Hindware Home Innovation Limited (HINDWAREAP) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q3 FY '25 Earnings Conference Call of Hindware Home Innovation Limited, hosted by Arihant Capital Markets Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. [ Ronak Osthwal ] from Arihant Capital Markets. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Good evening, and welcome everyone. On behalf of Arihant Capital Markets Limited, we invite you to Hindware Home Innovation Limited Quarter 3 and 9 Months FY '25 Earnings Conference Call. From the management side, we have Nirupam Sahay, CEO of Bath Business; Mr. Naveen Malik, CEO and CFO of Home -- Hindware Home Innovation Limited; and Mr. Sandeep Sikka, the Group CFO. Kindly note that some of remarks or observations made during today's call might be forward-looking such as financial projection or statements regarding the company's plans, objectives, expectations or intentions. The company does not have any obligation to revise these forward-looking statements to reflect any future events or developments. For a comprehensive disclaimer, please refer to Slide #2 of the results presentation. With that, I would now like to hand over the call to the management for their opening remarks, post which we will open for question and answer session. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Malik.

Good evening, everyone. Naveen Malik this side. Welcome to Hindware Home Innovation Limited Quarter 3 and 9 Months FY '25 Earnings Call. I will start with a brief summary of our performance for the first 9 months of FY '25. In quarter 3 FY '25, the consolidated revenue was INR 594 crores with an EBITDA of INR 37 crores, reflecting a continued subdued demand environment. For the 9 months of FY '25, revenue reached INR 1,824 crores, and EBITDA was INR 132 crores. Our CEO Pipe, Mr. Rajesh Pajnoo is slightly under the weather with seasonal viral, hence he is unable to join us on the call. We will be sharing update on the pipe business. Despite challenging market conditions and volatile raw material prices impacting revenue growth, TRUFLO delivered strong volume growth in quarter 3 FY '25, we reported pipe revenue of INR 189 crores and EBITDA of INR 13 crores. For the 9 months of FY '25, revenue was INR 539 crores and EBITDA was INR 37 crores. We achieved an 11% year-over-year volume increase in 9 months FY '25, demonstrating the effectiveness of our strategies and strength of our operations. CPVC remains a key contributor, representing over 38% of revenue during 9 months FY '25, highlighting the continued strength of this product line. Building on these operations strengths, we continue to focus on product innovation. This quarter, we launched four core products for underground drainage and we have plans to introduce double-wall corrugated pipe and fire sprinkler systems in the coming months. We continue to actively engage with the plumbing committee through training programs, feedback sessions and industry events. To further support our growth initiatives, our [indiscernible] is nearing completion and is set to commence production in the coming months. This will significantly expand our capacity and help us to efficiently cater customers in Northern India. To further strengthen our market position, we are pursuing three strategic strategies. Expanding our distribution network and manufacturing capability to reach new customers and deeper penetration in existing markets, offering a comprehensive range of solutions to meet diverse customer needs, and optimizing margin to capture greater market share. We are confident these initiatives will drive continued success for TRUFLO. I'm delighted to introduce Mr. Nirupam Sahay, who recently joined us as CEO of the Bathware business. Nirupam will now take us through the business update.

Thank you, Naveen, and good evening, everyone. As Naveen mentioned, our Q3 performance was impacted by challenging market conditions, including sluggish demand and rising input costs within the bathware industry. Consequently, sales remained subdued. The Bathware business delivered INR 338 crores revenue and INR 35 crores in EBITDA for Q3 FY '25. For the 9 months of FY '25, revenue was at INR 1,024 crores and EBITDA was INR 110 crores. We understand our Q3 results are not where we want them to be, and we have undertaken a comprehensive internal review and detailed analysis. Hindware's leading brand position, driven by high brand awareness and recall provides a strong foundation for future growth. We are committed to capitalizing on the significant potential in addition to strengthening our distribution and product portfolio to drive accelerated growth. Since joining in mid-January 2025, I've been analyzing the business and identifying key strategic areas. Our primary focus is on refining our go-to-market strategy and strengthening our product portfolio. Furthermore, we are undertaking a comprehensive cost review to identify opportunity for margin expansion through driving operational efficiencies and a zero-based budgeting approach. We anticipate a 2- to 3-quarter time frame to implement these initiatives and are confident we will begin to see the positive impact on our performance within this time frame. To ensure we are effectively executing our strategy, we are conducting regular data-driven reviews of our short- and medium-term objectives and benchmarking them against evolving market dynamics. Moving to our Consumer Appliances business. We reported a revenue of INR 67 crores for the quarter with an EBITDA loss of INR 10 crores. For the 9 months of FY '25, revenue stood at INR 260 crores with an EBITDA loss of INR 14 crores. In our Consumer Appliances business, we are taking decisive steps to improve profitability. This involves a comprehensive product portfolio review, analyzing performance and competitive positioning. We will continue to invest in high potential areas like kitchen appliances, where we see strong growth opportunities while strategically streamlining SKUs and categories. Concurrently, we are also reviewing operational costs to identify savings opportunities and improve efficiency. This targeted approach will help us in optimizing resource allocation and driving profitability. With that, we open it up for Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Viraj Mehta from Enigma.

