Haci Ömer Sabanci Holding A.S. (SAHOL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. Sorry for the disturbance. Welcome to Sabanci Holding's Q4 earnings call. Please refer to our disclaimer before we proceed with the presentation. As a tradition, our CEO, Cenk Alper is here with us today together with our Group CFO, Orhun Kostem. Let me leave the floor to our CEO. Cenk Bey?

Good morning, good afternoon, everyone. Before we review last year results, as I always do, I will address the strategic execution across our businesses during the year. This time, let's start with Mannok, where we are hosting this call. So together with our management team, we are visiting the Mannok in Ireland and tomorrow, we will be hosting a press conference in Ireland. Following our previous expansion in Spain with the acquisition of Buñol plant and ongoing grinding investments in the U.S., as you all know, we acquired Irish Mannok for EUR 253 million in October 2024. This is Çimsa's third major global expansion in the past 3 years, providing wide range of products such as insulation materials and sustainable packaging in addition to cement and cement-based products. This strategic move also represents Sabanci Group's most substantial overseas acquisition in recent history. Again, on the material technologies, we doubled our calcium aluminate cement at Çimsa Mersin plant in Türkiye, making us the third largest producer globally and further solidifying our position in the industry. In energy business, our YEKA-2 construction has been progressing as planned. At the end of 2024, we reached a total generation capacity of 3.9 gigawatts through acquisitions and new capacity additions with 47% of this capacity being renewable. Recently, Enerjisa Üretim secured a loan agreement of over $1 billion for the financing of 750 megawatts of the 1,000 megawatts under YEKA-2 project. As a creditor, the Development Finance Corporation is a key stakeholder in this financing and our objective is to finance the entire 1,000 megawatts capacity through that. In the U.S., the commissioning of the Cutlass II project, 272 megawatts solar power plant completed in June 2024, 2 months ahead of the original plan and started generating positive net income only 2 years after the establishment of Sabanci Renewables. The construction of the 232 megawatts Oriana Solar power plant is progressing in line with our projections with the commissioning scheduled for June 2025. Upon completion, we will have 0.5 gigawatt of operational capacity in the U.S. with a 60 megawatts storage capacity. Digital is another key component of our strategic priorities. And this is an area where we see significant synergies with our energy business. As we had suggested in our mid-term guidance, we are exploring opportunities with digital infrastructure businesses that have the potential to scale up significantly over the next 5 years and represent a much higher share in our net asset value by 2029. As a strategic move to reach these targets, we acquired an additional 65% of Bulutistan, Türkiye's leading cloud technology company, bringing our total effective ownership to more than 75%. Aligned perfectly with our objective of identifying scalable business models in the digital through Sabanci Ventures, we have recently invested in Quera, one of the leaders in quantum computing. We have made direct investments in 15 different companies to date, reaching a total investment amount of over $14 million through Sabanci Ventures. And finally, embracing collaboration and leveraging synergies among Sabanci Group companies is one of our top priorities. As a recent example of this, with our 2 financial services companies under the leadership of a single CEO, we have now launched the Financial Services and banking group SBUs into a single structure to enhance cross-selling opportunities, improve efficiency and accelerate growth. Now let's start with the results. Financial results are clear. 2024 was a challenging year due to hard inflation, macro prudential measures implemented under disinflationary program, impacting a lot of sectors, including banking as well as the gap between inflation and devaluation of lira in Türkiye. This posed a particular challenge for large groups like us that have banking and export-oriented businesses. Specifically, groups that consolidate banks reported net losses under inflation accounting as the banks with strong cash positions were severely punished by inflation accounting. However, our businesses continue to demonstrate good operational performance to navigate this environment successfully supported by our B2B portfolio. In 2024, Sabanci Holding delivered 6% combined top line growth. But more importantly, our operational profitability performance on a quarterly basis is impressive as we constantly improve our non-bank EBITDA margins during the year and the bottom line in non-bank turns from TRY 711 million losses to TRY 1.3 billion net income, excluding nonrecurring items and monetary losses incurred at holding balance sheet. Orhun will provide you more details on this. From the balance sheet perspective, the strength of our balance sheet allows us to lead our businesses through volatility and economic slowdown. We ended the year with a healthy leverage ratio of 1.4x and having a strong cash position just under $350 million. Our CapEx to sales ratio reached 13.5%, more than doubling over the past 5 years. This is on track with our recent announced targets to reach 15% to 20% in 2029. On the back of good operational performance and positive outlook for 2025, our Board has proposed a dividend of TRY 3 per share that will be subject to ordinary general assembly approval on March 27. This will be the 23rd year that we have paid dividends to our shareholders without any pause. We will remain focused on capital allocation and create value for all of stakeholders as our solid balance sheet is well positioned to seize attractive investment opportunities going forward. As part of our investment criteria, let me also summarize our ESG activities during the year. One of the major shifts we have made recently is to evolve our approach from a climate-focused one to a broader nature-centric strategy. We are committed to reducing Scope 1 and 2 emissions 15% by 2025 and 42% by 2030, ultimately reaching net zero by 2050. In parallel, we have made significant progress in reducing emissions, achieving a 20% reduction in Scope 1 and 2 emissions compared to 2021. We now start to track global operations and have set new water efficiency targets. As such, we aim to achieve our water-related targets as of 2030, while water management is also among our criteria for investments and acquisitions. We are also working to achieve circular inflow targets until 2030, design all key products with circular principles by 2050 and stop sending our waste to landfills and incineration. With our ongoing investments, we are on track to reach 4 gigawatts of renewable energy capacity by the end of 2026, representing almost 2/3 of our installed capacity. Furthermore, we have committed $5 billion spending to SDG-linked activities by 2027 with 24% of that commitment already realized as of end of 2023. Finally, Akbank's inclusion in Net-Zero Banking Alliance reinforces our leadership in sustainable finance and our commitment to a net zero future. With all our efforts around sustainability, we have gained significant momentum in our CDP performance. This year, almost all our 11 reporting companies managed to be included CDP Global A list in at least one category. This success, which we have demonstrated in one of the most prestigious indexes within the framework of international regulations is one of the clearest indicators of how strong a position we have on a global scale. We increased our score in the Dow Jones Sustainability Index and were selected for S&P Global Sustainability Yearbook for 2 years in a row. We hold leading rankings in major indices such as MSCI and LSEG and awarded 6 diamonds by EFQM's special award of outstanding achievements in sustainability. Now let me leave the word to Orhun.

