ICG Enterprise Trust PLC (ICGTL.XC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Welcome to ICG Enterprise Trust's half year results for the 6 months to 31st of July 2025. I'm joined today by Oliver Gardey and Colm Walsh, who will discuss our investment performance and activity in more detail over the course of this presentation. The slides along with the accompanying results announcement are available on our website. We will have time for Q&A at the end. [Operator Instructions] With that, Oliver, over to you.

Thanks, Martin, and good afternoon to everyone. We have a lot of newer investors. So we've included here 3 introductory slides. One is explaining our investment strategy, how we aim to deliver long-term growth as well as outlining our dedicated team. So many of you already know the story well. So I won't spend a long time here. However, allow me a quick 60-second refresher, especially for those newer to us. So if you look at the first slide here, the ICG Enterprise Trust, goal and mandate is really to provide our investors with compelling long-term compounding returns, but at the same time in a very resilient manner and taking and try to reduce risk as much as possible within the private equity investment strategy. So how do we do this? We -- first of all, we focus only on mature buyouts. We avoid venture or growth, which have much higher loss ratios and are less compounding over a long term. We only focus on developed markets, North America and Europe. The reason for that is because they are the 2 deepest private equity markets with a strong pipeline of quality managers and deals. So that allows us also to reduce risk. We only focus on mid-market deals, typical company size, we look for as an enterprise value range of about GBP 250 million to GBP 2 billion. They are small by public market standards, but we think it's the right sweet spot for good companies, market-leading companies in niche industries and niche markets and where there is a lot of exit optionality rather than being dependent with mega cap companies, which are very dependent on the IPO cycle. Finally, we also focus on top-tier managers, typically not first-time funds, but managers with a proven track record. And finally, we overlay that with active portfolio construction on the co-investment side. So we're very much focused on resilient companies, companies and sectors where performance is not cyclical or seasonal. So those are kind of our main criteria. And I would call it our slide, our guiding North Star to provide attractive private equity returns without the typical risk you're getting in private equity. Now moving on to the next slide, just to provide some numbers. Whilst H1 NAV per share total return was minus 0.7%. It was, however, driven by a negative foreign currency impact of minus 2%, largely in Q1. Q2 performance was stronger. Our Q2 NAV per share total return was 1.9%. And I think the numbers speak for themselves in the bar charts, you see that our focused investment strategy has very much delivered long-term double-digit returns on an NAV per share total return as well as on the share price total return. Lastly, of our introductory slides, I'd like to spend some time on our team because we're particularly proud that we are the only ones in our peer group with a dedicated investment team entirely focused on the trust. The team is split between the London office and the New York office. We have a team of 7 investment professionals focused on the ICG Enterprise Trust portfolio. The investment committee, which is myself, Colm and Liza, and we have over 60 years of combined experience. In addition to that, we leverage the wider ICG network, and particularly on the -- we benefit a lot from our specialist LP secondaries expertise, where Ryan and Vivien and I have been working closely together over 15 years priorly at Pomona now at ICG over the past 5 years. In addition to that, we invested in our operational support, and we're very excited to welcome our new fully dedicated CFO, Andrew Wolfe who joins us from Brookfield Asset Management and has over 20 years of finance -- 20 years of finance experience. Now let's turn over to our H1 results, and there are 3 key observations to share. Number one, our underlying portfolio companies are performing strongly, and we delivered earnings growth of 15% over the last 12 months. And we're particularly pleased with the resilience of our portfolio companies particularly given the complex and shifting macroeconomic landscape over the past year. Number two, our total proceeds during H1 were GBP 222 million, this is already higher than the total proceeds of the full year of fiscal year '25. And in the short term, we have some additional visibility on additional exits, which Colm will talk about. And lastly, we are exceeding on our aims of increasing our secondaries exposure. We invested GBP 42 million in secondaries investments in the 6 months, which represents over 35% of the total investments we've done in H1. So we are on our way to increase our allocation as we have promised. Moving on to the next slide. Let's talk about our portfolio. Our portfolio is well positioned to continue to deliver long-term returns, by looking at by investment category, the secondaries investments have increased our exposure to that part of the market from 15% at January 2025 to now 17% of our portfolio in July 2025. Our geographical and sector exposure are broadly unchanged over the 6 months, and our largest exposures are in technology, consumer, health care and business services. We think these are very resilient sectors, and they continue to benefit from long-term structural growth trends. What you probably have seen in terms of the change since January are our top 5 companies. In January, this list featured Minimax and Datasite, which we realized during the period, and Colm will talk to more later. The notable risers on this list are Curium Pharma and Circana, which are both great examples of companies we like to invest in. They have established market positions, providing mission-critical services and have a very high-margin business model. And with that, I will now hand over to Colm, who will run through the H1 activity.

