Gamma Communications plc (GAMA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Well, hello and good morning. Apparently, we are now online, so welcome, everybody, in the room, and welcome to you if you're joining us over the web link as well. Thank you very much indeed for making the time to come and join us for Gamma's FY 24 results. We're pretty happy with the results for reasons that we'll go into. We think we've had a very, very good, strong year, and we hope you do too. The agenda is pretty similar to what we normally do, so I'll start with a general business update. Bill will come and talk about the financial highlights for the year. Then we'll spend a bit of time talking about the market trends in the business units. And really, what I'm looking to pull out from the business units is three things this year. So firstly, when we're talking about Gamma business, which is our channel business where we're selling through partners, we'll talk a bit more about what we do with the service providers that we work with. When we talk about enterprise, I just want to bring out some of the great logo wins we've had in the year and particularly those where we've been able to service some of our customers using capabilities that we've acquired over the last few years. And when we get to talking about Europe, inevitably, we'll talk about Germany because that's what everybody is asking us about. So we'll do that. We'll then have a business outlook. The other thing I should say is, normally, we try and be very helpful in our business outlook, and we try and give you a bit of guidance in terms of where we're coming up to against consensus. We can't do that this year because as you all think -- everyone is well aware, we're currently going for a float on the Main Market. That means we have to issue a prospectus. And therefore, if we say too much against where we're going to be against consensus, that means we've done a profit forecast, and then we have to pay some accountants, really quite a lot of money to talk about that, which is a little bit hard and difficult. So once we've got the float out of the way, Bill will be giving you a bit more guidance against consensus. But in the meantime, if you need any help with models and things, you know where to go and do go and have a chat to Bill. Who's that handsome fellow? That's me. I probably should have introduced myself at the beginning and didn't. So for those of you who've got this far in going, "Who is that talking?" I'm Andrew, and I'm Gamma's CEO. It was suggested to me that I might sort of want to begin by just running around very quickly what Gamma actually does, just kind of going back to the very basics. Gamma, I think most of you probably are aware, Gamma is a B2B communications business. We started about 20, 25 years ago in the U.K., selling just calls and lines in those days, just pick up your phone, make a phone call, largely, to small businesses. About 10 years ago, we started selling to enterprises. And over the last 5 years, we've been selling in Europe as well. What we do is three things very crudely. So we sell communications platforms. So if you think about -- the one everybody knows is Teams, but we sell Cisco platforms at the top-end of the market on the right-hand side there. In the mid-market, we have a product called Horizon that we've been selling in the U.K. for about 15 years now. We've got over -- well over 800,000 users on that. We also sell a product called iPECS, which used to be known as Ericsson-LG, which is, therefore, a joint venture between Ericsson and LG. And then we have our own proprietary platform, PhoneLine+, at the bottom end of the market. And we don't just sell those platforms and distribute them; we're also a carrier. We also have our own network, which means we can provide what we call voice enablement or using phone numbers to enhance those platforms. So again, if you've got a legacy product of hardware PBX, we can provide SIP trunking. If you're using Teams, we can provide Operator Connect, which basically enables you to take calls in and out of Teams just using numbers. And then we'll talk a bit more about our Service Provider business and what we do there a little bit later. And then at the bottom, connectivity, so Ethernet, broadband, mobile. And just as a reminder, where we're selling Ethernet, we're reselling the people. We're not digging up large swathes of the U.K. and laying our own fiber. We don't do that. We work with partners like BT, PXC, the old TalkTalk Business. And mobile, we work with people like Three and EE in the U.K. So that's what we do. Do we make some money doing it? Well, yes, we do. And we're very, very proud of those numbers, really good growth throughout FY '24. And thank you very much indeed to all of our customers, all of our partners and all of our employees for their hard work during 2024. Bill is going to go through the numbers in a lot more detail. I won't steal his thunder. He will accuse me of having done that anyway, but I'm not going to. Bill sort of unpick what's organic, what's not organic. What I would say is where we have acquired businesses, they've been accretive from the get-go, which has been particularly pleasing. The other thing I'm particularly pleased in there, without diving into the numbers, is just the number of customers we have taking Gamma product now. So we've got well over 1 million end users. That's 1 million seats in the U.K. on one of our cloud platforms. And on Germany, in Germany now on a pro forma basis, so if you sort of add up everything we now own in Germany, had we owned that at the end of 2024, we would have had over 0.5 million cloud seats, which is fantastic. It's probably worth saying at this point because it's in the RNS and Bill will cover it in a bit more detail. Whilst we've had a really, really good start to the year in Germany, our Enterprise business is looking good. And our SME business, we're seeing a little bit of softness in there. And people are already asking us, I'm sure it will come up in Q&A. One or two of maybe our peers that sell into SME have reported that they're still quite confident. We're confident. We're not worried. But what we are seeing is at the bottom end of SME, and remember, Gamma's average customer size on something like Horizon is about 16, 17 seats. So in that very, very small end of SME, where you've got sort of 10, 15 employees, we are kind of anecdotally picking up that people are a little bit worried about the economy. They're a little bit worried about NI rises. They're a little bit worried about what might be coming through in employment legislation, and that has been just a little bit softer. So at the bottom end of SME, we are seeing that softness. In terms of the highlights of the business, and we'll cover all of these a lot more later. So as I say, our Service Provider business within Gamma business. So Gamma business, selling through the channel largely to SMEs, has had a really good FY '24, but we're just going to pull out the 20% of our business that's selling to service providers. And why are we doing that? Because we're quite excited about it, more and more service providers. And what we mean is those people who sell a communications platform where they're not a carrier. So again, if you think about Microsoft being the obvious one, but also Cisco, people like Twilio as well. They don't have network capability in country, and they require people like Gamma to help them. So that's a growing market because we're seeing more and more of those players. But also, following our Coolwave acquisition 12 months ago, we're beginning to offer those services outside of the U.K. now, and we see that as a growth area. So we're pleased with what we've achieved in FY '24, but we see it as a growth area. Similarly, in Enterprise, Enterprise had a good FY '24. Bill, again, will run you through that. I will talk to you a bit later about some of the wins we've had. We've got a number of really exciting new logos on people like Specsavers, people like Swansea Council, Savills, Morrisons. And we're winning business because we're very good at what we do, first and foremost, but we're also winning business because of some of the capabilities that we've acquired. And then when we get on to talk about Germany -- or sorry, Europe, we're still in the Netherlands. We're still in Spain. We still love those businesses. We're still excited about them, but we've done two big acquisitions in Germany over the course of the last 7 or 8 months. And for the first time I can stand here and say our German business now has scale. We now have sales teams across the whole of Germany, and I'll give you some stats and some figures later on. But fundamentally, we've got good products. We've got products that will work for every customer irrespective of their size, and we've got a sales team across the whole of Germany. So we'll revisit some of those things a bit later on. But right now, I'm going to hand you over to Bill, who can come and talk a little bit about financial highlights for you.

