Dubber Corporation Limited (DUB.AX) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. The number of participants seems to have stabilized. So good morning. Welcome to the quarter 4 financial year '25 quarterly update. I'm Matthew Bellizia, the CEO of Dubber. Along with me today is Andrew Demery, who is our CFO. You can just move through Andrew, a couple of slides, and we'll talk about what we're going to go through today, the key messages. Andrew will then cover the financial overview. I'll give talk about a CEO presentation, our focus areas going forward. And then we'll have Q&A to conclude. Rodeo. So starting with some positives. We set out for the financial year to achieve operating -- underlying operating run rate cash flow breakeven in June '25. I think we've already told the market we hit that in April and June. So we've achieved the target we set out. So we're getting -- we're pulling this place back under -- into a much more commercially run organization. We've also reported a net operating cash flow for quarter 4, excluding the exceptional cash flows, things like SRO payments that we didn't pay years ago and other legal fees, which are out sort of normal operations. We got to cash flow breakeven for the quarter, which is the first time in the company's history. So we're making substantial progress in terms of running this company in a commercial manner. The group is well capitalized. We have $15.9 million of working capital as at June 30. That's a cash balance of $10.9 million and the $5 million facility we haven't touched. So we're in a lot -- we're in a fairly strong position going forward. The negative of the quarter, which everyone is aware, is we lost the VMO2 mobile recording contract. They didn't renew with us. It had a net impact of $7 million. You saw within 2 weeks, we immediately acted and pulled $4 million of costs out of the business. I'm still working on taking the last $2 million out. I'm negotiating pretty aggressively with London right now to get rid of London, which is a substantial part of that last $2 million. So we've done a lot to make sure that if we dip back into the red for a minute -- for a few months, we're going to minimize that -- to make the curve of that gap as low as we possibly can. So the loss of that revenue is obviously impacting us, but we're going to try and get this place back into an operating cash flow breakeven as soon as we practically can. So we're extremely focused on that. You may ask the question, why did we lose VMO2? What's come to light in the last few days is AIPHORIA, the company that's taken this contract, you can see their information on Company's House. It's AIPHORIA in the U.K. There's 2 AIPHORIAs by the way, so don't get confused. One has just raised $34 million. It's not them. It's a small company. They did a capital raise in July 2024 at a valuation of $8 million with GBP 124,000 in the bank. So it suggests to us that the only way they got that valuation is they signed VMO2 up in July last year. So we are still trying to work hard to see what we can do to retain any of VMO2. But at this point, we're going to assume that we've lost that contract. But as an executive, we haven't given up fighting to see what we can retain. Our quarter 4 FY '25 financial highlights, we did have a reduction in revenues by 1%, came off $300,000. Primarily, we've had some exchange rate hits. We had some archive customers, people that have had us storing stuff for 7 years with them that we've taken margin hits on as we renewed them. And we're still suffering a little bit of losses flowing out of people that made the decision 12 months ago to leave us. So we might get 50 licenses in and we're losing 20 out. I'm hoping that's going to stabilize. We've been sending a fairly strong message about stability through this market since I started. October, I've been working the market very regularly about we're strong, we're stable. We're going in a really positive direction. We're investing in R&D. We're taking you on a great journey, hang in there. It's just the ramifications of stuff that happened 12 months ago, and we think that will stem. So hopefully, we can get back into a stronger growth position as we go forward. Our total cash-based costs again reduced by 5% quarter 4 versus quarter 3, as more efficiencies are delivered. The total cost base -- cost run rate of $43.3 million now. I think the business is better targeted for growth and being more efficient in the current structure than the structure I started with, albeit the costs are considerably lower. I think the point that we have less internal meetings. We've got more people on point about what we're building, what we need to deliver to market, how we're going to market in sales. And we've still got a few areas to improve, such as our customer retention strategies and a few other things that I think the business can do better. Our CSP partners increased from 240 -- up to 240 up to 35 (sic) [ 235 ]. So we're still getting pretty good strength through our CSPs. In terms of the question, do you think we're going to lose any other partners like VMO2? I think they made a decision probably too fast back in July last year, and that's what the evidence is probably pointing to. I've circulated and visited most of our key partners time and time again. I'm in regular contact with them. I sense that we are not -- I do not sense that we have anyone else that I'm sensing is going to leave the company. So just putting that out there before that question comes later on. We also made progress on the recovery of funds and the investigations under a Board subcommittee, and we'll address that in a separate slide as we go forward. So Andrew, I might now hand to you to handle the financial overview.