Sir, my first question is regarding our Bathware division. This -- we used to be bellwether in this division. But inch by inch, quarter by quarter, year by year, we have consistently lost market leadership, we have lost market share, and now we have lost even profitability. Our competitors, both listed and unlisted, are still doing double-digit, mid-double-digit 12%, 13% margins, and we have come down to 5%, 6% margin in this division. And we have consistently lost revenue. Can you please tell us as minority investors what concrete steps are you taking? And why has this happened? And what are we trying to do to reverse this from basically the #1 player in the country, we are now like nowhere to be seen. Why has that happened?

Yes. Thank you so much for the question. I think like I mentioned, I have come in recently mid-January into the business. I have done a thorough analysis of the business and we are taking steps along a few key parameters to improve the health of the business. The first is the go-to-market. We have a combination of distributors, dealers and brand stores. Those are our channels. We also have e-commerce and we have institutional sales. So those are our primary channels for growth going forward. On the institutional sales, we have strengthened the team over the last 6 months, and we're already starting to see the results of that. The contribution of institutional sales in the last quarter has gone up to 22% versus 19% in the previous quarter. We're starting to see the results of strengthening the institutional sales team and a strong focus on that already. Similarly, in e-commerce, we're driving growth in both the Consumer Appliances business as well as wherever there are opportunities in the Bathware business as well. So e-commerce will also be a case growth driver going forward, and we are focusing on that. On our distributor and dealer network, we are working on strengthening it. We're looking at geographies where we have relative to what we call high potential low market share area. So we're looking at strengthening the distributor and dealer network in these high potential low market share area. Now with existing distributors and dealers, making sure that we strengthen the relationship with them with sustained loyalty programs and activity to keep them engaged with the company. And on the brand stores, we are refreshing the older brand store, and there's a brand-new redesign of all new brand stores that we are putting in to make it even more attractive for our customers. So the go-to-market across all of these channels is going to be one key factor in driving future growth. The second is on the product portfolio. We are developing a product portfolio road map not only for the next quarter or two, but basically for the next 18 months. So we'll have a robust product portfolio road map, which covers all price segments both in Sanitaryware and in Faucets, also focusing on the premium segment where there's relatively higher growth in the market. We have a very strong R&D team, which is based out of our Bahadurgarh plant. So the R&D team is working on a lot of very interesting things, both in Consumer Appliances and in Bathware. We have a robust product portfolio already starting from quarter 4 and going forward for the next 1 year and beyond. The third is in terms of deepening our engagement with key influencers. So we've had a plumber program for some time. We've taken steps already in terms of strengthening the plumber engagement, again using automation. So we have a plumber app, which again we strengthened to make sure that we're able to drive loyalty of plumbers. And our architect and interior designer program also we will be focusing on in a big way in the coming quarters to make sure that our engagement with these key influencers keeps increasing as well. In terms of communication to consumers, which is obviously to end consumers, we'll use a combination of above the line and below the line. There will be work on the brand that you see in the course of the year, but also leveraging digital in a big way. So that's something that we've done over the last few quarters. We will strengthen our digital activities to make sure that we are reaching out to consumers, talking about the benefits of our products and the differentiation versus competition. So these are, I think, some of the key parameters in terms of driving growth. At the same time, obviously, we're also focused on improving profitability. So while the EBITDA margin is still double digits, we believe that, obviously, we can increase that substantially. So we are working on multiple levers there. One is improving the gross margin. For that, what we'll be doing is we are pruning all the low-margin products that we have in the portfolio, low volume, low-margin products will be pruned. All the new products that we launch will be launched at a higher gross margin than existing products to ensure that the overall gross margin mix improves over a period of time. I will -- also, I mentioned zero-based budgeting. So we're looking at cost with a completely fresh eye to make sure that whether it's in operations in our plants for driving productivity and efficiency in the plant, but also looking at every single cost lever, whether it is employee cost, whether it is advertising and promotion costs, et cetera, all of them, we're using a zero-based approach versus an incremental versus last year approach. I think through a combination of these factors, we are very confident that over the next 2 to 3 quarters, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we will see a bounce back in terms of growth, both in Bathware and Consumer Appliances, and definitely an improvement in profitability as well.