Thank you, Andrew. So I'm Bill Castell. I think I know pretty much everyone in the room. I'm the Chief Financial Officer, been at Gamma just under 3 years. A little joke on the side, I now wear glasses, not just because we've got Specsavers as a new customer, I think it's more age related, but it's a useful thing. I've got around 11 slides. I wanted 15, but Andrew said I've got to be quick. So very happy afterwards in Q&A to cover because there's a lot going on, a lot of good stuff happened in the last 12 months in 2024. So if I turn over. So a common slide, I think many have seen is the 6-box grid that covers some of the key financial highlights. As Andrew has already said, our revenue was up 11% at GBP 579.4 million. That flowed through to an adjusted EBITDA up 10% at GBP 125.5 million, and I'll talk a little bit about that because we actually had quite a few costs flowing through that GBP 125.5 million that we didn't have in prior years. Flowing through, after that, going through to adjusted EPS, that was up 13%, 1-3, 13%, so double digit at 85.1p, helped by interest income. As I go into the cash line, you'll see that this was pre the STARFACE transaction that took place in 2025 in February. So we did finish the year, as you can see at the center there, at GBP 153.7 million of cash. That cash in the center is the same as our net cash because we didn't have any debt, the small German mortgage we paid off in 2024. But I'll come to 2025 because we do now have debt. Cash conversion at the bottom there in the corner at 96%. That was slightly down from the 108% last year. But if you recall last year, I talked about the working capital adjustments, but it's well above the 90%-plus guidance that I gave, with adjusted cash at GBP 120.4 million. All of that feeds through. I am going to talk about the share buyback in 2025 in a moment, but we are still having our progressive dividend policy. If you recall, at half year, we came out with 6.5p. We have the 1/3 -- 2/3. So hopefully, it's no surprise, we're at 19.5p, which is up 14% year-on-year. So as Andrew said, a strong set of results for the year. This slide -- one of my new slides coming through. I think as Andrew mentioned, we're subject to FCA approval. We have a prospectus that is in draft, but we look to go to the Main Market on the 2nd of May. Previously, we've talked about Q2. But on the 2nd of May, if you know the market well, you know that in order to get the tracker stocks, you have to be in before the 6th of May to get the end of June trackers coming in. So the 2nd of May is the date that we're going. But I thought it was a good time to take a look back before we go into the details of 2024 and just look at the last 10 years. And I think the graphs kind of, on their own, show the story, which have 18% CAGR on adjusted EBITDA over the last 10 years, 2014 to 2024, and 19% on adjusted EPS at a fully diluted basis. And interestingly, just -- you can look back at 2014, Gamma's adjusted EBITDA was GBP 23.1 million. That compares to this, 2024, GBP 125.5 million. But if you keep that GBP 23.1 million in your mind, then Andrew will refer back a bit later when he talks about Germany because interestingly, Germany might be following a similar path, we hope, going forward. But certainly, we now have scale in Germany. If I move on to the primary statements. So this is our income statement. I've already talked about the double-digit growth that you can see in the light-purple column on the table. What -- there's 3 points I want to call out here. The first is right at the top, that 89% recurring revenue. It's something that's been consistent in Gamma's story with our subscription-based model. That will continue to be 89% with GBP 516.6 million. Hopefully, those of you who've had a chance to look at the RNS, we have increased disclosure this year. So on Page 25 for my version, they might have moved the page overnight. We give extra disclosure to break down that revenue so you can start to see what's traffic, subscription, and then you can start to see what's the nonrecurring. So hopefully, that helps in some of your modeling going forward. The second one is to talk about the organic growth. Again, we've increased disclosure at the back end, Page 44 of the RNS. As we've done all of these acquisitions, STARFACE in '25, but even in '24, we had Placetel, BrightCloud and Pragma, before that, Satisnet. So we've done quite a lot of acquisitions in the last couple of years. So I felt it was the right time to actually look at our adjusted performance measures and alternative performance measures, and that's what we've done in the back end of the RNS. You'll see that on the side, the final column of the table, and you can see a 6% gross profit and a 6% adjusted EBITDA level. I'll come back to operating expenses later on. The third point to note is actually our statutory profit before tax at 34%, not a bad outcome at all, growing significantly. When we do adjust -- because in the prior year, we did have exceptional items, that still comes out as a very healthy, 14%. So right at the bottom there, you can see the adjusted profit before tax at GBP 111.9 million, which is growth of 14%, helped by the interest income. Clearly, we have the GBP 153.7 million at the end of the period, but we had significant cash throughout the period. I'll start going through like I have previously, the divisions. Gamma business, as Andrew has already said, our largest division. When you look at the growth, actually at the revenue and at the GP level, at 11% headline growth with Pragma and Coolwave, that Andrew has already mentioned, and we'll cover a little bit further, especially when we talk about Service Provider on that side, and we have increased our disclosure on Service Provider going forward. The second one is stable margins. So you can see the 52.8% compared to prior year 53%, so very stable margins throughout the period. And we had organic growth at the GP level, slightly down, as Andrew mentioned, as we went into Q4, but overall for the full year, at 6%. Going forward. One thing I should note is that we had stable ARPUs across the piece with the bolt-ons coming through. The price rises landed more in the traditional products when I talked to you at half year. And you can see the Service Provider, we start talking a little bit more about that, just the scale of it with excess of 12 billion minutes flowing through our network on that side. Moving on to Gamma Enterprise. The numbers get bigger. At the headline level, on revenue, we've got 15% growth year-on-year up to GBP 126.5 million. The gross profit up 14% to GBP 60.2 million. Again, margin stable, 47.6%, compared to the prior year, 47.8%. And pleasingly, the organic growth stepped up, '24, '23. You can see on the GP, for example, organic was up 4% in '23, has now grown to 6% in 2024 on that side. So all in all, a healthy performance. BrightCloud, Andrew will talk later about the Cisco CX provider, providing that kind of turbocharge at the headline level when you look at the double-digit growth of both revenue and gross profit. Now Europe. This is going to be an increasing focus going forward. Germany will be disclosed on its own as a result of the size. And Andrew has got a page, which, I won't steal his thunder, on this, that's coming up, which will explain that. But the headline story was 6% revenue and 18%, but that was significantly helped by the Placetel acquisition. The organic, then, we're actually pretty much flat, slightly down at minus 1% growth year-on-year. But interestingly, similar to when I spoke to you at half year, the gross profit was up 5% year-on-year, so positive 5% on a constant currency basis. So gross profit at GBP 45.4 million. This is all in sterling. And you can see that margin. So the outcome of that is that we've been growing the higher margin, what we call the nontraditional products. So the traditional products, the mobile side haven't grown as much as the kind of products that we're keen to grow, which is more the UCaaS and other products. I think at the moment in Europe, for those who know our business, Germany is by far the largest part of our European business, but we also have Spain and Netherlands. Germany grew, and you can see some of the numbers I put down there on the gross profit side. Germany had 8% underlying organic growth, that's pre-Placetel. So even before the transactions, we saw some good momentum in our German business. Automatically, you'll get in, "If Germany is growing 8%, what are the others growing by?" Spain was growing. And I think as you can see in the RNS, Netherlands, although it's a very small part of our overall business, was more challenging as a more mature market on that side. Investments, this is a slide that I started about 18 months ago to show just to give clarity on our total development spent. What you'll see is it's relatively stable for the year '24 versus '23. So we're at GBP 32.2 million worth of development. That's both what we capitalize in development, but also, what we put through the P&L, which is important. That's pretty much flat to slightly up year-on-year at GBP 0.5 million. I think the important thing to note is we've been capitalizing less. So you can see the 45% in 2023 capitalization rate versus the 