HT Media Limited (533217) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. This is Aaditya Mulani from the HT Media Group. I would like to welcome you all to our quarter 2 financial year 2023-'24 earnings webinar. [Operator Instructions] I now hand over to Ms. Anna Abraham, CFO, Hindustan Media Ventures Limited, and Head Investor Relations. Thank you, and over to you, Anna.

Thank you, Aaditya. A very good afternoon to everyone. On behalf of HT Media Group, I welcome you to our earnings webinar to discuss the financial results of the second quarter of financial '23-'24. On the call with me today are Mr. Piyush Gupta, group CFO; Mr. Pervez Bajan, Group Controller; and members of the Investor Relations team. The financial results of Hindustan Media Ventures Limited was declared last Wednesday, that is 2nd November, and of HT Media was released earlier today. We will cover the highlights of the same during this call. Our remarks will track the presentation on the Zoom webinar. This presentation and the financial statements are available on the stock exchanges and the Investor Relations sections of our websites. Slide 2 captures the disclaimer regarding forward-looking statements, which is on your screens right now. Kindly keep this in mind, as per practice, we do not provide specific revenue or earnings guidance. The current slide gives our Chairperson's comments on the performance of the company for the quarter, and I quote, "The business environment improved significantly in the first half of the current financial year on the back of improved government spending. Your company's performance in the second quarter compared to the year-ago period saw higher operating margins despite muted revenue growth, with gains coming from the easing of newsprint rates. Revenues of our Print business remained flat on a sequential basis, with a marginal decline compared to last year, but this was primarily due to a shift in festive season this year. Radio posted healthy growth and our Digital business also performed credibly in quarter. The global environment continues to be volatile, both on the economic and geopolitical fronts. If the crisis in West Asia deepens, it could impact India, and therefore, our businesses. However, we continue to be optimistic and believe the festive season will bring all around cheer. We thank our diverse and loyal audiences across multiple mediums and platforms and remain steadfast in our commitment to being a reliable source of credible news and engaging content." Now we have the table of contents, which covers the agenda for today. We will begin the performance update with comments on our consolidated financials for the second quarter followed by detailed remarks on our Print, Radio and Digital businesses. We will open for a Q&A session after the presentation concludes. With this, I hand over to Mr. Piyush Gupta for the rest of the presentation.

Thank you, Anna. So I'll just be tracking the presentation. As you can see from the chart in front of you, the total revenue for the quarter declined 5% on a Y-o-Y basis. As we had articulated earlier, this is primarily on the -- primarily because of the shift in the festive season, so most of the festive season is now in Q3 as opposed to last year when it was in the second quarter. Other income also saw a relative decline on a Y-o-Y basis. EBITDA profitability improved in the quarter, owing to easing of newsprint rate as compared to the prior fiscal, and we will talk about it a little bit more. Now we go into the business unit performance. First, Print. As we can see on ad revenue, on a Y-o-Y basis, our ad revenue declined 9%, with circulation revenue up 3%. Operating revenue as a consequence was down 6%. Operating EBITDA improved because of the newsprint prices. And the key highlights, advertising revenue declined because the shift in the festive season impacted ad volumes. Despite revenue decline, operating EBITDA saw a Y-o-Y margin expansion by the decline of newsprint prices. On a quarter-on-quarter, we can see revenue was flat. Circulation revenue was marginally up by 1%, and operating revenue came out flat with operating revenue at INR 2 crores. A little deep dive into English. On a Y-o-Y basis, there was a decline in ad revenue of 9%. On a sequential basis, there was a growth of 2%. On the circulation, on a Y-o-Y basis, there was an increase of 35%, and on a quarter-on-quarter basis, there was a 10% improvement. Going to Hindi. On the ad revenue, we saw a decline of 8% and sequentially, a decline of 2%. On circulation, there was a decline of 5% on a Y-o-Y basis and 2% on a Q-on-Q basis. Radio, the operating revenue grew by about 8%, which was largely led by the non-FCT revenue. Operating EBITDA, as a consequence, remains flat. And on a sequential basis, there was a margin improvement in top line with the operating EBITDA coming at INR 2 crores. On the digital, we saw revenue grow by about 10%, coming at INR 36 crores, with operating EBITDA remaining flat with a negative INR 21 crores. On a sequential basis, the revenue was also flat with EBITDA coming at a minus INR 17 crores. With that, we come to the end of the presentation. Back to you, Anna.