Yes. Thanks, Matt. You've hit my highlights of that slide. So thank you for that. So yes, as Matt said, yes, revenue was $10.7 million for the quarter. That was down from $11 million last quarter. Primarily, that's some one-offs. They're lumpy and that sort of come through throughout the year. So on a recurring basis, we were down 1%, $10.7 million, $10.6 million. And as Matt said, a little bit of currency in that impact. Underlying growth was probably a bit lower than we wanted to for some of the reasons sort of Matt alluded to. And I think we're confident over the short to medium term, that's going to pick up again as we get that sort of sales plan and really engaged in the marketing activities that Matt is going to talk to start to come through. So -- and yes, we've got -- we've had some long legacy contracts, archive storage was particular, a couple of those sort of came down this quarter, where we run off a 7-year contract and renewed at a lower rate, really reflecting the market for those sort of legacy services now compared to when those original contracts were signed 5, 7 years ago in some cases. So there's not many of those, so I don't expect that to be a continued headwind going forward. So 42 -- just over $42 million and up 9% for the year as a whole in terms of revenue is what we think we'll report. And as Matt said, yes, we're still getting new partners on board, whether they be networks, resellers of networks coming on board. And the good thing is that the new ones really want to be with Dubber and they're hungry. They're embedding the services in their go-to-market offerings. So that yes, these new partners are really about quality of the partner and what they're going to do for us going forward rather than just quantity and adding numbers to the list. There's no value in doing that just for the sake of that. On costs, again, pleasing to see the trend on gross margin. We're up 73% for the quarter. A lot of work has gone into the underlying platform, continued efficiencies that are coming through and our development team doing a great job in continuing to eke those out. There's still some more in the underlying platform to come over the coming year. And obviously, with the VMO2 contract coming off, there will be some cost savings attached to that. That's obviously dependent on the speed of the exit of that contract over the course of this year and our ability to specifically flex down parts of the platforms in response to that. From an operating cost perspective, again, quarter-on-quarter down another 4%. So again, a pleasing trend when we look at the chart, we had $31.8 million of annualized operating. So we're at $43.3 million of total annualized cost run rate based on the quarter. So that's obviously down substantially over the last 18 months or so. We've got -- as Matt talked to, we've got another sort of -- we had a $4 million plan in the numbers that you're seeing there. There's about $1 million of that $4 million sort of being delivered in the quarterly number. So there's another $3 million to come going forward. In terms of our run rate and as Matt talked to, there's another $2 million we're working on, primarily we can exit our surplus London lease. There's about $1.3 million of annualized cash costs that are in the Q4 number that will come out. So that's working really hard on achieving that. So -- sorry. There we go. So yes, the doors are closed. As Matt said, in June – I think in June, we got to cash flow -- underlying cash flow breakeven, which is why those 2 dots have now crossed. So that's a great reflection of all the effort that's gone in by all the people in the business and the faith in our customers over the last 12 months. As Matt touched on, VMO2 obviously impacts what that chart looks like going forward. We're going to lose some gross margin once that contract finally terminates, we're obviously in a transition period right now, where we're still providing some services as we go forward. So yes, those additional -- that gross margin reduction will get offset over the course of FY '26 by those further cost reductions coming through. And then obviously, we're still confident of revenue growth coming through to close that gap. And just to reiterate, we said this in our announcement in May, the Board has got no current intention to raise capital for working capital purposes in response to that previous announcement of VMO2. Just touch on the cash flow for the quarter. So receipts were $11.9 million, up from $10.6 million. Again, that's partly some timing just in terms of when some of our large customers paid their bills. Quarter-on-quarter operating cash flows were down 37%. That really reflects that we had $6.8 million plus a bit more of exceptional costs in the fourth quarter related to the ATOs, which you take them out, underlying operating cash flows, we'll talk to on the next slide, were also down a little. So yes, on a statutory basis, $0.5 million net cash outflows in the quarter. We got $0.5 million back from the bonds on our Sydney and Brisbane properties that we exited in the quarter. So that was a cash inflow back. So net-net, we've ended up, as Matt said, we've got $10.9 million of cash. At the end of the period, we've got $5 million of loan facility that runs for a while. So we've got $15.9 million of available funding. So we're well capitalized going forward. And just touching on -- I think Matt talked about this as one of the highlights. But if we look at our -- if we take out the exceptional cash outflows during the period of $0.5 million, which really related to some payments related to legal investigations and some -- the last -- we're getting towards the end of the runoff of the SRO payments. So we got one payment plan that just extends into Q1 now. We take that out, on a reported basis, our cash flow was breakeven or net operating cash flow was breakeven for the quarter, which as Matt said, it's the first time that was achieved. So that's good news. That's all I have got to say Matt. Over to you.