39% in 2024. I said this at the half year, if you recall, as we moved the investment, we still invest in PhoneLine+ and some of our own software, but clearly, we have third-party supplier relationships, such as Cisco and those relationships with Ericsson, Teams and others. And so we're now focusing more on the portal, which is allowing us to interact better with our channel partners, and that has gone live now. It's in constant build in respect to improving that portal with the channel partners to sell these multitude of products that we can now sell through the channel. As a result of the first half -- as a result of that first half, there was more kind of expensed development than capitalized. When you move across then to the other side, you can see the CapEx, therefore, was down year-on-year, down GBP 3.8 million. So it went from GBP 23 million in 2023, down to GBP 19.2 million in 2024. And you can see that development cost come across being GBP 1.9 million less. And also, we bought quite a few software licenses in 2023, and there was not such a need in 2024 on those software licenses. Just bear that in mind, in particular, the capitalization rate because I have added a new slide. I'd like to keep things interesting. If you look at the income statement, there's one number that I didn't call out on the headline, which was the 14%, which all other things being equal, might be quite shocking, if OpEx was increasing 14%. What I've shown here is a bar graph and a table just to explain that 14%. So if we work backwards, as a result of the M&A, we get the benefit clearly of all the revenue and gross profit and the double digits you've seen. We also inherit the costs associated with that business. So you can see the inorganic growth of GBP 14.1 million in the year compared to 2023. Since those acquisitions we purchased, there's an extra GBP 14.1 million cost. Good news is there's more revenue and gross profit than that on that side. So when you strip those out on an organic basis, you get to GBP 161.5 million, which is a 6% year-on-year increase. However, when I do the analysis and hopefully, when you do the analysis, you also can see there was a number of things in 2024 that I alluded to earlier that didn't occur in 2023. One is if we had the same capitalization rate, i.e., we didn't expense as much in 2024, then we would have had GBP 2 million of extra CapEx and GBP 2 million less OpEx. So that's just looking on a like-for-like basis on a constant capitalization rate. Deal costs, I think it should be no surprise given STARFACE, Placetel, BrightCloud, Coolwave and others that maybe we didn't go ahead with, the due diligence costs were GBP 1.9 million up year-on-year. Unlike I know some other businesses out there, we don't split those out as an adjustment. We flow those through as normal course. Finally, the kind of strange one, there's a few here, but the strange one of R&D tax credits. Clearly, if you spend less CapEx, you get less R&D tax credits coming through, and we had GBP 1.1 million less R&D tax credit coming through. There is a slight net contingent release associated with Satisnet and Pragma that goes the other way. But all of that leads you to a view that actually the organic growth was around GBP 8.6 million. But of that, GBP 4.9 million is what I would call underlying kind of true year-on-year, which gets you to around a 3% increase year-on-year. I know those in the room who do all the modeling will do it their own way, but it gives you just an idea on a like-for-like basis going forward. Back to the primary statements, balance sheet. I won't spend too long because I've got to speed up, as Andrew looks across at me, on that side. There's two things I'd like to pull out here. One, when you look at the main balances, there are kind of significant increases in receivables and payables, et cetera. That is associated with just the M&A purchases. And you'll find in the RNS, both the PPA adjustments we've made, but also, you can see the balance sheet that we've taken on with the transactions. I think that's one point to note. And the second point to note is -- the second is at the bottom there, which was just the release of Satisnet and Pragma, I mentioned earlier, in the contingent consideration. We finished paying off Mission Labs. You'll see, again, in the RNS, we have quite a lot of disclosure now on the contingent consideration, so you can map through all of those sides. And needless to say, I'll say it again, we finished with GBP 153.7 million of cash. That was pre the STARFACE transaction, but it leads me nicely on to the cash flow. Again, a few comments. I'm going to keep saying 96% conversion, not 108%, as I said before, because of the prepayments prior year, but well above the 90% guidance that was provided. So another really strong year of cash conversion. When you look at the bottom, you can see there was a GBP 17.8 million net cash increase. This was after our normal progressive dividend policy of GBP 17.3 million, acquisitions of over GBP 15 million, our share buyback of over GBP 27 million, that list keeps going on, but we still keep generating cash, and I think that's the main point to take away. The only other slight anomaly this year is the increase in taxes paid, which you'll see go -- went from GBP 15.3 million in 2023 to GBP 23.9 million, so quite an increase in taxes paid. That's a result of us making more profit, which is not a bad thing. But also, in the prior period, we had some exceptional items. And in 2024, we had some due diligence costs, which were not tax deductible as well. So when you work through -- and again, there is a note in the RNS that takes you through how that comes about. But as I said, 96% cash conversion, finished the year at GBP 153.7 million, so another strong cash generative year. So the slide that often everyone waits for after listening to me go through 10 other slides. This is, as Andrew said, where I normally list the consensus, and give you a view. We can't do that this year as a result of the prospectus and moving to Main. However, with Peel Hunt and Deutsche Numis, our brokers' help, this is what I am allowed to say on that side. Firstly, I haven't mentioned, I know Andrew did, the share buyback announcement at -- went out 2 minutes after the first RNS with a GBP 50 million share buyback. If you recall, we have an RCF facility of GBP 130 million that we took out as part of the STARFACE transaction. We drew down GBP 30 million related to STARFACE. So we clearly have liquidity to support both, the share buyback and the dividend, subject to the AGM that we announced today of 13p, 19.5p for the full year. So certainly enough funds. You'd also see in the going concern statement in the RNS that we gave a February month-end update. And we're actually -- as we stand here today, we're in a net cash position. So although we're taking GBP 30 million on the RCF, given the working capital cash that we have in the business, where GBP 17 million plus is the number you'll see. So we're actually sitting here before we start the share buyback in a net cash position at the end of February. When we do look out to 2025, we're not giving official guidance. But as Andrew said, we're excited about the German acquisitions. Andrew and I have spent a lot of time in Germany, and we're heading out there next week. But it's also supported by satisfactory group organic growth, and that might come up in the Q&A. Everyone I've spoke to this morning asked, "What does satisfactory mean?" On that side, we'll see on that side. And we're making good progress in the integration in Germany, which Andrew will come to. And then the final, final comments, and this is the final one, is just to provide a few numbers, which will help with the modeling. The national insurance, Andrew has alluded to the impact from U.K. SME. We ourselves have over 1,500 people in the U.K. So that's hitting us by around GBP 2 million, and that's not just the 13.8% moving to 15%, but also, the banding change as a result of that. So that's just to give people a view. And I think what I've seen from analysts, most of that is now included in their numbers. And then there are some anticipated adjustments. At the bottom, the bottom one, I think I've alluded to before, we spent GBP 1.4 million in 2024 on our ERP and HR system. We said it was a 2-year program, totaling GBP 3 million. So this is just the remainder of that, the GBP 1.5 million coming through in 2025, and that's on budget and on course. There is -- there are costs. Andrew has mentioned the accountants. There's lawyers, there's accountants, there's entry fees. That is similar to people who we're following, Alpha and others is around GBP 2 million expected cost on that side. And then finally, with STARFACE, with that acquisition that was completed on February 19, there were a number of transactional costs associated with that, which were estimated to be between GBP 4 million and GBP 5 million. Again, those last 3 items expected to be adjusted for, whereas the GBP 2 million NI is an ongoing cost. So that will just come through a normal course. That's it. Very happy to answer any questions in the Q&A at the end. I will now hand over to Andrew, who will give you an update and give you some more disclosure on Germany.