Fantastic. Thanks, Oliver, and good afternoon, everyone. So in the next few slides, we're going to take a look at what happened over the last 6 months in the portfolio. Just as a reminder, we break down the investment life cycle into 4 phases. Firstly, the beginning making commitments to funds, then we call for capital or we invest directly into portfolio companies. That's the new investment phase. And then typically between years 4 and 8 in the fund or deal life cycle, that's when our managers get to work start adding value, what we referred to here as the growth phase. And finally, and most importantly, of course, selling the businesses typically to strategic buyers or to other financial buyers. And the cycle repeats. As realizations come in, our cash balance goes up, and we can then redeploy that capital into new commitments and then into new investments. In the last few periods, I think I've said this previously, I'd like to talk about the COGS and the machine. They've turned a little slower. And that's not just for us, that's the entire market, the entire PE industry. And as a result, realizations have been muted. I'm pleased to say, though, that in this 6 months period, ICG Enterprise bucked that trend somewhat with total proceeds in the half year of GBP 222 million, which is already higher than the total proceeds of the full year -- the previous financial year '25. On the commitments and investment front -- sorry, on the commitments and the investments front, whilst the volume this period is broadly in line year-on-year, the number and quality of opportunities we are seeing is growing, and we remain optimistic about the current investment environment. Just moving on to the next slide, which focuses on our new commitments. And during the half year, ICG Enterprise Trust made GBP 108 million worth of new fund commitments, that was spread across 8 funds mostly to a number of our long-standing managers in North America and Europe. Many names you might recognize, likes of TH Lee, New Mountain Capital and Advent, look very long-standing partners. We also added a new manager in the form of Stone Point, where we committed to their Trident X funds. Stone Point is really a good example of kind of manager we like to back. It's got a strong broader relationship with ICG. It's got a very good long-term track record with very low loss ratios. And we believe we'll have the potential over time to offer very significant and very aligned co-investment deal flow. Just going to cover now the largest commitment we made in the period, that was notably a EUR 25 million commitment to ICG Europe IX. And that's ICG's flagship European corporate strategy. It's actually one of the -- we moved over to ICG, ICG became the manager of the vehicle back in 2016. But our relationship with ICG actually precedes that. And this was one of the first strategies, one of the first fund strategies that the Enterprise Trust invested into back in 1989. So it's a very, very long-standing fund relationship. And over that period, the strategy is focused on structured transactions. And we believe these are particularly attractive to -- for our investment strategy because they offer a very attractive risk/reward profile. It's also been a key co-investment partner for us. One of them was Minimax, which was first -- which we first invested into in 2018 and was realized during the period. And as Oliver mentioned, that was actually our largest underlying portfolio company at the end of our -- of the last financial years at 31st of January 2025. You can see on the slide, the core advantages of investing alongside this strategy. I've mentioned on these already strategic alignment and attractive risk/reward profile, a long-standing and proven track record and obviously very importantly for us as well, very good access to co-investment deal flow in the kinds of deals that we like investing in. And Minimax was a very good example of that. So moving on now to our new investments. We deployed GBP 113 million in the period. That was broadly similar to the same period last year. The largest investment was a co-investment alongside ICG's LP secondaries fund, and that was in a deal called Project Domino. You can also see from the slide as well that we made a number of other direct investments into companies. One particular theme was increasing our exposure or reinvesting into some of our proven high performers. So you'll see that we had a large realization from Minimax. We didn't reinvest all of our proceeds, but we have chosen to reinvest into that company, a company we know well and which we believe continues to have the power to generate strong compounded growth. Same is true for Circana European Camping Group. And earlier this year, we increased our -- as you may be aware, we increased our secondaries target weighting to 25% to 30% of the portfolio. We continue to see compelling opportunities in secondaries and hopefully can add to Project Domino. It's a really good example of a diversified secondaries portfolio. It's very closely aligned with our strategy, very similar types of managers, those we have in our primaries program and entirely diversified by sector, geography and underlying company. And it's also a deal where I think where as an investment house, ICG had very strong insights into the performance of a number of those funds. So moving on now to discuss performance in the underlying portfolio. The underlying portfolio companies are continuing to grow both revenue and earnings and recorded EBITDA growth of just over 15% over the last 12 months. The valuation multiples continue to be relatively stable. So an EV/EBITDA multiple of a little under 15.5x and net debt multiple about 4.7x. And we're very comfortable with these valuation metrics, given the performance, they reflect the quality of the underlying portfolio, and when we compare these companies on a case-by-case basis to public markets, we continue to believe that they are typically at quite a significant discount to the nearest quoted companies. So moving on to our portfolio growth. As you can see from the chart, across the half year, portfolio growth on a local currency basis was 2.1%. This was offset by sterling strengthening resulting in a portfolio return on a sterling basis of just over to about 0.1%. The majority of that FX impact was actually experienced in Q1. In fact, if anything, the FX was actually positive for us in Q2. In Q2, that's just the quarter, our NAV per share total return was 1.9%. We often see these short-term impacts from FX. But the thing to notice is when you look over time, the impact of FX in our portfolio tends to even out. So if you look over a 5-, 10-year time horizon, you will see that whilst FX will ebb and flow in particular quarters, it tends to even out over time. Just an example of that, over the last 10 financial years, FX was positive for our NAV in 6 of them, negative for 4. And as over a 10-year time horizon, it had a net mildly positive impact on the portfolio. And just worth noting as well as we've grown that portfolio value at the end of the period was around GBP 1.4 billion. Now moving on to the final phase to exit activity, and I have already mentioned the number you've heard a few times in this presentation, total proceeds in the period totaled GBP 222 million. And as you can see from the graph, that figure already surpasses the whole of the previous financial year and is on par the levels for FY '23 and FY '24. And that was largely driven by realizations from 3 of our top 10 companies as well as secondary sales. So we had Minimax, our largest underlying portfolio company at the 31st of January 2025. It's fully realized. Datasite also fully realized previously our fourth largest company and a significant partial realization from European Camping Group, which was our eighth largest portfolio company. And as I noted earlier, continues to be a company that we are strongly invested in. You can also see another material contribution to our realization rate from the dark teal bars during the period, at least I'm told it's teal. I'm not sure I would have described it that way. So during the period, we executed fourth secondary sale was announced earlier in the year, very much part of our active approach to portfolio management where we sold a portfolio of secondary funds to generate GBP 62 million of total proceeds. I do want to expand just on some of that theme of cash generation. It's been a particular highlight for this half year. I've already mentioned Minimax, Datasite and European Camping Group, high-quality companies that have generated strong returns for us. There are also a number of publicly known exits in the near-term pipeline. These are companies that are still in our top 30 largest companies, but where we can give you visibility on their exits. David Lloyd and Froneri, these deals have both been prominent in the financial press. These will be full realizations, and we expect to get the proceeds from those realizations imminently. Both have delivered strong returns for ICG Enterprise. It's worth noting David Lloyd has been in the portfolio since 2013, but it's actually delivered a very strong IRR return as well as a very strong cash multiple. As to our secondary sale, I'm not going to spend too long here because most of you on this call will have heard the story already. But just to recap, we have a very detailed and granular portfolio monitoring process. We review every fund. And the challenge we always -- we always look at the future performance of those funds and ask ourselves, even if they have delivered strong historical returns, if there's limited future upside, and we are able to get a good price in the secondary market, we will look for opportunities to make those sales to be able to redeploy those proceeds in other and potentially more lucrative opportunities, and we believe that, that optimizes our portfolio performance and therefore, generates additional long-term value for our shareholders. And on the back of the review at the end of last year, we executed a sale of a number of mature primary fund investments. It was a highly competitive process and a very buoyant secondaries market, which enables those positions to get best execution. And I'd say, it was a very well-followed process, and we think achieved a very good outcome. We executed the transaction at a 5.5% discount. And as you will know, that's significantly lower than the implied discount to our NAV from our share price. And therefore, we think that it offers additional validation of the NAV. And as I say, it also helps to optimize our overall performance. And it's a good segue into another slide that we obviously like to discuss and another key validator of our NAV, and that's uplifts on exit, one of the best proof points. In the last 12 months, we've had 40 full exits and they've been realized at a weighted average uplift to carrying value of 15%, and that continues a long-term trend of realizing exits at a premium, which you can see from this chart, and it also crystallized a very strong return to the average of being 3x cost. It demonstrates the quality of our underlying companies. And as I've also mentioned, it's a very strong validator of the NAV. And so with that, I'm going to hand back to Oliver just to conclude the presentation and take you through the final few slides.