Thank you, Piyush. We will now begin the Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from Ketan Athavale. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

Hello. Am I audible?

Yes, please.

I'm Ketan Athavale from RoboCapital. I wanted to know, if I see in your segmental accounts, there is a PBT unallocated loss and a digital loss. So can you explain what exactly is included in these two things?

Yes. So unallocated is a whole host of amounts, which are largely corporative nature. So it will include corporate fees, it will -- any kind of fair valuation on instruments. It will have legal and audit fees, all of that sitting there. There is a marginal amount pertaining to certain new businesses that we are exploring, but those are marginal numbers.

So basically, corporate overheads, which cannot be allocated to a particular segment.

Okay. And on the digital side?

Digital, in the investor presentation, we have put all the brands, which are forming part of Digital for HT Media. It is Shine. It is Mosaic. It is a business of digital entertainment and OTTplay.

Okay. So regarding this OTTplay, I wanted to ask, so what is -- so up to when will this loss continue? What plan do you have? And by when can we see it turn profitable?

Yes. Well, I think that's a great question. Look, OTTplay, as you are aware, now we've been at it about 6 quarters now and that we had basically given a flavor on the last quarter's call. It will be few more quarters before we will see a profit coming in. As we had said that we are trying to aggregate the OTT platform, OTT gaining -- increasing by about 10% to 12% as an individual platform. And really, we have one of the first movers advantage on the OTT platform. So I don't think we are turning in a profit anytime very quickly, but it will take another 4 to 6 quarters before we will have profits coming in there. Right now, we are basically getting a good subscriber base, which will renew their subscription, and hence, we can have a glide path to profitability.

Okay. And can you give an amount, rough figure, how much cash burn is expected going ahead on this thing? And what is your plan regarding balance of the cash?

Well, look, I think there will be cash burn for sure, but we don't give forward-looking numbers, but it will be fair to assume, so if you look at the segment numbers right now, I think what you are seeing as a cash burn at this point in time, we are really cycling on the top of the line. So the cash burn will remain static to declining. It's not going to go up from here on.

Okay. Got it. And I had a few questions on printing side as well. So in Printing business also, we have some amount of loss, printing and publishing or maybe it's slightly profitable, but the peers are making much better profit. So can I understand the reason for that? What will be the reason?

So I can give you a high-level reason. When you talk about peers, you're really talking about Dainik Bhaskar and Dainik Jagran. So first of all, you need to remember they are a pure-play Hindi and other languages publication as opposed to us, which has English and Hindi. So both the businesses have different set of dynamics. That's point #1. Point #2, when you look at Bhaskar's number, you have to really remember there are 2 or 3 state election revenue, which are sitting in their number as opposed to Jagran, which does not. So we really can be compared to a Jagran kind of a number and where we don't have too much of a delta. Now, of course, Jagran being the #1 player in UP or at least the Eastern part of the UP does have a marginal advantage to us, but not a huge number -- a huge amount of advantage. So really the point I'm trying to make is, with Bhaskar, it's not really an apple-to-apple comparison in terms of market because in those markets, there is an election revenue which is sitting in those publication's P&L.

And Dainik Jagran per se didn't have presence in some of their markets. Some of the other publications did have some markets, so that could also have some bearing on the delta.

Yes. And about the election side question, so what benefit do you see coming from elections, including the January election?

Yes. So look, there will be benefit. It will be benefit to the entire industry, including competition if you're talking about the union elections or the central elections. The state election depends really on the state, but on the union election, really tough to quantify. It depends upon the spending that the various political parties do, but will there be benefit? Answer is yes.

Well, next question is from the line of [ Mehul Pathak ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

Yes. I have two queries. First is that when I was looking at the employee cost to revenue, Digicontent has -- for every INR 1 of employee cost, there is only INR 2 of revenue, which is very, very unusual for a non-asset heavy sort of business. When I look at HT Media, it is almost 4x. What are the comparative benchmarks in the industry for these? In fact, now we are reaching a point in HT Media, where the overall, I'm just saying I don't -- there is no split in my mind on radio, how much is the employee cost and all that. But when I look at the overall employee cost, the print cost -- the print, the newspaper raw material cost is just 25% higher than that. So my assumption is that in the Hindustan Times business, the employee cost and the raw material cost should almost be same or the employee cost is higher? So low level of employee productivity in terms of the ratio, if you see. My second question is, should I wait to hear from you? Or shall I go ahead with my second question?