Right, sir. Sir, my second question is, if you look at the industry as a whole, where do you think in Bathware segment, your market share will be today?

Yes. So we don't really share the market share figures. What I can say is that we have a relatively high market share in the mid-premium range of faucets. We have a healthy market share again in the entry level and mid-premium bathware. I think a strong focus going forward is increasing our market share in premium. As I mentioned earlier, that is a category which is growing relatively faster than mid-premium and entry. So we'll have a strong focus on driving smart intelligent technology-driven products, innovative products, which will help us to win in the premium segment in both faucets as well as in bathware.

And sir, in that premium segment, I had just one question. A, don't you think it's a slightly cluttered market in terms of the number of new entrants, which have entered in the premium segment, both in faucets as well as bathware? And obviously, the dominance of the largest player still remains. And our brand -- second thing is our brand is predominantly mid-market or slightly above mid-market brand. So what is the acceptability you think we will have in the premium segment where we are trying to focus?

So we have a brand called Queo, which is in the premium segment. So ensuring that we have a strong product portfolio in Queo across bathware -- across both sanitaryware and faucets. So that's something that we are strongly focused on and also putting some marketing muscle behind Queo. Now we believe that with the kind of distributor and dealer network that we already have, so that's our strength. Our distribution has been our strength. I talked about strengthening it further. But really, we have a ready-made platform. And obviously, not all distributors and dealers will be able to sell premium products, but a large number of them will. So we've done a selection of the distributors and dealers that we will use to leverage and, of course, the brand stores that we have. We have about 650 brand stores now, 70 for tiles and about 580 for bathware. So we'll be leveraging these brand stores, particularly for the premium products. So I think primarily using digital, e-commerce, brand stores and then the distributor and dealer network. So that's, I think, where having a robust product portfolio and leveraging these channels, particularly will give us good growth in the premium segment. And I think the mid-premium segment is also something that is critical because that's become a very, very large part of the market. So I think in that, we have Hindware Italian Collection. Now that, again, is something that has given us good dividends over the last few quarters. And we are confident that in Hindware Italian Collection for the mid-premium and Queo in premium, we will have a robust product portfolio, we will have the distribution muscle and relatively new channels that we will use to basically push them. So we're fairly confident that basically in the premium segment, yes, there's competition, but with a robust product portfolio and a very focused channel approach, we have a right to win there as well.

Sir, last is a bookkeeping question. You mentioned that our significant focus will be on digital and will be on e-commerce channel. Today, of our total sales of bathware, what percentage of sales comes through these channels?

So it would roughly be between 10% and 13% across quarters. Over a period of time, each...

Total or each?

No. I'm talking right now about total. If I look across both Consumer Appliances and Bathware, there is more sale of the Consumer Appliance products happening through e-commerce. Sanitaryware, there's not too much sales either for us or for the industry in general. But Faucets, there's an opportunity to increase. So the focus within Bathware will be on faucets. and in Consumer Appliances on kitchen appliances. So those are the categories that we'll focus on.

Just a last suggestion, sir. We have talked a lot about e-commerce as well as digital, but our total sales coming out of those channels is predominantly very less and majorly faucets, as you said. But our major bread and butter bathware still -- I leave with not too much clarity in terms of what are we explicitly doing for our largest bread and butter and our market leadership product to grow. Thank you so much.

The next question is from the line of Utkarsh from Bank of Baroda Capital Markets.

Sir, I have a few questions. First, on the Consumer Products segment. So we have made an EBITDA loss of INR 3 crores in December quarter. And even after operating from more than a decade period in this segment, we have also taken a lot of product and cost rationalization steps in the past few quarters, but still that is not yielding result. So my question to you is that why we are not thinking of exiting this segment and focus entirely on improving the core bathware business, which is a bread-and-butter business for us?

