DocuSign, Inc. (DOCU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Thank you, all, for being here. This is our 40th Growth Stock Conference at William Blair, so a milestone we're very, very proud of. My name is Bhavan Suri, I'm at the analyst that covers DocuSign here at William Blair. And you can find the appropriate disclosures on our website at www.williamblair.com. Today, it's a great honor and pleasure to have Dan Springer, who's the CEO of DocuSign, with us. I've known the company from early days when Keith was building it out and growing the business, and Dan has built it and transformed the business into something broader than just eSignature. Dan, Annie's not on, but thank you both for joining us and the support you've shown Blair over the years. So we appreciate that.

I think this is a 30-minute fireside chat, so I'm just going to start off at a high a level. Dan, as you think about this, just tell us a little bit about the base of DocuSign, which I know a lot of investors think of it just as a signature tool that you sign maybe a mortgage statement or something with, and what it's brought into today, which is more of a platform and potentially this idea of essentially being the rails around identity management, the vision of something broader. So maybe take us through that trajectory, the path that you guys are taking and where it might lead to in the future.

Absolutely. And Bhavan, thanks for having us. My view is, I think, you've sort of nailed it with your question. DocuSign became known as the e-signature company and synonymous almost with e-signature. And I think it was Forrester who did a report at one point, said DocuSign has become a verb, to DocuSign something. And that's the foundation. We're still proud of it. And by the way, we think there's a massive growth opportunity ahead in the e-signature side of our business, full stop. But we also, in talking to our customers, came to understand that there was sort of a broader agreement process that they were going through, and they not only need to route around and sign agreements. But they need to generate those agreements in an efficient and thoughtful way that's integrated with their other services that they have and the software that they use. And after they got them signed, they usually had to kick off other things where they might -- an example might be a payment or some other action that would occur once an agreement was signed. And then once they've started to build a digital capability with their signatures, they need a way to manage that sort of entire set of their agreements. So we talk about that as preparing agreements, signing agreements, acting on agreements and then managing your agreements going forward. And we call that whole process with that functionality the DocuSign Agreement Cloud. Increasingly, over time, we think most of our customers will want to engage with us on that broader piece, although I still think signature will be the entry point where most companies will get into that overall agreement process. And one of the reasons why is because we've seen this from a lot of other folks in that ecosystem, they say, DocuSign's leadership in e-signature has made the rest of that ecosystem possible because we don't have an ability to take in digital signature, there really isn't a way to manage all the other processes online in a thoughtful way. So that's kind of a little bit of the background of where we're going with the agreements.

All right. That's really helpful. And so I think what we'll do -- in addition to that is maybe touch on the TAM. So a lot of people sign their documents and they think, oh, yes, the mortgage industry is penetrated. So DocuSign has probably captured a lot of the market. And I sort of use an analogy that there's 7 million homes roughly sold in the U.S. a year, but there's like 57 million students. And they haven't even started signing their contracts with signature. I guess we'll have to think about construction. So I'd love for you to talk a little bit from a granular perspective, not just sort of the Gartner numbers and things like that, but about how you view the TAM. I mean all the workflows that existed could potentially benefit, just even from eSignature.