Okay. Back to the CEO update. Moving -- I mean, as we called out that we will go backwards in terms of cash flow because of the VMO2 loss once we lose some revenue, we do intend -- so we're going to be working on getting us back to cash flow breakeven during FY '26. The priority, of course, is to drive revenue growth and drive -- our revenue growth is not bad at times. I've got to work on tightening up the retention as well. So there'll be a focus on driving revenue and retention, maybe a few different ways we'll go to market, which I think will help drive growth in the business. We also have a bit further cost out, which we're continually working on. Again, I was negotiating London property, which we've talked about only a few hours ago. We may get a bit more real about that pretty soon. So we're hoping that, that does close out. In terms of driving recurring revenue growth, we have a new comprehensive sales and marketing plan. We've just had feedback from all of our sales team around the world of what we can do on a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly basis to drive it. We have new sets of partner plans with a real focus, and the team is pretty enthusiastic about being able to contribute, come up with their ideas, and we've consolidated all their ideas, so they're all learning from each other. We've launched a new customer-focused website. We're trying to get the messaging in this place much clearer about what Dubber does and the value proposition it brings to end customers. We want the finance sector, we want end customer targets, no matter what sector it is to really clearly understand this is the benefit Dubber brings to you. We're not just voice recording. We have AI and AI can either improve your sales, reduce your costs or improve your compliance and there's real outcome-based selling into our internal culture, which is similarly back to the industry-based marketing outcomes. And again, trying to stimulate partner sales with confidence. We're a strong company. We're strong in this space. We've got good product. What happened in the past has gone. It's onwards, upwards, positive. Let's go forward. And as I continue to touch on, I want to drive better retention in the place, and I've got some initiatives on that. We are continually adding future partners and retaining our existing partners. We've also got a bit of a program working through some of our older partners, which we might be able to restimulate to bring business even if it's $500 or $1,000 MRR a month, it all accumulates in all counts. So really driving a results-based culture with a lean organization that's really on point about what we need to do to achieve outcomes. Next slide, thanks, Andrew. In terms of our R&D, we continue to substantially invest in R&D. And as time we get this message out deeper and deeper into the market, we are spending as much or more than most people in the R&D space. So our product is probably not -- I'm just going to move that around to get the sun out of the backdrop, we are spending more than most of our competitors. And I think now we've got the best product in the market, we've got to continue to sell the message that we're getting stronger and stronger in what we're selling, what we're building. So an Enhanced Insight Reports, this have been delivered, a new Moments API to allow customers to download our Moments via the API. More notifications. That means notifications being sent to your phone to tell you what you need to know about your business rather than having to log into a portal to find the answers, we're pushing them at people's phones. Advanced Sentiment Analysis, Upgraded Conversation Actions, which is you've had a conversation -- these are the actions that each person in the conversation agreed to. Upgraded Homepage User Interface. So our products are looking slicker continuously. They're looking more professional. We're upgrading the Cloud Recorder. We've currently deployed our first 2 tranches of customers, and we believe we might save around $0.5 million in direct costs by continually deploying this much more modern Cloud Recorder with better grade security. Microsoft Teams Recording Enhancements. We continue to evolve our product there. We've just -- the last quarter, we've got Zoom Contact Center Capture going. So we now get Zoom Contact Centers. And we've done a White Label for our next-generation platform. So therefore, people can put their own brand on our products. Next page, if I can, please, Andrew. Some of the new AI features coming in the next quarter, a Custom Moment. Now at the moment, our Moments focus on sales or customer satisfaction or HR or abuse, we're going to be able to customize a moment to whatever you wanted to do for your business. And if you don't like that and you want to do a natural language search, you'll be able to type in a natural language search and analyze all our voice traffic for anything -- any topic you want to randomly choose. Enhanced Notification. So again, pushing more data to people's phones to make it easy for them to see the benefit of our product. Improved Sentiment Analysis, telling people moods, grading their conversation. Does someone go from sad at the start of the conversation to happy? Do they go from happy to sad? It gives you some really good metrics about how people