Yes. So I think what we have done, as you rightly pointed out, is taken a call, and I talked in my opening remarks about the portfolio that we'll be going ahead with. The strong focus going ahead in Consumer Appliances is going to be on kitchen appliances, specifically chimneys, hobs and cooktops. Now in these products, particularly chimneys, we have a good market share. We are in the top players in that space. So we've developed a strong product portfolio. We've got a strong channel, which is selling it. So we believe that by focusing on kitchen appliances, we have a path forward for both revenue and profit growth in the future. The second category that we'll focus on is basically on the heating products, primarily water heaters, and to some extent, room heaters. So those are the two categories that we plan to focus on. We will get out of fans, for example, as you know, we were in fans, but we will get out of fans completely. So our focus of the entire sales team in Consumer Appliances will then only be on kitchen appliances and on heating appliances, and that's it. I think with that strong focused approach, building a sustainable business from the point of view of growth in top line and improving profitability quarter-on-quarter. I would treat the last quarter a little bit of an aberration. We had some regions where we had a loss of the sales team. Those sales teams are now back in place, and we can already start seeing momentum in this quarter itself. So I think with a strong focus on a few categories, building a strong, robust product portfolio, including some smart intelligent products in that space, and I think with the sales team back and forth and a strong focus, I believe that we are on the right path. And the idea is not to expand into new categories for some time until we stabilize and grow these categories that I just talked about.

Like just wanted a sense from you like the share of loss from our JV, which is the water heater business, has been around INR 4 crores to INR 5 crores per quarter for the past four quarters. So can you please throw some light? When do you expect this JV to at least breakeven? And second, on the Consumer Product segment, do you see mid-single-digit or high single-digit kind of an EBITDA margin in near future? And if yes, by when we can expect that number to be delivered?

So coming to your question on water heaters, the major chunk of losses, which are right now coming in the joint venture is also on account of higher depreciation and interest with the commercial production start of the factory. We are working on various options, including selling products to other OEMs from the water heater and also evaluating other options what all we can utilize the factory for, so that the full loading of the factory comes into the play as soon as possible. Since the plant has been set up, this is a plant with the European machinery and all those things because Groupe Atlantic is our partner. So we are internally evaluating and also talking to various other OEMs to load the plant fully. So once the loading pattern comes into the play, we feel the losses should come down on the JV -- on the joint venture.

On the second part of your question, so I think we have a very clear path to getting back to good growth on top line, and improvement in profitability quarter-on-quarter. Difficult to give an exact time frame when we expect to get back to solid profitability, but I think very, very confident in the plans that we have already that we'll see improvement pretty much quarter-on-quarter as we go along.

Sir, my second question is on your Bathware segment. Can you please provide some comment like how has been the demand scenario in the current March quarter period for Bathware segment? And have we taken any pricing action for Sanitaryware and Faucets portfolio in December quarter? And do we plan to take any price hike in the current March quarter as well?

Yes. So the market in this quarter continues to remain subdued. Having said that, basically, we are focusing on making sure that we improve on the per month and per quarter run rate that we have in terms of top line. We took a price increase of 4.7% on MRP in Faucets in quarter 3. In quarter 4 at this point of time, given the subdued demand environment, we are not planning any major price increases in Sanitaryware or Faucets.

Okay. So we have not taken any price increase for Sanitaryware, is it correct in December quarter?

Just on Faucets, 4.7% on MRP.

And sir, what has been the revenue growth for Sanitaryware and Faucets in December quarter as well as 9 months of FY '25?

Yes. So in Bathware, we had a degrowth in the quarter of 15.9%. And in the 9 months, we have a degrowth of 11.7%.

Sir, I'm talking specifically for Sanitaryware and Faucets, if you can provide the data.

Yes, yes. So this is Sanitaryware and Faucets that I'm talking about. So, do you want it separately for Sanitaryware and Faucets?

Yes.

I think we can take this question back while we do this. Maybe we can move on to next question.

Okay sir, like what would be the gross margin for our Bathware division, say, in December quarter versus previous December quarter?

So the EBITDA percentage was 10.2% in the quarter, and for the 9 months, it's at 10.8%.

Okay. Sir, Lastly, sir, what would be the expected CapEx for FY '25 and '26 for us?

We are actually in the process of finalizing the plans on CapEx. So I don't have that figure straight away. Like I mentioned, we are basically looking at everything from a zero-based point of view. So I think within a month or so, we will have that final CapEx plan in place. I can't give a figure right now.

The next question is from the line of Naysar Parikh from Native Capital.

Again on the Bathware business, right, can you just give us some comment. The disclosure is obviously very less when you see versus competition. So can you just give some color in terms of retail versus projects, what's doing good versus bad? And also either by region or something like that? Just give us some flavors so that we get a sense of what is the reason for the underperformance if you can, please?