You go ahead with your questions and then we can talk about it.

Okay. My second question is that from 2018, the shareholders' funds has eroded by about 30%, from INR 2,550, we are down to close to INR 1,799 on March 2023. We are down again another INR 100 crores in the last 2 quarters. At this burn rate, we are only maybe 25 to 30 quarters from burning up all the shareholders' funds. Now while employee costs, I don't see that -- whether it is on the employee cost front or whether it is on the other cost front, the management's behavior is not as if the house is on fire. When we talk to you every quarter, there is a whole degree of optimism that things are coming back and things are looking up. Now internally, is there this urgency to address the erosion of the balance sheet and -- either in terms of, if you're not able to control the revenue, then control the costs one way or the other. Otherwise in 30, 35 quarters, nothing is going to remain there. So I want your perspective on overall internally and within the Board, how you are looking at this problem? And at what point are you going to pull the plug and say that, "Okay, now revenue may not come." So now, let us look at costs, or let us look at sale of nonperforming assets or let us monetize some of the, I would say, unrelated investments that we have in the business. So no, your overall sense and perspective on the balance sheet and in future, what it will look like and when we can see the improvement in the balance sheet will be appreciated.

Thanks, Mehul, for your questions. I'll try and take an attempt at it and then Piyush will probably add to it. So actually, Mehul, if you look at the employee cost levels of our entity, and you can look at consolidated, and you could look at even in HMVL separate versus the pre-COVID days, the maximum correction in costs happen actually across all competitors, if you look at, it has been done by HT Media and HMVL actually, and that is still till date being maintained. So if you'd benchmark versus '19, '20, the savings on this line is still there, while most of our competitors have actually kind of come back to those levels, et cetera. So we've done massive actions on all parts of cost. The challenge, of course, that we have, to some extent, is on the operating leverage we have, especially in the Hindi locations versus some of our competitors. So the extent of monetization that they manage with the copies that operating leverage does settle, which also has some impact on the ratios that we are talking about. So on the cost, whether it is on all the direct cost or the indirect cost is massive actions, which actually we started way back in 2016, and we've been continuously at it. And if you look at it vis-à-vis trends, we've improved. Ratios as a factor of the revenue is not having fully kicked in, but we are hopeful given that advertising volumes are back that we will see better ratios sooner than later. The only element of cost, which has not been fully controlled is actually in commodity rate, which is a larger industry-wide problem that happened last year, led by, of course, the global crisis, which was unprecedented. Coming to the balance sheet position, part of the erosion is a fact of the investments that we had done in the Radio business, post which that medium saw a huge challenge. Even pre-COVID, the MSME crisis was on and then post-COVID, of course, it was the medium, which was most impacted and took some time to recover. That did have an impact on the situation. But thereafter, you would see that in the COVID year also we maintained our cash balances despite this thing. In year 2 also of COVID, there was hardly any shift in cash position. It is in year 3, when the commodity rates widely swung that we kind of had some levels of cash burn. So we've been conservative. We are, of course, also needing to invest in business to the extent, we have to build other verticals, which we will do. But we will -- we are hopeful that the balance sheet position should only improve from here on. Piyush, if you want to add anything...

Yes, Mehul, so let me just take the two parts of your business, first upon the employee cost, where you have a strong view. So let me just -- I mean, just adding on to what Anna said, whichever cut of analysis you want to carry out, you want to benchmark or index that to '19-'20 pre-COVID or you want to index that to competition, we have done a much finer job. We can absolutely -- we can connect offline and we can share all those analysis with you and you can have a look at it. But on the employee cost, you have to understand there'll always be a finality because a basic news gathering system has to be maintained, a basic circulation department has to be maintained, a basic ad sales monetization network has to be maintained so on and so forth. So I would say we've been pretty robust on that. But as they say, can you improve that? Of course, you can improve that. And that's the intent at any given point in time. But I would absolutely with conviction tell you that we've done the best job if you do a peer comparison. Now coming back on to the balance sheet size because the number you quoted was INR 2,500 crores, which was a gross cash number because you'd not netted of the debt number. Now you have to understand in a situation where there is a reasonable market arbitrage, both the numbers will tend to go up. So the right number to watch there would be a net cash number. Now the net cash number has, of course, come down if you look at vis-à-vis a 2016 level, the biggest investment or the single biggest investment has been our investment in the FM radio business, where we first participated in the Phase 3, where the total outlay, as we had put down then, was close to about INR 450 crores and then the acquisition of Radio One, which was another INR 300 crores. So that's basically all the erosion there is. Now apart from that, our net cash level are still north of INR 800 crores. And given the commodity cycle is correcting, the way it is correcting right now, cash is not dwindling. Because what you're doing is extrapolating a deduction of INR 150 crores to INR 200 crores on every year basis, and therefore, coming to a certain thesis. I don't think that is correct because on cash, as you would remember from the earlier call also, we've been reasonably conservative. We've been monetizing assets which are noncore given the correct realities and looking at other ways to engage business. So I don't think our cash numbers are dipping, but in the same breath, we are currently investing in OTTplay, where, as I said, we will be investing for some time to come. So that will, of course, have an impact, and that money will come from the core business. So that's a new impact. But that is not, like in a bit, we will have a INR 300 crore or INR 500 crore play, that slowly and gradually tracking our KPIs. We are on that investment journey. And at some point in time, that business should start churning out cash. I hope I've answered anything. But if you have really more questions, I mean, we can share analysis and we can then discuss our numbers anytime you want to, Mehul.

