Gerresheimer AG (GXI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you, operator. First of all, I would like to impress a thank you, a very big thank you for your continued support of Gerresheimer. We have not had an earnings call for quite some time as we fully focused on completing our investigations and ensuring clean, robust and especially compliant set of 2025 financials. This was accomplished today, and we were able to publish our audited 2025 annual report. Our Management Board will explain our results in more detail. First, on the disclaimer. Please let me remind you that the disclaimer you can find in our full year 2025 slide deck will apply throughout this earnings call, and we assume your content to this -- consent to this. I will, therefore, not read it out loud. Please allow me some selected clarification. Due to rounding, numbers presented throughout this report may not add up precisely to the totals indicated and percentages may not precisely reflect the absolute figures for the same. Organic revenue and organic adjusted EBITDA include the revenues and adjusted EBITDA of Bormioli Pharma in both 2024 and 2025, which we acquired in December 10, 2024, and fully consolidate from the beginning of the financial year 2025, translated at the budgeted exchange rates for the financial year 2025. Thank you. And now let me introduce today's speakers on Page -- I'm glad that we have all three members of the new Management Board with us today: our CEO, Uwe Röehrhoff; our CFO, Wolf Lehmann; and Achim Schalk, the third member of our Executive Board. Our new Management Board is setting the tone from the top with a clear focus on governance, disciplined execution and transformation. Please note that the Q&A session will be opened at the end of the presentation. Now let me turn over to Uwe Röehrhoff, CEO of Gerresheimer, who returned to Gerresheimer in November of last year. Uwe?

Thank you, Guido. Good afternoon, everybody. Please turn to Page 4 of the presentation. I can only echo what Guido mentioned. As a new Management Board, our main focus right from day 1 has been on governance, cleaning up and driving transformation. It took quite some time and resources to complete all compliance investigations very thoroughly, whether on bill and hold or various investigations on different compliance controllership concerns, including extensive forensic investigations. We shared progress transparently as required along the way in our ad hocs. Please note, all findings have also been shared transparently with our auditors, KPMG, as well as with the authorities, BaFin. All investigations are now completed, fully booked and reflected in the financials we filed earlier today. Our banks, our creditors recognized we needed some extra time that clearly acknowledge our efforts and supported us broadly. They have given us time up to Q4 '26 before the leverage covenant becomes effective again. We are using this time rigorously to sell Centor and refinance the debt of the company. We are on track to sign and close Centor in our financial year 2026, latest by November '26. On the refinancing, we are working together with our adviser, Lazard, and of course, our supporting banking partners. Selling Centor and refinancing goes hand in hand and is vital to improve our capital structure. So far, we can report good progress. Our transformation initiative, Gerresheimer Transformation Offensive, gto is essential to improve our overall competitive position. We have more detail on our approach for you later in the day, below on guidance. We have a dedicated page coming up. Let me turn it over to Wolf to tell you more about the findings and corresponding corrections.