Thanks, Colm. So that gives you, hopefully, a flavor of investment activity over the period. But the other 2 components I'd like to think about and talk to you about is allocating our capital, which are in form of dividends and buybacks. So combining both dividends and buybacks, we returned GBP 28 million to shareholders in H1 fiscal year '26. That figure actually rises to GBP 39 million if you include the remainder of the intended dividend for the fiscal year of '26. So buybacks have also been highly accretive. We have bought back 8% of our opening share count since our long-term buyback program commenced in October 2022. And we're with that one of the highest in our peer group, and it's added about 3.3% to NAV per share total return. Turning to the financials and our balance sheet. At 31st of July, we had a total available liquidity of GBP 187 million. That will increase, as you've heard from Colm in terms of our realizations as well as in terms of short term -- where we have visibility on short-term realizations. We have -- our gearing ratio is at 5% and is therefore one of the lowest in the peer group, and we have a low overcommitment ratio of 31%. This all leaves us in a good place going forward, and we believe we're very well positioned to continue to invest in the portfolio, maintain the progressive dividend policy and execute the share buyback program. And let's come to the concluding slide and wrap it all up before we move on to some Q&A. I would like to highlight 3 key takeaways as we look ahead. Number one, as Colm outlined, it has been a very strong period of realizations already this year, and we have visibility of further exits to come. Number two, we are very well positioned in terms of the balance sheet and in terms of portfolio split by geography, sector, vintage and by company. And finally, I think with the strong balance sheet, we are well positioned which means we can capitalize on attractive investment pipeline, such as the secondary investment we did in Project Domino that Colm mentioned earlier as well as we have a pretty good full co-investment pipeline. And with that, over to you, Martin, for some Q&A.