No, thanks, Piyush, Anna. Appreciate your response. And it is on expected lines that you would do that. My -- as an investor, I see that our house is on fire...

Yes. So Mehul, on that particular bit, let me share a couple of things with you. I totally understand, and let me build on that operating leverage. Now understand the footprint of our business. English business is primarily in Delhi and Bombay, which are the big 2 metros. And as you know, COVID impacted these big businesses very sharply. So if you look at the copy recovery or the ad price recovery, et cetera, et cetera, it's still not fully done. Hence, we have rationalized it through a copy rationalization to the maximum extent we have done. So that has stolen some part of operating leverage out of the business, though through the cost actions we have tried to manage as much as we can. In Hindi Hindustan, really, we were the third player when we did the IPO back in 2011. And in a market where Jagran and Ujala had a dominant position, we've created a niche in ourselves where the business is absolutely profitable. But however, given this COVID, our prices, even in the Hindi markets, are challenging, and hence, we've been working very aggressively on the cost because the pricing is a very tough ball, tough thing to come. As I had guided in the last call that this is now -- in this particular year, we are making a big program to take a stab on pricing, which is exactly what we are doing as we are entering into the season also at this point in time. I hope we'll be able to recover some part of the pricing because the moment you will see pricing coming back into English and Hindi businesses, you will see the margin expansion automatically happening. We are very hopeful. And on cost, we always keep one eye on cost and the second eye on cash. That we can assure you.

The next question is from the line of [ Ranga Prasad ].

Am I audible?

Yes, please. Please go ahead.

At the outset, let me say that I'm extremely disheartened by the results of both HT Media and HMVL. Both HT Media and HMVL have yet again shown extremely disappointing results. When the whole industry was not doing well, we were showing steep losses. Now even when the industry has turnaround and companies such as DB Corp and Jagran have shown extremely good results and are even rewarding shareholders with an interim dividend, we continue to show huge losses. Even on our operating level, our top line, the revenues have not grown and we continue to show steep operating losses even. Added to this, we are showing exceptional item losses of INR 31 crores on account of impairment of intangible assets and INR 30-odd crores towards impairment of interoperative deposits given. [Technical Difficulty] massive losses. My question to management is this, do you honestly -- no, let me finish please.

No, no, your voice -- Mr. [ Ranga Prasad ], the only thing that I'm saying is your voice is coming and not coming. So maybe the signal is not very clear, just be a little closer to the microphone. That's all I'm requesting.

So my question to management is this. In the light of these massive losses quarter-after-quarter, you honestly see the light at the end of the tunnel? After all in the last investor con-call, Piyush had said that we expect to see profitability at the PAT level sooner than later. Do you have any time frame for this to happen?

So Mr. [ Ranga Prasad ] -- yes, yes. So look, because your voice is not very -- coming very clearly, I heard the question, and let me just reiterate, and you can tell me if that is the question. Is there a time line for us to get profitable on the PAT level is basically what you're asking, right?

Right. Yes.