Yes. Well, thank you very much indeed. Right. So we call this section, catchy title, Update on Market Trends and Business Units, and it is an update. So there's no major pivots that we're about to announce. One of the things about Gamma is, it's a bit of an oil tanker business and an oil tanker sort of industry. Things tend to move relatively slowly. You'll have seen this slide before, but again, I just wanted to sort of run through it and remind you what Gamma is about and where we play in this market. So Gamma occupies what is almost a unique position. The global tech giants and the partners want to come and talk to Gamma. So we're talking about people like Microsoft, we're talking about Cisco. I have a couple of dinners this week with other people that you'll know, who want to come and talk to us because we have this amazing distribution reach. We have thousands of partners across Europe, reaching tens of thousands of small businesses across Europe. We have access to hundreds, if not thousands, of CIOs in enterprise and public sector as well. So we have this amazing reach. And why do we have that reach? Well, it's just a wonderful symbiosis. We have that reach because actually we're good at what we do. But also, fundamentally, we have all of those relationships with the tech giants and the large partners. So it just works really, really well. But we're not merely a distributor of commerce platforms and things. Gamma is a carrier. We have a network in the U.K. We have a network in the Netherlands and Spain and in Germany as well, which means we can do voice enablement, which means if we're selling a communications platform, we can provide numbering on that platform, we can carry the calls. And again, I've got an example of where we won some work this year, just on the back of that capability. And then at the bottom, I think Bill mentioned it earlier on, we're currently rebuilding our portal. Why are we doing that? Because we want our customers and our partners to have a fantastic quality of service. So Gamma just sits in this great position where the tech giants wants to talk to us because of the distribution. Our customers want to talk to us because we have the relationship with the tech giants. But also, we have that carrier capability, and we have that fantastic quality of service. You'll have also seen this slide or a variation on a theme of this slide, which are the growth drivers, and we've been talking about these probably for the last year or so now, but they remain very pertinent, and they remain constant. One of the problems that we have when we're trying to explain Gamma to a new investor or even to our own employees is the world is more complicated. 10 years ago, I'd have been stood up here talking about plastic phones on your desk, making calls. And if you made more calls, we made more money. These days, you want to do video calling. You want to integrate with WhatsApp, which you didn't want to do 15 years ago because it didn't exist. You'll want to integrate with CRM systems. And as the world becomes more complicated, I think our story becomes more complicated. For those of you who are modelers, modeling it becomes more complicated. But fundamentally, we have more opportunities to increase the ARPU from customers because they have more things they want to do with their communications, and therefore, we can charge them more money. And you'll see that sort of come through. Second thing, we're going to kind of keep going on about it. We're very excited about Germany. We've got lots to say on that, so I won't go through that now. But the German market is still very, very underpenetrated compared to certainly the U.K. But even in the U.K., going on to point 3, you've still got somewhere between 40% and 50% of businesses in the U.K. using a hardware PBX with Gamma SIP, which is great because they're buying Gamma SIP. So we're very excited about that. But over time, they will migrate to cloud products. And the ARPU goes up because in the U.K., we don't sell those hardware boxes. So we only get the SIP revenue, but we can increase our ARPU by getting the communication platform revenue as well. And the fourth thing, PSTN switch-off in the U.K. BT keep putting the date back, which is perhaps less helpful, but there's 3 things that we're doing to exploit the PSTN switch-off. The first is we have our product PhoneLine+ that we launched a little while ago. It's a single-line replacement product for micro businesses. We've got 34,000 users on that. And in the next few months, we're going to launch the next iteration of PhoneLine+ that just enables our customers to do more things, which is great. Secondly, we have a good fiber offering, working with our partners. So again, people like BT and PXC, and that's going to be on our new portal over the next couple of months as well. Again, just enabling our customers to come and pick the right fiber solution for them. And the third thing that I think we're calling out probably for the first time here is, we have a product or solution rather called FUSION IoT, that was developed by our German team. It's an IoT solution. We've brought that into the U.K. now, and where we have end users who've got single lines going into things like lifts, like alarms, where they're just monitoring something, IoT is the obvious replacement for those single lines. So again, that's going to be launched over the course of the next couple of months in the U.K. to small business. So that's the market. Let's talk about the various business units. So Gamma business, this is where we're selling mainly through channel partners, mainly to small businesses, and that's about 80% of what we do. But as I said, what I wanted to focus on this morning was the 20% of the business that we don't really talk about, which is our Service Provider business. It's about GBP 76 million out of the GBP 370 million. So it's about 20%, 21% of Gamma business revenues. And it's selling to a slightly different type of partner to our regular channel partners. It tends to be people like ISPs, like MVNOs, like cloud communications providers, like we were talking about earlier. And what does Gamma provide for them? Well, actually, it's very simple. If you're a cloud communications provider and, you want to provide telephony in a country, you're going to need phone numbers. And you may not have phone numbers in that country. Gamma has lots of stock of phone numbers in all the countries in which we operate, and we're able to sub-allocate those to our partners who are able to sub-allocate them to their end users. We can also route calls in and out of those numbers. So rather than just having the commerce platform, you've now got the commerce platform with the ability to make and receive calls. As I said at the beginning, that's exciting for us for 2 reasons. The first reason is because more and more provide -- if you think about some of the names -- again, they don't really like us naming them. But if you think about that, Gartner Magic Quadrant, and you think who's up there towards the top right, those are the kind of people that don't have comms networks in each country, and those are the people that we're dealing with. And more people are buying some of their solutions. But the really exciting thing is following our Coolwave acquisition, we can now begin to offer that in nearly 20 countries. We say it's 20 countries. You're really good at math because you're all analysts, you'll see there's 16 flags up there. So I don't know where the other 4 have gone. Maybe they don't have flags. Who knows? But anyway, the notes are definitely saying to me there's 20 countries, and we've got 16 flags up there. So anyway. But the point being that one of the things we're going to be doing throughout the rest of '25 and into '26 is talking to the people that we're already working with in the U.K., about providing that business for them outside of the U.K. So again, we see this as a growth business. And we just want to sort of call it out this morning because it will be something that I think we're going to be talking about a little bit more as well as the rest of what Gamma business does