Yes. I think as I mentioned earlier, we focused on institutional and strengthening that team. And we've seen growth in the institutional sales over the last couple of quarters. So we have a strong single-digit growth in institutional sales, which has happened. Where we faced some headwinds and seen a little bit of degrowth is basically in the general trade. Now in response to the first question that came, what we are doing is really working on going back to the distributor and dealer network that we have already, strengthening our relationship with them, building strong loyalty programs with them and looking at opportunities in high potential low market share areas where we don't have strong presence.

What do you think is the reason why we don't have -- like are they saying that we make a higher commission? Is it quality of the product? Like what is your diagnosis? Where are we falling short versus competition? Why are dealers not pushing our product? It's not like things are not getting sold. And if you grew in institutional retail, we are down 20%, right?

I think there are a couple of ways to look at it. One is in terms of geographies. We are very strong in North and have a relatively high market share in the North. We are strong in large parts of the South where, again, we have a relatively high market share. Central and East would come next. West is one region where we've, over a period of time, not built a very strong distribution network. Now clearly, there's an opportunity because the West is a large market for Sanitaryware and for Faucets. So we will be focusing our efforts on strengthening the West as a full region. And then going micro in the other regions where, like I said, we look at high potential low market share and then make targeted efforts to really grow our market share there. So getting into far more granular detail at a region and the district and town level to make sure that we strengthen distribution where we need to.

So what was the growth in the North market for this quarter, given that is the strongest market for us?

So we don't share region-wise data.

Okay. But sorry, I think it's still -- and the first participant also asked the same question, but I don't think it answers the question. The question is that what is it that -- where competition is doing better versus us? Is it product? Is it incentive? Is it pricing? What is it that we are going to target? Do we need to change our pricing? What is the problem? Is it the brand that is impacted? Is it anything? So you're talking just the term of high potential low market share, but in that, what are we going to do, right, is the question?

So we talked about several things. I mentioned not only go-to-market, but product portfolio. So looking at the product portfolio across price segments, both in Sanitaryware and in Faucets, making sure that we have a robust product portfolio, not only for the coming 3 months, 6 months, we're basically having a product portfolio road map for the long term. So absolutely, part of winning in the market in Bathware is going to be having the right product portfolio across price segments. There are certain price segments where we have a good portfolio, and we have a relatively higher market share. There are certain price segments where we need to do more in terms of strengthening the product portfolio, having the right price points, using the right channels to sell. I gave premium as an example in an earlier answer. So I think product portfolio is the second part of it, making sure that we have a product portfolio, which is relevant across price segments. And there are peculiarities in certain markets. A Mumbai is different from a Kochi versus the Delhi. So making sure that we have the right product to win in each one of those markets. So that's having a targeted approach in terms of product portfolio. . And then I talked about the influencer program. So there are multiple things that we're doing. So it's not just distribution and dealers and brand stores. It is product portfolio. It is the influencer program, for strengthening the plumber loyalty program that we have, strengthening the program that we have for architect, interior designers, using digitization and automation more and more, whether it's with our influencers or whether it's with our customers. So using automation, for example, in customer service as well to make it a better experience for our end consumers. So I think multiple things that we are doing across all the key levers to make sure that we get back to both top line and profitability improvement.

And given the margins where they are, are we looking at areas where either costs need to go down or some cost cutting? Or are you expecting OpEx to actually go up because of all the things that you're going to do and there will be more pressure on margins?

No. So one thing which we had talked about in earlier quarters is we have actually combined the back end for Bathware and Consumer Appliances. So that has already led to cost reductions in the last quarter, and will definitely be there in this quarter and going forward. So that's one concrete thing that we've already done. The other, like I said, is we're using a zero-based budgeting approach to developing the plan [ BOP ] for the next financial year to make sure that at a cost level as well, so whether it is in operations in the plants, whether it's in supply chain, whether it's in advertising and promotion, marketing in general and employee costs, of course. On all of them, making sure that we're extremely sharp based on the plans that we have. So the idea is not to increase any of these lines as a percentage of sales, but really look at sharpening it to make sure that the EBITDA then transfers into PBT as well.

Okay. And last question, given the debt level that we have and obviously, given where the stock price is, I'm assuming you may not do more capital raise on equity level. So what is the plan? Is this debt sustainable if we don't raise any equity for the next 12 months? Or are you going to raise equity? If you can talk a bit about that.

So as we have recently done a rights issue and -- which on a consolidated basis has reduced our debt. We are fairly confident with all the initiatives which Nirupam has talked about, we should come back...

Our debt is at INR 700 crores, right?

Yes.