Okay. So Mr. [ Ranga Prasad ], first of all, before I answer that, I totally -- I'm not disregarding your analysis that the operating results could definitely have been better. But as I just diagnosed the results for one of the earlier speakers, because both our competitors have put their results out in the public domain, and you were saying Dainik Bhaskar's result where there's a lot of election revenue sitting, which we don't have because our presence is not there in those markets. But now that we are -- and the other competitor is basically in a ballpark. And as we are entering into the union election from the third quarter onwards, going up to [ quarter ] FY '25, you will see the election revenue coming. So that's point #1. Having said that, could our results have been better? Yes. Now let's diagnose the reasons. I think as I was just speaking to the earlier speaker and I was saying, what we have not been very happy about is the yield performance that we have seen. And when we spoke on the last call, I said, and I repeat again, that we've got a yield program, and we are working very hard to get our yields to a certain index of the pre-COVID yield, but going market by market, that's bit of a challenge. Now that we're approaching the festive season, our hope and desire is that we'll be able to unlock some yield. The moment that happen, you can see that coming straight to the margin. The third point that I made was on the newsprint. Newsprint prices have been coming down for the last 4 quarters. And accordingly, our procurement prices have been coming down. They have started bringing down the weighted average cost of consumption, and you will see that trend continuing secularly for the next foreseeable future. I don't see the commodity cycle going up so that you will see flowing through on to the EBITDA basis. Now coming to your last question, do I have a time line, I don't have a time line. But what I can tell you is, if you extrapolate [Technical Difficulty] with these 2 or 3 3 that I'm telling you, I basically clearly believe that on the quarterly basis, the second half of this year will be much better than the first half of this year because of essentially the same reasons and the union election revenue also flowing in with a marginal cost of newsprint much lower than what it is. On the discretionary cost, we've already taken actions which are supposed to be taken. Now, this is about the Print business because your point was more about the Print business. At the same time, if you look at the segment result on the digital side, we have been consciously investing in the businesses of the future profit pools and OTTplay really is big -- one big venture, which is taking a certain amount of cash and, at this point in time, giving a certain amount of burn on the P&L. Now that will continue for some time. But as far as the other matured businesses of Print and Radio are concerned, I don't think they will, on a stand-alone basis, be giving you an operating loss. Now coming on to that exceptional item or a one-off impairment that you were talking about. Now these are, as my colleague and I explained to the earlier speaker, all our investments in Radio business that we had done in the time when Radio's multiple or the trading multiples of the companies, which we're tracking, was more than 20, 25x earning or at some point -- or some companies were 35x earning, those have been rerated very sharply. Unfortunately, we had made the investments in the Phase 3 government auction and the M&A on Radio One thereafter. And most of those assets are now coming under impairment. So this time also that INR 32 crore number that you see on our consolidated results is primarily the impairment of the investments that we had done in FY '19-'20. I hope I managed to answer your questions, Mr. [ Ranga Prasad ].

Yes. The other one is, see, the assurance of steep losses on the digital front, I'm a little worried that it can get long time to...

Yes. That is the -- on digital front, Mr. [ Ranga Prasad ], is the OTTplay that I just spoke about. It is in an investment phase right now and it will remain in the investment phase for another 3 to 4 quarters as I was just answering the earlier guy. Because at this point in time, we are increasing the subscription base on OTTplay. And we've already tied up with the content providers. There are 20, 22 content providers who are already sitting in our bucket.

But is your view...

Sorry.

But do you see in the foreseeable future [Technical Difficulty] profitable? The kind of investment and losses that you're showing?

Well, Mr. [ Ranga Prasad ], there's a finite time we, as a management, has set out to do this whole stuff. Had we got this indication that this will not be profitable, we would already have pulled the plug. But at this point in time, there are a few very heartening signals that we are getting when we are distributing the products and getting a certain level of renewal done from certain set of customers. Now of course, there's a time line that the customer -- that the management already has set aside. If it doesn't turn profitable, we will have to take a call on this. So current hope and expectation is that OTTplay will be a very profitable business going forward.

Okay. I hope what you're saying comes true, that we will turn profitable in the coming future.

So Mr. [ Prasad ], I appreciate the question, and I respect your thoughts and comments, but that's really the way it is, and thank you for your wishes.

The next question is from the line of [ Mehul Pareek ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

I'm an individual shareholder of HMVL. Can you hear me?

Yes, please. Go ahead.

Yes. Okay. So one of my question is regarding the security deposits liability, which we have been showing for the last 3, 4 years. Prior to that, the figures were very small. And we are taking some of them as write-backs in our income. So what exactly are those security deposits? And why are...

So Mr. [ Pareek ] -- you can hear me, Mr. [ Pareek ]?