as well as all of the good stuff that we do through our channel partners, to our small business customers. Enterprise, I wanted to talk about, and I'll show you some logos of business that we've won during 2024. But I want to focus on some of the acquisitions that we've made and how they're helping us to win business. So the first acquisition, just to remind you, was a business called Exactive. I have to say I couldn't remember exactly when we bought Exactive. I thought it was either 2019 or 2020. So I thought what I'll do, I'll just type that into Copilot really quickly, "Did Gamma buy Exactive in 2019 or 2020?" Microsoft told me with an amazing amount of confidence, Gamma bought Exactive in 2023, which I know isn't true. So we're safe yet. AI is not yet taking over the entire world. So yes, absolutely. So there are some things it can do, some things it's less good at. But anyway, so we talk about Exactive, which ironically was our Microsoft capability. Satisnet was our security capability that we bought in '23, and BrightCloud was our customer experience capability that we bought about 6 months ago in '24. So here are some logos. You will know these companies very, very well. I think probably our most high-profile win in '24 is Morrisons. We're absolutely delighted to be working with Morrisons. We've been seeking them out for some time to work with them. And the first thing that we did for Morrisons is we're putting in a brand-new network for them that's covering 2,000 sites across the U.K. That's going to be a high-speed network that helps them kind of really fulfill their e-commerce ambitions. So they work with people like Amazon, Deliveroo, Uber, and they need a good in-store network to do that. And we were able to win that business fundamentally because we just didn't turn up and sort of talk about network speeds and all the techy stuff. We just listen to the business problems, what are they trying to do, and how can we solve them. So we won the network. And then we're also now providing SIP to them over that network. We've sold PhoneLine+ into Morrisons as a communications platform. And we're also now selling them security services using our Satisnet capability. So again, it's a network win followed by voice wins and a security win, other things that we're really, really good at. The AA, some of you who have been following Gamma for some time will remember, we've had this logo up before -- years ago. Gamma helped the AA move from 08 numbers. So if you follow their vans up and down the motorway, some years ago, they had 08 numbers. Now they're all 03 numbers. That's just a cost saving for them. But more importantly than that, it gets Gamma to be known as a reliable technology partner. So when they wanted to put their mobile estate out for tender, they invited us to come and tender for that, and we won it. More recently, we've been working on a project with the AA to put our FUSION IOT solution into their vans, which is turning their van into a network hub, and that does a whole bunch of quite interesting things for them. But fundamentally, what it means is they can get to you if you've broken down more quickly. So what's that? That's better customer service for them. And ultimately, they can see more -- or say, see more customers in a day, fix more breakdowns in a day, which again is good for them. We're also working on a security solution now with the AA, and that's going to be a partnership between Gamma's network capability, Cisco's SD-WAN capability and the security capability that we have through Satisnet. So bringing those 3 things together, we're providing now a security solution for the AA. So again, it just demonstrates that we win the first project, and then we move on to other projects. Edmonton Electrical is a brand-new customer for us this year. So Edmonton Electrical, as you probably know, they've got a number of stores and warehouses around the country, and they had lots and lots of different PBXs that were running locally. And what they wanted was a single-cloud PBX that could just work across their entire estate. With our partners at Cisco, we bid Webex, and we won it. And why did we win it? Again, it's that network capability together with the cloud communications platform. And put very simply, when we actually put our solution together and we trialed it, ours actually works. And I won't tell you who we were up against, but not all of the pilots that they tried did work. But it just goes to show you it's the cloud communications platform coupled with the network that actually matters when you're bidding these country -- companies. And the final one down there, Swansea City and County Council. Again, that's been a SIP customer of ours for some time, but they're one of these people who have SIP going into a hardware solution, and they wanted to move to UCaaS and also a CCaaS offering because obviously, lots of people phone the council. They had invested quite heavily in Teams. So they already had the E5 licenses that you need to voice-enable Teams. So they wanted a Teams-heavy solution, but they needed the contact center offering. So what we were able to do is take Teams because we work with Microsoft. We were able to take Cisco's contact center because we work with Cisco. We were able to take a proprietary solution that we've got called Cloud UCX that we acquired with Exactive a few years ago, and knit all of that together into a solution that worked for Swansea, so they could leverage what they've already done with Microsoft, and we could give them the best-in-class capability on the back of Cisco's contact center solution. So just hopefully, some examples of what we do, and how the acquisitions have helped. Gamma Europe, again, Bill sort of alluded to it earlier. Our Spanish business is going well. Netherlands business, it's a tough market in the Netherlands. It's quite a saturated market in the Netherlands. But we really wanted to talk about Germany. And one of the questions we've been asked lots about Germany at the moment is, "What is the size and scale of your German business?" Because we bought Placetel back in September, October time, so you've only really got 1/4 of Placetel results in the numbers and none of STARFACE. So what we've attempted to do is throw together a -- sorry, throw together, detailed analysis of our German business by aggregating what would FY '24 have looked like if we add up Gamma Germany as it was with the Placetel business for the year, with the STARFACE business for the whole year. There's a few GAAP issues going in there. So these are approximate numbers, but hopefully it gives you an idea of scale. So as we sit here today, the run rate for Gamma Germany, revenue, EUR 125 million; EBITDA, around about EUR 23 million, EUR 24 million. We've got 450 employees in 5 sites across Germany. So as I mentioned earlier, for the first time, we've really got coverage in Germany. We've got Koln up there in North Rhine-Westphalia, Karlsruhe down in Baden-Württemberg. And then over in Bavaria, we've got Hof, Munich and Starnberg. So we've got really, really good coverage. We've got over 0.5 million cloud seats in Germany, which puts us up there, I think, certainly in the top 3 of cloud providers in Germany. But in addition to that, we've got nearly 400,000 users on hardware. So one of the things that STARFACE were able to do is to go to customers who say, "We quite like your platform, but we don't like cloud. We don't want to go to the cloud yet." Well, STARFACE can provide it on a piece of hardware that you can put in your own server room, nobody can get to it or touch it, that's yours. But when you're ready to move to the cloud, it's very easy for us just to flip a switch and move you into the cloud. So we've got 400,000 users on hardware that can move to the cloud. We also have 200,000 users on something called Estos, which is another part of the STARFACE business that we acquired. And what Estos is, is it's a sort of UC overlay. Again, it's peculiarly German product that sits on top of a hardware PBX. Again, if you're sitting there going, "I'm not ready to move to the cloud. I want to have a hardware PBX, but I