Yes. Yes, it's interesting. So TAM's a tricky one in this space because it is a relatively new space. So when we did our IPO road show, we actually had done an analysis. I thought it was super thoughtful. I wish I could take credit for it. It was done before I joined. It was the analysis -- the structure have been done beforehand, which was to take a look at by industry, by geography, so with a vertical, what country it's in. And then we would take a look at the size of the customers, so the bank is a big bank or a small bank. And we looked at each of those companies kind of in the world and said, which of these segments do they fall into? Their geography, their vertical and their size. And then we looked at where we have been successful in penetrating a customer pretty well and we sort of said, well, that's the opportunity. We could get all of the large telco companies in Europe to where we got Vodafone, and we could get all of the large banks to where we got BofA in the U.S. If we took a look at those and said, that would be the opportunity, how much TAM is there? We came up with about a $25 billion TAM for looking at the eSignature business. So when we went public, that's what we went out and talked about it. And then we actually went from public and brought in a third-party management consulting firm to come in and do sort of a top-down analysis, they came out with a very surprisingly similar number than we did. I think they had less sort of thoughtful granularity to that assessment, but they were just looking at sort of total economic activity and thinking about it more, again, tops-down. But it gave us confidence it was a reasonable number. Because the Agreement Cloud and the additional functionality, I think, will roughly double that opportunity when you look at those preparing agreements, taking those actions and managing them, and we're starting to make some progress we'll talk more in a second about some of the areas where we're seeing real good progress. That's kind of how we've looked at the opportunity. But in terms of penetration, our revenue just crossed $1 billion on an annual basis this quarter. And so we're 4% penetrated on the $25 billion in eSignature, and we're the dramatic market share leader in this space. So the point is it's very early innings in this game even in signature, much less the rest of the Agreement Cloud, which is far less developed and penetrated. So that's how we kind of think about the TAM. And then the other thing that we sometimes do is we look at use cases to give you a feeling for that. And if you look at a customer like Microsoft, where they really adopted DocuSign well. They have hundreds, right, over 300 use cases that they are using DocuSign for. Most of our customers, a vast, vast, vast majority of our customers have fewer than 5 use cases. The most common number of use cases is 1. As someone who got to that first, but I think because we're growing fast, there's a lot of new customers. They start off with 1 great use case. Once they get adoption, we come back, we land and then we expand. So when you get a sense that a good-sized company, given the hundreds of use cases, and most people have fewer than 5 use cases, you can see how light the penetration is even for the companies that we want to really enter. We have about 661,000 as of our last earnings announcement, total number of customers, which is a lot. It sounds like a good starting point. But when you look at the number of businesses out there, we actually have a point of view that virtually every business should want to use DocuSign in their -- in running the company, from the smallest SMB up to the largest Fortune 500. So hopefully that gives you a flavor of how we think about it.

No. I think that was great. I mean just coming at it in multiple ways, hopefully, gives some of the investors on the phone -- on the line a sense of how big this could be. I think the example within the existing base is perfect. So let's look at the competition. I'm not going to ask the obvious one because I don't really care, but the more important one, I think, is it's a really big market. It's almost a new category. It effectively is a new category. Why do you think it hasn't been targeted more aggressively? Like what's the biggest moat stopping Adobe or whoever -- Dropbox might have -- I think Dropbox bought someone that's kind of like...

HelloSign.

Yes, there's a small company in Italy. I guess as I think about this, like what's the moat? What have you built that -- I'm a VC, I've got $100 million or I've got $20 million to get to that point, says, hey, I don't want to touch this space because of DocuSign. Yes, I'd love to understand that thought process.