Yes, I can hear you clear.

So Mr. [ Pareek ], if you are aware, we've got a line of business called Ad for Equity, in which we take an investment position in a counterparty in lieu of a certain advertising contract that we have. So most of that advertising -- for the advertising contract, the amount that is deposited by the counterparty is security deposit. And some of the write-backs that you are referring to is basically if the contractual liabilities are not fulfilled by the counterparty, there is a write-back, which comes into the shareholders' income.

Okay. So in case the counterparty fulfills its condition, we still don't have to pay the cash. It will go as revenue in our books, but it'll not flow in as cash. That's what -- am I understanding correctly?

They will -- your understanding is partly correct. If the counterparty does fulfill the obligation, there will be part cash and part revenue. So cash also comes because the way the transactions are configured, they are not totally backed by securities, they are partly backed by securities and partly by cash.

Okay. So we do not have to pay back this money? It only goes in the form of advertising revenue?

You're absolutely right.

Okay. Second thing is this OTTplay, the revenue that -- the cost that we are paying to this OTT partners whose platform -- I mean, whose channels we are using, we are making a payment to them. So every quarter that we are paying them is the installment? Or is it like we are paying them lump sum?

Yes. So both the models. There are 2 costs. One is the content cost, which you are referring to. So there are multiple agreements with multiple content providers. There is no lump sum, but there is a structuring on that, whereby either on a monthly basis or on a quarterly basis or on a half yearly basis or on the attainment of certain toll gates that we have to pay certain content fees to the content providers. Now these are separate contracts which our team negotiates with all the content providers, right? And we've got more than 20 of them on board. The second cost, however, is the customer acquisition cost, which is basically the cost of acquiring the customer because we are building up the subscription base at this point in time, which, depending upon which channel that you are acquiring that customer through online channel, offline channel, cable channel, digital channel, OEM channel and so on and so forth, or a feet-on-street channel, depends upon the payout that you have to give to that channel. So there are really 2 costs there. And of course, there is a product and a -- product creation and a product marketing cost, which is already sitting there, but that's more of a corporate nature. These are the 2 real-time costs, which at some point in time, the content costs will remain and the acquisition cost will come down -- has to come down much sharply.

Great. So this, we are taking a full write-off? Or are we capitalizing some portion?

No, no, we are not capitalizing. In a given year, all the costs will hit the P&L.

Okay. And when we are talking about the content, supposing we have -- let's say we tied up with 1 content provider and let's say it's a 4-, 5-year tie up, and when we are paying them, if our subscriber base shoots up, do we have to pay them more or...

No, no. These are not revenue linked at all. These are content fees and negotiated as such.

The next question is from the line of [ Rikin Shah ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question. Mr. [ Rikin Shah ], if this is audible, please introduce yourself and ask your question. Mr. [ Shah ], you are not audible to us. Moving on to the next speaker. The next question is from the line of Aniket Kulkarni. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

Am I audible?

Yes.

I'm Aniket from BMSPL Capital. So I had a couple of questions. So firstly, Print revenue in HT Media presentation, which is shown as INR 324 crores in Q2, but in HMVL earnings, the revenue is given as INR 164 crores. So can you just explain what is the difference between here? I mean, does the Print business include something else? And if you can say what all revenue goes to HMVL and what all comes to the HT Media stand-alone business?

Well -- yes, go ahead, Anna.

So we are -- you are referring to Print overall revenue at INR 324 crores. Print overall for us includes Hindi, HT and [indiscernible] business. So there are 3 business publications. The number that you're referring to is only of Hindi. So in the presentation, we have given Hindi separately and then English separately. And then there is Print separately.

Yes. So the HMVL business is only the Hindi business, if I'm correct?

Yes. Yes.

And the English business is HT and [indiscernible] business.

Okay. Okay. And secondly, so can you give an idea from where the company is buying its pulp from because China pulp prices have rebounded from lows and management is saying you are expecting raw material prices will not materially increase from here. So could you explain that please?

Yes. So Rikin (sic) [ Aniket ], if you go into the newsprint commodity market, you will realize that China really has not been international supplier of newspaper-grade printing paper for the last many, many years, I would say, more than 6, 7 years because right now, the China pulp is being used to produce newsprint and other grade of paper only for the Chinese market. They're not big exporters at this point in time. Most of the imports which is happening in India is happening from the Western Hemisphere. I would say countries like Canada, North America and also a big supplier of newsprint is Russia. So those are the places. And sometimes, of course, South Korea also comes into the market to supply newsprint, but China really is not a player in exporting newsprint at least to India.