in your business are understanding how your team is driving the mood of your end customers. And we're also building continuously new payment processing features, a part of the business, which I still think has got more potential and that we can still uplift. We're doing more marketing investments doing enhanced partner sales. We currently, we've engaged a professional company to do a short adverts so that when we sit on Microsoft Marketplaces and there are 6 or 8 or 10 video recording companies, you click on ours and it's going to give you a really sleek professional 15-second advert, why to choose us. At the end of the day, if you can't tell the difference between the 15 products, they all do voice recording, they all have AI. They're all about the same price. And we have a really slick advert, more people should choose us. We're doing a brand video to get the underlying principles, 45 seconds, what is the qualities of our brand. We're global, we're strong. We have great security. We have some of the best partners in the world. Just a nice slick video underlying the confidence in the Dubber brand. We're doing an AI promotional video. We have partners that potentially are incapable of selling a solution. They're normally selling product. If you're a telco salesman, they might have 10, 20, 30 products in their kit bag. They're not going to understand the benefits and the solution of our AI. So now they can simply play a 2.5-minute video that tells you all the benefits of our AI. And hopefully, if it's only 5 or 10 licenses enough where it's not a substantial investment for the end customer. It's enough where the end customer will say, I'm happy just to buy it straight off you. There's enough -- that promotional video did enough that for a couple of hundred dollars a month that's worth an investment. If it's a massive opportunity, it should be enough to stimulate to say, get a Dubber professional salesperson on and give me a professional full end-to-end demonstration. And we also have a full partner presentation that goes to about 15, 20 minutes if someone wants to get a full demonstration. So we're helping the partners do the presentation that they're not capable of doing it or haven't learned the product inside and out. Our new website has been launched, and we're updating all our payments business marketing activity. Moving on to the next slide. Our investigation and recovery of funds. Everyone has been advised that there's a subcommittee that runs this, which I'm not a part of. So I'm not in all the detail of all this, but I do get briefs at a Board meeting once a month. We continue our focus on the recovery of funds on a commercial basis. In terms of what ASIC is doing, people ask me every quarter, what is ASIC doing? I don't really know. ASIC do whatever they do. They call in whoever they want. To our knowledge, McGovern and Madafferi have -- and don't believe anyone has been charged to this point, but we're not privy to what ASIC is doing. It's their own time lines. We've cooperated as a business as we've been required. The subcommittee issued proceedings in the federal court against the former auditors BDO Audit in Perth. And they also issued proceedings against Stephen McGovern and Mark Madafferi during the last quarter. They did that because they believe there's a commercial basis of getting some funds back. How long that case is going to take? We don't know. How much we're likely to get back? We don't know. But the initial proceedings has been started. What's going to drive that is how the other parties react as to what the time lines and what their defense is. I think we all know the risk of litigations, nothing is ever laid down. But obviously, our advice is we have a case that's worth pursuing. We continue to engage with the Victorian Legal Services Board Fidelity Fund on its potential claim. That's continuing as well. And work supporting these claims and other recovery avenues is also underway. The results are uncertain at the moment, both the quantum and timing, but we believe there was enough -- our subcommittee believes there was enough case to pursue these matters. Moving on to the final slide. Our focus areas for FY '26, and you'll note this slide hasn't really changed from the last quarter. Things don't change overnight in a business like ours, but regular cost-effective marketing, keep driving the vertical strategy, keep improving the partners' ability to sell. I talked about some of the marketing things that we're driving at the moment to bring out, continually looking for new revenue streams, complementary products that we can add. I've talked about before, we've had 3 revenue streams, call recording, AI and the payments. I would love to bring a fourth and fifth revenue stream to broaden up our growth at some point. We continue on our product evolution, which I've talked about, continue to drive a results-based culture, people focused on what they've got to achieve, what outcomes we're going to get and continue to find cost improvements and productivity gains, and we've talked about the London lease. We want to deliver on our growth plans, and again, we're aiming to bring the business back to a cash flow run rate position during FY '26. So that's the presentation this month -- this quarter, I should say. We'll open now for some Q&A.