Is that sustainable is my question.

Yes, because you have to see that based on the current run rate, definitely, you will have some questions on it. But we are working on a full recovery path, which is there, which we are very confident that we should be able to complete that very fast. And this debt can be sustained. That's not an issue.

The next question is from the line of [ Vatsal Parag ] from Knightstone Capital Management. The current participant has been disconnected. We will move on to the next question is from the line of Maitri Shah from Sapphire Capital.

Most of my questions have been answered. I just wanted to know that we're on the recovery path, as you mentioned multiple times. How long will it take us to be like EBITDA positive in the Consumer Appliances business?

So I think that was the question asked earlier as well. Like I said earlier, it's difficult to put an exact time frame. What we are confident of given the strong focus categories and focused approach in go-to-market and the robustness of the product portfolio that we have going forward, we will see an improvement quarter-on-quarter. So exact time frame, difficult to give, but I think over the next few quarters, we'll start seeing the improvements in top line and bottom line straight away.

And any like quantifiable number you can give for the guidance of '25 and '26 on top line and margins?

So we are still in the budgeting process. So it's not advisable to give such a short-term guidance. So we'll come back maybe with the medium- to long-term guidance, give us a quarter or so.

The next question is from the line of [ Vivek Kumar ] from Bestpals LLP.

Sir, can we at least tell are we #1, #2 in sanitary in and faucets at #3. Leave the market share, at least top -- we're on the top 1, 2 or top 1, 2, 3 in both the segments, both Sanitaryware and Faucets?

Yes. So the way to look at it is combined Sanitaryware and Faucets, we are definitely a top 3 player.

Not top 2?

In the segment in which we are.

Yes, in the segment that we play in.

So you're not in top 2, you're top 3, can I take that? .

Sorry?

You're not in the top 2, but in the top 3.

Correct.

Okay. But in Bathware?

So Bathware as a whole. So that's what I said.

In the Sanitaryware? In Sanitaryware alone, if I take because you used to be #1, you are still there or you have come to #3 or 2, so in Bathware?

Yes. I think the way we look at it is Sanitaryware and Faucets together. And there, like I said, we are a top 3 player.

Sir, same question that we are trying to ask. I agree, and I appreciate all the steps that the company is taking, but what is the reason why we lost? Okay, you're doing -- we understand we may come back your own, is it product or is it brand? Or is it company -- other company is doing something that we have failed to catch on with the preferences of the customers and some of the -- value has migrated in terms of preferences of customers somewhere? Or is it just we didn't give enough push to the distributors and the plumbers. So just diagnosis part, okay, we clearly now understand what you want to do, on what you're going to do, but if you can diagnose what led to us losing market share because we used to be number one.

Yes. It's a little difficult for me to talk about what happened historically since I've joined only in January. So obviously, it's a combination of factors, right? And I think it's very difficult at this stage to say which one led to what reaction. Having said that, we are looking at what we need to do to take the business back to a strong leadership position, strong top line growth and improvement in profitability. I think those are the key parameters that me and my team are working on, and we remain focused on that. I think postmortem of what happened would be a little unfair at this point of time.

Are you at least confident that whatever led to our market share loss is not a permanent loss? Or is it a structural thing that is difficult for us to get back?

Yes. I think I can unequivocally say that having spent a month now and been to the market, been to our plants, met the team, met distributors, dealers, customers. So I am absolutely confident that we're on the right path to get back to both growth as well as improvement in profitability. Absolutely.

So within a year, we would definitely see increase in your market share too apart from the growth, at least in the Bathware.

Yes, that's what I indicated. So all the actions that we're taking over the next 2 to 3 quarters, we'll start seeing the results.

Sir, last con call, you mentioned that there was a 10% saving on the manufacturing cost, like is it done deal or it's still going on?

So this process is already on. We are trying to in-source a lot of material, and that process is already on. But right now, the volumes are not taking in the market, so you're not seeing the full impact of that. So once the whole set of volume comes back, the manufacturing, as you will understand, has a lot of fixed cost and the variable cost structure built into it, and part of it is [indiscernible]. So as the volume builds up, you will see it has a double advantage to that. You reduce the cost of production in factory, your ability to talk with the distribution also increases substantially and eating the market share also becomes much easier. So it's a vehicle which has to now again pick up the momentum as it was in the past. So I think with all the initiatives which Nirupam is talking about, we should be able to build that momentum, but it may take 1 or 2 quarters to fully -- and these are not immediate short-term stuffs, which we can do. Some of those changes are external in nature, so which may take some time, maybe 2 quarters or 3 quarters. But there are subset of internal activities which we have thought of, and the work has already started off.