The next question is from the line of [ Hari S ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

Am I audible?

Yes, Mr. [ Hari ], please go ahead.

I'm [ Hari ], an individual investor. Like these elections we are talking about, they are a one-off event, and we can't depend on it for the revival of the company. And this commodity costs also go down and up here, and that is not dependable. And the new verticals don't seem to be like big enough to turn the company around because the major revenue is from the Print. And so my question is, is the company looking at buyback since that seems to be the best solution, the way the company is going down the hill? I'm not talking about just our company, but the industry overall also is -- like print media itself is going down the hill. So is the company looking at any buyback since that seems to optimal solution for shareholder returns?

So [ Hari ], there's no proposal of any buyback, which the Board is deliberating at this point in time. And regarding the hypothesis, I would tend to say, I totally agree with your point that elections are a one-off event, and we don't create a company on the basis of that and the commodity cycles can go up and down as well. But the -- really, the point that I was making to one of the earlier callers was, if you look at the results pre-2019, in spite of the multiple commodity cycle and the multiple election cycles that we have seen, the company was reasonably very profitable. The problem that has happened is after the company has come out of this whole COVID cycle, the pricing has been a bit [Technical Difficulty] which we already have a program, FY '24, that is a program that we are trying to execute to. If we get even the 80th or the 90th percentile of that pricing, you will see the profitability come back in a very significant manner back to the Print business. Now of course, pricing is a challenge on our Radio business also. But Radio business, if you just look at the historical financials of Radio segment versus now, we have done a very sharp cost optimization, whereby we've cut the [indiscernible] to size. And now again, pricing is again what we are hoping for in the Radio business, and this festive is really the time from now to December that we'll be working very sharply on that. So if those come back, I don't think this industry is in that bad a shape. Our 10% to 12% EBITDA margins, I think, looks like a sustainable level of margin, which I think from here to foreseeable future can easily be sustained. I hope I've answered your question.

Yes. Yes. And about this Oravel Stays, like what is the percentage of holding we are holding in the company, sir, through HT Media Ventures?

In which company, in HMVL?

No, no. Yes, through HMVL, we are holding some stake in Oravel Stays, right?

Okay. Look, that -- we don't publicly disclose because that -- those things have competitive sensitivity. But suffice to say that we don't take very substantial stake because these are not strategic investments. These are part of our AFE program, which I was explaining to one of the -- one of your colleagues earlier.

The next question is from the line of Ketan Athavale. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

Hello. I'm Ketan from RoboCapital. Just a quick question on Radio side. So regarding the recent TRAI recommendation, which will mandate radio in mobile phones, do you see that being accepted?

Ketan, we've lost you. Can you hear us?

Yes. Hello, hello. Am I audible?

Yes. Yes. Ketan, we've heard the question. So look, I think that's a great question that you've asked. The TRAI recommendation are already with the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting. I think those have a very real likelihood of seeing the light of the day. But as they say, it's not been notified by the ministry. So really, there is no conclusive evidence of that. But I believe if the ministry does indeed notify that, that can be a substantial game changer because from the times when FM radio in a car for passengers during the commute used to be the first medium. And right now, there's a lot of appointed medium in terms of playing through their smartphones, et cetera, et cetera. Once you get that into a mobile phone, that gives another set of audience, which either too we've been missing. So I really hope that the ministry does notify that. And I believe that will give a flip to the entire industry, and therefore, our radio interests as well.

Okay. But in general, what has been the trend about these TRAI recommendations in the past, say, last 5 to 10 years, what have you been observing?

Yes. So if we look at the process which is undertaken, even before the TRAI recommendation, there are multiple set of industry conversations that TRAI does and before TRAI the industry body basically makes their recommendation. So there are 3 or 4 steps before it reaches TRAI. So those 3 for 4 -- the mere fact that it has crossed those 3 or 4 steps, of course, it's taken more than 5 years because some of these recommendations are actually not new recommendations, they are 4- or 5-year-old recommendations. The mere fact that it has reached TRAI gives me a lot of hope and TRAI has further made a recommendation to ministry. It gives me a lot of hope that it's a matter of time before the ministry will accept the recommendation. But obviously, as I said, again, it's not recommended till it's recommended.

Got it. Got it. And regarding...