Fantastic. Thanks, Oliver. We now have about 10 minutes or so for Q&A. [Operator Instructions] A few have come in already. So taking them in turn, one to start with the rationale for Stone Point as a new manager, maybe one, Colm for you. It's a U.S.-based manager. And maybe broader than just Stone Point, what is the -- how do we think about new managers, existing managers and the diligence we do around that?

Okay. So I thought it was a very specific question and that it's a broader one. So a great question, though. And maybe I can explain it through the lens of Stone Point, kinds of things we look for. So we're very focused, and you'll have seen from the strategy slide, core parts of our focus is on top-tier managers. And what we mean by that are managers that have successful long-term track records that have a strong playbook and something that -- and a strategy which is repeatable and can continue to generate value. We like managers that have a focus on low loss rates, protecting our capital. And we like managers that have the ability to offer a significant co-investment deal flow. And Stone Point very much ticks all of those boxes. It's got -- in addition to that, it's got a very -- and this is also actually denominator for many of our funds, a very strong relationship with the broader ICG platform. That's really useful to us because it allows us to perform I would say, very proprietary diligence in these firms because we've got so many colleagues who are working with them day in, day out on deals. So we get access to a very, I think, very strong sort of set of institutional knowledge about how they conduct themselves, how they think about risk, what their market reputation is like. I think Stone Point is a very strong track record, particularly in their core sectors, financial services and business services. And we believe as well based on the historical track record that they will be able to offer co-investment deal flow as well. And that, of course, is a 2-way street. There's a very trusted relationship between that manager and with ICG. And that's very helpful to be able to get co-investments.

Great. Thanks, Colm. A few more questions have come in really on secondaries. So Oliver, maybe one for you. Just generally at the minute, how are they pricing? What does good look like for a secondaries investment? Are they continuation vehicles? Maybe you can expand on the 2 strategies that ICG has LP- and GP-led? And just give some color on the market and how they're pricing currently?

