HKBN Ltd. (1310) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. So it's 10:00 our time. And we want to make this a presentation on this call very flexible. If you guys want to go through a quick presentations that we run through like in the morning -- in the afternoon, like we can do that. We have William Yeung here, like expertise, especially on some of our new initiatives. And -- but if you guys have questions, want to jump right into the questions, you're very welcome to do that. So -- but please do let us know.

We're just saying that we're going to go straight to the Q&A. No need to repeat the PowerPoints.

Unless you want to watch our presentation. Maybe you can present for us. How you interpret like our message. And our initiatives.

So far, we have 10 people in the meeting? If no one is asking question, then maybe I think I can sort of serve you like what we think. First, we think we are a very solid in our core business. That is the FTNS and also the technology service that is -- I mean, the service revenue, including the recurring revenue from SI as well, together with the recurring income from FTNS. And how I look at the market is that basically in the Enterprise markets, we only see 1 competitor, that is Hong Kong T. Because in many of the cases when our salespeople or even myself, when not meet some corporate customers, 8 or 9 times out of 10 visits, we will see Hong Kong T as well, but maybe only 4 times out of 10 customers that we met, we will see HTC. Basically, I think because of we have a stronger and wider coverage. New World, HKBN and also Wharf, 3 networks together, which is much bigger and comprehensive than HTC's. I think that makes the main difference. That's why I would say, in the Enterprise market, we only apply 1.5 competitors, Hong Kong T in 1, HGC in the 0.5 And in the Residential market, we only have 1 competitor, that is HKT. We will really take the others, i-CABLE, CMHK or HTC is irrelevant because they maybe have the extensive residential coverage. Someone may ask CMHK aggressively laying their fibers. So they will be a strong competitor. I will tell you that is wrong because anyone can easily lay fiber horizontally under the cloud, but no one can easily install the enduring bulk wiring of the fiber inside the trunks of commercial or residential buildings because that is very difficult. Particularly Hong Kong T and us in the past 2 decades when we build our network, we sort of jam-pack these spaces inside the trunk. So it is very difficult for the third or fourth comers to lay the fiber inside the buildings. That's why if you look at the past 2 decades, you only see New World or Wharf leading the competition. You didn't see any new competitors joining the fixed broadband network industry because it's difficult for the last mile vertical wiring. That's why the fixed broadband industry, in fact, is really very fundamental and I would say, comfortable cash count for mainly 2 players in both Residential and Enterprise market. And the good trend is that both adding rationally for a price increase when Hong Kong people is seeing price increase for everything. So it's also normal for us to increase price as well. That's why we are upbeat in our core FTNS service revenue, EBITDA and then the cash flow coming from this. And in the Enterprise market, when we also were successful in bundling the IT solutions together with FTNS that's really executing our direction of ICT transcendence. That may take time. But if you look at the strong backlog like HKD $4.7 billion on hand as compared to HKD 1.8 billion 6 months revenue of year, then you will see where the momentum is going forward. So I think that is my main sharing that we are quite upbeat. [ Instead ], can you guys tell us any question? Anything that make you wake up in the middle of night? Pleased to highlight, let's see, we can show you with our thoughts as well. Neale? You're Neale?

Yes. So I don't want to take time from other people. But 1 thing I struggle with is the visibility of the Enterprise revenue coming through. So each of the past few presentations, there's been a strong order book and an inflection in forward booking orders, but still the results in terms of revenue and profit in Enterprise isn't coming through. And so can you tell us more about the timing of that? And I also understood that the Greater Bay Area previously was weak because it's slower opening after the COVID restrictions. But that should be a new area of business for you guys. And if you got any more color on that? I mean, that like a new market. So that should have been growing from very low levels, COVID era. But I can't see that in the numbers either.