It's a really interesting topic, and I tell you, when I joined less than 4 years ago, I was asking myself that question, asking people trying to understand it because it did feel -- it felt to me strange that there weren't sort of more folks coming at it. So a couple of thoughts that made sense to me. The first one is, it's still very early days, and when we talk about competition, we actually like to say somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Paper is our competition. We're going after paper and manual processes. So it's not like we spend a lot of time thinking about other companies in this space, and there aren't a ton, but even the ones that are there, as you mentioned, they're there, but we don't really put -- it's greenfield focus much more than trying to take them away from somebody else. But I think there's a couple investments that DocuSign made upfront. They turned out to be critical to that really strengthening that leadership position. First one is that we made a massive investment in infrastructure such that we can provide incredible uptime. So we can give people 99.999% uptime with no maintenance windows, which in the SaaS base is quite unusual. It's one of the reasons we do most of our data centers are our own, we can't get the public cloud providers to give us that same availability. And so when you look about some of the big institutions, big banks, big telcos, health care, life sciences companies, they're running kind of around the clock and they're doing agreements internal and external around the clock, around the week, they can't really have downtime, and just sort of like you can't sign agreements right now. If you're trying to buy a house or you're doing a big sales contract with somebody and the system were down, it would be very difficult for people to want to come back to us. So other people, I think, looked at that investment and go, wow, that's going to be a hard thing to make available. Second thing is also around security. We made huge investments in our infrastructure and what we've built out to create a secure environment as sort of what passes the muster of the Fortune 500 companies. If you're serving SMB, you wouldn't need to make those same kind of investments and get them comfortable. We're now FedRAMP certified. That's the U.S. government coming in and saying, yes, this is secure enough for government business. So I think that's another big investment. One that I missed upfront but I think is important is partners. So DocuSign did something -- I don't want to say unprecedented, but I haven't seen the same level of major technology company partners. So if you think about -- I'll give you just a mix, SAP, Salesforce.com, Microsoft, Google, Intel, I mean the list goes on, but just take those kind of companies as a foundation, all of them use DocuSign. All of them have some go-to-market partnership like a reseller type partnership for DocuSign. And all of them, when we were private, invested in DocuSign. And to have all those competitive companies sort of in that same ecosystem was powerful. And I think in a lot of ways, we became like Switzerland, and so when you talk about entry, it's true there might be small businesses and VCs might fund someone, it's hard to fund them to go after the enterprise because there's just so much infrastructure required. So they're more likely to go after SMB, as some people have done. It's just it's a long road. Now when you think about competition, when I look at the ecosystem, that's where I spend all my time. Is someone starting something new, maybe a different kind of business model, some kind of totally different approach, why they could ever convince people to not use the standard of DocuSign. But if they came up with a different model, that will be a real potential threat. So we spent all our time when we're thinking -- we can be paranoid a little bit even though we have that big leadership function, looking where someone might be coming up from the bottom with a different kind of business model. That's about the only place I see. I don't see sort of those big technology companies saying, now I want to enter this market. I want to go try to build a competitor of DocuSign. They've already been a partner. They've integrated us. We're going to market together. It's not impossible, of course, but it puts a big deterrent, I think. And then also, if you realize who the other companies' kind of an ecosystem are, if you decide and say, SAP decides we're going to go do our own, they're now sort of saying, we're building this lead just to try to get people to look at our new system, everyone else is using DocuSign. So all those other tech companies can be highly motivated to crush their efforts. So I think that gives us a sense, it makes it hard for anyone to be the one that wants to jump out in terms of competitive.

There's a role, I think, also to be played with the fact that you now have these documents that are living, breathing documents. It's not a one-off sign off. A lot of your competitors have this one-off sign off approach, which is fine, I can replace that easily. But if the document is a contract that has LIBOR plus 1 in it, and you have to change it over time or it's a contract where -- about sales cloud and service cloud, and I got some contract here and I get some discount here and it changes every year, hopefully expand. Help us understand sort of the value of the moat that's provided by owning that contract and the life cycle and lifetime of the contract. Would you do it through acquisition or maybe talk about the acquisition a bit, too.

