HDFC Bank Limited (HDFCBANK) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It is a pleasure to welcome all of you to JPMorgan's Sixth Investor Summit. Building on the last 5 years of our Summit, we are delighted to have 75 companies that will be interacting with over 800 investors over the next 4 days. We are delighted to be able to present through the plenaries and the sessions, interactions for you with global thought leaders, with government policymakers and decision-makers who will be visiting us over the next 4 days, and with industry captains representing different aspects of the economy. We are delighted that we have our Chairman, Jamie Dimon, who will be joining us tomorrow each year and in each of the 5 summits. He's always made it a point to either fly in physically and spend time here. And when we went virtual last year, Jamie did join us from New York as he will tomorrow. The Indian economy over the last 18 months has had its share of challenges. And even as we meet various vaccination milestones and the economy is recovering, you will hear from various industry captains about the pace of recovery and about the new opportunities that present itself. Government speakers will speak about the initiatives that have been taken in building infrastructure and policy changes that help the economy as it provides. So with -- we are looking forward to a very interactive and very thoughtful set of sessions with all of you. And without much ado, I'd like to -- the best way to start the conference and the first session for us is HDFC Bank, which has represented the Indian economy and its growth over years. We are delighted to have Mr. Sashidhar Jagdishan, CEO of HDFC Bank, who has been a part of the organization since 1996 in various roles and completely familiar name for all of you who really needs no introduction. And we also have with Sashi, Mr. Srinivasan Vaidyanathan, CFO, who has been at HDFC Bank, along with Sashi. We -- Srini has spent 27 years at Citibank before he joined HDFC Bank in various geographies and various roles, and we're delighted to have the 2 of them to talk the first session at the conference. The first session will be moderated by Saurabh Kumar, Executive Director and analyst who leads our financial institution's research team. And over to you, Saurabh.

Thank you, Madhav. Thank you, Sashi and Srini, for doing this session with us. In my experience, HDFC Bank does set a very positive tone early on in any earnings session. So we, at JPMorgan are certainly grateful that both Sashi and Srini are opening the batting for us, so to speak. And hopefully, that will set up a right context. This session will be for 40 minutes. We'll do this in a Q&A fireside chat format. We'll see if we can open up the last 5, 6 minutes for any questions from the audience. You can please put in the questions in the pop-up window, and we'll be happy to take it. So Sashi and Srini, I think the first question, which we get and is there on everybody's mind is that, how is the demand shaping up? We've seen that disbursements have largely normalized for you in July. And there was an interview recently by Rahul saying that even collections are good, and actually, you could surprise yourself. And normally, October is traditionally a stronger period for the economy and HDFC Bank does come out with a lot of Festive Treats and offers across a range of businesses. So, yes, so how is the demand environment looking from where you sit?