quite want voice and instant messaging and all the other stuff you associate with the UC," Estos can sit on the top of that and sort of provide you a kind of UC solution on hardware. And we've got another 200,000 users on that. And then our FUSION IOT product, we've got 44,000 SIMs out there. So I hope you agree, it's actually a sizable German business of scale. And the thing that really excites me, and sort of Bill alluded to this earlier, is if you go back to the graphs that Bill showed you a few minutes ago, the size of Gamma Germany today isn't 1 million miles away from the size of Gamma U.K. when we floated Gamma U.K. 10 or 11 years ago now. And that's one of the things that makes me so excited. It makes me so excited because when you look at the German market, the state of the German market looks a bit like the U.K. market looked all those years ago as well. So what's that graph telling you? This is from an organization called Cavell. It's independent third-party data. We've shown you Cavell data before. And I think we generally sort of fessed up to the fact they tend to be a little bit optimistic. So I'll just sort of put that thought out there with you. But if you look at the end of '24, Cavell telling us there's just over 5 million cloud users in the U.K. Now again, depending on who you read -- sorry, in Germany, quite right. Thank you, Bill. There's just over 5 million cloud users in Germany. Depending on who you read and who you study, the total German market is somewhere between 25 million and 30 million users attached to telephony in some way, shape or form, we believe. What Cavell is saying -- so penetration somewhere between 15% and 20% is what people are sort of saying, but definitely sub-20%, everybody would agree on. Cavell then saying over the next 4 years, that doubles. So even 4 years from now, you've got sort of 30%, 35% penetration in Germany. So Germany, as we've seen in the U.K., as Gamma has grown over the last 10 years, very steadily, very methodically over the U.K., the German cloud PBX market is going to grow very steady, very methodically over the next 10 years. And Gamma is in a really, really good place to exploit that. Why are we in a good place? Because we've got the entire solution set now, and we'll kind of come at this in a couple of different ways. But we've got Placetel, which was the acquisition we made in September. That's a digital-first solution. It's digital. Many of our customers still come to us through partners, but it just enables small businesses, sub-10 users to go online, manage their telephony very easily, and it's a really nice solution. Then as of a few weeks ago, we now have STARFACE, which is a fantastic mid-market solution in Germany, providing a very flexible cloud PBX experience. And at the top end, we work with Cisco. I talked about our Estos product a moment ago. So our Estos product can give larger businesses a UC type of experience even if they want to use hardware. Hardware is still really important in Germany. And I mentioned again a minute ago, STARFACE still has a hardware offering. So right now, as we sit here in Germany, for a business of pretty much any size in Germany, we can provide you with either a hardware or a cloud offering that will give you the communications platform you need. And of course, Teams is down there. Now we've launched Operator Connect in Germany. We've got a whole 1,000 seats on there. I have a really nasty feeling that may make us one of the biggest providers in Germany, but we've got -- we can provide that as well. We continue to look for other solutions that we need. The other way of looking at that is actually to sort of think about the chart that I showed you right at the very beginning of the presentation. This is what Gamma looked like when we were stood up here 12 months ago. We had a fantastic SIP trunking business that we bought a few years ago over in Hof, and we had a great mobile business. But we were a bit weak in cloud, and we were a little bit weak in some of the areas of voice enablement. And I can remember saying, if you were here 12 months ago, there's 2 or 3 situations in Germany that I think we can unlock over the course of this year. I'm absolutely delighted we did unlock them over the course of this year because we're just in a very, very, very different place now in terms of that business. Organically, what we knew we were going to do was launch Teams voice enablement. So as I said a minute ago, Operator Connect is available in Germany, and we work with Cisco in Germany at the enterprise end. And we haven't spent too much time talking about it, but getting our Enterprise business into Germany and winning large German clients is something that we very much want to focus on as well over the next year or 2. But since we've done the acquisitions, we now have that sort of full-service cloud-based communication suite. So basically, what I showed you earlier on. This, you probably can't see very well, but that's a Gamma Service Provider. And again, I mentioned a few minutes ago, Service Provider is something we want to launch in various European countries, certainly including Germany. And then connectivity, we can sell you Ethernet and broadband in Germany, but we need to get better at it, and we need to get better coverage of that. So that's one of my challenges over the next year or 2. But hopefully, you sort of get the sense, you get the excitement. Gamma Germany looks like Gamma U.K. looked like 10 years ago. The German market looks like the U.K. looked like 10 years ago, and we have got the bits now to exploit that market in a way that we didn't 12 months ago. So still very excited about the U.K., very excited about the Netherlands, very excited about Spain, but I do think we've built something special in Germany over the last 12 months, just to labor the point. So moving to the outlook. As I say, Gamma business, I'm excited about what we're doing with small business. I'm excited about what we're doing with channel partners. I'm excited about all of those SIP customers that are currently using SIP+ hardware that are going to be moving to the cloud over the course of the next few years. And we're excited about the capability of our Service Provider business and how we think that can grow both inside and outside the U.K. Gamma Enterprise, we're winning, and we're winning because we're good, but we're also winning because we made some great acquisitions, and we're knitting those together and providing our customers with a full technology stack, which is great. And in Europe, again, Spain, Netherlands, carry on growing. But in Germany, we've now got scale. We've got a great solution set. We've got a fantastic partner base. We're not entirely sure what's going to happen tomorrow, what Rachel Reeves will or won't say. But whatever happens to the U.K. economy over the course of the next 12 months, the fundamentals of Gamma's business remains strong. We've got high recurring revenue. We have stable margins. Bill talked about the cash conversion earlier on. And fundamentally, what we do, providing communication, is critical to every single one of our customers and every single one of their end users. And what we've seen if taxes change or whatever changes, investment changes and the economy gets a little bit softer, Gamma carries on growing in periods of a softer economy. It may just grow a little bit more slowly than it grows when the economy is buoyant. And then finally, we continue to look for M&A opportunities. We know we've got a job of work to do to integrate our German business, and we're already on that. As Bill said, we're over there next week. I'm spending half my time in Germany at the moment, just making sure we get that integration right so that we can exploit the opportunities that we've got going forward. But what we've bought has been accretive, and we carry on looking for other things that are accretive. So that's probably where I invite Bill to come and sit down with me at the front, and we can move into Q&A, if that's okay. Look, there's a row. Jamie, I'm going to let you -- they're all wonderful gentlemen. Jamie, that's your call.