Thank you, Uwe. Let's turn to Page 5 on the corrections of 2024, our 2024 restatement. All corrections have a net impact on 2024 restated revenue of minus 2% or EUR 45 million and EBITDA of minus 7% or EUR 31 million. This is slightly higher impact compared to the prior announced interim status update of EUR 35 million revenue and EUR 24 million EBITDA impact back on 10th of February. Findings from all investigations are included, bill and hold supported with external specialists, various investigations also including forensic investigation as well as our own findings. Similarly, we had already communicated we would impair selected assets for around EUR 220 million to EUR 240 million, mainly stemming from impairing certain development projects of Sensile Medical AG, that is our business unit, Advanced Technologies as well as assets of our Chicago plant. The final amount is EUR 258 million, also a slightly higher final amount as we completed the analysis. Note for parts of this complex impairment analysis, especially around Sensile, we hired an external accounting expert to get an appraisal to ensure we state the accounts correctly. We truly took matters seriously, invested time and resources to get matters right. On the BaFin investigation, we continue to fully cooperate with the authorities. We work very transparently and have shared and are sharing the results of the now completed investigations and our final accounts. We have received three requests from BaFin for information around year-end 2024 and one on first half of '25 so far, yet we expect a fourth and second request, respectively, which makes sense to us to push progress towards closure. Again, we fully and transparently cooperate with the BaFin authorities. Next to correcting 2024, we focus on ensuring 2025 is correct, and we will provide our annual accounts to the highest standards. Please move to Page 6, the corrected as-reported numbers for 2024 as well as 2025. Please remember, Bormioli was acquired in December 2024 with the first month of financial year 2025. Remember, we are one month ahead, which means 2024 is shown excluding Bormioli and 2025, including the acquisition. Also numbers are shown with the foreign exchange [ as is ] actual. On revenues, as reported, we grew sales to EUR 2.3 billion, up by around EUR 330 million. The top line growth is net-net driven by the acquisition of Bormioli. The organic growth was approximately flat, up 0.3%. The growth by segment varied. Organic growth of up plus 5% in Plastics & Devices was largely offset through around 6% lower revenues in Primary Packaging Glass due to the weaker sales in oral liquids and cosmetics as reported multiple times last year. On EBITDA, the positive revenue trend did not fall through to EBITDA. The results, including the acquisition was approximately flat year-over-year, slightly down EUR 4 million. In Primary Packaging Glass, moulded glass volumes were down. At our Chicago plant, we had operational issues running the furnace. As you know, this year, 2026, we made the decision to close the plant at Chicago Heights. Also at our largest glass plant at Lohr, we faced challenges during the ramp-up period for the new furnace causing inefficiencies. In Plastics & Devices, EBITDA in most business units was flattish, yet Syringe sales increased, including GLP-1 related sales yet were offset by Primary Packaging Plastics with a decrease due to lower oral liquid volumes, which we have explained before. These downsides mainly at Primary Packaging Glass offset the roughly EUR 60 million contribution coming from the addition of Bormioli. Let's move on to Page 8 with the pro forma 2024 numbers, including Bormioli already in 2024 to get closer to an apples-to-apples view, similar to the basis for our guidance. Upfront, let me cover how results came in with our -- versus our last guidance for 2025. Organic revenue growth, we expected negative 2% to negative 4%. We came in quite flat, up 0.3% organically, thus on a normalized as planned FX rate basis. Adjusted EBITDA margin, we guided towards 16.5% to 17.5%. And our final results are 16.8% within the range. On earnings per share, EPS, we had estimated high double-digit decline or negative earnings per share. And finally, we are at a negative EUR 1.65 earnings per share. On the next two pages, we will go in more details referring to revenue on EBITDA drivers by segment. Yet quickly on the overall company. Revenue reduced from approximately EUR 2.340 billion to EUR 2.320 billion, with Plastics & Devices up around EUR 50 million and Primary Packaging Glass down around EUR 70 million for a net decrease of around EUR 20 million. EBITDA year-over-year pro forma Primary Packaging Glass down EUR 56 million and Plastics & Devices and GAT combined down EUR 10 million year-over-year. For transparency, as 2025 is the first year of the acquisition of Bormioli Pharma, we show the year-over-year trend of Bormioli pro forma marked in the dotted line area. Revenue decreased for Bormioli Pharma pro forma from EUR 349 million to EUR 331 million, down EUR 18 million, mainly on the Plastics Packaging side. EBITDA quite flat from EUR 62 million to EUR 61 million adjusted EBITDA. Please note, Bormioli is split up and fully integrated into our segments. As such, we show this onetime for transparency reasons, but we won't do this going forward. Let's talk about the results by segments [ please ]. Let's move on to Page 9, showing the results of the Plastics & Devices segment. Just to remind you, this includes syringes, Medical Devices, Centor and Primary Packaging Plastics. Overall, Plastics & Devices grew year-over-year by around EUR 50 million to just under EUR 1.35 billion. Yet the revenue growth did not fall through and EBITDA came in slightly down by minus EUR 5 million and ended with EUR 315 million. EBITDA margin reduced to 23.5%, yet still a decent level of profitability. This reflects a mixed performance across the segments. By business unit, syringes, the EUR 32 million year-over-year revenue fell through to EBITDA and yielded plus EUR 8 million. Medical Devices delivered year-over-year EUR 25 million growth from major projects like autoinjectors and pens, yet as we ramped up, especially our U.S. Peachtree facility and are fully staffed, we have not yet seen sufficient incremental plant loading and revenue to fully cover the incremental year-over-year cost, resulting net in year-over-year EUR 2 million less EBITDA. Primary Packaging Plastics year-over-year revenue was down by EUR 8 million, driven mostly by oral liquids and EBITDA by EUR 10 million since next to less revenue falling through, also reducing inventory and therefore, production as well as unfavorable mix impacted earnings. Finally, Centor finished with pretty stable year-over-year trends. Uwe, would you mind covering Primary Packaging Glass segment, please?