Thank you first, Madhav, for the introductions and for inviting us to the conference. Thank you, Saurabh, for all these questions. Yes, Srini and I will take this -- we will sort of have a play on all your questions. So just starting about what's happening at the ground level as we speak, you're right, since July onwards, we have started to see the momentum pick up. Let me start on the retail side. When you look at the consumer demand, largely, and if you look at our credit card portfolio, all along over the last 18 months, it's been primarily on essentials and medical. But we started to see discretionary spends come back. So it's a change. We're also seeing very strangely, even travel, at least the domestic travel also picking up as well. Still not caught up on the peaks that we saw both in the fourth quarter of last year. But the trending seems to be all right. But what is very interesting is that the demand is not uniform. I mean, it is a K shaped kind of a recovery is what we are anticipating because if you look at some of the smaller products like the 2-wheelers and other smaller loans, we are not seeing too much of a demand, which sort of probably reflects the fact that the people, the lower middle-income and lower than that, I think, have got impacted by the pandemic severely. And they probably need a little more time to recoup their savings and probably it will take a little bit of time before they could start to spend as well. So the large part of the demand probably is going to be from the middle and the upper middle income, which is what we are now trying to see. July was better than June. August was better than July, September seems to be on track. I think the festive season has kicked off with the recent Ganesh festivals. We are anticipating that there will be a bit of a revenge spend as normally happens in -- during festival periods before it starts to moderate in the fourth quarter to more realistic demands. But surely, I think the only unknown piece in this entire thing is how the wave 3 plays out. The indications are that it's benign, and I hope it sort of -- we all hope and pray that that is how it is, because I think the global humanity, citizens of India, our customers, our people, the ground level really went through a lot of harrowing time at least during the second wave. I think we all want to keep this behind us and start afresh. That itself will be a wonderful booster for our morale and for the economy as well. So, all -- everything hinges upon how this plays out. I think the experts believe that by the fifth or 10th of October, we will -- the jury will be out in terms of whether wave 3 or people who've got inoculator in the past have actually -- it's a benign impact. And if that is the case, we should see a fair amount of buoyancy coming about into the side of the middle and from the top. The collection efficiency is also equally improving. I -- as I said, whilst we -- the demand resolutions are improving and it's inching closer to the fourth quarter, which was best quarter for us. It was much better than pre-pandemic levels. But still, in terms of the quality, the impact of that good collection resolution, having an impact of the asset quality will be -- you will be able to see that only by the fourth quarter or so, because you can go and collect 1 installment but to go and collect 2 and 3 installments, which people had -- were impacted during the May 1st -- April and month -- months of April and May. I think that the -- it will start to glide down by March. And March onwards, I think you should see normally, all things remain the same. MSME, the larger piece, which is the middle piece of the entire economy, I think, has seen a reasonable amount of stability, thanks to all the interventions by the regulator of the government over the last 18 months. We've also sort of been beneficiary as that part of the growth that we have seen over the last 18 months has been primarily arising out of the emergency credit line disbursals that we have done to our customers. We have been very careful in what we need to disburse. We've assessed the stress of all these customers. So, not all the customers, we have been able to disburse, probably 60% to 65% is what we have been aiming to disburse, which gives us a comfort that I think when the economy opens up and when time comes for their repayments it should be all right. As we speak, we are seeing the net cash flows in all our customer accounts, including the people who were either where we attacked this potentially possible stresses. I think we are seeing the cash flows much better than what we had seen on a long-term average, which gives us a lot of confidence that this book is going to be reasonably