Sir, last question. So are you assuming a market growth in your projections of your growth? Or let's say, market stay where it is, still you will be able to get back to your growth path?

No. So the idea clearly is that while we're expecting the market growth not to be very high in the coming year, but to gain market share, obviously, the plan is to grow ahead of the market growth rate.

So you're assuming some growth in the market, like little bit growth?

Yes. So it's going to be single-digit growth. But within that, basically, we should grow faster than the market to gain market share by the end of the year, absolutely.

The next question is from the line of [ Vatsal Parag ] from Knightstone Capital Management.

Can you share your target EBITDA margins and revenue growth for each segment?

You mean our projections for FY '25, '26?

Yes. I mean for the near to -- like for 1 to 2 years, your target EBITDA margins and growth for each segment.

So we have already discussed about this. I think you got disconnected in the interim in the queue. So we are running this entire process internally. Maybe by the next call, we should be able to give some medium- to long-term ranges wherein we see that our performance should be as we had done a few years back, so I think we'll walk that path. So give us a quarter because a lot of internal working is being done, both on the cost side, market eating away into the market share, market growth and other things. So kindly bear with us for a quarter to have this figures with you.

Sure. Okay. And one question on the plastic pipe side. So we have a technology partner and one other player also has the same technology partner. So the EBITDA margins are substantially different in spite of having the same realization. So like what is stopping us from getting those mid-double-digit EBITDA margins in that segment? Is there something else here?

So basically, if you have to see this is a fairly sort of a young business for us now we are now 7, 8 years into this business. We have demonstrated extensively. Despite all the downturns in the market, there is a volume expansion, which has happened in this business by around 10%. But that's not visible because input PVC resin prices have come down. In order to eat away this market and build, as I was saying, in 2021, we had given a guidance that our pipe business by 2025 should be around INR 1,000 crores. And that time, we were doing around INR 400 crores of business when the guidance was given. So if you see today, if we talk on the same pricing terms as was in 2021, actually, we should have been doing INR 1,000 crores plus but we have got impacted with the reduction in input raw material prices. But the good part about the whole game is that we have been fairly successful in terms of our strategy on this. But we had to make some investments in order to eat away this market, like if you see our manpower costs, right now in this business is slightly higher. We have only one plant. So there is an additional supply chain cost to us. So these are the various points or the various delta points on which you see a margin differentiation between the other players and us. So with the onset of our Roorkee plant, which we feel that should start in another few months, there has been a delay there in terms of the equipments coming in. But once we start within next first quarter or so, you'll see -- start seeing some improvements happening, incremental sales will also come through. And that will overall affect the operating cost leverage for us because the teams which have been employed in terms of the sales. So we'll be more effective there in terms of percentages. So these are the few pointers on which we can talk in terms of the delta on the margins between other players and us.

Got it. And on the consumer side, so what will be our mix in the kitchenware and heating appliances, like on top line, what percentage are we doing on this part, which we are going to retain?

So at this point of time, 75% of the sales that we do in Consumer Appliances is kitchen appliances. Going forward, like I said, because we are focusing on only kitchen appliances and heating appliances in the short term at least and probably medium term, that mix is unlikely to change much because we have a strong focus on growing in kitchen appliances, where our right to win is strong. We have a very strong product portfolio. We have dedicated brand stores for it. So we expect that segment that we are focusing on to drive growth going forward. So that ratio will remain similar probably going forward.

Got it. And what will be a percentage of fans, which like we are going to get out of it completely, right?

Yes. Fans, absolutely. So we've stopped basically the fans business, and we will -- the stock that we have, we will get rid of, and there's no future plan for selling fans.

And if it's possible...

Mr. Vatsal, can you please.... The next question is from the line of Rusmik Oza from 9 Rays EquiResearch.

I had a follow-up question on the plastics and pipes business only. So revenue annualized right now, it's around INR 730 crores, utilization is already 77%, and we are at around 7% EBITDA margin. Just want to understand this Roorkee plant, how much is the potential revenue we can add over here, a? And beyond -- you already illustrated some examples, but can we go to double-digit EBITDA margins with INR 1,000 crore revenue? And if this is possible, by when can this happen?