Thank you, Cenk. Good morning, good afternoon, everyone, from Ireland from us. As Cenk was pointing out, we are sitting in the premises of Mannok, the acquisition that Çimsa has completed last October, which has already been integrated into our overall business. Now I'll try to walk you through the financial results for the quarter and for the year. And as usual, if you start from Page 6, obviously, I'll give you a little bit of a backdrop which I'm pretty sure if you're listening to the other Turkish companies, that must be something you're hearing, but still it's worth mentioning if you bear with me a little bit. Obviously, as we discussed throughout the year, 2024 from a commodity and energy prices point of view was a normal year given after the pandemic and the Russia's invasion of Ukraine, which hit the energy prices quite significantly in 2022. In the past 2 years, these have normalized. But other than that, we can say 2024 was a period where Türkiye’s economy was in transition, the disinflation program was in place and has implications across many of our businesses. First, of course, the macro prudential measures that are applied has impact on certain industries, mainly the banking industry where net income margin generation was quite challenging throughout the year, I'm pretty sure you must be -- when you talk to the Turkish banks, you must be hearing. There's a difference between inflation and devaluation, as you see on this page on the bottom left corner, which obviously impacts a lot of exporting companies quite adversely like Çimsa, which is hosting us today, like Akçansa, like Brisa or like Kordsa in our portfolio, which actually reports in dollars, but has to be translated into Turkish lira. The interest rates are high, even though the banking industry doesn't benefit that because of those macro prudential measures, but the interest rates hit the bottom line of industrial businesses and it did across 2024. We're applying inflation accounting for especially businesses like ours in Sabanci Holding where the equity base is strong that results in serious monetary losses, which we incurred in the period, I'm going to refer those to you for Sabanci Holdings specifically. And of course, if you take Akbank, for example, which has some leading capital adequacy ratios in the sector, it also suffers higher monetary losses, which obviously impacts Sabanci Holding P&L in this period as well. I'm pretty sure you must be following, I've seen through certain reports that there are certain impairments, which went especially in the last quarter of the year. In a year like this, from a prudency point of view, that's something you should expect from us. And finally, deferred taxes. If you follow our financial statements and look at our footnotes and refer to footnote 4, I'm sure you're going to see the changes in the taxation line between 2023 and 2024, which are very serious in certain businesses like our energy business, for example, I'm sure you must see the swing. And part of that swing comes from the simple fact that there's a very serious difference between CPI and PPI, where we use CPI for IFRS and PPI for statutory accounting purposes, which impacts the bottom line through deferred taxes. So this is the backdrop for -- let's say, for what's been happening in 2024. And in this backdrop, if I walk you through the next page, basically, from a 50,000 feet point of view, our combined revenues were up by 6%, EBITDA down 44% and with net loss from net income between 2023 and 2024. Now here, as I was referring to, a bigger part of our business, obviously, is Akbank. And just like any other bank in the banking sector, Akbank is adversely affected by the disinflation program, certain restrictions on the banking sector in terms of credit growth and et cetera, and obviously, monetary losses that hit its bottom line. Needless to say, in addition to which, as I'm sure you will remember, the banking sector still pay relatively higher taxes based on their noninflation accounting results. So that's all included in our bottom line, a little bit of extraordinary for this year. If you look at the nonbank side of the business, we see some revenue contraction by about 12%, but a much slower EBITDA contraction. In fact, we've seen our EBITDA margin increasing just under 100 basis points throughout the year. And in fact, except for the material technologies segment, all of the -- our business segments have posted positive EBITDA margin expansion in the year. And the materials segment is mainly driven by what's happening across Kordsa's global markets. And I'm sure if you listen to our friends in Kordsa, you must have heard how they are now in the process of rearranging the business to be more competitive going forward basically. If you look at the bottom line, again, I will just iterate the fact that of the TRY 4.3 billion nonbank net loss you see on a consolidated level here, there's TRY 5.6 million monetary losses only incurred by the holding company, which is driven by, a, the cash that we hold and, b, obviously, the fact that our equity is quite strong, which results in this balance sheet position. As far as the impairment piece is concerned, I see that there were references that, again, there are, as usual in a year like this, inventory impairments and et cetera, but the biggest part is coming from our Radiflow business, our cybersecurity business, I think that's to the tune of $23 million, $24 million. And that's mainly driven by the fact that given the Gaza incident that started at the end of 2023, you may remember, this was an Israeli-based business and of course, there is an impact on that business because of what's been happening throughout 2024 basically. And just from a prudency point of view, we wanted to make sure we reflect that onto our bottom line for this year. Hopefully, going forward, we now have a stronger base to continue building not only the Radiflow business, but obviously, our other businesses as well. And as you may remember, throughout the year, if I can take you to the next page, what I told you was and I'm going to show you again that on a quarter-by-quarter basis, our nonbank operating performance have been improving. And this you see is our last quarter, the fourth quarter of the year. But on a consolidated level, you see a 9% -- combined sorry, a 9% revenue growth, just under 40% EBITDA contraction, and again, from net profit turned to net losses in the period. If we look at the nonbank side, though, we're seeing a 4% revenue contraction and a 76% EBITDA improvement. In