sanguine than what we had anticipated when we started off the pandemic. In terms of demand, I think we have said it before, Srini and I, one of the reasons why we've created the subject vertical is the fact that this is going to be one of the fastest-growing engines for the bank over the next 3 to 5 years. And it is playing out. I mean, do you see the kind of energy and the kind of opportunities that is there. I mean, leave aside the fact that we had a fair amount of disbursals on account of the government-guaranteed disbursals. But even aside that, I think the opportunity space is pretty large. As a banking system, we have not really penetrated much. It's just about one-sixth of the penetration that we have done. So the opportunity to grow this is extremely positive. And we are banking on this particular segment to really grow. Even if you look at some of the behavioral trends over the last 18 months, we have seen a fair amount of top India Inc. moving their -- moving on to a cash and carry basis to their supply chain. So, obviously, the MSMEs have been taking the weight of leverage, and we are probably having a good run on that. We are now the second largest MSME bank in the country with a great portfolio as well. We believe that the opportunity to grow at a much faster clip than the normal credit growth in the system. We have grown in the other segments, I think this is something that you will see from our stack over the next 3 to 5 years. Corporating, I think when pandemic started, I think there was a lot of uncertainty in the system. People got ghosts of the global financial crisis. And I think all the good companies were clamoring for liquidity because we were entering an unknown territory. Most of them wanted to patronize banks, which had the ability to offer limits -- much larger limits than what they had at much faster space and who were already well entrenched in their relationships. I think 25 years of our relationship -- great relationship that we had with the double A above corporates of the country, some of the central public sector entities in the country, I think, played very well for us. The -- we provided a fair amount of liquidity support or, I would say, liquidity buffer cushion for all these corporates in the first 6 months of the pandemic from June -- May onwards right up to the third quarter of last fiscal. And we also saw most of the companies doing extremely well due to the speed and contrary to all our expectations. I think they improved their efficiencies, gross value margins, improved significantly. The working capital cash -- working capital cycles compressed significantly. As I told you just recently, I think we saw a fair amount of them doing a cash and carry to the supply chain. It brought down the leverage. They raised a fair amount of equity flows. The -- all the metrics on debt equity ratios improved significantly. So, it is a good ramp for the corporate India over the last 18 months. So we still see a fair amount of liquidity in most of the corporates. However, though, the capacity utilization has come off. I mean, we used to see about 70%, 75%. In the recent past, it's come down anywhere between 58%, 60%, 65%, depending on the sector. Some of the sectors, especially in the cement, I think, have higher capacity utilization. So, I don't see too much of a hurry. So this is going to be a bit of a drag. The economic activity is going to move up, but the credit growth from corporate India is going to lag. So overall credit growth in the system may be optically tepid. But beneath that, I think you will see a reasonable amount of momentum picking up on the retail and the MSME side. However, there are 2 things which could sort of change even the demand for corporate India. This could be -- and these are some of the conversations we see from the interactions at the ground level. If the government's national investment plan were to play out, the $100 billion, I think there could be a lot of corporates who could be beneficiaries of the same, and they would want to sort of, at least put up some of the capacities to cater to that. The other unknown, which is something which people have started to talk about is the possible impact of the U.S. capital refurbishments, the infrastructure refurbishments. One would have expected a large part of that going to some of the Southeast Asian countries between China, if things were normal, but with the geopolitical issues probably India could be a beneficiary and some of the companies seem to be quite excited about that. It's still not concrete, but at least there's now discussions about these 2 as a potential upside to their putting up capital expenditure much faster than what we had anticipated.