Yes. So there's a lot in that question. So let me try to answer it in several ways. So let's start off first. At ICG, we have a GP-led strategy, and we have an LP-led strategy, I hope most investors will be familiar with this. But just to explain it quickly, GP-led secondaries or continuation vehicle is we're a fund manager provides -- takes the company out of the portfolio and puts it into a new continuation vehicle, thereby creating liquidity for the fund and its investors, but continuing to participate and the investors have the choice to participate in the growth in the new vehicle and the new fund. LP-led secondaries are more classic secondary transactions were the secondary buyers buy private equity investors stakes in buyout funds or in other venture growth funds, and that's called LP-led stakes or LP-led secondaries. So we at ICG, believe very strongly that those are 2 fundamentally very different businesses. And that's why we have 2 separate teams. We pioneered that specialization, and we have 2 separate teams, 2 separate funds, one is called ICG Strategic Equity, which is the GP-led strategy and the other one is called ICG LPS standing for LP-led secondaries. Now there -- both funds are doing very well, our top quartile performers and have really utilized the specialization to be picking good funds and the Enterprise Trust is invested in both funds. The LP-led and ICG Enterprise Trust has benefited from a co-investment perspective from both funds. So Curium, for example, which is now in the top 5 company is a co-investment alongside ICG Strategic Equity, the GP-led fund and the recent Project Domino is a co-investment sourced by the LP secondaries team. So those both strategies have generated great co-investment flow for the Enterprise Trust. Let's step back for a moment on what's going on in the market. The momentum in the secondaries market due to the lack of liquidity over the last 3 to 4 years, has been enormous. There is enormous momentum. Just to give you a rough highlight over the last 3 to 4 years, the overall secondaries market has doubled from about GBP 100 billion in size to expected this year, about GBP 200 billion in size. So there's an enormous amount of pipeline deal opportunities but at the same time, investors have realized that, too. And a lot of money has also gone into the market. So pricing has stayed stable, and it is around -- for good quality managers, it's just below the 10% for more of the average type of buyout fund managers is somewhere around the low teens to mid-teens in terms of pricing. That has been pretty stable over the last couple of years and is, in our opinion, kind of a healthy discount. So we think the balance between demand and supply is quite healthy. And we see some great secondary opportunities, and that's why we did Project Domino. But at the same time, if you find the right buyer, you can also take advantage of good pricing for certain funds, which is what we did in the first quarter of this year, where we sold a portion of secondary funds.

Great. Thanks, Oliver. A question has just come in on the exit activity. So specifically, the question is, what do you think is the cause for you bucking the trend of weak realizations in the market in H1? Maybe Oliver, you want to start, and then Colm, feel free to chip in.

Yes. I think the main reason for bucking the trend at the end of the day is that is the quality of the portfolio. We have a very high-quality portfolio of companies, which are kind of in the mid to large cap. So we're not dependent on big IPOs, mega cap. We're not -- our portfolio is not -- it doesn't have a lot of mega cap companies in there. Visma is probably one of the exceptions, Visma and Chewy. But typically, we are very much build up exposure and are focused and concentrated around companies and the kind of market leaders and great businesses and great business industries or sectors enterprise value, GBP 250 million to GBP 2 billion, which is our sweet spot and where we see the sweet spot in terms of liquidity. If you have good companies, you have many exit optionalities such as other private equity financial sponsors buying the company, being part of a buy and build where other companies would like to own the company and strategic investors. And I think the lack of mega cap and being less dependent on the IPO cycle has really helped us in creating exit opportunities in the portfolio.

Yes. And I think I would just echo all of that. I think it really is all about the quality of the companies, as Oliver was saying, some great individual stories, Froneri, I feel Froneri has followed me my entire career. And we first invested in it in 2013. I actually in a previous life and a previous employer did some work for what was then Richmond Foods. It was a very small food producer in Yorkshire. And it's gone on over the last 15 years to become the world's second largest manufacturer of ice cream, and it's done that. I think a really good exemplar of the strength of the private equity model to allow businesses to grow and to compound and add value. And I'd say we've benefited at Enterprise Trust from that growth path since 2013, and it's been an extraordinary journey and a real testament to the quality of the manager we back as well.

Great. Thanks, Oliver. Thanks, Colm. There's 2 more questions building on actually the exit environment. So if we take them both together, question one is, given longer hold periods, are we willing to hold for longer until -- as this person is put until the right return can be obtained? And then if I build on a question 2, just given the changes in the PE market, longer hold periods, as you mentioned, what is your view on the long-term contribution of premiums on exit, will that uplift figure go down, go up, stay the same over the long term? Colm, do you want to take that?