We've got a couple of questions coming through. Matt, hope you can see that.

Why do you think you lost the Virgin contract was the first one? I think the decision was made and the evidence probably suggests it was made, July last year. And that's -- and my basis of that assumption, I don't know for sure, was based on the capital raise getting done by AIPHORIA. And the only basis of getting that valuation was a contract in their mix. So I assume back in July, June, July last year when they made the decision, they were probably basing it on the fact that we were -- we have been -- just come out of a trading hold, just raised some more money and there was uncertainty about where we're going. Having said that, in my opinion, they've gone from the frying pan to the fire. Okay. Congrats on getting to underlying cash flow breakeven. It must be disappointed to have lost the VMO2 contract and be back in the red. How is team morale post this contract loss? And has it triggered any changes to how you handle customer relations? So the answers to all those questions, I think morale is pretty good in the place. I think people are -- we're really empowering people to make decisions in here and drive a really positive culture. I'm comfortable with where we're at. The team has doubled down. We are going -- what it -- how it changed our customer relations is going to -- we certainly went to high alert more so than we already were. From the moment I started in October, I did a trip immediately overseas working on customer retention, trying to put confidence through the market. That's continued. All of our customers went into a high alert, particularly in the U.K. market in May. I was over there when we lost the contract, which was fairly lucky. We went and visited most of the partners. We're continually talking to the partners. We're particularly taking calls. We don't -- so we've gone in and we've gone from continually selling stability to now changing our strategy to really start saying, hey, not only stability is gone. We're there. It's now about growth, and we are the best partner you could possibly want. So why would you leave the partner with the best product with the best road map for the future. So that's probably what's changed. What visibilities do you have on future revenue opportunities? That's mixed, to be honest. I look at what comes out of Salesforce. I mean, is it reliable? We put opportunities in there. But because we're using indirect channels, how reliable is that opportunity? If someone says, well, I've got an opportunity because -- and I'm working for a telco and it's 500 seats and they put it in Salesforce. But we're not qualifying the underlying end customer enough to say that, that's credibility. So I think right now, our visibility of future revenues is limited. I think we can probably do that better. But being in indirect channels, the indirect channel has the real relationship with the end customer. And I think we are often dependent on feedback from them and their feelings rather than understanding ourselves. Are there any further questions? Right. Can you provide some details on how you plan to achieve the additional $4 million savings? That's been done. And a series of people have been made redundant. Why it hasn't been all realized to today is that some people are rolling off at different periods either due to employment contracts or the times the company has agreed with them as to when they should finish some works and leave. So there's -- the work has been done. The $4 million has been -- the notices have been given. It's a roll-off program due to contract lengths and other stuff. Most of that $4 million of savings was labor savings. What sort of growth are we gaining in North America? North America is our best market for growth. It's continually growing. And they're pretty upbeat in that market right now. They're pretty positive about where we're going. They're pretty enthusiastic about doing their plans and being creative. That's our best market for growth. I think Australia has got some work to do. I look at the Australian market. I think Australia is around 6% of revenue. It's our home market. Compliance recording is in a company in Optus. Compliance is an obligation on financial services. I think we can get that going better and get growth. But I think North America has got some reasonable traction and is our best market. U.K. is still a little stagnant, probably more conservative because of the VMO2 loss. Hopefully, we're rebuilding that confidence and that growth will start coming back through, too. The current focus on cost and culture transformation is intended for long-term question mark. I think any time you run a business, I'm always looking to how do we do things slicker, easier. Even right now, I'm looking through the way we do sales commissions. We have 2 staff entering data from our activation system into our Salesforce 2 days a week to help drive sales commissions. I'm going to simplify that process and save 2 days of labor for both those staff. Will we save the wage? Maybe not, maybe I'll repurpose them into something more