Thank you, Sashi. That was very comprehensive. And hopefully, we get all the positives through. Now, coming to the payments business, and that is the flavor of the season with all the fintech listings or fact that gets underappreciated, in my view, is HDFC Bank is actually the leader in the payments business. You have a 45% merchant market share, almost 28% to 30% credit card market share. Now that the Reserve Bank ban is over, you can start issuing credit cards. How quickly do you intend to make up for the lost market share? I would quantify in terms of volumes, we know that the spend market share loss has been certainly lower. But by when do you intend to come back to your earlier levels? And the second is, we had a plan of reaching 20 million merchants in 2 years. Where are you on that? And if you can also touch upon your partnerships with some of the fintechs like Pine Labs and Paytm?

So, a lot of questions in there. So let me start with the issuance part of it. Yes, really happy that the restrictions have been removed. Fortunately, as a Company, we have never laid off anybody. The sales force is very intact, and they were actually helping in multiple other initiatives, which our CFO has been spearheading along with the business teams, such as activation of the government portfolio, trying to upsell, change the entire sales workforce to be able to do multi-tasking, such as upsell, other future asset products. And also, in the initial stages, give a healthy hand to the collections team because that was extremely important because of the kind of ballooning of -- in the flows because of the higher check bounce rates, et cetera. I think they've done remarkably well. The force is pretty buoyant. And what is also -- is why we're quite confident and buoyant about it is that, over the last 18 months the run rate of customer acquisitions has been feasibly healthy. We used to -- even before the pandemic, we mobilized about 6 million customer accounts every year. And that kind of a trend continues. And as we speak, I think we are on a clip to, hopefully, somewhere between 6 million to 8 million accounts. So we do have a huge amount of customer base where -- which we have acquired in the recent past and the penetration of that, even with from other card companies is not so much. So we have a reasonable opportunity. Of course, we have a finite bandwidth. But we are reasonably sanguine, and I think, Parag, did probably come out in public to say that we will come out with a plan. So we are very confident that the way the run rates are spanning out, we believe that we can cover up the kind of the backlog probably in about 3 to 4 quarters, for sure. In addition to that, I think over the last 18 months, we have been sort of engaging with multiple partners to tie up on the strategic levels, one of which you mentioned, there's a name, which is Paytm, where we are going to be issuing -- giving co brands. And like this, a lot of other players will emanate in due course. In addition to that, we are also setting up a new stack, a new stack for our banking products and cards and payment products is going to be one of the first few to -- first of the few modules which will come out rather quickly over the next -- we are in probably September. So by March, I think we should start to see some of the rollouts happening. So a combination of the kind of a differential experience that we are going to provide to our customers. The fact that we're going to be entering into multiple partnerships, thanks to our large and wonderful corporate relationships that we have had. And 3 is, in terms of our -- the fact that we have acquired a large number of customers in the last 15 months, which is still underpenetrated from a cost perspective, I think we should see -- whilst we are -- we have surely lost out some of the market share or the issuances in the recent past, but I think we will not really make up for that probably even go beyond what we had even with the pre-pandemic levels. So that's part one on the issuance side. The second part is on the acquiring. Yes, 2 to 20 is something that the very fact that Srini and I have called it out means that we are very serious about it. So the -- we have our plans in place. We know how to get there. The -- it's a combination of what we are trying to do with the rural and semi-urban and Tier 2 to Tier 4 cities. In addition to that, the partnerships are also likely to help and accelerate some of the acquisitions as well. So, this is surely a strategy that's going to play out. It's going to be a reality. The objective of this is not just market share from a payments perspective, but how we can complement from a banking perspective because what we are salivating is the banking relationship with all these merchants, et cetera, and create an ecosystem part of that. So, this is a space that we are quite excited about, but probably 18 months from now, we'll have much -- many more to sort of a lot of things to share with you to see how this is progressing well. But this is on top of our priorities. In terms of partnerships, we have mentioned this in the past. This is one of our key strategies as well. See, the reality is that traditionally, we have relied on branches as a customer acquisition channel. In addition to that over the period of time, our websites, our digital properties have also sort of been refined and have attracted a lot of footfalls by themselves. So these are things which we would talk about it separately in terms of how we are owning and how we are trying to utilize and capture some of the potential -- the opportunities out of the digital properties as well. But still, when you compare with the kind of the universe that -- which has burgeon over the last 5, 6 years, it's staggering -- the opportunities are staggering. Now, the fact that, as you also alluded, being one of the largest payment banks in the country, we have great relationship with all these partners. And you and I know that a lot of these, whether it's e-commerce platforms, the some of the fintechs, payment fintechs or any other fintechs, they have established a niche in this part of the world. It's probably because of great customer experience, ease of doing bummers, ease of doing payments, et cetera. And there are multiple other things which sort of attracts them onto their platforms. First say, these things, whilst there is a huge amount of footfalls, let's take payments fintechs. The value of that will happen only they monetize kind of data that happens. Now, either they can flirt with a lot of small institutions to be able to monetize that, but that's not going to justify the kind of valuations that people are expecting out of that, all the kind of data that they have. I think it is banks, which are very large in scale and which can provide these kind of scale to these kind of institutions, I think, are going to be best fit for such partnerships. And we are well positioned for these kind of partnerships. We are also changing our entire skin and the underlying technology architecture. We will talk about it, what we're trying to do over the next 18 months. It is quite exciting. And it is something which will change the game for ourselves as well. So, taking all this into account, we are ready to partner providing banking as a service to many of these partners. Obviously, we are -- we would want to have the regulatory consent or whatever we do on that particular front. So, we are not starting banking as a service in this juncture, because we want to get clarity from the regulator as to what their thought process is. But having said that, I think tying up with them for different kinds of cards on the issuance side, whether it is the consumer cards, whether it's merchant cards, whether it's the corporate cards is something that people are -- there is a mutual benefit to both of us, and that is what we are trying out at this juncture. But we are enabling our platform to be able to do something even more, provided we have green signals and clarity and consent from the regulator.