Yes. Let's move on to Page 10. The results of Primary Packaging Glass segment for the old segmentation, Primary Packaging Glass is moulded glass and tubular glass. Overall, year-over-year in Primary Packaging Glass '24 to '25, we recorded about minus EUR 70 million less sales, down to EUR 983 million and less EBITDA of EUR 56 million year-over-year, down to EUR 126 million. Subsequently, adjusted EBITDA margin reduced to 13% Clearly, PPG performance is not at an acceptable level. Looking at the drivers by BU. Moulded glass reduced revenues by around EUR 52 million, driven by declines mainly in cosmetics and oral liquids. The EBITDA was even slightly higher -- the EBITDA effect was even slightly higher with minus EUR 54 million. Next to the lower sales and earnings falling through, significant operational issues at the U.S. plant at Chicago Heights as well as ramp up challenges at the largest glass plant in Lohr resulted in meaningful inefficiencies and lower EBITDA. In tubular glass, lower revenues with standard ampoules, vials and cartridges were not fully compensated by growth with higher-value products. However, the favorable product mix helped to keep the EBITDA flat year-over-year despite the revenue decline. Let me hand it back over to Wolf to walk you through cash flow.

Let's move on to Page 11, the usual EBITDA to cash flow walk. From EUR 384 million adjusted EBITDA down to operating cash flow at EUR 210 million, a 55% conversion rate. The main drivers in this walk are the just over EUR 70 million adjustments or exceptionals and EUR 101 million interest paid. Under adjustments, we grouped items that are so-called exceptional items on a run rate basis view. Main drivers are roughly EUR 18 million restructuring and reorganization, mainly the closure of our site at Bad Königshofen, EUR 27 million plant and furnace ramp up costs, capturing mainly Peachtree and Lohr ramp ups. Also around EUR 12 million M&A and refinancing costs, mostly around the acquisition of Bormioli. Net working capital was up EUR 22 million and taxes down EUR 31 million as well as others up EUR 7 million, more or less offset each other, leaving EUR 101 million interest to get down to operating cash flow of EUR 210 million, as mentioned. CapEx stood at EUR 295 million. We show the split between base and growth of around 1/3 base, 2/3 growth. And also for the two main segments, Plastics & Devices and Primary Packaging Glass, resulting in negative EUR 86 million free cash flow before M&A. On the next page, we review how the financial results, including cash flow, impacted our capital structure and financing status. Please turn to Page 12. On the left side, you see our usual update on financial debt and our adjusted EBITDA leverage shown in the left lower corner, stood at year-end at 4.95. The adjusted EBITDA leverage covenant is no longer applicable up to and including third quarter of 2026, yet we would have been compliant at year-end. Looking on the right side of the page, we show the upcoming maturities over the next quarters and years. As explained earlier, we're working on improving our capital structure through divesting Centor as well as a fulsome debt refinancing for which we mandated Lazard to support us. In our next chapter, we would like to review the latest guidance with you, talk about our transformation initiative and various housekeeping items before Uwe Röehrhoff closes with a summary and next steps. Please turn to Page 14, our latest guidance. As you know, we closed last year at around EUR 2.3 billion and 16.8% EBITDA margin. Due to the challenging economic environment, some project delays on the part of our customers and operational challenges, among others, those related to production ramp ups, we now expect revenues to be in the lower half of the EUR 2.3 billion to EUR 2.4 billion range, an adjusted EBITDA margin of approximately 17% to 18% and taking into account, amongst others, a reduced factoring volume, free cash flow before M&A between negative EUR 50 million to negative EUR 100 million. During the last 6 months, our focus has been on cash generation, and this is going to be our priority #1 for this year. We expect to deliver an acceleration of revenue growth and margin improvement during the second half of the year with first contributions of our transformation initiative, our gto initiative. Our customers have continued to support us during this phase of challenging news and uncertainty, and we'd like to use this opportunity to thank all of them. Next, we want to give you an update on our transformation initiative, gto, where we expect first impacts to come through in this year, which is one of the main drivers improving our profitability margin year-over-year from 16.8% to around 17% to 18% in this year. Achim, please.