fact, our EBITDA margin on the nonbank business has expanded by 565 basis points in the quarter, basically. And all in all, as we were discussing, if you look at the last quarter, again, by way of reference, we are looking at more or less TRY 1 billion of impairment and about TRY 1 billion of monetary losses incurred by the holding company against the TRY 700 million, give or take, TRY 683 million losses that we incurred. So in a nutshell, we believe our nonbank businesses are in very good shape operationally. They have been improving performance quarter-on-quarter. On the banking side, as I said, 2024 was an exceptional year given the disinflation program in place. And hopefully, as this program continues and bears fruit and as the interest rates come down and those macro prudential measures are eased, obviously, we will be in the best position to continue delivering across all our business segments. On the next page, what we wanted to demonstrate to you was actually what we told you throughout the year on quarter-on-quarter basis, our nonbank business operating performance have been improving. And as you see, we have reached a 13% EBITDA margin in the last quarter of 2024. And on the right-hand side, you see the net losses incurred during the period in every quarter, and as you see, majority of that is coming from the monetary losses that are incurred by the holding company only. There are obviously monetary gains and losses across the group that's part of the business. The holding, the reason why we want to demonstrate this to you is obviously not necessarily part of the operations, which nevertheless impacts the bottom line. But still, we believe our operating performance has been satisfactory and which we believe puts us in a very good place to capitalize on any improvement in the environment in 2025 and forward. Now on the next page. One of the reasons why we have this conviction is how we have been able to improve our cash flow generation. There's a very big difference between the first half and the second half of the year, obviously, that's partly driven by our EBITDA performance and partly driven by our working capital performance. And yes, our bottom line is negative, and therefore, our return on equity has come down quite significantly from both banking and nonbanking businesses. But again, we feel we are in a very good position to build on in the coming periods. On the next page, you see we have been able to manage a very healthy balance sheet. Through the year, as you remember, there has been, as you see, some increase in our CapEx levels. We are now at 13.5%, just under our guidance on the midterm, which was 14%. And obviously, some major elements in there was the acquisition of Mannok with an EV over EUR 300 million. Çimsa funded this by her own resources and also Enerjisa Üretim's wind generation capacity expansion. As you remember, Üretim is expanding its capacity by another 1 gigawatt of wind and 750 megawatts of which is already funded about $1 billion that went into our financials in this year. And still, we run a very healthy balance sheet. And obviously, our cash position on Sabanci Holding level, which is TRY 12.4 billion. It's just under $250 million, unfortunately, weighs on and contributes to these monetary losses, but nevertheless gives us, together with our balance sheet, a very healthy room to continue investing behind our strategic growth. On the next page, our NAV has grown by about 16% in dollar basis. And as you see, again, the energy and climate piece now has become quite comparable to the banking and financial services. But this year, as you may have guessed, given the EBITDA performance, obviously, it's more half and half, meaning we have generated half of the EBITDA from nonbank businesses this year, which obviously is reflected on to our NAV composition. We still have an attractive discount. I mean, as of yesterday, it was 44%, although you see by the end of February, it was 45%. This, as you -- some of you may remember, went as low as under 20% back in 2022. But as we grow, especially our nonlisted businesses by value, obviously, it's a positive challenge for us to continue making sure that we close the gap and expand the gap. So with this, I'll turn the floor back to Kerem. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Orhun Bey. Let me begin with the bank. And just to remind, banking numbers presented on this page are based on BRSA financials as the banks are exempt from inflation accounting. Akbank's expertise in flexible balance sheet management, along with its adaptation ability to tight regulatory environment as well as sustained fee performance continued to underpin its profitability in 2024. Despite sector-wide headwinds, including high variable rates and macro prudential restrictions, Akbank has maintained and has remained committed to enhance its recurring revenues and ensure sustainable profitability. While identifying areas for sustainable growth, Akbank maintains prudence in risk management and cost control. Active customer base reached 14.5 million, up 72% over the last 3 years with 6.1 million net active customer growth. This growth has solidified the bank's market position and has set a strong foundation for long-term resilience. Moreover, Akbank's ongoing success in customer acquisitions contributed to an improvement in the fee to OpEx ratio, which improved by 28 percentage points since 2022 to 68%, achieving even a higher quarterly figure of 92% during the last quarter, thanks to all-time high fee chargeable customer base and strong cross-sells. The bank managed to expand its footprint in retail segment and gaining market share, especially in products where the bank can boost locking margin while expanding maturities. Akbank has dominance in high-yielding, lower maturity consumer loans while had strategically strengthened its position in mortgages by gaining 607 bps market share and build a strong position in longer maturity business in stock and bonds. All these are expected to be supportive for margin evolution going forward. While growing, Akbank continued to manage its risk in a prudent manner with AI-based and automated loan decision process. Additionally, with a total capital adequacy ratio of 17.8% and Tier 1 ratio of 15.1%, Akbank continues to maintain a solid capital structure, providing a buffer against market volatility and challenges, ensuring critical resources for sustainable and profitable growth. Its strong capital position, well-structured balance sheet to prosper in this inflationary