Yes. Well one of the interesting things is if you think about the overall Agreement Cloud, we think make -- to sort of take your point and almost exponentially, which is one, we've built this concept that we are holding all those agreements that you have, and we're storing them in this really safe way for you. And then on top of that, we say, hey, we're actually going to look at the integrations that you have across your business. And what a lot of people realize is they -- most people who use DocuSign, they're signers, right? So they get something from someone else and they sign it. I mean that's really easy. And they assume that the other person just sent them an agreement, someone logged into our Web or mobile platform and send an e-mail. But 2/3 of our agreements are embedded and they come from an API call. So no person is right. People have built the process into their business to automatically generate DocuSign agreement. And so once you sort of set those, it's pretty sticky. And so it'd be difficult for someone to come in and say, let me rebuild all of those internal processes and integration. So I think that's part of it. And the other piece you mentioned, Bhavan, that I think is important is this idea of moving towards smarter contracts. An example you gave was like the LIBOR and when -- we have a lot of clients, big banks coming to us saying, we need to find all the agreements we've ever done, either with DocuSign or elsewhere with a LIBOR because we've got to change as that rate goes away. That's actually we call -- that's actually a line of business for us right now. We talk about LIBOR as a product that people need. And so we bought Seal Software, just closed last month in May. We've already been selling with them, and we're actually really excited to take that advanced analytics and make that available to all DocuSign customers across our Agreement Cloud offering, and we think that's going to be a hugely popular piece. But I like where you were going around with what I call smart contracts. As we get more and more of these agreements being built with data terms as opposed to fixed terms, the variable is super powerful. And one that we demoed at our last conference was the idea of the crop insurance, right, where someone says, I want a simple way to do this. And if it's above 90 degrees in Kansas in June, that, that's going to trigger a payment from insurance. And therefore, it just runs itself. They don't have to think about it, they don't have to remember where to go back and collect it. It's a built-in always on system. I think that future of smarter contracts you're asking about is going to become a big part of our future.

Yes. No, that's very, very cool. You touched a little bit on international briefly. Let's talk about it. I mean, obviously, you grew incredibly well, 46%, I think it was, internationally in the April quarter. Just as you think about the countries, I'd love to understand how you think about that international expansion. Some of it is lateral. Some of your largest customers are pulling you internationally. Obviously, the brand is taking off like everyone, it's becoming that verb you talked about, but what are your particular -- DocuSign's push efforts to grow internationally?

Yes. So I think there's a couple of things. One is we have an SMB business, the web and mobile practice, and we actually sell to over 150 countries when people just come to us from around the world, and that will always be a part of our business. Keep in mind that the SMB portion of our business is a little less than 15% of our revenue. So that won't transform the business for international. It's going to have to be direct sales as well. When you think about international for global for DocuSign, you have to start off with the idea of there's common law and civil law countries. In common law countries -- and this has to go to identity, I know a topic that you've been thoughtful about for a lot of years. Common law countries are basically people who participate in the Commonwealth Games or at one point were connected to the United Kingdom as they built out that Commonwealth. So that's the U.S., it's the U.K., that's Canada, that's Australia, New Zealand. These are kind of the companies -- countries rather, where people have that same common law legal setup and most of the things around approvals and identity are pretty much the same. The rest of the world is called civil law countries. And it's different in each country. But if you're in Western Europe, if you're in Germany, if you're in France, if you're in Japan, you're in Brazil, it's kind of across the globe, most guys have a civil law. And each one of them is a little bit different, but they have a different type of identity requirements in their contract law. And so we were actually, quickly, most of our growth happened with common law countries. Not unusual for software companies to go to the U.K. and go to Australia and Canada as they leave the U.S., but it was particularly sensible for us because it was the same model. And then several years back, DocuSign did a couple of acquisitions, 1 in France, 1 in Israel, 1 in Brazil. Small, small companies, very little revenue, but to get some technology and some domain expertise on the civil law countries. So where our growth today is still highest in our substance, and our size is the biggest in the common law countries. We are putting feet on the street now in 8 countries and aggressively. We also have a European headquarters in Dublin that's selling by telesales across all of Europe. And that's kind of our macro approach has been to continue in following those countries. I think the interesting question for us is how aggressive do we go in opening new? We've taken this attitude of focus and saying, we don't want to put people in 25 countries and sink or swim. Let's try to nail these countries and move on. We have had good growth, as you said. I think -- while I think the growth rates are good, I think our penetration with only 18% of our revenue right now coming outside of the U.S. indicates we've got a lot more to do. And I won't say it's an indication, I don't feel I've been as successful as I'd like in leading the international expansion. I think at this stage, costing over $1 billion, we should be more like 25% or even approaching 30% share. And the challenge -- I mean, again, it's a high-class problem, but our U.S. business has grown pretty fast. So if you do the math, we had 46% internationally, but it was like 38%, 39% in the U.S. So it's hard to distance that too much. We need to double down. We need to figure out more aggressive ways to turbocharge that international opportunity.