Maurice from Barclays. Just a couple from me, please. Just on Germany. So in the slides, you put enough slides up saying that you've grown 18% in the U.K. over 10 years, and Germany, could look like the U.K. So people obviously assume or not assume but ask the question, does that mean you can take a GBP 25 million pro forma EBITDA and grow that 18% over 10 years and see where you come out? I mean if I look at the German market over the last 10, 15 years, it has been slower than the rest of Europe in mobile adoption, broadband adoption, everything. I'm just curious to your views too, if you think there's anything structurally different about Germany, which might make you think that you couldn't just extrapolate the 18% CAGR you've got. And then just a sort of second last question, in the Dutch market, you sort of brush off the declines there as it's a mature market. But in fairness, KPN, VodafoneZiggo are doing okay in the Dutch market. There's no disruptive forces seemingly. So curious to kind of dive under the hood slightly as to is it as simple as it's mature? Or is there some more sort of other elements going on?

Do you want to go first?

Should I go first?

Yes, go on.

So we'll be very happy if Germany follows the 18% CAGR growth. I think when you look at it, the size of the market, Mittelstand, so the SME equivalent is larger in the U.K., so that's a tick in the box. Where we're starting from, as Andrew said, the 15% to 20% cloud penetration is a tick in the box. I think it comes down to cloud adoption and the rate of cloud adoption in Germany. It has shifted, but it hasn't accelerated. So we haven't seen -- I think when you came in 2018, Cavell was saying they thought it would be a much quicker cloud adoption across the piece. I think we've shown in even difficult macroeconomic times in Germany, we've managed to do high single. I talked about 8% gross profit organic. We're obviously now a larger business. So even in a poor macroeconomic environment where cloud has moved, but it hasn't taken off, you've got high single-digit growth. The political uncertainty, I think, is solving itself in Germany. Maybe that's too early to say, and I'll regret saying that. But the other aspect, I think everyone has heard about the potential fiscal stimulus that's going through as well. So when we're in Germany, Andrew and I meeting shareholders in Germany and elsewhere, the proof is going to be in the pudding, but there is a bit more confidence building that there's going to be kind of a more positive outlook going forward. Now it's not suddenly going to jump. So I think the jury is out with the 18%, 19% can definitely be baked in now, but I think it's not out in respect that we can get high single-digit growth in a market that -- in the macro economy that's not booming. I don't know, Andrew, if you want to add anything to that.

No, I think that's all very reasonable. Yes.

Yes. And then on the Netherlands, you're absolutely -- I think when you look at the penetration, it's close to kind of 70%. So the cloud penetration, KPN -- and we don't talk ill of competitors and sometimes we beat them up, but KPN have done a great job. I think they bought RoutIT, which was a Gamma-like company back in 2012, I think 10, 12 years ago. And so they kind of got a good advantage, early doors, in that marketplace. And maybe we -- turned out, it was the first place we went to in 2018. And we're not saying it's a poor market. It's just -- it is not growing for us at this time. There's opportunities, Operator Connect and others that we're doing well in, but it is a highly penetrated market with competitors. And when you look at the market size compared to Germany, the TAM is just not the same size as Germany. Obviously, we're not in France, but that's a significant TAM and Spain. So it's just a smaller market for us. As you might be aware, Gerben, who runs our Dutch business also covers Northern Europe. So we have managed to kind of get synergies across Netherlands and Germany. The CFO also covers Netherlands and Germany as well. So there's automatically some actions we've taken in order to grow that. But the materiality of the Dutch business, when you look through all the RNSs and elsewhere, you can see it's just a couple of percent of the overall group. So we're serious about it, but we don't want to -- when it's having a bit of a challenging time, it doesn't really steer the group in a different way.

I think I'd just add. I think it's a sort of vindication the other way around, not particularly in our favor, that scale matters. I think is -- so why have we been so excited about the fact we've now got scale in Germany? Because all of the people that you sort of -- KPN and Enreach doing well in the Netherlands, they've got scale, would be the other thing I'd say. So it doesn't particularly work for us so well in the Netherlands but certainly does in the U.K. and Germany.

Harvey Robinson, Panmure Liberum. Three questions, I think 2 more detailed and one quite short. I'll get a short answer. Just on ARPU, you give a bit of color in the statement on Page 5 about how Teams adds to your GBP 1.25 price. A couple of years ago, you gave us quite useful slide about how ARPU shifted within the Horizon portfolio. I think cloud PPX was GBP 8 and then the collaboration tools up to GBP 18. You obviously added the Ericsson partnership since then. Could you just give us a bit more feel for how those ARPUs change and whether there's any margin impact on that? But I think, obviously, you said, I think, historically that Ericsson hardware is quite prevalent with some of the people with SIP into hardware. So that's question one. Question two, just on networks. You've been quite clear about what you own and don't own in the U.K. in terms of the voice-enabled network at the core of the network. You've talked about BT, you talked about Three and EE. Could you give us sort of a facsimile of that would be? If you copy that into Germany, what that would be and what that strategy -- what you own, what don't you own, who do you partner with in the network? Because you've obviously made quite a point about voice enablement being important. And the final question is probably going to get a blunt answer. Why are you keeping Spain? Wouldn't it make more sense to recycle the capital into Germany? Sorry.