environment, along with a low TL loan-to-deposit ratio of 82%, offers considerable potential for margin improvement, leading to an ROE above inflation. Moving on to our largest nonbank segment, energy. In generation business, the company achieved a 6% year-on-year increase in revenues in Q4 '24, mainly driven by higher generation volumes, which also led to an improvement in EBITDA performance compared to 4Q 2023. Despite the stronger EBITDA, lower bottom line was mainly driven by a higher base from fixed incentives and revaluation effects recorded in the previous year along with the impairments recorded last quarter. Decline in revenue and profitability for the full year is attributed to lower electricity prices as well as decline in trading activities in the current markets, which was less liquid and more stable compared to previous years. Please also note that combined EBITDA, which was reported at TRY 11 billion or $311 million in 2024 includes synthetic hedge in this presentation. Excluding hedge reversal impact, EBITDA was realized at $462 million in 2024. With regards to Enerjisa Enerji, operational earnings in distribution business increased by 6% year-on-year as of end of 2024, mostly driven by higher financial income and CapEx reimbursements. Operational earnings in customer solutions segment has significantly improved compared to last year, mostly driven by increase in solar projects. Yet, retail segment's operational earnings expectedly declined and dropped by 25% year-on-year due to lower sourcing costs in both regulated and liberalized segments. In 2024, investments stood at TRY 15.5 billion, in line with full year targets. As a result, underlying net income declined to TRY 4.2 billion on a year-on-year basis, which is in line with the guidance. The drop in annual profitability is attributable to lower earnings contribution from the retail activities and increase in financial expenses on higher debt and interest rates. On material technologies segment, in cement business, our ability to shift between export and local markets enabled us to keep sales volumes stable on a quarterly basis. However, below inflation pricing in domestic market continued to put pressure on overall cement revenues while pricing environment in export markets continued to be competitive. Sales volumes in tire reinforcement remained resilient amid increased competition from low-cost manufacturers, weak composite sales volume due to delay in demand recovery, segment's full year revenues declined 12% despite relatively better performance in Q4. EBITDA in the final quarter was lower year-on-year mainly due to one-off Mannok acquisition expenses impacting Çimsa's EBITDA and weak profitability in tire reinforcement and composites driven by ongoing price competition in the Far East market, inventory write-off due to slowdown and delayed recovery in composites. Discrepancy between inflation and devaluation also took a toll on EBITDA performance, net loss in Q4 driven by higher deferred tax expenses in cement business together with lower operational profitability in the tire reinforcement business and composites. Note that Mannok acquisition contributed approximately EUR 14 million to EBITDA with a 19% EBITDA margin and EUR 8 million to the net profit of Çimsa's financials. In Mobility Solutions, in terms of volumes, tire business reported higher consumer sales volume in replacement despite declining commercial volumes, both in replacement and OE. However, it maintained its strong market share, particularly in replacement and gained market share in OE markets that has contracted both in consumer and commercial segments. However, segment revenues declined by 5% year-on-year, impacted by price pressure and lower commercial and OE channel sales volumes compared to last year. While EBITDA remained flat, EBITDA margin improved both on a quarterly and annual basis, thanks to favorable raw material prices, lower energy and fuel costs and reduced fixed costs. The segment's net income was impacted by higher financial expenses due to increased borrowing costs. Financial Services segment's inflation-adjusted top line slightly dropped by 5% on a year-on-year basis, primarily driven by non-life business. The segment's EBITDA increased by 29% compared to previous year, driven by the significant EBITDA contribution from the life business. This contribution came mainly from the long-term credit life product and ROP. The strategic key of the non-life business is to maintain long-term sustainable growth without compromising capital adequacy ratio, which also resulted in lower premium generation in the short term due to maximizing profitability with a focus on high-margin segments. Financial Services segment's net income contribution turned positive in the last quarter on higher interest income in both life and non-life businesses. Moreover, in the context of inflation accounting, there is a reclassification on the impact of deferred income reserve accounts, which contributed positively to the life business's net income through technical profit from pension business, offsetting the impact of monetary losses. It's worth noting that our life company has strengthened its leadership position among private companies in terms of asset under management in private pensions and auto enrollment as well as gross written premiums in life and personal accidents. Moving on to digital. The segment's revenues dropped by 5% year-on-year in the last quarter, but despite market slowdown, sales increased 2% year-on-year on an annual basis, thanks to successful execution of the omnichannel strategy and strong focus on digitalization and consistent customer experience improvement in our technology retailer. Gross merchandise value declined by 10% year-on-year due to intense market competition and profitability-focused expansion strategy. In the fourth quarter, EBITDA recovered strongly compared to the same period last year and previous quarters. Margin expansion is also notable, thanks to ongoing cost optimization and effective inventory management. Despite significant improvement in margins, the segment's net income heavily impacted by high credit card expenses driven by high interest rates compared to last year. And finally, on retail, the segment achieved 3% year-on-year top line growth, while EBITDA increased strongly supported by ongoing cost reduction efforts. However, high financial expenses continue to weigh on profitability, resulting in a net loss. Let me leave the floor again to our CEO, Cenk Bey, for closing remarks. Cenk Bey?