No, I appreciate that. I do want to touch on COVID-19. I know we only spoke whatever was a week ago on earnings, and you've sort of talked about the benefits, and we discussed some work like the PPP maybe or some of the loan programs is project-based. But that's been offset by huge traction in certain verticals or use cases. I know many of the people on the phone may not have heard those. So I'd love for you to talk about the positive impact. And again, not saying COVID is a positive thing, but just the impact it's had in your business, both partially from a negative perspective, mortgages are down, but then refinancing obviously has picked up. So the verticals that really are doing well that you may not have penetrated as much, but now realizing the critical nature of what you offer.

Yes. So I think that's -- and I think the answer is, at the high level, we've been very, very successful with some of our core industries who have actually grown aggressively, as you said, so financial services, health care, life sciences, a lot of government use cases. And a lot of those are actually very COVID-19-related, right, where people have actually said that they need to do things like the SBA administration. Those need -- the banks need to get those distributed into businesses. And we also have government agencies who have needed to get things installed for folks where they actually have things like unemployment checks that need to get out to people. They haven't had a facility for doing that. They're now in a work-from-home setting, how do they figure out a way to do that. So there's a lot of things like that, that did actually increase our growth in the last quarter because of COVID-19. At the same time, we've also seen travel and hospitality industries pull back. We've actually seen some small businesses hit real headwinds. And one of our concerns in the future, some of those small businesses might not be able to almost survive the fallout -- the economic fallout. And so we know that could be a future headwind for us as well. Net-net, as we talked about it, while it was terrible for our employees who have to all work from home, we feel terrible for the people who have been impacted by this horrible pandemic. But yet in the quarter, we actually saw some increase in activity at DocuSign because of the fallout.

Yes. No, it always amaze me, my son cut his eye, Christmas Day, so we end up in the ER in suburb of Chicago. And they make me put my name on an iPad to register when you walk in the ER, but all the forms are on paper. None of this makes sense. It's amazing watching that transformation happen. It took COVID to make us realize that automation would drive better health outcomes. But interesting. Let's touch on the financials vertical, specifically. It's come up a lot. People are concerned that because there's fewer transactions happening, fewer deals happening, fewer new account openings happening, it might impact you. But what we've also seen, and I'll make this a more general question, we've seen a cottage industry of people using and embedding DocuSign in more complex workflow. And I'd love for you to talk about where that is today in terms of penetration and use case and where you think that might be in 5 years down the road, as a driver -- Salesforce has tons of guys building on force.com, this should be a similar effect for you guys. I would love for you to walk us through what that might look like for the long term.

Yes. So I think you're spot on, and I made the reference earlier to the API part of our business. And I probably should have talked through that in a little more detail because it plays right into your question. When you think about that part of the business that are integrations, they come to a couple of buckets. Some are the big companies, Salesforce.com, people integrate their SFA tools, CRM into DocuSign. So now when a salesperson says, I want to send a contract to somebody, they're actually completely integrated. They send out that contract, they can track and watch who signed it, where it is along the process. Once it closes, it's a bidirectional feed and it updates back into their Salesforce software that's now a closed deal. And it also can trigger an API to say, you know what, turn on their software. So we turn on the software if it's a SaaS business, and I could use Salesforce as an example because Salesforce is a big user of ours, now their reps have sent that out, it turns on Salesforce and they can automate and start the billing process. So those kinds of integrations, I think, are a big part. We see people building integrations that way. We also see people with -- making sandboxes and building their own integrations. So a lot of you said companies are actually starting to hire people. There is services industry there to say, how do I actually build integrations into DocuSign, leveraging the API tools as opposed to pre-built integrators like a Workday or an SAP or one of the other companies. And so we think that's going to be a big part. When I look forward, I think we're going to see businesses, I don't know if you know Blend, that's sort of an originations insert...