So with the -- I'll just start with the Roorkee plant. So Roorkee plant is capable with all the fittings, which we'll supply from Hyderabad. Technically, our coverage in the North will increase. So from Roorkee plant, the total supplies sales can be a figure of around INR 225 crores to INR 250 crores. This is with a capacity of 12,500 initial capacity, although we have been saying that we build the infrastructure of the plant so that future expansion becomes easy in this. But right now, with the CapEx done, we can do around INR 250 crores. So in terms of a double-digit expansion, so there are some levers, which we already talked about. One is our fixed cost structure is right now higher. So if the value of the sales increase, so let's say, had there not been a drop in the input resin prices, you would have seen our EBITDA margin expanding substantially because in 9 months, we have done around 10%, 11% of volume expansion, but the value expansion is not there. So all this is -- the input raw material prices, once it starts increasing, so it will add directly to the bottom line. We have given a guidance that long term, we should be able to achieve the markets are back and PVC resin prices are somewhere in the range of 85, 90 plus, we should have healthy around 10%, 12% EBITDA margin.

Okay. Okay. And this Roorkee plant, when does it start full production? In the first year, what kind of utilization levels are you anticipating, sir?

So we feel somewhere in April, May, we should start partially. As the machines are getting -- because this is an array of machines. So as the machine comes in, we will start production. And the full loading of plant may take around 9 months where it will be around somewhere around 70%, 75% loaded.

Okay. Sir, the last question is, I missed out on the debt figure. After the rights issue of INR 400 crores, what is the current outstanding net debt? And based on the cash flows we'll anticipate, how can we see this debt figure going down in the next 2 years?

So we did a rights of INR 250 crores, not INR 400 crores.

Sorry.

After which the total debt size today, net debt is around INR 700 crores. Right now, I think your questions are very apt considering the current profitability, how the whole service of debt is going to happen. But we are confident with all the initiatives, the EBITDA is going to flow back, and we will have a substantial free cash flows from operations to pay the debt, which is there on the company.

The next question is from the line of [ Vivek Kumar ] from Bestpals LLP.

Sir, in the Consumer Products division, we would be concentrating only on the kitchen appliances and the heating and coolers also we are out, right?

Yes. Coolers, we may sell only through e-commerce channel.

Okay. That is for now, for the next few years?

Yes, at this point in time, yes.

So you have been enumerating all the steps that you have taken. So in terms of market share and growth, even if assuming a low single-digit total market growth, when will we see because we still have West and parts of West we can improve our penetration and all. When can we see real good sustainable growth in Sanitaryware or Bathware? How many quarters after which you will get the confidence that we are on the track, we are done with the downturn?

I think as Mr. Sikka and I have mentioned, we expect all the initiatives that we are putting into play, both on growth and cost to kick in, in the next 2 to 3 quarters.

So by the end of next year, we should be on the growth path, right, both in terms of...

Correct.

Sir, only one last question. Is there -- at least this part, I'm not asking you to do the whole diagnosis for me, but is the brand got hit somewhere? Or you're still confident that your brand is still doing good in the sanitaryware part? Sanitaryware is where I'm asking. Did the brand get hit?

So in all consumer research that we do, the unaided brand recall for Hindware is the highest in the industry. So the brand continues to be extremely strong. Unaided recall is the highest. Aided recall is also very high. So I think the key is through all the actions we are taking, converting that awareness into preference, basically getting people to buy. So awareness of the brand is not the issue. It is basically then using -- being there where consumers are buying the products so the go-to-market, having the right products at the right price point and also leveraging the influencers. I think all of those will basically go and help us in terms of gaining share there.

Sir, in the pipes division, if you can -- if you do not mind, please share more information in the presentation in terms of institutional versus retail and what percentage and what are the segments we are selling to? Or if you can tell on the call, it's okay, either way, in the pipes division, is it quarterly B2C?

Pipe business is our distributor business. So we sell out to a distributor. It's not a direct -- we don't go directly to the builders like that. So that market opportunity still exists for us. But right now, the focus is purely on distributing it across the country. So maybe a few percentage of it might be going into the projects, but essentially through the distributor. That distributor might be tapping into it. Right now, we are not doing that.

But you're not -- end demand, you're not calculating or you're not tracking?

Sorry, I couldn't get you.

End where it is going, projects are normal -- you're not tracking that, right? That's what I am asking.

Distributors we'll not let you know like where they are selling because that's -- for competitors there are.

Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraint, this was the last question for today's conference call. I now hand the conference over to the management for their closing comments.

Thank you, everybody, for joining the call today. I know the results have not been that great, but the number of initiatives, which we have spoken about, we are fairly confident we will come back very fast. So thanks for all the questions, and we appreciate it. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. On behalf of Arihant Capital Markets Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.