Okay. First, we'll talk about the Enterprise. You are right. The conversion of the backlog, I mean, the booking number, converting them into the revenue or EBITDA, it is slower than expected. Reason is that the Enterprise, whether they are the private sector or even the government, they are sort of delaying their spend. All these spend, they're committed, but they are just deferring. Somebody will say, "I want to defer you next quarter." Someone will even say, "We only want to do a smaller part of the committed projects, leaving others to like next financial year." Something like that. But I will say that is something deferred, but we will still appear sooner or later. And -- for your information, that when we say backlog, the backlog also includes the FTNS service. So that is very solid. You can notice that all of them are 2 years contracts maturity, and then 70% margin. And when I share you about the IT . Simplified or AegisConnect, those bundle to our FTNS service because we are able to use higher speed. And therefore a Wi-Fi router with a security service or we can help them to monitor their performance like from our NOC, Network Operation Center, getting rid of the IT hiccups, something like that. So that is bundled with FTNS. So this service never go away because it's already bundled with the core FTNS. So I would say this will just need more time to deliver. The segment on the GBA is that -- put it this way, we don't have like about 10 offices or 50% or 51% or 52% of our Enterprise headcounts are located in China in GBA area. But the business in the big cities in test are not performing as good as expected. I mean, Beijing, Shanghai and Guangzhou, these areas, the orders are still more or less the same. But margin are lower. Sort of companies in this area, they suffer a lot. However, we have a rising star. You can mention a small place, but contributing like huge increase in revenue and EBITDA, that is Macau. Macau, all the casinos, all the hotels, they spend a lot. And in Macau, we basically -- I guess, in Macau, being an SI, we used to be the #1 in Macau. And you can imagine that as some of the hospitality, industry-level hotels or casinos, the owners, they invest the companies in Hong Kong. So they are also our customers in Hong Kong. And our vendors like Cisco or Microsoft, they like to partner with us to serve customers in Macau. So overall, our Chinese revenue and EBITDA are improving. But big contributor is from Macau and some other smaller GPA area that, as I mentioned this afternoon that retail outlets in Hong Kong, they are always here, will also be shipped by us. I can tell you, I can't name the customer, but the customer, they have supermarket, fast-food chain and also the furniture outlet in Hong Kong, you can imagine that which one I'm referring. As far as that we are catering from their security or storage or data center service, we also got the private property service to their 2,000 outlets across the whole Hong Kong. Once this is okay, then the next month, we'll be serving their outlets in GBA area. But it will take time, orders already secured on hand, but I need to do it like bit by bit. So that is my update to you on the China or GBA area.

So related to that, it sounds like it's a weak corporate or the macro environment is resulting in slower growth. But one thing I expected there is that HKT, because it hasn't had much competition for a while, the prices are quite high. I thought that HKBN would benefit because you're coming in with really quite low prices. It's an opportunity for corporates to save costs, given that they're all under pressure. Is that happening? It sounds like that is also quite difficult.

Yes and no. Yes, for the small to medium companies. When this company's decision is to pause. But if we are going to the large enterprises, like the banks with the CIOs, it is more difficult. Why? Because you can imagine that for example, CIO of a Hong Kong bank. For them, the safest way is still staying with the incumbent, with Hong Kong T because many other banks also using Hong Kong T. If Hong Kong T has something wrong, all the banks are suffering, they being hacked or network outage, something like this. But if they shift to HKBN even at cheaper price, they think these savings won't compensate for any possible risk to them. Not saying that we are not reliable. But if Hong Kong T has something wrong, then they have more people joining them to be suffered. That is the mindset of the CIO. Having said that, big banks, big companies like HKBN, like -- like Hong Kong bank or others, they will still need a backup provider. So I will say we are getting more share from people shifting from HTC to us as the alternate service provider to big companies like the banks. There are some medium-sized banks that start to take us as the primary provider like some banks from Singapore, they're using us to replace HKT as the prime provider. But I would say for this large enterprise, it's going to take much longer time. But medium sized, I can call you the names like Optical 88, like the furniture chain Pricerite, like Pizza Hut, like Mcdonald, like Maxim's all these are our customers. We are their main provider.

Got it. And then on the Enterprise team, the senior sales hires, there was quite a bit of discussion. Has there been any churn in that team? Is it quite stable? Is it fully complete now? You've made the hires you need in William Ho's team?

Yes. Put it this way. Yes, we have presales, sales and delivery, or what we call post sales. For me, how I look at this that the post sales, who's going to deliver the backlog? This is a very stable team. And recently, when I would say recent is just like -- early April, the presales team was merged with the post sales team. So that means we have people joining the sales to visit the customer together to demonstrate our strength, more solutions. We have -- when we go back, it's the same team with their post sales or delivery people here that attach with the account manager to serve the customers. What I want to say is that the presales team have already been merged within the post sales team. So delivery of backlog will be very strongly stable. We are in fact recruiting more people whose skill set is sort of mid- to higher tier. But for sales team, yes, honestly, there is in and out. We do have -- some one time we find their performance is not good, that we will proactively replace them. Someone, they will go back to the original employer because they sort of coming here as a department head. And going back, they're sort of taking a role as COO, even more senior. Then that is, I would say, natural. But having said that, for the large enterprise teams, we do have like 6 teams. So if 1 or 2 SI or IT sales heads delivers, we have remaining 4 or 5 are doing the midyear sale we leave it before we have a new head joining. So in short, I don't see any impact on our delivery of committed backlog orders and also still updates on the sales with new orders, particularly as you have seen about the increasing ICT solutions and also the unique 25-gig speed that is not comparable by others. So salesman, our sales team, they are smart. Who's been stronger, who is having something unique, they go to you.