constructive to drive revenue. But I think as a CEO, you're always looking for new ways of how we drive revenue, how we drive growth, what is unnecessarily superfluous functions in the business, how do we get the business more streamlined in terms of operations, costs and either reapply that labor to purposeful revenue-generating tasks. or save the costs. Can you please comment on what you are doing to improve diversification of clients? Yes. VMO2 highlighted the concentrated revenue of the firm. Yes, it's a good point. We were -- it was our -- from the moment I started, it said -- I think it was 22% of revenue was always a massive exposure. Yes, we are trying to -- I talked in the earlier presentation about bringing on and activating more partners, broadening the spread of revenue. Certainly, our exposure to top-end revenue is considerably less. Our biggest exposure, our biggest partner now becomes Vodafone U.K., who is more than happy to double down with us. We're all in with Vodafone, and that relationship is quite good. The rest of our spread is getting quite good and our exposures are dropping. And I totally agree with that comment in terms of broadening our partner base in terms of reactivating some partners, broadening our marketing to other sectors and building out a better spread and reducing our exposure going forward. You have so many partners, but little revenue. Why do you think this is so? You are right. There is a number of partners that are doing next to nothing. I need to untap them. Why are they -- why have they picked up some customers and not continue with the business? We're finding out some of those reasons. Some of them, quite frankly, didn't like the former CEO, to be honest, and the way we run this business. So that's where I'm seeing an opportunity to go back to some of those people. I've got a good meeting here in a week's time in Australia, which I'm attending from a pretty reasonable partner that could -- been dormant. But there's a bag of reasons, and we need to start to re-understand why don't these people and where -- which ones are a waste of time and which ones can we activate into proper revenue. Next question. VMO2 was a significant client. How many other clients do you think do you have that make up over 5% of revenue? The answer to that's 2. Promoting 230 CSP clients sounds like a diverse client base, but my concern is the revenue is not diverse by clients. The revenue is too concentrated to the top 20, 25 partners. I think -- and we will certainly be working on broadening our spread through that. But there is a good chunk of revenue through the top 20, 25, which I'm starting to really have a good look at. And I've already talked about my plans on I'm getting some breadth. But I'm certainly conscious of that exposure and what we can -- and making sure we do tackle it. Obviously, we can't change it overnight, but certainly, it's not going unnoticed or unaddressed. That's the questions for the moment. I'll have a drink of water while the next one comes up. I noticed you said you don't need to raise fund for working capital reasons, but would you consider raising to bring on additional revenue stream? Or is there more work to be done on the existing business before you consider this? So I think that question is actually pretty sensible. I think there's more work to be done right now in terms of getting this business in the shape that I think it can run more optimally. I mean there's some people that I've talked to recently that have got some interesting complementary products, which you could potentially partner in potentially OEM and bring in as a fourth revenue stream with that investment. Certainly, there may be potential that you buy a product or do an M&A in the future. But to your point there, I think there's still some work to be done here before we do that. But certainly, there's some partner opportunities that an OEM and additional product, which might complement what we're doing is certainly something worth exploring. But M&A and raising capital for that, I think a little bit down the road once we stabilize what we're doing, get this place running a little bit better yet, and then we can start to broaden our lens in terms of broader growth. I hope that addressed your question. Are you confident that your products are world-class? Are you aware of other AI companies coming into your territory? Conversational AI is becoming a pretty trendy topic around the world, and many companies probably have much better valuations than us on this basis on the fact that, obviously, we're tarnished heavily by our history. I think the way we do AI is pretty smart and the advantage we bought that company is one of the smart things that our former Board did is they bought an AI company and they built -- and along with our product team built those moments, which are pretty smart products and focus. So that gives us a fairly good point of difference in the market. There's a lot of natural language products in the market that just do a search. People ask me the question, just to broaden your question for you, why don't people just record with