Thank you, Kerem. Yes, we are coming to the end of our call today. Overall, 2024 was a challenging and transitionary year for us. I guess 2025 will be also a difficult year, especially in the first 6 months. This inflation program should continue consistently to attract foreign interest, which is a matter of particular importance to us in the context of potential IPO preparations. Yes, we are aware of the headwinds to growth in Türkiye, but there are some encouraging factors to consider as well. In the banking sector, credit growth seems to gradually expand as the net interest margins are improving. In the energy sector, electricity prices for high consumption households in Türkiye have been liberalized, very positive improvement. Specific to Sabanci, I believe our B2B-dominated portfolio is poised to maintain its competitive edge even in an economic slowdown, setting us apart from consumer businesses. In the U.S., our second solar project, Oriana, is scheduled to commence operations in the first half. The full year impact of Mannok will be reflected in our consolidated financials in 2025. Our strategic investments, particularly in the digital sector will continue. And finally, it is crucial to emphasize that long-term success is much more important than the short-term results for us. As a group, we are committed to our midterm guidance, including many critical details such as investment areas, expected returns and other key metrics. We are in the process of transforming the portfolio to a more balanced structure between bank and nonbank with a stronger focus on energy and digital businesses, and we are confident that we will continue to demonstrate our strong track record of execution, thereby increasing shareholder value. Yes. I would like to thank all Sabanci Group management teams for their efforts and our Board for their support that enables us to deliver in this dynamic environment. I will stop here and open the floor for Q&A. Thank you very much.