Thank you. Speaking of unique services. Again, before there was the discussion that -- I think it's 2 gigabit guaranteed latency service. Can you share some details on that? What was the uptake? What's the response been like for that service on the Residential side?

Okay. When we say guaranteed speed, it is like an 80% of the speed that we offer to you. If your speed is lower than 80% of what we offer, then we sort of -- we refund a [indiscernible] prorated monthly fee to you, like it's peanuts. One day -- today, you have outage, then I give you refund within 2 days monthly fee to you. It's something like that. It has been here for like 2 decades. But the latency guarantee is something new that we launched last year. So far, I will say people are happy. Honestly, I don't have any data on hand to answer you. But obviously, people just noticed that you are faster and latency is having something in control, then we trust you.

But thinking about the 25-gig service, how much demand is there even for 2 or 10 gigs? It seems more people make...

Yes. Honestly, I think everyone in this call, including all the other friends here, I don't think any one of us need 10 gig. But the -- let's talk about the perception and the experience of just 1 time or 2 time. When you -- put it this way. When you register, when you have 10 gig, like it's 10x the speed of 1 gig. So when you download or stream, you're talking about someone need 10 seconds, then you need just 1 second. So the 9 seconds in that is in irrelevant to many users. But the point is that if the price gap between like 10 gig and 2 gig is not too big, then why not pay for 10 gig to enjoy the super experience when you have something like 8K video or 3-dimension video teleconference on that area, you may like to use that. But as you saw in the OFCA's data, 2/3 of Hong Kong people are using 1 gig or above. But I'm very sure that 95% of them are actually using speed that 100 megabit can support. It's the same psychology that we apply to 2.5 gig, 5 gig, 10 gig or 25 gig, especially when we are talking about -- by the way, when we say 25 gig, it is only over and up to 20 gig symmetric because they are 25 gig download, 20 gig upload. So it is 20 gig symmetric. But my point is, you can imagine all the mobile operators, can any one of them afford not having 5G when the others having 5G? And 5G has already been in the market for like 5 years. But still today, majority is still 4G for them. But for fixed network, it's different. It different because when you get this 25G or 20G, 15G, you're dedicated only to your home. So you're guaranteed with this speed and nowadays, we have more users. When the speed sort of divide -- once you connect to the Wi-Fi router, then the higher speed will make a difference. So 100 megabits or 100 megabit -- sorry, 100 meg or 500 meg, it won't help if you have like a Wi-Fi 7 router on 2 or 3 such routers within your home, your room, your living room, the study room. And it will make the difference.

And in terms of pricing, you already offered 10-gig service. What was the...

No, 10 gig service is -- what HKT has already offered. But today, we are offering 25 gig at the same price of their 10 gig. It is like [ HKD 998 ] or [ HKD 988 ], I either one for 10 gig for Hong Kong T and it is our 25 gig at HKBN.

I don't want to take all the time, but I have more questions. Probably 1 for Derek on the IDD revenue. So is that going to decline further from here? Is it going to go to 0? Or can it recover? Can it stabilize? What's the outlook for the next half and in '25 as well?

The decline is primarily related to the China regulations I spoke about today. And -- but there are also demand in the other countries as well. So China is a very big population, a lot of traffic in there. But we are also supported in some of the other region needs. For example, Philippines is like a very good example in there as well. But again, this is a -- I would say this is a non-core businesses, and we will serve primarily the customers. And if there is a need for that one, like we will serve but it's not intentionally or strategically area that like we want overly focus or we want to overly leverage in that area.

But in terms of -- do you expect it to decline further in the second half? Is that -- is it now flat? When did the regulation sort of kick in? Obviously, there's a structural decline, but there's also the impact of the regulation. So I'm just trying to work out what the impact is going to be.