Microsoft? Well, if you're doing compliance recording, people want to use some Microsoft. They want to use some mobile phones. They want to use some Teams and Zoom. We're the company that can consolidate that and bring it all into one location to one platform and then provide AI across all of it. So yes, there will be different competing products in different competing sectors, but we have a place in the market where we do consolidate across a broad range of channels and allow people to get their AI insights across the whole lot. So I hope that answers your question. Are there any -- here we go. You mentioned a couple of times tarnished by history. Does Dubber name need to be changed, like a new coat of paint? This is -- this was a conversation that came up in my first few weeks by some of the investors, do we change the name? And there's 2 ways to change the name. One is on the ASX because we've obviously sent some investors up to $4 and all the way back down. And the other way is in the marketplace. Probably my initial experience in the marketplace is certainly across the U.S. market and other places, the Dubber name is actually quite good. People actually like the brand, and they're less worried about what happened. And in order to get a brand name back out there would cost a bit of money. And I'm not sure that helps. Then there's a small departure from brand like a DubbberAI, just putting AI on the end, which potentially does a couple of things. It potentially says to the market that we're not the old Dubbber, this is the new Dubbber, and we're not just voice recording, we have AI. There is some considerations with all those things or do you do a full departure from the name or do you stay with the name. So again, they are things that we are considering. There are things that we're discussing, but there's absolutely nothing concrete or nothing. No decision on any of that stuff for the moment. But like probably other people, we have contemplated that as you'd expect. Can you give more clarity to the bad debt and the sense of sponsorship of F1? Well, I don't know if there's much point of talking about F1. I think we all -- anyone would have to agree what a total waste of money. I don't know what business they ever generated out of that. As to the bad debt, I'm not sure I'm aware of what the bad debt is. Andrew, can you assist there?

Yes. It's the -- I think they're probably referring to the $8 million that was written off in the FY '22 financial year from a large customer. And obviously, I think the efforts behind the scenes are ongoing in terms of trying to get to a position on the recovery of that. But when we've got any certainty about any ability to recover that, obviously, we'll update the market at the time. But yes, given the events of the rest of the year, it's not been a high priority item.

Are there any further questions? We're now at 9:40. Are we targeting different industries in our region ourselves such as [ cancels ] or just relying on our partners? That is one of the initiatives that I will start. I want to get a lot more targeted. Certainly, we have not gone out and targeted end market sectors. We've been dependent on our partners to date. It's certainly a dice that I'm going to roll in Australia, we're going to go into and start trying to stimulate end market demand. I've spoken to a number of people that have been sales and marketing in indirect channels. They do it as well. I think it is the right strategy. We'll certainly roll the dice a bit in Australia. I'll have a crack with our home market. We'll have a crack at going direct at financial services. I'll choose a few other sectors. We'll target and we'll go in there. We may go in with our partner in a more aggressive manner, but we might drive the initiative to find the right people and open the doors. If that works, we'll clone it around the world. But I think it's part of the strategy that can certainly be improved. All right. Are there any further questions? We might just give it one more minute. And if not, we'll conclude this month's webinar. There doesn't seem to be any questions coming through. So on that basis, thanks, everyone, for attending. I hope we gave you some good information. Obviously, it's disappointing that we're slowing back into the red momentarily. When I say momentarily, I can't put an exact time line on how long that's going to be. But you can certainly be rest assured that we're -- we'll be working hard to pull it back into cash flow breakeven as soon as practically possible. So we'll be -- certainly haven't lost our focus and our drive to achieve that outcome and start running on our own steam again. So -- there's 2 final questions, and then I'll wrap up. Is there any scope in your old industry and others possibly. Is there any thought on the share price? That's really not for me to comment on what the share price is, I guess, that's financial advice. So thank you, everyone, for your time. And as I say, we will be dipping back into cash flow red, but we can rest assured we'll be addressing that as diligently as we can be. So thanks, everyone, for their time.