that, we continue to be a partner. We can still say that this channel is a channel that might sell one or the other ticket, but not to a meaningful extent from our perspective. And this is not particular to us. You see this actually in all other markets as well with all other ticketing companies.

And the next question goes to Andreas Riemann of ODDO BHF.

Two topics. One would be the mobile penetration. So what is the share of mobile tickets right now? I guess it is still a low number. So what can you do to increase that level? And what might be the financial implications from a potentially higher mobile penetration? And the second topic, the financial results, it was quite strong actually in '24. And in general, it's quite volatile over the last few years. So what would be the best assumption for your financial result in '25 or '26 with the knowledge that you have today? That's it from my side.

Okay. I'll start with the first one. The mobile share, I think it's around 5% to 6%, 7%, 8%. What would be your result if the share would increase? Well, the benefit would be you would be on the mobile phone of the end customer and then which gives plenty of opportunities for further monetization. This is on the one hand side, the benefit. Maybe Marco can add to this as well.

I mean, of course, the fundamental shift would be, the more you increase the mobile penetration, which will mean that we will get a direct access to the actual ticket holder instead of just the ticket buyer who usually purchases, I don't know, 2 to 3 tickets, plus that we're really talking about a mobile ticket that ends up in your wallet or in our app. We create a direct link, of course, to that ticket holder, which helps you a lot on better customization, better offerings and so forth and maybe in the end, save a little bit of money on paper, which you don't have to print anymore for invoices or for the ticket itself. So all in all, very important element. But likewise, what we have seen 10 years ago when we were talking about increasing online penetration, it's really -- the bottleneck is not us rolling out the app or basically setting up the technical infrastructure. It's really about what the consumer is opting for, right? And we still see that if you sell tickets for really top acts that when people purchase 2 or 3 tickets and they are about to spend EUR 500 or more for these 3 tickets that they appreciate still in our markets to have a piece of paper, which I don't know, they could put at the fridge instead of having a little bit of digital imagery somewhere on the mobile phone. So we are prepared as the consumer demands are pivoting into more convenient towards mobile ticketing, we have everything there. But we will get there, and it's the question like which we had 10 years ago, is it worth investing more to drive online penetration? It will all come its own way, and then we take advantage of that.

There was a question regarding the financial income, right, finance income and financial expenses. Yes, if you look, we have a breakdown of the financial income and expense on Page 61. And I mean, to a large extent, it consists of interest income, which accounts for roughly 50% of this. And here, you could take -- you have our cash position on balance and you can observe interest rates in the market and you can take some assumption what the interest expense or interest income would be on average, just by doing a simple calculation. There are other components in the interest expense and interest income, which refer to a couple of options we hold or also to consolidation effects due to the full consolidation of France Billet, for instance, prior to consolidation, you had to adjust the fair value of our 48% holding, which results to a financial gain, one second prior to full consolidating. So there are more technical effects and also some other components relating to options we have, where we have the option or the call option or the potential seller has the option to -- have a put option to sell us additional equity on already fully consolidated subsidiaries. Those are rather technical valuation effects. For your models, I would say, a low or midsize double-digit size financial income would be a good estimate going forward.

And the next question goes to Christoph Blieffert of BNP Paribas Exane.

I have 2, please, one on scope and the other one on the U.S. Let's start with the scope question. It would be helpful if you can give us some indication what we can expect from the consolidation of France Billet and See Tickets for EBITDA in your ticketing division in 2025, please?

Yes. We didn't plan to disclose a detailed number for individual subsidiaries. But as an indication of both companies were not fully [indiscernible] consolidated for the entire year 2024. So France Billet was only consolidated for 1 month and beginning of December. You could expect, let's say, rather between EUR 40-ish million in revenues and let's say, EUR 10 million, EUR 15 million in adjusted EBITDA or EBITDA. So we don't plan any adjustments for EBITDA. And for See Tickets as a whole, it's -- we have consolidated in June, so 7 months. And the number for the full year would be rather than maybe additional EUR 10 million adjusted EBITDA. So both together, I would say, from a full year effect coming from those 2 consolidations would be rather in the range of EUR 20 million, EUR 25 million adjusted EBITDA. If this is -- if this was the number you were looking for.