Thank you, everyone. Now we are in the Q&A session. The first question, thank you for the presentation. What is your forecast for spot electricity prices in 2025? Additionally, how sensitive is the generation EBITDA to changes in these electricity prices?

Thank you, [indiscernible]. Well, I think -- look, in a normal year in the Turkish market over the long term, the electricity prices should be between $70 to $80. At the highest back in 2022, they reached over $100, if I'm not mistaken, $120, $125. And at the lowest, we've seen them, as you may remember, less than $60. I think for 2025 at this point in time, it's not useful to assume anything other than what the long-term trend could be. That would be first. And given -- having said that, secondly, obviously, I'm sure you must be aware that there has not been any tariff hikes in the first quarter. And there's a possibility that the regulator may skip the second quarter also -- potential market balancing given the high season. So we'll see every year has its own, let's say, impact. Now the -- this obviously, the hard cap impacts the EBITDA performance of Üretim, but not only that. As you may remember, we talk about this from time to time the hydrology is an important factor, how a year will pass. The wind regime can become an important factor. And more obviously, again, the overall electricity demand is an important factor. So we'll see how the year progresses. As we discussed the last time as well, specifically [indiscernible] you were asking about EBITDA generation of Üretim. I think 2024 has shown us what the business could deliver in a year where there is hard cap suboptimal growth, if I may say so, given the GDP has grown less than 5%. And I think that could be given as a benchmark in that sense.