Thank you, Sashi. I think I just want to pick up on one of the topics you mentioned on the technology transformation. So, we know that HDFC has a project going on called Project Future Ready, and you've announced as part of that project, a digital factory and an enterprise factory being created in the Bank. So, could you just explain as to what that means? And there's a related question on that is, when we see Indian banks, they spend, let's say, 3%, 3.5% of the revenues on technology. Global banks, you've seen spend about 10% to 12% of their budget on technology. So, in some sense, there is a concern that as you do some catch-up spending on technology, can it near-term alter the cost/income ratio outlook before eventually drawing that back down? Or how should investors think about it?

Sure. See, all along, I think #1 is, we're pretty proud of the technology journey thus far. I don't think we need to be apologetic about it at all these while. I think the kind of open, scalable architecture that we adopted when we were born in 1995 is something that has helped us to get to this level as we speak. Now, obviously, we are human. We are not perfect. There were areas that we could have concentrated better. We are still in a real world. Outages happen, not just for us but for any global players in the banking, but even outside of banking. You see larger and very reputable, say, exchanges and even cloud service providers also have an outage. And this is normal. I mean, it can happen to anyone. And if you really look at now that the world has -- there's a lot of public data available on outages. We are neither the best, nor the worst. We are somewhere in between. So the issue is not about that. The issue is about the recovery phase once you have outage. I think some amount of thought process. It's not about investments, just investment. It's also about how we can focus and have all the ecosystems work in tandem to be able to bring all the systems up in one go rather than sequentially. I think that's an area that we could have focused or we did not focus much, and that's exactly what we have done now. I wouldn't say that it's 100% complete. I would say that over the last 8 months, I think we've done reasonably well to cover 90% of what should have been done in the past. Now, the second aspect of it is that, the kind of wrap that we got from the regulator in December for the kind of outages, which is probably the first and the most stringent -- globally, I don't think any other institution that have figured that out, would have experienced a kind of a wrap. I must say that grateful that it happened because it opened our eyes, opened our brains. All along, we realized that we were comparing ourselves with what's happening in the Indian global banking industry. But this has helped us to think about what's happening outside of the global industry. The big tech players, you and I patronize most of them frequently now as a part and parcel of our day-to-day life. It's -- the engineering is outstanding. I mean, you and I probably have not even seen any outages on what we do on searches, what we do on watching any entertainment or doing commerce. These are -- obviously, there's something that they have done, which is unpaddled. So the moment you start to peel onions and understand how -- what is their architecture. You get an idea as to saying that, look, okay, 2 things. Number one, the world of disruption is a reality. Two, if you want to avert or sort of, at least minimize the destruction, then you need to be like that. So, which is the first thing that we did. So we had to reboot our technology architecture, our strategy to be able to move away from the tightly coupled technology architecture to more micro services space. So the journey has already started. I mean, we are following the core of our existing infrastructure. We are trying to have new developments on the cloud, more micro services space, et cetera. Now, traditionally, we would have asked some of the large IT companies to help us out in terms of building all these things and then maintaining them and then sustaining them as well. But we realized that, look, if you really need to be nimble for -- if you need to be agile, if you need to be -- you to respond to these situations rather quickly, then you need to own the destinies of this. So which is the reason why we created 2 factories. An enterprise factory and digital factory. The enterprise factory's objective is to ensure take all existing systems and then convert them into micro services architecture, put them into containers and have an orchestration to that, the aspects of scalability and redundancy or resiliency is all taken care, where we will not have a pain arising out of any outages going forward. The collateral benefit of that, when you start to move to micro services then, even in a monolithic architecture, the journeys are -- the roads are all fixed. The journey -- you have to cover a certain path -- a fixed path. The moment you move to micro services, the object -- you can go to the shortest possible path. So these are some of the advantages of the collateral benefits of moving into a services-based architecture. So we believe that experience will also change even for our existing set of customers at the moment you move on to the services-based architecture on the cloud. The new developments we are saying that we need to have -- obviously, when you look at -- when you think of -- I'm not a techie, but if you're really -- for a layman, if you look at it, you have the core, the hardware, you have the operating system, you have the database layer, you have the web application and then you have the engagement layer, these are the various levels that you will have. Of course, these have to be plumbed and linked right from the start of the journey to right to the end in terms of the compute, et cetera. But what we now see is new architecture, new stack where most of this is a fuse architecture. So the dropouts are all minimized and you have a straight highway. So, obviously, the journey is going to be. The journeys of experience is going to be far, far better. So we are patronizing a lot of new partners who are large fintechs who have the capability and the ability to understand both the new age architecture and also banking and our needs to be helping us in this journey. But we don't want to make the same mistakes. We want to co-create with that. So we have a digital factory to co-create all these developments in the cloud. So this is something that these are 2 muscles that we have built or we are building, and this is something that will take us over the next 18 months. And we believe that at the end of the journey, it's a kind of a lot of milestones in between. But hopefully, 18 months to 24 months from today, when we look back, I think we'll all be -- at least the people here, at least I and Srini and a lot of others would be happy to see the outcome of that journey.

Okay.

So that is -- is there any other question which I missed out? I'm sorry.

No, I think that's very comprehensive, Sashi. So we have just -- we have about 10 minutes left. But I do see a few questions pop up on the screen, let me just take those. So the first is on the account aggregate of framework and now that there is a link established within India and Singapore. So 2 parts to that. One is, do you believe account aggregator for a bank like you is a net positive as a financial -- as an information provider into the system? Or how would you think about this impacting the banking landscape on a longer-term basis? And the second related point is, we have all these fintech companies now scaling up via the buy now pay later market. Do you -- I mean, HDFC Bank, obviously, has a play in that. But do you think at some point, it can start challenging the credit card value proposition at all? Or do you think these are 2 separate markets?