Please turn to Page 15. We had to refocus the program on fast payback and cash conversion until the sale of Centor and our targeted refinancing is completed. With this focus, we expect to yield EUR 10 million to EUR 20 million EBITDA, equaling 50 to 100 basis points EBITDA margin improvement during this year. This is an important first step, however, with significantly larger potential midterm. Overall, the project covers five work streams, of which four are focused on profitability improvement. A few examples. For operations, optimizing our global footprint is part of this work stream, fewer sites in the right locations. The Bad Königshofen site was already closed last year. The Chicago closure announced for this year, and we are currently analyzing additional measures. Having the right staffing levels at our sites, but also as addressed in workstream 2 for SG&A and our administrative functions will drive cost efficiency. In procurement, immediate focus is the bundling of our purchases across our segments and business units, which we have not leveraged enough in the past. Our transformation partner, BCG INVERTO brings valuable expertise in this field. Finally, on Work stream 5, cash optimization. Immediate focus is on strict capital discipline as more CapEx rigor is key. In addition, classic work with a short-term focus on collections, adequate supplier terms as well as reducing slow-moving inventory, which is tying up cash. We have fully staffed our gto initiative and are executing. The program will accompany us through the entire next year '27 and also into '28. Turn over to page 16, the new segmentation since 1st of December '25, our start of the financial year 2026. Starting on the left with our largest segment, Containment and Delivery Systems, covering currently around 50% of sales. Included are Primary Packaging Plastics, Medical Device Systems, Advanced Technologies and Centor. As we are selling Centor, after the divestiture, the segment still represents a bit over 40% of the total sales of Gerresheimer. Primary Injectable solutions covering syringes and tubular glass represents around 20% of our sales, focusing on serving our customers through high-quality glass-based drug delivery solutions. Finally, moulded glass, we separated and run as our third segment. We have not yet decided on the timing of the announced divestiture, yet are progressing on forming a stand-alone moulded glass business. We have refreshed and upgraded the leadership team significantly and have hired a commercial leader, a new CIO. And just this month, our new business unit CEO, Daniel Winkler, started. Our first quarter '26 reporting will follow the new segmentation. Talking about next reporting time lines, I hand it back to Wolf with Page 17. Let's please go to the next page.

Thank you, Achim. On Page 17, on the left is our financial calendar and on the right, selected investor conferences we plan to attend. Q1, we estimate earliest July or rather August publication. The challenge is to ensure all findings and corrections in 2025 get properly accounted for by quarter. First half, we estimate for September or October. And third quarter for October might be a bit tight, but hopefully then back at our usual reporting rhythm. Our Annual General Meeting, we have currently planned for 1st September, details to follow. Referring to the new -- referring to the investor conferences, you see selected ones we plan to attend on the right side of the page. We sincerely apologize for various cancellations of participations at conference over the last month, yet we had to fully focus on getting all investigations done and obtain audited financials. Let me turn it back to our CEO, Uwe Röehrhoff, for closing remarks and next steps.

Yes. Please turn to Page 18. So we have cleaned up. We have completed all investigations transparently, and that is why we have achieved an unqualified audit opinion for 2025. Nevertheless, it is very clear, as written in the auditor's report as so-called emphasis of matter, we have two must rules, sell Centor and refinance our debt. We are laser focused on those two. Both go hand-in-hand and both we want to get done this year. On gto, we are getting first impacts coming through in the second half of '26, supporting our margin improvement year-over-year with much more potential in sight to get Gerresheimer performance back to the levels of the top performers in the industry. And beyond selling Centor and moulded glass on a total portfolio level, we are continuing our strategic review process and dialogue, including our Supervisory Board. I would like to again thank you for your support of Gerresheimer during these demanding times. Guido, please open the call for Q&A.

Thank you, Uwe. Thank you, gentlemen. Before we open the Q&A session, we would like to ask you to limit the number of your questions to two in order to allow everyone to ask their questions. Operator, please open the Q&A session with the instructions. Operator?

The first question is from Olivier Calvet from UBS. He's disconnected. I continue with the next question. Please try again. I don't know what happened. The next question is from Oliver Reinberg, Kepler Cheuvreux.

Can you hear me?

Yes. Please go ahead.