The second question, can you please provide more details on hedging effects on energy's generation company results? What is the EBITDA in 2023 without hedging? Cenk, we also already have 2023 EBITDA without hedging in the presentation. The rest will comment.

Look, I think -- it's Cenk Bey, thank you for the question. It's an ongoing process, obviously, because we -- on our side, given the fact that we talk about electricity prices in Türkiye measured in dollars, talked about in dollars, we always look at the performance of the business in dollars as well. So as a Turkish business, so there is always an ongoing hedging vis-a-vis FX that's always in place basically. I think if you look at the -- if I'm not mistaken, the appendices of our announcement, you're going to see the Üretim what it looks like on Turkish lira basis without hedging, and then you're going to see the dollar impact, and there is no hedging because there's no FX risk. I think on a year-on-year, you could see those changes taking place. As far as we are concerned, when we're communicating with you, we always refer you to the dollar-to-dollar, let's say, numbers. You may assume either you end up with adding back the impact of hedging or on a dollar-to-dollar change from one year to another. [Operator Instructions] Yes, one question. Does Çimsa export to the U.S. Do you expect an adverse impact from tariffs?

As we are in Mannok, you are very lucky, the General Manager of Çimsa, Umut, is here with us. So let me give the word to Umut.

Hi, everyone. Yes, Çimsa will export to U.S. in 2025 and 2026. We are -- as you know, we are exporting to -- clinker to United States. We have a grinding mill in Houston, and we are selling white cement from our Houston grinding mill. And also now we are making an investment in United States, Houston again. It's a gray cement grinding mill. So we will continue to make sales in Houston also. So Çimsa will not be affected by the tariffs because probably United States will apply these tariffs to Mexico and also Canada. So Türkiye will not be affected currently. If Türkiye or the other companies will be affected, the tariff probably will be imposed on the final product, cement. But we will be exporting clinker to this region. So we will not be affected.

Thank you. Thank you, Umut. So having an operation -- grinding operation in U.S. is quite advantageous for us.

All right. Next question is, could you please give a bit more detail on impairment losses in Q4?

Yes. Ali Bey, let me try to help with that. This is Orhun speaking. I think there has to be about TRY 1 billion of -- TRY 1.4 billion total, but TRY 1 billion coming from the nonbank piece. On the banking side, these are usually customary impairment that takes place throughout the year. So nothing specific. On the nonbank side, as I said, the biggest part comes from our cybersecurity business, Radiflow. I think this was close to $24 million, and that explains about 80%, 85% of the nonbank piece. You may remember, again, apologies for repetition, but this is an Israeli business that was acquired back in 2023. Obviously, when this Gaza incident has taken place at the end of -- 2022 we acquired, sorry, when the incident Gaza incident took place at the end of 2023, obviously, there were some interruptions in the business because all of our people were called to military in the first place. And throughout 2024, that has continued. So from a prudency point of view, we reflected that impact as impairment onto our financial statements in 2024. Now obviously, again, going forward, there is -- there could be upside to this business. But from a prudency point of view, we want to make sure what we experienced in 2024 has been reflected on to the financial statements. I hope this helps.

Thank you, Orhun Bey. Another question. Could you please give a color on where you stand with the data center investments on the digital?

Yes. Let me take that question. This is Cenk Alper. Two axes. On one axis, we continue to develop partnerships or consortiums with the potential customers, hyperscalers. We have significant progress over there. On the second dimension, we are actively completing our feasibilities on a couple of projects in U.S. and in Türkiye. When they are successful, hopefully, we will be able to share this with you. But as I have explained in London to you, this is a concrete solid development sector for us, having lots of synergies with our energy business. And we are working on it. So hopefully, in 2025, you will be hearing from us, concrete solid investment decisions.

Thank you, Cenk Bey. [Operator Instructions] Okay. It seems there are no further questions. Thank you for joining, and have a great day.

Thank you. Thank you very much for joining. Hope to see you either face-to-face in our one-to-one meetings or hope to hear you in the next call.

Yes. Thank you very much, and bye for now. Thank you.