So great questions. The first aspect of it is the account aggregator, the [ O'Kane Rails ], and we are already integrated to that. See, the thing is, one of the biggest lessons over the last many years is that, you need to be aware of what's happening in the world. There are certain forces which is beyond our control. Now, it's important that any organization is not sort of does not bury its head in the sands. You need to react, and you need to be up there, trying to see how an opportunity arise -- how we can grab the opportunity. Shortly, I mean, an account aggregator is what, you can get better information on the fly of the customers, and you have to share your information. And this is -- what it says is that, whatever information you have had over a period of time is not necessarily proprietary anymore. This is something that has to be shared. Let's face it. In the physical world, also, you did have a lot of acquisitions where I were picking up from the open market and I rely on account statements of other banks as well. Now this is happening digitally. Now, here, it's -- the confidence level in your mind, if you are a confident player, if you have the technology, and if you have the basic principles of distribution, hunger, capital and the fact that there is an opportunity out here rather than -- the moment you start to look at it negatively, it will -- you will not be really grabbing that opportunity. The moment you start to think the glass is half full out here, I think it will be easy. So we are looking at it, and we believe that it's up to us for us to make this net positive from this aspect, and that is why we are one of the few banks which are already ready to ride both on the AA rails and the O'Kane rails. And yes, these things will happen. This will be a reality. And if institutions do not react and adapt itself to changing world, then we will be history. So trust me, this is an opportunity -- we see it as an opportunity. Two, on BNPL rightfully said, I mean, this is not something that is unknown to us. I think we are, by far, the market leaders on the BNPL space, but there is a space which is even -- in this segment, which is even smaller, which is going to be smaller ticket size, smaller tenors and not necessarily subprime. The people confuse the BNPL segment to be subprime, which is not the case. All along, in many and probably your grandparent or my parents would -- or my grandparents would have gone through this. And it's probably the case in multiple geographies as well that all household purchases in the past, people used to pick up a phone or go to the shop and say, please can you come and drop it in our house. So this used to happen and he used to collect the payments at the end of the month. This is a kind of a universal -- almost universal practice. So, people are good. It's convenience. So, effectively, they're happy to pay some of the charges as well. I'm sure the shopkeeper would have embedded a little bit of credit as well because he's purchasing more the groceries upfront. So this is something that the human behavior, at least a large part of the Indian behavior diaspora are aware. And the BNPL is there to identify that kind of a niche segment, for niche purposes to be able to do that. Obviously, the ticket size is small, and if the tenors are small, you need to have virtually zero friction in the entity. So the identification, the fact that the charges have to be feasible as well. So this is not something that will be a great margin product. It will be a low margin product, high-volume product, but this is a great segue to then migrate to the other aspects of our product hierarchy. Now, there are lot of debates going on, even within the organization that why can't we do it with the card. So what we are trying to do is, we are trying to keep all form factors with. So you'll be surprised to say that you will have a card for the segment, you'll have a frictionless, a virtual card for this. You can do it through UPI, you can do it through multiple form factors. So these are some of the innovations and some of the products that we're keeping it ready. We are, in fact, doing a fair amount of experiments on this aspect. And you'll be surprised at the moment you sort of unveil what we're trying to do on this particular aspect. So this is an area that we're quite excited, and we are going to be quite ahead of the curve. And in fact, happy to partner with anybody on this particular segment as well.

Sashi, it does seem that at this point, BNPL market is separate from credit card market.

Yes.

And hopefully, you will be able to establish dominance in both. You've already said that BNPL, you are a market leader. I look forward to Srini some additional disclosures during the quarter on what the BNPL book is. I think people will be very interested in that. I think we are largely out of time here. Madhav, I just hand it over to you. Thank you, Sashi and Srini, for taking the time.

Thank you, Saurabh. Thank you.

Madhav?

Am I audible? Yes.

Yes. Yes, Madhav. Yes.

Thank you, Sashi and Srini. This was a -- thank you for kicking off the conference for us and a very insightful session. It was very interesting to hear how you took on the challenge that came as a result of the wrap from the regulators, convert -- completely re-architected your IT infrastructure. It was wonderful to hear that and how it makes you now digitally ready to harness multiple opportunities that arise from moving into a micro services platform from the traditional architecture. What you talked about, MSME, again, was -- and creating a separate vertical, growing that and that being an area of growth for the next 3 to 5 years. Again, it was wonderful to hear. That and building that SME ecosystem, even as rural and semi-urban, Tier 2 to Tier 4 cities and the acquiring piece that you talked about, how they integrate, again, make it very, very interesting. HDFC Bank always has a very significant role to play in driving the overall growth and leading the digital transformation of the country's financial system, and it was wonderful to hear your thoughts. Thank you very much for your time, Sashi and Srini.

Thank you, Madhav. Thank you, JPMorgan. Thank you.