This is helpful. Could you also give us some EBITDA figure for your Punto Ticket business?

Yes. actually, it's not our intention to disclose individual subsidiaries. it's somewhere between EUR 10 million and EUR 20 million.

And so we have some EUR 30 million to EUR 35 million full year consolidation effect coming from those 3 assets?

Well, Chile, Peru, we had already fully consolidated in 2024. So as we acquired them in late '23, end of November '23. So there is no additional consolidation or full year effect in '25.

Yes, that makes sense. Okay. Good. And the second question is on the U.S. My understanding is that you have put some resources in expanding your U.S. business. However, if I look on the revenue contribution coming from the U.S., this trend is rather flat, so some EUR 176 million. Could you give us an idea of what your growth plans in the U.S. are and why it's not growing or hasn't been growing in 2024?

Here's Marco. I'm taking the question. So first of all, initially, we started, of course, with a couple of promoter joint ventures and to participate in the touring business. With the acquisition of See Tickets, we've acquired a subsidiary of the Target Perimeter who is active in the U.S. ticketing space. And of course, as you know, I mean, when you look at our traditional segments that you have a segment that contributes high revenue and another segment that contributes profits with live entertainment and ticketing. So -- and what you've seen is that we -- from the content standpoint, consider that we are very well positioned over there. The focus going forward will be much more on ticketing. So this has nothing to do with a change of plan or our ambition. But of course, we could happily invest more on the content side, which is a relatively low-margin business, and we are doing this for proper profitability and economies of scale, just from a pure strategic perspective, yes.

Okay. Can you give us any indication whether your promoter business in the U.S. is EBITDA positive or negative?

It's a difficult business as it's highly competitive and some of the tours, some of the shows are highly profitable, others are actually loss-making. So on average, it's rather flat.

And the next question goes to Craig Abbott of Kepler Cheuvreux.

Actually, I have several questions, if you don't mind, please. First is just getting back to the venue business. It sounds like you don't have a major pipeline development, which I think most of us would think is a good thing. I just wondered if you could give us an idea of how much capital you're willing to invest there? And if you could give us an update on your search for a majority investor for the MILAN arena. And then I have a couple of more questions, please.

Yes. The search for investor in MILAN is ongoing, and I think we discussed it in January. So we're in the process of structuring this deal and finding the right investors. As I said earlier, it's not our intention to hold those assets on our balance sheet for long term. Regarding the pipeline, I mean, there are always a couple of discussions, but there is no pipeline and there's definitely no -- this is not for us, it's not a pipeline business where we have 10 or 20 deals, which we are looking at, but it's rather opportunity-driven whenever there's an opportunity, then we engage in the discussion and it's definitely less than a handful. So I wouldn't even go so far to say except for MILAN, which is going to be under construction. In Vienna, where we currently are in negotiation of a partnership agreement, there's nothing concrete in the pipeline.

Good. But in the future, would you more likely line up the majority investor in advance before the actual tender process?

I mean -- sorry, it's Marco, Craig. I'm taking this one. [indiscernible], of course, no, I mean, it's not for us that we are too keen on holding bricks-and-mortar on the balance sheet right away. And as we've discussed in previous calls, around the world, you have mayors, you have cities who are looking for more modern infrastructure so that the next time when Taylor Swift is coming around that they could have their interviews and their pictures taken together with them. So everyone fancies this new infrastructure. And of course, in markets where we have strong content through our Live Entertainment business, we are always a preferred party to sit at the table to help designing the venue, with bits and pieces and of course, ideally to be the operator there because we have a very good position in order to make sure that, nights are sold and lots of food and beverage has been turned over. So from that perspective, this is, I would say, where we could provide value. If someone is sitting as well at the table to say, I would love to own this, we would probably not chase them off, right? So in an ideal world, if you look at other developments globally, you have these various parties sitting at the table, which is why, of course, our focus remains on operating these venues and not owning them. And the earlier we can optimize these kind of capital allocations, the better it is.