The regulations actually has been set, like, I believe, like 3, 4 years ago. But in fact, they -- yes. But they actually effect it. Sometimes China like going to pass the regulation and pass a law, but no one actually they follow and no one actually has done anything. They started to tighten up, I believe, is the beginning of this year, put in place. So that slows a lot of the traffic down like into China. And when I look at it would probably -- if I look at overall the IDD businesses for us, it will be a slower than last year, it will be lower than last year. But some -- and again, some of these actually by design, right, because it's a business that, like we don't want to be overly emphasized. So if I look at the full year outlook, it will be lower than last year. Again, this is actually very understanding...

Any margin?

Right, right. We see margin right.

Right. And can you give any color on what sort of percentage it is of sales of Enterprise sales? Is it low single digits or...

Yes. Yes. You're talking about the IDD, right? Low single digit.

And can you give any comment on NiQ Lai resigning as CEO? Any additional comment on that?

You know him. You're his friend.

I haven't had a chance to speak to him. Yes.

Yes. We both know him for decades. NiQ always likes to make certain decisions. So to me, I will say in our operations sort of seamless because NiQ, like 3 months I said particularly before, and I can just step in and then take up the job immediately. NiQ and I have been working together for over 18 years or co-found the new HKBN since CVC in 2012 and then IPO in 2015. I would say, like, Neale, you can sense or smell that we two basically can relieve each other when the other is not in Hong Kong, like for long period or whatever. So it actually don't have any impacts on our operations. In fact, I will say in execution, I am even faster. I just finished my full marathon from Japan. So you know I run faster than NiQ a lot.

I think I have 1 more question and then done -- it relates to the contract and the new contract, the renewal ARPU in Residential. So this is a pretty big inflection, HKD 177 to HKD 198 (sic) [ HKD 181 ] in the first half. So does that mean in the very near term, like the next 6 months, next 12 months, you've got a better outlook for growth in Residential than Enterprise? It sounds like Enterprise is still pretty tough.

Put it this way. Because our price increase has been for 1 year or 2 sections of 6 months. So the first 6 months, the price increase is like the percentage of increase is high. Second one, we still increase. But not so high compared with the first 6 months If the same trend of our price and the incumbents are more or less repeating what's happening in the past 12 months, then I will say, yes, we definitely we will see solid growth, solid improvement in the service revenue and also the EBITDA of our residential market. But what I say is that the price increase of Hong Kong T and us has been -- like sustainable for 12 months. But we don't know what's going to happen in the next 6 or 12 months. For example, if people don't -- are not selling or HKD 78, they even sell for HKD 58, then maybe because for us, as I mentioned, we don't mind losing some low-end customers out from our network. But with Hong Kong T, they think otherwise. They say they think they still need to maintain the market share. Or the -- then they can -- they will react with some lower price, for example, in property housing estates. Then if they drop price in property housing estates in order to react to the new load. From this #3 and 4, then we may need to react as well. That's something that I can't control. But as far as the outlook, I will say, for us, we will continue to increase price. Why? Because whenever we increase price, they not just simply increase price for the same offer of service. We will add on something. You can imagine, for example, if I want to increase monthly fee of like HKD 20 in your postpaid service, then it is HKD 20 x 24 months. It will be like HKD 480 over 2 years period, right? But then I can bundle a SIM card with value of like HKD 300 for roaming service outside Hong Kong. But this HKD 300 might cost me, may be just like HKD 60. So I will use these things to bundle and increase price. But for Hong Kong T, it's difficult because they are like different business units, P&L. Not easy to cross upsize, but for us simple one [indiscernible]. So to share with you like Derek said, the Residential part, particularly in the EBITDA, I would say, well done. B+.

Sorry, the EBITDA is?

Well done. I gave you a grade of B+.

Will, you're a tough marker, only B+. I will go back and tell Elinor.

Derek, just to confirm, you said the EBITDA in residential, its absolute EBITDA has grown quite well year-on-year. Is that right?

Yes.

Despite the revenue decline because you lost...

Yes, even despite the job of line 1,700 customers.

Right. Is this a better mix?

Yes.