Participant, sorry to interrupt...

Just one data-keeping question, sir.

Yes, go ahead.

Yes. What was the newsprint consumption rate in HMVL entity? And how much on average do you see it correcting as you mentioned that it will correct going ahead in few quarters?

Yes, I think it will correct another 5% to 10% going ahead -- 5% to 10% from here where it is. And on the exact rate, I would request my colleague, Anna.

Yes, it was around 54,000 for Hindustan.

The next question is from the line of [ Siddharth S ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

I'm [ Siddharth ], I'm an individual investor. I just had one question on the movement in other expenses between Q1 and Q2. I think historically, we've seen a jump. So for example, it was about INR 70 crores last quarter, and it's INR 86 crores this quarter. So what is driving this increase?

Are you referring to HT Media consol results or some other result?

HMVL stand-alone.

Yes. So it is, on a Y-o-Y basis, a INR 2 crore increase.

Yes. And -- but what is driving it Q-on-Q, this other expenses?

What is the...

Quarter-on-quarter...

So hold on. So what's the constituents, what is sitting in this result? So...

Yes. Yes. And I'll just tackle that question. So he is wondering actually quarter-on-quarter results. So Mehul -- sorry...

[ Siddharth ].

[ Siddharth ]. Sorry, [ Siddharth ], so the main reason is -- part of the reason is the fair valuation of equity investment that happens. It happens on a half-yearly basis. Quarter 1 didn't have such a valuation impact. Quarter 2 did have. So that is partly the reason for the increase. Second is the fact that the OTT cost largely fits in this line from all the content and customer acquisition cost that we have been speaking about. And this quarter, on a sequential basis, as marginal increase in the level of events that have happened in the [ 3 ]. These are the main reasons for the cost increase on a sequential basis.

The next question is from the line of [ Mehul Pareek ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

Sorry, I missed one question. Can you hear me?

Yes, [ Mehul ], please go ahead.

Okay. Yes. So I wanted to know that livehindustan.com, which is the digital Hindi website is run by Digicontent or HT Digital Streams. Do we get any revenue from there? Because we had put up some notice regarding revenue share sometime back. So do we really get some revenue because that notice was really a little complicated for me to understand?

Notice for revenue share, sorry?

Yes, between companies that it's advertising revenue share and some notice was put up a few months back.

No, no...

One second. [ Mehul ], we are not [ able ] to figure, which is the notice that you are referring to so we can take this offline. On Times Hindustan, revenue per se, doesn't come to Hindustan. It sits -- as you said it's part of HT Digital Streams. Overall, if there are any sale, which is done as part of combo, like if you go ahead -- gone to the client and you have sold Print And Digital, there is [indiscernible] RPT arrangements, there will be revenue sharing that happens basis on such sales, which are sold together of multi-mediums. Beyond that, there shouldn't be anything, which is -- so everything will be as per RPT arrangements at the [ door ]. We can connect with you offline on the specific notice that you're referring.

So [ Mehul ], yes, Piyush this side, I think that is -- what Anna said, I think is -- look, Live Hindustan is a property of DCL through HTDSL. So no revenue of any properties, which is monetized comes here. It will all be sitting here. But if a customer is taking a combo whereby he is taking a print property and a digital property, then we would have requested a certain related party transaction basis which the revenue will be distributed. But obviously, beyond that there is no revenue which crosses the legal entity boundaries here.

Okay. Okay. Great. So that's like a separate newspaper itself like...

Yes, think of it like that.

The next question is from the line of [ Ashima Khandelwal ]. Please introduce yourself and ask your question.

I'm [ Ashima ], looking to invest in the company. So my question is like you mentioned in the PPT that operating EBITDA for the print business has gone up. It has improved mainly due to newsprint prices. So my question is, by how much has newsprint prices declined?

So [ Ashima ], as we said to one of the earlier callers, on a Y-o-Y basis, we are already seeing prices come down by about 15%. And as we go forward from here on into the next 2 quarters, we already see prices coming down between 5% to 10% in the next 2 quarters.

Thank you all. With this, we come to the end of the Q&A session. If you have any further queries, reach out to the Investor Relations team. Our contact details are given in the investor presentation and are also mentioned on our websites. I now hand over to Piyush for closing remarks.

Thank you, dear friends, for joining our Q2 FY '24 investors call. Really appreciate that. We wish you and your families a very happy Diwali and happy festive season. Thank you so much.