Okay. Next questions are on the mobile share just following up from earlier. I was -- well, in the past, you talked about how your average take per ticket would actually probably be considerably higher than even just pure online ticket sales. I wonder if you could give us an update on how that average take looks. And I was under the impression that the artists and promoters would more be driving the growth in that mobile share. And therefore, I'm a little bit surprised it's not already higher. If you could give us some color on that. And then I have just a couple more real quick.

I mean we have to distinguish here between whether someone is just purchasing an app, but it's still being delivered as a paper ticket and whether we're really talking about a digital token that has been wired to someone's app or wallet, where we have the case what I've laid out earlier that we have a direct connection to the actual ticket holder, so which then opens the door to better marketing and better personalization opportunities, which is, of course, always in favor of the promoter and the artist. But on the other hand, like I said earlier, when you provide various options of how the fan can decide which mode of delivery or ticket mode they would appreciate, this is then still dependent about where they have the best consensus between convenience or whether they are mobile savvy in the first place. And this is the element which will play out over time for us. And of course, if we have particular events that should only be sold as a mobile ticket, then we'll do this. But this is, of course, much more a topic for top shows due to various aspects. And the rest is, of course, much more dependent about which option appears mostly convenient for the fan and what they choose.

Okay. But is your average take -- okay, we can get that later. Yes, on See Tickets, part of the deal which you took over the festivals portfolio, my understanding has been basically Garorock is quite profitable, but others are not. And my impression would you be cleaning up this portfolio, maybe even choosing one or the other where you could leverage your flow -- your tour flow to improve the offering. Could you maybe give us an update on what measures you're taking to improve the profitability on the festival side or the event side at See Tickets? And then one more.

So I mean, we basically are in the middle of that process. So we track performances. We look at to which extent there is a chance to turn one or the other format around. But there is definitely some adjustments to that portfolio ongoing.

Okay. And then just getting back on ticketing, part of this is just the audio was a little bit unclear at least on my end earlier regarding the earlier question on Q1. [indiscernible], you have some base effects. Correct me if I misunderstood it. My understanding was we should expect a rather modest growth in ticketing in Q1 due to the high base with the [indiscernible] so forth. And then kind of like a normal year-on-year trend in Q2 and Q3 and then a stronger into Q4? And if you -- in line with that answer, if you could kind of talk -- give us some color at least on how your pipeline looks for the full year.

So the summary was quite perfect, you gave, and there's nothing to add. This is how we plan the year to be in ticketing. And regarding the pipeline, I mean, as you know, there's not much lead time for many things and difficult to say what will be on sale in December this year. So difficult to say, for me, at least. I don't know if Marco has have any more insights what's coming in the summer.

I would love to know.

We would love to know on sale in December. It's hard to predict. And -- but the good thing is we sell overall -- in ticketing segment, we sell almost 1 million events. So it's really the breadth of the portfolio, which drives the business and drives the numbers, and it's not the individual show we are depending on.

Okay. And my very last question, please. I missed the first couple of minutes call because I jumped over from another call. So I do apologize to everyone if you've already said this in your opening comments. But I think you were referring to -- you had -- give us some insights on what you understand on the moderate. If you -- if you did, if you could repeat that, I would be very grateful.

Yes. So moderate means in our terms, internal increase of between 5% to 15%. So of course, we want to -- I mean, as usual, at the beginning of the year, we are a little bit more conservative regarding our guidance. But of course, we want to -- we would love to see the EUR 3 billion in revenues end of the year and maybe the EUR 600 million in EBITDA end of the year, so which is pretty much in line with the consensus -- over the consensus. So you do not have sleep at night looking at the current consensus.

Okay. Since we didn't receive any further questions, let me hand back over to your host for some closing remarks.

Yes. Thank you very much for your time and all of your questions and joining us in on this year's conference call, earnings call, and we wish you all a very pleasant and happy rest of the day. So speak to you soon. Bye.

Bye-bye.