That's perfect. A few questions on my side. One on free cash flow. With the free cash flow guidance for 2026, can you just provide any kind of color, a, like what is the contribution here from Centor that is still embedded in this kind of guidance? And also any kind of color when you expect to turn free cash flow positive? Secondly, on the BaFin investigation, is there any kind of insights you can share with us? And thirdly, on a potential rights issue, would you still rule out any kind of use of equity going forward?

Okay. Can you hear us again?

Yes, I can hear you.

Mr. Oliver? Okay.

So back to your question on free cash flow. So currently, we have the negative EUR 50 million to negative EUR 100 million is excluding proceeds of Centor. And as we mentioned, we assumed Centor signing and closing in this year towards the end of the year or so, right? Then, BaFin...

Does it include the cash flow from Centor or not? Independent, I'm not talking about the divestment gains. I'm just talking about the...

Yes, it includes the operational cash flow of Centor, but it does not include the proceeds from selling Centor. Correct.

And any color on what contribution you expect from Centor because that's going to go? I mean, are we talking EUR 50 million roughly?

Say that again, Oliver?

Sorry, can you just give us any kind of color what would be the kind of cash flow contribution from Centor just to get a kind of feeling where cash flow would be without the Centor.

No, Oliver, we -- as you know, we don't provide financials down to the BU level. We stay on the segment level. Then your second question on BaFin. As I mentioned in the discussion, we fully cooperate with BaFin, and we're making great progress. And we take it from there, and we continue to do so. All I can only repeat, we are completely done with our investigations, whether it is our external investigations, whether it's on bill and hold, various other matters as well as our internal investigations, we're entirely done. All of those findings are reflected in the 2024 restatement as well as our 2025 financial accounts. And all the findings we have very, very transparently shared with BaFin with the authorities. And your third question was around rights issuance. As mentioned, currently, we're looking at a debt refinancing where we have mandated Lazard to support us, and that's our focus. Thank you, Oliver.

Can I just ask in terms of when you expect free cash flow positive, any kind of breakeven cash flow, any kind of color on that?

That's fair. I think we had our last guidance for 2026 that was for this year. I would say if it weren't for the lower factoring that we're now seeing, it would have already been the result. So we take it from there. We're not yet providing further midterm guidance. As such, let's see next time when we provide midterm guidance, let's talk about it then.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Olivier Calvet from UBS. The floor is yours, Olivier.

Hopefully, second time works better. Yes, just could you highlight specific areas of weakness that were the additional driver to the 2026 guidance cut? And then I just wanted to also come back on the free cash flow guidance. So I think your EBITDA guidance at the midpoint means about EUR 30 million cut. You mentioned less factoring. The CapEx, you didn't really touch on, but for the full year, you had talked to at least a base CapEx of close to EUR 100 million at the last results. So just wondering if you could add a bit of detail there.

Thank you very much, Olivier. Good to talk to you again. I think in terms of guidance, I think we have mentioned that due to what we saw so far in the first half of the year, a challenging economic environment and also some project delays with our customers and some operational challenges that had to do with finalizing the ramp ups. That is why we now lowered the guidance to the lower half of the range that we mentioned before, right? This is on revenue. And then you had mentioned cash flow also. Cash flow, the reason for changing the guidance is very much and mainly driven by our latest expectations on factoring and factoring goes one-to-one against working capital, and that impacts the cash flow. On the rest, if you say, on CapEx, no, on CapEx, we have a very strict capital discipline that we've much improved. And there, we rather spend less than previously planned.

Any sort of ballpark level you're looking to spend this year on CapEx?

No, we don't provide guidance on that right now.

Okay. And just on the revenue side of things, could you perhaps specify -- I mean, you changed the segments. There's just a question on what is kind of deteriorating? Is it within containment, within primary injectables, within moulded glass or a combination?

I think what we can do is you're right. Achim walked you through the new segmentation. We'll provide more details when we publish our first quarter results. That will be the first time when we publish results by the new segmentation.

Operator, next question.

Next question is from Richardson from Jefferies. Mr. Richardson, the floor is yours.

Just checking you can hear me.

You coming?

Can you hear me okay?

Very well.