I'll take the first two. You take the Spain one because I was expecting maybe some of those. So I think, yes, Andrew did show previously a slide that kind of showed the SIP trunk and then an average of 4 users per SIP trunk, the GBP 1.25. And in the RNS, we talked about doubling to the GBP 2.50 with Teams. So I think it's that slide. And we always talk about kind of GBP 7.95. It's list price, not ARPU, if you recall, we gave list prices as a result of the situation. The iPECS list price is around GBP 7.50. So to give you that -- I think you're thinking about the SIP PBX migration as you move across, what are the different -- now you've got more of the stack, what are the different points. So iPECS is very similar to that. PhoneLine+, the entry level is GBP 3.95 as a list price. There's kind of PhoneLine++ because we're going to do different SKUs on that up to around GBP 6.95. Some have been launched or about to be launched, I should say, in relation to that side. You've talked about Microsoft already at GBP 2.50 around that level. And then actually, Webex gets a little bit more complicated because there's multi-tiers. So you kind of start with a common tier at GBP 4.95, and then you can go all the way up to more of that enterprise-grade level at CX. So on the kind of contact centers, it used to be called around GBP 23.95. Overall, I think we're around the GBP 8, GBP 9, if you kind of average out where we look. So as you see that SIP PBX migration, you've got -- yes, some might go to Teams, some will go hopefully go to Horizon, some will go to iPECS. Some will just want -- we talked about PSTN Switch-Off, the more simple basics, at GBP 3.95. But we now do have that menu. And the key is also the platform that we're building with the channel partners so people can choose quite easily. Because now rather -- 24, 36 months ago, it was pretty much Horizon, now we've got a whole suite of products, which is why the platform is so important. So hopefully, that answers. It doesn't give you the idea of the ARPUs, but we don't quote those size, but not far off the list price on those things. I would say just on -- if you remember, on Horizon, we do have those bolt-ons. I think you've heard of Contact, Horizon Contact, which is a much healthier, GBP 18 per use on that. So -- but that's less than the SIP PBX migration. That's the bolt-ons that go thereafter. Now good that I did my research because it's not my expertise to look at that German infrastructure side of things. But you're right, we -- as a result of all of the acquisitions we've got, there's the -- we have a network infrastructure, which is dedicated links between our data center space and the telecoms, and I'll talk about our data centers in a moment. But Germany, I think you're very aware, we have data centers in country due to GDPR. We have dedicated rack space where we host all of our computers, so all the UCaaS platforms, the IT platforms. And then as Andrew said, we've got our own SIPs. We have our own voice-service infrastructure. Now with Placetel, with STARFACE and with our own HFO, which had the SIP voice business. And by the way, HFO already provided to STARFACE SIP. So we knew the STARFACE, and that's how the relationship started many, many years ago with Andrew and the SIP -- with STARFACE on that side. But we have data centers in Frankfurt, in Hof, which is where our HFO business is based. We have a voice center in Nuremberg and Frankfurt as well. And the idea is, over time, we will bring those data centers together because there will be some synergy that we can get on that. But the key for us is actually we have the rack space. So to scale, we're not digging up, as Andrew said, roads. This is data center space to scale. It's putting more switches and elsewhere into those data centers, and there's plenty of rack space to do that. So we don't have any barriers to scale. Is there anything you want to add, Andrew?

Yes. I mean I suppose yes, absolutely. I mean on the -- the other bits and pieces. So if you think about the mobile, getting an MVNO in Germany is virtually impossible for regulatory reasons, but we work with all of the main mobile operators. So we've got agreements. This is going to test me. Who are? But certainly with Deutsche, Telefonica, Voda and there's one other that somebody will share in a minute, the main mobile networks. And I sort of briefly alluded to fiber. Fiber in Germany is, a, because their rollout is not great; and b, when we look at the sort of cloud PBX market in Germany, and we say that's about 10 years behind the U.K. The fiber market in Germany strikes me, and again, some of you are probably even close to it than I am, is even further because you've got all these little regional fiber providers that are sort of cabling up individual towns and cities. And yes, we need to work on a solution so that we can provide fiber across the country. But it's a very -- the quick answer to it is, it's a very, very, very similar model to the U.K., and we're not digging up the road. We're not building our own mobile network. We have got our own voice network. As Bill said, we need to do some consolidation. And again, that should be an opportunity for synergies going forward, just not having quite as many data centers. So that's Germany. Spain. I think -- yes, I mean, there's a number of reasons for keeping Spain. I mean the main one is it goes back to that sort of arrow diagram. The fact that we have a business in Spain is actually very attractive for some of the people that we partner with. And while that business is growing, yes, okay, it's not growing as much as Germany is growing, and I think it won't grow as much as Germany is growing, but it's washing its own face. It's growing. We're learning about the Spanish market. We're still looking for opportunities to consolidate that market. There's no reason for us to do anything different for the time being. There were hands going up all over. Sorry.

Carl Murdock-Smith from Citi. Just one question. In terms of the comment you made about the PSTN Switch-Off kind of being pushed back, I think you said repeatedly. I mean in terms of the current deadline, I think, is January 2027. What's your view of that? And I suppose, is your comment about the delays, is that -- there's still the same scale of opportunity? It's just being pushed more back towards that deadline? Or is it that the scale of opportunity is actually smaller than you thought?

No, I think the issue is the -- that's pretty really bad analogy, but the sort of fire isn't getting towards the end of the burning platform maybe as quickly as we thought it was going to do. So people aren't -- in theory, I think it was the end of 2025 originally, people would be really compelled to buy all of those things that we were talking about a minute ago, so PhoneLine+, FTTP, IoT to replace lift lines and things. And human nature being what human nature is, other things are sort of interesting for the next 12, 18 months. So I think the scale of the opportunity is still there. It's just taking a little bit longer to crystallize.

And some of the PhoneLine+ growth is because of new builds because obviously, it's the SOHO side. So you can't have new copper lines, as I know you're well aware. So there is still some growth for the PhoneLine+ that's coming out as a result of PSTN, but it's just -- the whole switch off hasn't happened. It's just new build switch off has happened.