You got it right, yes. It's actually a very difficult concept for some of the people to understand. So your dollar could be like up HKD 1, like down HKD 1. Your revenue could be a little bit higher or a little bit lower, but it really depends on the mix and the duration of the plan. And also the promo that like we have been doing for the past like 12 months or 14 months. So my team working with the Residential teams, it's like they very thorough and now they execute quite well. They execute quite well. And when we look at the EBITDA, the EBITDA are actually very stable. Not only very stable, has been delivering a very positive year-over-year growth. But we don't usually disclose the data to that level of detail, but I can share with you that it's a very strong encouraging EBITDA year-over-year growth.

When I look at the business, like in the coming 6 months or even in the coming 1 or 2 years, I look at anything better or anything worse, right, when Compared with the past 6 months or past 2 years. Then I think fundamental difference is that we really have a much higher broadband speed at a competitive price level. That will help me reduce attrition rates, strengthened by acquisition and also give me the bullet to increase price. So that is -- and this is to my core business. That is very important. When I say core business or upgrade at speed, we -- in some of the cases, we even do not need to send technicians to like change the modem at their home. So it is really a scalable low or no OpEx case, simply price increase. And most of them -- the other point of increasing EBITDA is lower cost. We will use less people from our Guangzhou telesales center because we have we started for a couple of months using AI Whatsapp to communicate with our customers. That is taking more popular and more than before. And this like digital transformation, we also apply to the inbound cold call center in Residential area and also the Enterprise area as well. So the cost control is also important in helping our EBITDA.

Got it. I realize I just have 1 more, which is on the co-ownership-- that looks difficult, co-ownership target...

Co-ownership has already run its course.

Right. So what do you do? Do you set up a new program?

No. Yes or no. I will say not in calendar year 2024. If there is something new, I will say it will be second half of financial year '25.

This is Norman from Value Partners. First about the macro. So everybody knows our Hong Kong macro is not that great. So we are seeing news that shops are closing, even bigger supermarkets are also closing. So we are seeing you are dropping a few thousand lines, right, in the past 6 months.

Yes correct.

So do you see that stabilizing or still going or even...

That is now stabilized. That means the drop in the second half should be smaller than the first half.

When we read from the news, so we are seeing actually increasing closure, right?

Increasing what?

Closure. Business culture.

Okay. But for ours, those who left are mainly like trading company, like it's more printing company, like those companies, they are selling souvenirs or companies who are organizing exhibitions or conventions. Those like smaller...

I see Okay. Okay. Good. Okay. Second is about your new price data offering. So I don't understand what is the role of Nokia here? Do we need to share revenue with them?

A good point. It is not a revenue sharing, but they do support us, is a very good payment terms. Because when I talk to Nokia, I am very simple, I will say, "Hey, we have quite high clearing. We want to expand as much as possible or as fast as possible. Can we build something win-win?" It is not a revenue sharing, then it is like a significant defer of payment of the -- for us it is our CapEx. Otherwise, before I think the new customers -- when I think at new customers, I'm talking about new customers monthly fee times 24 months, but maybe I need -- first 9 or 10 months revenue together to pay your own equipment, something like it. So they are making sure that in the payment of the equipment to them basically, we won't have any burden on cash flow.

I see. Okay. Got it. So in your business study case of this offering, do you have a target subscriber number?

I don't, for the time being because it is really very new. And Nokia is not -- honestly, Nokia is not as big as Huawei, particularly in Hong Kong. So it is a first time that we commit like huge resources, not only us, but both companies are seriously committing huge resources to work together. So I don't know if there's any hiccup in the delivery or the implementation. So I think when we launched in June, I need to think like 3 moths, like June, July or August. After taking customers in both Enterprise, Residential, hearing some customer feedback and internally talking to our engineer, who's rolling out the network in storing their equipment and see the feedbacks. So I would say, usually, we have a business case. But for this, because -- now we don't have any MOQ. We don't have any upfront cash flow burden. So we can have our business case after our Q4 financial year, that means after August, then we can -- by then, I can tell you.

Okay. Good. A quick question on the Enterprise side. So just as you know, your backlog, HKD 4.7 billion, which is great. What's the margin inside this backlog?