Yes. I do. Yes.

Given it's a growth stock, they might be the future for some of your investors, and they're doing great. And they're a big DocuSign partner and integrator, and they've realized that in their origination -- loan origination business, having integration with DocuSign is key. They've actually built a nice little business for us on top of their business by integrating us into their workbooks for their customers. I think that model is going to increasingly grow if people stay. The tools we've built for developers will be there. And the other piece is from a systems integrator's standpoint, when we were eSignature only, which really what we were for a long time, it was hard for an SI, even the regional SIs, to build a DocuSign practice, because they would say to us, the software is pretty good, it's pretty easy to use, people sign up on their own and you have a web business that people don't even ever call anyone, they just sign up. So they couldn't make enough money. But now with the broader Agreement Cloud, some of those companies are coming back and saying, oh, if we put in a CLM tool and maybe an advanced analytics tool, we can now support consultants. So they're starting to build DocuSign practices. And I think that will play off, and to your question as well, where people now -- there'll be more individuals out there that are saying, I see how you can build business value with these tools, how do I actually go and sell that to my other customers, even if it's not a traditional eSignature capability. So that's how I see that developing over time.

Yes. Their work was interesting. Procore, another company that's sort of transforming construction, embedded DocuSign in there. Very neat. Let's talk some numbers. We should talk some numbers. You guided to billings growth about 24% second half of 2021, fiscal '21, over the first half. Obviously, growth rate has been recently in the low 30s. You obviously crushed that billings number last quarter. So we'll take that one away a little bit. But how should we think about sustainability of growth? Whatever you're comfortable sharing, but we'd love to understand a little bit. As you think about this business, you think about, again, the awareness, we just talked about more cottage industry, more embedability, more API calls, how should we think about sort of that sustainability of growth and the conservativeness you built in, offset by what should happen even now coming out of COVID?

I mean I think the COVID part is an interesting piece. It's a little bit of a wildcard. When Mike Sheridan, our CFO, was putting together our guidance, one of the things that we talked about a lot in the first quarter when we came out of this, was, hey, we're providing guidance to what we can guide, what we can see, and we're not going to do guesswork. So we have the same discussion when we came out this quarter, where are we with COVID and how it's going to play out. And we could see our pipeline building that gave us comfort that we would raise our guidance as we did across the board for the year and the quarter in terms of revenue as well as billings. But to your point, we didn't raise it at the same rate that we saw that overperformance with the 59% billings growth. That's never happened before. We did in the 40s before, we've never been almost 60%. It's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. But we don't...

A high class problem.

Yes. Exactly. No investors should be uncomfortable with that. But we don't see visibility to that level again, but we do see visibility that's strong. When you get into the second half, it gets tougher to try to now provide more thoughtful guidance on some of these more dynamic growth levers like billings, because it's just harder to understand how the pipe will play out. But each quarter, we'll continue to update that and provide the additional guidance. But we look at this as a strong growth company, right? And so we've had conversations in the past, how we balance growth versus profitability. And the answer for us is growth. We're going to try to get to that apex of growth. We've never been drunken sailors that are spending crazy. We're only going to look at reasonable investments that have positive ROI return. We want to be good stewards, right, of the capital and the assets we have. But we want to focus on going after the growth opportunity. And because we're so early in these games that is described in the front when we're talking about TAM, I think you're going to see us aggressively pushing for growth. And my aspiration is that as each quarter goes by and we get more and more visibility, you'll see Mike coming back to you and say, we do see that growth there, and we're going to invest in it. And as an indication of that, in Q1, we talked about the fact that we actually said let's pull forward some hiring in our go-to-market, so sales are fundamentally hiring as well as some of our marketing spend because we were just seeing more demand right now. We don't understand, is that a 1 or 2 quarter phenomenon? Or is it going to be at that sustained level? That's not yet clear to us. But it looked good. And whatever we can tell you, the future looks pretty good. And the other factor that I'd just add to that when we try to put together our perspective on this is, one of the concerns some organizations like Zoom is a great example, because they had this explosive piece, and as Eric talks about that, he always has some caution and says, some of these are activities that we think might go back off-line once people get back into their offices. We've tried to look hard for that. While there are some COVID-19 very specific use cases that we could imagine that might happen too, the majority of the things that we've seen has just been an acceleration. People have taken the road map they had, what they wanted to do when they pulled that forward because they're in a work-from-home situation, certain use cases needed to get done very quickly in that format. So from that standpoint, we feel pretty bullish about the growth prospects.