Okay. Super. Maybe just two from my end, if that's okay. In the annual report, it details that the covenants while suspended for the rest of this financial year should have a target of 4.75x by the end of the year, which you will be held to us. I was just wondering whether this is an upper limit and what management's attitude as to how far below this target you hope to decrease the leverage? And just a second question, the decline in the PPG business margin was quite significant despite the Bormioli portion of that business increasing its margin from 14% to 18%, which implied the underlying business declined margin-wise to the degree of around 6.5%. I was just wondering what the causal factors were there because sort of a weaker end market seems like only a small portion of that contribution.

Thank you, Chris. Let me take the first question. I hope I got it right. The voice was a little low. But I think your question was that by year-end, we mentioned that we should have an EBITDA leverage covenant at 4.75 and how far below we would be against that. So good question. Now it's a very theoretic question, quite frankly, Chris, because as we mentioned multiple times, our current focus is we're going to sell Centor, and we're going to do a fulsome debt refinancing. And as such, it's a very theoretic question as to where we're going to be against those prior applicable debt covenants. So as I mentioned, we were debt even if we were under the old covenants, we were compliant at year-end of '25. As such, that's a very theoretical question. Again, our full focus is on selling Centor and then that would be a big step forward for the capital structure. And then we do a fulsome debt refinancing where I think we see very good opportunities in the institutional market as well as on the private side, and we will keep you posted on progress. And then I believe there was a second question on PPG. Maybe I'll hand it over to Uwe to answer that one.

Yes. Thanks, Chris, for the question. I think that was a very good observation. Obviously, the businesses in the legacy PPP businesses are the ones that cause us the largest amount of headache. And therefore, those businesses are also in the focus of our restructuring activities. We made a very quick decision on shutting down the Chicago plant that still operates for a significant part of this year, but it has -- it is clear that this plant has had a negative contribution on our performance. Secondly, we have a very strong focus on inventory reduction in our businesses that have led us in combination with our cash focus to tighten the production policy to address the inventory part. So -- but to where the margin needs to be, we have taken significant steps in the restructuring. First of those will hit in the second half of this year and mainly then also in '27 to bring the margin of the tubular glass legacy business and particularly the moulded glass business was the main driver back to up to respectable levels. But that is going to take a bit time.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Falk Sinß from FINANCE.

My name is Falk Sinß from FINANCE Magazin. I have two questions for the sale of Centor. How much do you hope to raise from the sale of Centor? And do you have a plan B in case the sale doesn't generate the desired proceeds?

I think Mr. Richardson has a follow-up question. Mr. Richardson, the floor is yours if you have any follow-up questions.

Yes. Sorry, I thought I would ask a follow-up. Just staying on Bormioli, I thought I'd query the decline in the margin of the Bormioli business in Plastics & Devices, which was 22.5% in FY '24 and is now 18% this year. And if I could squeeze in just another one after that, the decline in free cash flow to EUR 50 million to EUR 100 million is -- well, EUR 50 million plus versus the moderately positive free cash flow previously. I was just wondering what proportion of that is due to the reduction in the factoring activity as well? Is it the majority? Or is it quite a minor impact with the rest coming through from the operating performance of the business?

Yes. I think let me take the last question first. So absolutely, the majority is due to that due to factoring. And this is a combination of also within the factoring bucket, the majority, 80% we see in reverse factoring, so-called Cflox program that are not fully available to us. And then the rest is regular receivables factoring where we do less. We expect to do less in this year. And then your other question, I believe, was on Bormioli.

In the Plastics & Devices module.

Was it on Plastics & Devices? Yes, I can comment also, if you like, a little bit on that and then also Achim and Uwe can chime in. But I think if you go to our Page 8, sorry. You see in the dotted line, you see year-over-year Plastics & Devices, a negative EUR 16 million of revenue. And you do see for Plastics & Devices correspondingly a negative EUR 11 million EBITDA. So that is -- I think your question is that seems to be a quite high sales to EBITDA fall-through. I think that's correct to lose EUR 11 million EBITDA on EUR 16 million revenue is high. But you need to understand there that we partially have very modern, very automated plants. If you were to visit, for example, our operation in Rivanazzano in Italy, this is a very highly automated operation. And the fact that if you have then a little bit less plant loading, it really falls through at a high EBITDA range. On the other hand, please note, obviously, the other way around too. Once our growth initiatives are kicking in, you will see exactly the opposite.

Thank you. With that, we will close our call today. We are very happy to have follow-up calls with you. You know where to find us. Thank you, and bye-bye.