Okay. Margin is like -- there are mainly 2 types, One, is the FTNS, fixed telecom network service, which is in the margin range of 60% to 70%, okay? And then the other area is the IT solutions. That will cover -- that will be quite many. Storage, server, data center, cybersecurity, cloud and then also the -- selling the notebook and the computers. And then follow with the maintenance income of this notebook or computer. So the range of GP on these areas where we can be as low as single digit like 8% or 9% on reselling the PC or the notebooks can be as high as 45% on the maintenance service because when we charge customers, sometimes we say we charge an entire amount and then you can provide like 3 or 2 visits or maintenance hours to you. But in many cases, customers usually don't need this service. So it is like receiving revenue without any cost because we do not need to do the maintenance. So it's different. And for other SI services, the margin varies between like 20% to 25%. So it is a mix of this. But having said that, I would say, because we are now more disciplined on the GP, i.e. we -- our focus is less on penetrating new accounts, but more on cultivating each account on hand. So the delivery of the EBITDA will be better than before.

Okay. Good to know.

Having said that, because we are more stringent on the GP in the coming quarters, then the growth of the booking maybe not as high as before. You understand what I mean?

Yes. Okay. Just a few questions on the numbers. So I noticed you control costs. So -- and also the tenant number had dropped. So my question is, do you foresee still more cost cutting going forward? And what's the limit to that?

Yes, we will still have some more cost cutting like in the coming -- maybe coming in 3 months. I can't tell because we will cut some non-revenue generating headcount some more, particularly those senior one. But at the same time, we will also -- we put more people to help us with the digital transformation such that we can apply AI GPT or apply other digital tools to help us do our jobs in a more simple way or more efficient rate. So more headcounts on digital transformation and more headcount on sales. And also the people for the post sales, i.e. delivery, we want more people to deliver such that we can turn faster the HKD 4.7 billion backlog in the revenue. So yes, we will have a further headcount reduction, but also we will include some new headcounts. So net-net, headcount costs will further reduce, but won't be too significant, particularly for this financial year, why?, our financial end at August when you ask somebody to go, you need to pay them like 1 or 3 months' salary. Let notice, and you need to pay it up and now. So you won't help much on the number before August end.

Okay. But can we expect that for the next 6 months, the total cost, operating costs will still go that way?

Will still what?

Go down. Decrease.

Yes, the headcount cost won't be up in reflect or slightly down.

I see. Got it. Okay. And then a question on the AFF. Obviously, the biggest items impacting the AFF is 2 items. Number one is the high interest expense and the working capital, right? So my question is, has the interest expense peak? Because you have some hedging and financing, so it's better to figure out. So is HKD 362 million already peak? And next one is, will the working capital number change again in 6 months?

So it's -- it's never easy to speculate the interest rate movement, right? So we all follow and we all have our own opinion in terms of what the U.S. Fed will do, how many cuts. So as you are aware that like half of our syndicate, basically half of our syndicate is a fixed rate. And then the other half is the floating rate. So it follows -- it really follows like the market movement on the interest rate. So it's -- everyone had a different opinion whether the -- it peaks or it's coming down. We do actually see like for the past -- I would say, for the past couple of months, the floating rate of HIBOR actually has come down to a -- a 4%, currently sitting at 4% level versus in some of the months like back in November, it's sitting at a very all-time high, like 5.4%. So from that perspective, we are seeing a bit of a bending down, and that helps a little bit in terms of the cash flow. And for the working capital, working capital always have a little bit of the seasonality and also on the timing. The working capital actually slightly decreased. I mentioned in our presentation today, because on the global demand on the handset actually decreases, this is primarily related to the iPhone, the iPhone 15. So it's a retail model, it's a retail model that actually helps us to drive a lot of cash flow from operation very quick because we collect -- we get the cash immediately. Then we have a very good payment term in terms of with Apple. So that helps. So in the first half, that actually is not helping us because the global demand in the handset actually decreases. But in terms of the second half, it's also a little bit of the seasonality in terms of how we are paying the vendors and how we're collecting like the money receivable as well. So the working capital will improve has always been usually in the second half will improve slightly. So we are projecting probably the same trend, same pattern will happen.

Okay. So yes, my last question is, is there any guidance for the second half TPS, TPU?

No. But as mentioned, now it's already end-April. As operator, managing the huge space in Enterprise and also with Residential customers with renewal of contracts the like calling customers to sign contracts in advance like 5 or 6 months in advance. Today, we will now like -- like 90% sure of what number we'll be by end of August. So my point is that the second half financials EBITDA or free cash flow will definitely be better than first -- better than first half. But how are we going to allocate which portion is for dividend or which portion is for other purposes, then we will discuss at a Board level by end of second half. But operational-wise, it's very solid. It will be a clear improvement. Okay. That is almost 1 hour. I think let's end the call then. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

Thank you very much. Bye-bye.