Yes. I don't think we're going to have to worry that a lot of these people want to go back to paper and pen for things that are regular. One last question. I'm going to try and squeeze it in here. But sales and marketing actually did decelerate slightly from previous quarters of your spend. And I don't even care about that so much, but as I think about the business, there is a virality here. You send me something I sign, I realize it's easy, I do it. And then a couple -- are you starting to see that play out sort of -- it's not a forced virality. It's not a network-based model, but there is this viral network that exists. And if that's playing out, do you think that there is going to be a faster decel to sales and marketing, even though you just said you're going to spend more, which you should. I mean I'll put the foot on the gas, that's what we all do, we're growth guys. How do you think about that playing a role with the sales and marketing investment?

Yes. A couple of things. So sales and marketing actually went up, but as a percentage of revenue went down, to be clear. And it only went down a small amount. We're getting some scale benefit, which is that we're getting pretty big. So that's great. I'd like to continue over the next few years when you look at our target model. Most of that comes from an efficiency in sales and marketing, which it should. But to the second half of your question around the virality. So I think it's important, but it's different than some other types of virality. What you have to understand is in our business, we've got the 661,000 companies that are buying us and they're senders. They're sending out agreements to people, the whole agreement cycle. But in signature, they're sending out agreements to get signed. And then there's hundreds of millions of people who are users who have signed them. And so the interesting part of our virality, some people are signers, but they don't pay us, unless you're a sender, and we don't charge people to sign agreements. So not all signers have a business or a reason to send. And so we've been working, though, very hard trying to unlock the opportunity to take those folks that are signers and make them a more DocuSign company or individual, even if they can't today say, I want to sign up and start sending agreements because they don't send agreements out to people. And so we're spending a lot of time trying to figure how to create these relationships with them and turn them into customers, even though right now, they're users. And so -- but the virality, I just want to make sure that's different, because most people come new to the name, you went through the same process yourself but for your investors, they thought, wow, all those people are just going to -- and they'll become customers, and a lot of people say, I don't. So I bought a house, someone sent me a mortgage agreement, I signed it. Or a real estate, I signed it. I'm now not going to become a realtor myself and start sending real estate agreements. But for some portion of those people, what we think is happening, they'll go back to their company, and they'll say, we should use this DocuSign technology, it's a lot better than the systems we have. So we do think we get that brand benefit, but we tend not to call it like a K factor in the way like a VC would think about a virality score because it's a little bit different. But that's what I thought of it and I do think over time, you're right, it will be another driver of efficiency for us, as you get that breadth of users, they will become an army that's sort of pushing on more DocuSign.

Yes. No, that's perfect. That's exactly what I meant and I hope people understand that. It's not a force. You're not going to make everyone a customer. But funnily enough, I'll give you a simple example, mortgages and even leases, if I own some rental, like a place to store all the documents, I don't have to download them, store them, they're always on the DocuSign. I should have a DocuSign, I should know where to store it. Interesting. We are out of time though. We continue this conversation a lot. Dan, I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Annie, thank you and your team. I appreciate the support. And thanks again for being here.

Thanks for having us, Bhavan. Of course, see you soon.

Bye, guys. Thank you.