Yes. We actually -- we've got a really good -- I think it's a really good answer to that question through the case study of David Lloyd. The David Lloyd is a business we've held since 2013. Now over that time period, there have been some ups and downs. I mean the most obvious down point was during the COVID pandemic. And I don't know if you recall, but gyms were about the health clubs were more or less the last things to reopen as Britain emerged from the COVID pandemic. So it was an especially challenged time to be operating in that sector. And it performed very well out of the gate from 2013 to 2019, and it might well have been sold but obviously, it was held for longer because of that. So we had a manager, who I think was able to take advantage of the different sort of ebbs and flows of that cycle, and was able to -- and actually held on to the asset for 12 years, much longer than we would have thought. But in the end, we've made a very strong high teens return despite the long holding periods. It's a really good example of this is a strategy where -- you don't -- our managers don't have to sell. Part of the power of the private exit model is the ability to sometimes hold things a little bit longer just to optimize that portfolio performance. And then maybe just to touch on the question about the uplifts. I mean the uplift number is a little bit lower in this period than it has been in previous periods. Some of that is just a function of the types of exit. So typically, we see the biggest premiums when we have more strategic buyers or in particular strategic buyers, but also to some degree financial buyers. Some of the recent exits we've had have been from structured deals where you get a more contractual return and that means there's a lower percentage uplift. So that's -- it's just sometimes a feature of the mix of the different types of exits that we have.

Great. Thanks, Colm. There's a question on portfolio return and EBITDA growth numbers. This question from an analyst is really to bridge the gap. EBITDA growth was pretty strong at 15%, and this analyst acknowledges it is not linear between the 2 numbers. And maybe I should say that the last 12 months EBITDA growth of 15%, and then the last 12 months portfolio return on a local currency basis is 8.4%. So Colm, maybe with you first, can you sort of just explain maybe some of the elements of that bridge from a 15% underlying portfolio growth and then the local currency portfolio return of 8% last 12 months?

Yes. So first of all, in very simple terms, over time, we believe that when you have strong EBITDA growth, you get strong portfolio performance. What you will find, and if you look back at the historical numbers for both our portfolio return. And by the way, one of the few listed private equity vehicles that actually disclosed the portfolio return as well. So we leave ourselves a little bit open to this question. But when you look over a long time period, that transmission mechanism is there. But it doesn't always translate a -- it doesn't translate perfectly in particular years or half year periods. There are various different sources of disconnect. So for example, many managers hold new investments at cost for the first year. So even though -- even if there is a strong EBITDA performance, that is not reflected in the valuation. There's also different impacts on valuation that come from how companies are -- how their capital structures work. So companies higher leverage, higher EBITDA, so EBITDA will lead to higher -- all else equal higher portfolio growth. And there's also timing as well. When you see our top 30, it includes investments that haven't necessarily been in the portfolio for the whole year. So I could spend ages going on about all the different disconnects. Suffice it to say though that when you look over time, we would expect those high EBITDA growth to translate into commensurately high portfolio growth. It's worth noting, as I say, we have some years where it's the other way around, where you have higher NAV growth -- sorry, higher portfolio growth than you had EBITDA growth, for example, in 2021. So really, it's just one of those anomalies that you will find in the way things are -- the way the reporting works.

Great. Colm. There's one final question I see on the robust balance sheet point you mentioned, Oliver. So you mentioned our gearing ratio of 5% and an overcommitment ratio of 31%. And the question really is, is there a range that we're happy with, what sort of ratios would be considered too high? Any color you can share would be helpful.

Yes. I do think, as you can compare it to our peers, I think the whole peer group is healthy. And I don't think that the other -- where the peers -- where the ranges are, is an unhealthy industry or unhealthy range. However, we do feel pretty good about having -- being on the more robust end of it, particularly as we're going into a phase where we think they are going to be continuing some interesting investment opportunities, particularly on the secondaries and the co-investments. So we appreciate having a very robust balance sheet and having good solid firepower to consistently and invest over the years and over vintages. So I don't -- I think we're in a good, great place. Can we use a little bit more in terms of leverage or be in the range? Absolutely, as you see, our peer group is very healthy in that range. However, we're very happy where we are right now, and we're trying to continue to be around the kind of 30% overcommitment ratio. And I think that's a good place to be.

Great. Thanks, Oliver. Thanks, Colm. I see no further questions online. If there are any follow-up questions after this webinar, please feel free to contact the e-mail address that you see on your screens. As a reminder, recording of this event will be available on our website in the coming days. With that, Oliver, Colm, thank you very much, and thank you all for joining today.

Thank you, everyone.

Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye.