ING Bank Slaski S.A. (6GF.SG) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. Welcome to our conference. Today, we would like to announce our new strategy. And this strategy will be presented by Michal Boleslawski, the President of the Board of ING; Bozena Graczyk, the deputy responsible for Finance, CFO; [indiscernible], who is responsible for Private Banking and investments; and the Board, Marcin Gizycki, who is the Deputy President responsible for Business Banking, Marcin Gizycki Retail Banking; [indiscernible] wholesale banking; [indiscernible], responsible for operations; Joanna Erdman, responsible for risk; and [indiscernible] which [ IT ]. Okay. Michal to you, please.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Before we tell you where we are going to be in 10 years' time, we have prepared a longer time frame than what is usually presented. I'd like to draw your attention to what has happened so far in the development of our bank of ING in Poland. We are part of the ING Group, which is currently present in 33 countries of the world. It services over 40 million customers. We're the third biggest bank of the group, we have evolved with time, we have become the third biggest bank. So we're part of a very big body that services enterprises, companies, persons and private customers all over the world. The bank at this point has about 4.7 million retail customers and about 600,000 -- nearly 600,000 corporate clients, including wholesale. We are right now a recognized brand, we're the second, according to the surveys, the second best known banking brand. We are a bank that also -- what we're showing here is 2001, that was when ING Bank and Bank Slaski merged. And since then, we have had an 11-fold growth in terms of loans and deposits. And we have exceeded the figure of PLN 400 billion. We're a bank that has an 11% share in loans and a 10% share in deposit at this point when we sum up the retail and corporate. Now regarding the changes that have taken in -- during those 10 years, please look at the slide here. Retail banking in loans has grown to 27x over these 25 years. So basically, we have grown by a bank every year and 13x on the side of deposits, ING has always been famous for deposits. And we've always collected them. I don't know if you remember, we used to even have problems because our share in mortgages back in 2006 or 2007 was 2.5%, and everybody was asking us at the time in 2008, why we weren't giving out Swiss franc mortgages. We were encouraged until 2008, but we were resilient to that trend. We never grew very fast. We started growing once the whole market made a zloty transactions. In corporate banking, we are also quite leveled up, a very dynamic growth here. Please look a 9 tenfold growth in loans and deposits alike. Now for NPS and how our customers view it we can see according to the statistics that we can take from 3 different sources, and we extract the average retail, customers rate us very, very well. We are the market leader according to them. Similar for business clients. This is very well distributed to subsegments. And the studies that we have also include [ Revolut ]. We are, however, seeing rated better from the satisfaction -- from the point of view of the satisfaction of micro enterprises, Revolut has already featured in that ranking as a point of reference. We were the first, and let me just remind you to offer some of the solutions. The savings account, for example, ING was the one that implemented it in Poland. We have become a recognizable savings bank from over a decade, we have introduced, pioneered some integrated solutions for the application, responsible app design. We pioneered [indiscernible], which is an Internet gate way for online transactions. So we were the first, which is important to remind. If something gets introduced by one bank, it usually takes 5 to 6 months for others to take it on because they're good in delivering the solutions. But we want to sustain this ambition in the future. Now analyzing the trends and looking at what's happening in the economy and in the society here in Poland, we have developed a refreshed strategy. This is a strategy of continuation, continuity rather than very abrupt changes. You might have noticed the headlines in the news. Whenever we have announced things, we have always developed and implemented them. We are effective in implementing strategic goals, for example, acquiring Goldman, the remaining part of Goldman by ING. And this is what some of us have asked us after the second, third quarter and press conference, whether that was going to take -- it has taken place. We are unable to address your question earlier. But please notice that we have delivered. We have also delivered all the other things that you saw in the previous slides, both in terms of market share, which has gradually been growing on the side of deposits and loans and a number of customers and those are quite conservative figures, I must say, because when we're showing the number of customers, these are customers that are actually banking with us, not just dormant with -- but have had an account for a while. Now we have created the message that I wanted to share with you. That's our motto, ING in the beat of life. Why have we used the world life and beat? Well, this is because we believe that we're part of this economy. We're part of this society, and we need to reflect in our strategy, all the changes that are happening and that apply to us all. And we will be talking about these changes. We will be communicating our vision to you, and we will be showing you trends that we believe will impact our development and our activity. We need to be very vibrant. We believe we need to be part of the society, of the country, of Europe, and we need to, to some extent, shape the economic development and social development of our country and well integrated with our strategy. And we believe that as a large financial institution, we have a specific responsibility, a social responsibility that is linked to the fact that we will not be looking peacefully at things -- bad things happening to the society or to the environment. We will react instead. We have split this presentation to 4 segments. One of them is about people, demographics. Another one about generations and lifestyles. The third one is about the economy and the fourth one is about the technology. I will sit down now. If you allow me, we will be sharing the remote control with my colleagues, I will show the first part, and I will put some questions on the table for my colleagues to pick up to tell you about how our bank will react to the changing phenomenon. So demographics to begin with.

As you know, the childbirth ratio in Poland has dropped to 1.1. This is an alarming level, which means that if we think about it, we are actually facing a giant problem that's going to apply going to be relevant for of us, there could be a real avalanche of right now or in a decade that are -- of events that's going to be -- that are going to be difficult to handle. This is a global tendency, however, if you think that this gap can be filled by immigrants, well, please look at how the map of the world has changed over the last 40 or 65 years that we have demonstrated. The blue countries that are marked with blue are the countries where the child birth rate has dropped below 2. It used to be orange or red in the past. Please also look at Africa. It also very rapidly changes -- is changing. So the depopulation is also affecting this continent. Lately, India has dropped below 2. So in general terms, we are looking at a trend that is faster than anyone has expected statistically in the world, the generations are not being replaced because statistically, that takes 2.2 in order to replace the existing generation. Poland went in 2100 will probably drop to 90 million inhabitants. Our society is aging. You can hear the example of the 80s and what's happening right now. On the right-hand side, please notice how quickly the number of people who are 80 or older is growing and how few children there are at the bottom of the pyramid and how many children who used to have during the demographic boom when I used to go to school, I remember afternoon classes I don't think anyone -- but it remembers having to go -- to send their children to school in the afternoon. This seems like an urban legend that never really happened. But this was the case. Schools were super full and now they're becoming empty. Now in 2025 to 2035, there will be over 2 million employees who will be gone. They will either retire or they will stop working. We will have to face the void that will have to be filled up if we want to continue growing on the level that we have right now. The statistics are quite scary. Please look at the average pensioner. In 1980, you had 5 people working for an average pension, right now, well, I don't need to comment, right? There's a lot fewer people. And in 2050, there'll be a 1:1 ratio almost. So in general terms, well, there will be problems with the social benefit system that are linked to the depopulation and decrease in the number of people. But we're getting richer. Our purchasing power since we entered the EU has grown by over 160%. The society is becoming more and more affluent. It is being estimated that the number of millionaires in terms of dollars up to 2030 will triple and reach almost 260,000 people. This is also linked to the decision that we have taken to purchase, to acquire Goldman and to enter into the investment market quite widely because this is a product that we will be offering to this group of people. Eva will talk more about this. So what is the bank intending to do about these trends? How is the bank going to address them. Eva and 3 of my colleagues from the Board will tell you more about it. So let me give the floor over to Marcin.

All right. So how are we going to address the trends that Michal has mentioned? This is our historical time line over the last decade, how our client base has grown, and the bottom shows the net growth that's about 100,000 customers, 100,000 a year and the growth of number of customers was over 300,000. There's going to be fewer and fewer customers on the market available. We will be changing our strategy. So we will want to increase the acquisition from 300 to 350, 380. But we will want to quite strongly look after the client base and to cater for them to make sure that we will have fewer departures. It's about 150,000, 200,000 right now per year that leaves the bank for different reasons. We want to reduce this number to 150. It will be great if it was just 100. And definitely, we will want to limit the client, the churn. We will want to have more and more customers using more and more of our services because it increases customer loyalty. Another important element of our strategy, those are pensions and investments, that's especially true for my segment, so the mass market. And right now, our market share in the investment is about 6%. We would like it to double, we would like to exceed 1 million customers with a pension product. I think you can see the marketing activity that we have now. We have the cartoon character, [indiscernible] and some other commercials. We are looking at this as part of our social responsibility. So we want to be a bank that's associated with savings. It should talk about it. It should mention it, it should educate about savings. It is a massive impact on the quality of life of our customers and it's a preview of their pension life. Okay. And the figure that Marcin has already mentioned the million of clients that are investing, I want to underline this, I want to stress that investment will be more and more common, and we'll be practiced by younger people who are increasingly demanding in terms of investments. We want to grow by threefold. So from 350,000, we want to grow to at least 1 million customers that will invest with ING. What is it that we need for that to happen? We need 1 integrated platform because customers want convenience and transparency in how they are investing their money. So 1 platform would be [ My ING ], where we have everyday banking and everything that the customers need. So this will be a module used for funds and the brokerage office. And we need this platform to have all the products that the customers are expecting in 1 place and that we should be delivering in 1 place. So access to renowned Polish and foreign funds, including ING funds that we will be offering very soon, access to all the [ ECA and ECZA ] accounts for the brokerage house and to the stock exchange Poland and Polish and Global. That's our intention for investment. Now regarding the corporate customers, we have a total of almost of 589,000 and we're quite ambitious. Of course, there is some similarity between retail, mass and small companies. So working on transactions and to reduce the churn, we have another big trend that we are going to react to and build a solution to. Smaller customers, they quite often seek information about how to open a company. They don't look at this -- for this information at the branch of the bank, luckily, those times are gone. We are building and developing a completely new ecosystem of supporting future entrepreneurs and young entrepreneurs, especially the smaller entrepreneurs. So starting with developing I think we're the only bank right now that is developing -- feel my love a portal supporting future entrepreneurs and getting knowledge of how to create a company, how to get inspired, how to conduct studies, what forms of taxations use, et cetera. We have added just a week ago, we added the best in the country application that is -- that has intuitive assistance and is integrated with the Central Business register. And we are granting support for new and future entrepreneurs. We are quite intensely entering the channel that we were never present at. So search engines comparative websites. This will all lead to the fact that over the next decade, we will increase the number of companies by 40% to about 800,000 companies. For SMEs, this model with an adviser integrated is going to still be available. This is, I think, going to be a dominating model for a long time, but all the trends that I've mentioned are applicable mostly for smaller companies and future entrepreneurs. In the wholesale area, we do realize and appreciate the Society of public response to the tendencies we've been describing. And in our strategy, we see 3 particular areas where there is a growing demand vis-a-vis the megatrends that the society sees. Health care, the first megatrend and the quality health care, medicine production, distribution, access, prevention, diagnostics and hospital stays. And we see that companies present on the market are more actively involved than ever, but also new players emerge and we want to support and finance with expansion and actively acquired such new clients' accounts. Given the growing rate of prosperity in the society, we see more interest to see the world, and there are expanding airplane fleets to cater to the new increasing demand for tourist services. And there is also need to run settlements of all tourist transactions. And here, we are engaging very actively to acquiring new accounts, new clients in this area. And the third thing about demographics we see the new demand for employers and the new challenges, automation and digitization of logistic processes as illustrated on the screen, but also more widely, more broadly, automation, digitization of other operations, and we would like to acquire new clients also in this respect. All the 3 areas are very much in the focus of our attention. But what is important for us is to remain active. We focus on the new onboarding integrated acquisition process deriving experience from the existing sectors, exchange of experiences with international companies and tapping on ING international experience and the process that we have tapped allowed us to access 100 new clients within the last year's time. So this will allow us to increase the revenue on new clients from 5% to 10% by 2035. Apologies, a few words about private banking. Just to give you the full picture of all the market segments. We are a new tier but that has been set up as a set aside tier this year, but we've been active in private banking before. We want to be the bank of choice in private banking, and we want to triple the volume of private banking clients in the nearest time. What I was describing to you, talking about the platform and products very much applies to private banking clients as well because private banking clients are very much the same clients with similar expectations and they want to have access 24/7 to My ING, Moje and [indiscernible] to have full array of products available. And here, we decided to focus more on the relation-based model where advisers build relationships and stay with the clients for years to come. This is also about banking for families. If we look at the Polish economy for the last 35 years, many new family businesses was set up and the lion's share in the Polish company, 80,000 new family businesses will be confronted with problem of succession will need to consider who is going to inherit their wealth, their assets their experience. And we want to be of assistance in this respect and make families alert to the existing problem of succession in family businesses. That's why we will take care of family foundations, which will allow to provide investments and provide full succession without partitioning of the existing family assets.

Thank you Eva. So in a nutshell, the first part of the presentation, which is about our clients. We intend, as you can see, to obtain 7.5 clients by 2035, both in retail and corporate tier. We want to come up with full pension of in view of the aging society. And we want to have new investments in excess of 12%, which will be obviously supported by the acquisition effort that we have just announced and will be coming back on 4 occasions during today's presentation to the slide. So that you know in which direction we want to go and expand and how we define ING in the beat of life. Now the second segment of our presentation. Generation and lifestyle changes. Much has been happening in this respect so far we have on the marketplace, 5 generations, including Alpha that are not yet off age. And these are the areas where we will need to adjust to particular customer needs, clients' needs. Here, we briefly defined the typical features of each of the generation. Some people believe that people change as they are more and more mature. And some people believe that people stay as they were. And we want to cater to both models of aging corrugating nature. So we want to respond to the requirements of the Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Gen Z, mind you, has started the labor market already, and they are on the marketplace. And for a certain trends that in spite of demographics, will make us particularly well destined to offer products, the products that next speakers are going to describe to you, 34% of people in Poland live in the housing stock that is densely populated, so to say, we are not as densely populated as other countries, but we still need more housing stock. It will change in time. But at this stage, 1/3 of the existing housing stock is overpopulated. The blocks of flats, 20% of housing stock is blocks of flats which offers accommodation to 30% of people. And the life cycle for a blocks of apartments was designed for 40 years. Then it was renewed for another 40 years, but they will move away from the market. They will disappear from the market and people will look for new forms of accommodation and of living. And in 2013, the first blocks of flats built in 1940 and 1950 will age and they will be beyond their secure usability, and they will be not living worthy. Then a single down more than 14% of Polish people live in single households, which is very unlike the low -- the highest statistics in the United Kingdom, Denmark France. But certainly, we will not seeing much of cohabitation by home multigenerational families in Poland, any longer. There will be singles living in single households. And of course, social relations do change. We spend more and more time online. Look at the evolution, 6.5 hours statistically per day is our online activity using a mobile, a tablet. So when we wake up, this is one of the dominating features of daily activity. Kids have been equipped with mobile. We are not evaluating these practices and 80% they are not yet 10 years old to be provided with a mobile. This is simply the fact of life. And the time spent on the phones is in excess of 4 hours per kid and 6 minutes just to learn online, just for comparison. So this is what is already happening and will be happening in the future and this is not only impacting on what we are going to do in our bank to accommodate the situation, but this is also more broadly about what is to be expected. And my colleagues will tell you more about it. Marcin is the first on the list.

Yes. All right. So it all stands with our brand. Our brand is strong, as you have heard, and we hope it will remain strong or even stronger. We want to use the existing client base and the confidence and trust they have in us. And this way, we want to educate and generate new generations of our clients. And there are many people in our client base that are active opening up new accounts for their children. And blocks financial education and all other instruments, which help us to educate our clients about the philosophy and financial habits that are developed are also very important saving for the future. This is something we want to support with the whole strength of our brand. We want to tap this opportunity because we do believe it will translate into our high-end growth and acquisition and the future power is very much before our eyes. We want to be a leading brand on the Polish market in 10 years' time. As for customer client satisfaction, it has been mentioned already, we are #1 amongst the bigger banks and we want to retain this leading position and even improve our performance. So our target is to be 30% or 40% better the #2 in the community of Polish banks. And we look at the new players coming into the market. So we are not only comparing ourselves against our peers but also among new arrivals and we want to improve our standing also in that respect. How to do that? Acquisition growth, it's been mentioned already. Applications, they were briefly mentioned already. And we also want to top our brick and mortar presence and our expert knowledge in many, many areas. Something we want to share with our clients and also something about which we want to educate our clients also in our brick-and-mortar branches. And what is most difficult to be copied is the design of our in-house processes, digital and not digital. This is very important, and this is well appreciated by our clients as illustrated in our results, and we do hope to move along this line in the future. This is our ratings in Google Play and App Store. So we are best-performing brand, one of the best-performing brands in Poland, in Europe and worldwide. Our app will -- mobile app will be constantly developing enriched with new functionalities, but it will be an evolutionary model and also we'll look at the new personalized features of applications so that it responds as well to the needs of alpha Gen Z, parents, affluent, the elderly and by the very nature of things, even if this is going to be 1 single application for all, it will be highly personalized and customized to the need. It will be frictionless, -- so you will listen about the frictionlessness on many occasions today. And this is going to be designed so well so as to secure seamless transition without any too much time for thinking, stopping and considering what to do next. So this is certainly going to be one of our advantages, our strengths. Those processes will be frictionless, will be seamless. And what is going to be a common denominator for generations will be a conversation interface. So we'll be able to talk to our applications in order to caters to the needs of most very literate online and those who need more intuitive devices. So speech recognition and what we know from other companies will be also tapped in the decade or so in ING. And this is definitely the direction we want to go. I think you recognize those logos very well. The common denominator for those companies is that very distributing a subscribers model and versus what ING wants to do in the future. It is not yet to be revealed that will be a dedicated press conference on the subject in Q1 next year to discuss this, but will be also developing on the subscriber space, and this has proven the best for other companies we want to follow to suit. Among business corporate clients, there are 2 things we want to do in the nearest future, and this is derived from a consideration that there is not much such a big difference between retail client and small business clients like companies owned by 1 person and operated by 1 person. And here, expectations and the desirability of simplicity is very much the same for individuals and for SMEs. The first change, democratization of online banking for SMEs. So a dedicated channel of support to SMEs 100% remote based on expert knowledge, human operated but not requiring from anyone to go to a brick-and-mortar branch to meet an expert. All the research and all the pulse of public opinion shows that SMEs feel, love high and dry. If they need to take an out-of-the-box decision concerning their business and they need to travel fast for expertise. So remote sessions, audio/video chat sessions that are tested this year with 100 experts, experienced advisers who have been with us for years, will help you to contact us, without traveling to our physically existing brands. So we have the best of 2 worlds. Digital world and universal around the clock bank, full expert knowledge made available in a very simple and digestible way, as Michal was showing to us. And second, consideration, how individual clients make their purchasing decisions. This is more frequently a marketplace formula. So we like to be in closed ecosystems. It's faster, more predictable, easier more competitive. And we thought that the same could be done with banking, especially for small enterprises and entrepreneurs. So in the coming quarters and years, we will be creating a brand of a bank, we're an entrepreneur and a small company will find everything almost everything to run their business. So from the point of view of a small business, we will make their lives easier. For entrepreneurs, we will make access easier to all the basic and extended instruments that entrepreneur and the small companies need to have access to since the moment they start considering doing business and creating business. It will be launched fully very soon.

All right. Well, going back to mortgages. Regarding the historic data, you can see how over the last decade, we have been growing and nothing is changing here. We want to continue growing and even more. So we assume that today's volume of mortgages will be at least 2.5x bigger than it has been so far. We believe that we can acquire this for a while, we have been creating a mortgage and [ easy IPO ] project. This is visible on both sides, on the side of the bank, we can automate most of our processes to be resilient in terms of growing volumes, but also from the point of view of the customers we want them to be able to freely fill in the application and to get a mortgage online. If they want to, if they so wish, the access to a bank's expert is still granted, but we do believe that we will be able to create such a process and that it will bring about the best customer experience. We believe that customers in Poland are at a stage where they are able to fill in such an application digitally online and take it to the very end. Another important element of our strategy are cash loans, consumer credits, whatever we call them. We're at the level of a 5% market share at the moment. We are building the market share gradually. But we do believe that the time has come for us to take a natural market share, which is about 8% market share. We are assuming that our customers are using these products, sometimes they go to the competitors. So they want to persuade them to come back. And we will perhaps be trying to be more open to new customers with such products. We are creating a new process for incoming customers that are starting their relationship with our bank through such products. We want to refresh our offer of credit cards so that our customers are more willing to use them. We have a full portfolio of cards. We want this to be scaled up right now. Ladies and gentlemen, in the area of risk, of course, this strategy is derives from our ambitious development plans and growth lines. And it stands for transformation. It's not a revolution, but it's a transformation. We want and we will be developing a scalable risk, simplifying risk, automate it. And one that's capable of effectively supporting ambitious development plans of our business lines. What does that stand for? First of all, effectiveness. We want to have very well working processes that are based on reliable data and modern tools. We will be simplifying, automating and configuring these processes so that everywhere we work, especially wherever we are exposed to a customer, for example, [ Easy IPO ] so that our processes are practically unrecognized or unnoticed by the customers. We want to shorten the decision time and scale up our business model. Now the regulatory compliance, regulatory and control environment, well, perhaps will refrain from commenting on that. That's the domain or responsible of the risk division, and that's a natural and inherent responsibility but according to the ambitious development or goals, we want in this control environment to also be automated and simplified to the biggest possible extent and to -- for it to support ambitious growth. Our tools, and I'm here referring precisely to models, we'll be very strongly linked to the client's portfolio to the life cycle and the relationship of the bank and the client. The models are inscribed in the whole relationship. We're talking about KYC onboarding processes, we're talking about complaints post-market processes, but also capital models. And our simple models such as consumer lending will be simplified in terms of their models, but the more demanding portfolios such as SMEs or wholesale banking area, we will perhaps be using the capital methods in such a way as to optimize it and free the capital to the support of our ambitious growth. And our team competencies of the future support for business. This is something that we will be growing here, new skills, new competencies by learning and supporting new product. We have spoken a lot about the investment area. We will be also talking about our ambitions in the Wholesale Banking. Michal has mentioned that support to the energy transformation financing defense or infrastructure projects. We will be required a demanding but a strong support for business. Ladies and gentlemen, in our strategy, we want to further develop the scalable operational model. This will allow us to service the dynamically growing business without a significant growth in costs. This, of course, will mean that our effectiveness will grow significantly. We are forecasting that up to 35% the sum of our deposits and loans will increase by 4%. And this will, of course, be possible, thanks to automation and the adoption of new technologies. The fast-growing digitization of banking services will impact the changing model of our operations. The vision of 2034 includes an organization that's mostly based on technology, data and AI. This is an organization where people will be cooperating with intelligent systems, this is an organization with expert knowledge will be invested in designing processes, developing operational platforms, tools, this -- these are operations where part of the manual operations will be dedicated to large transactions, will be dedicated to specific complicated complex solutions that we will be offering to our customers. And still, we will be ensuring unchanged security and compliance with regulatory requirements. This is our first defense line operations. And what's most important, we will be ensuring customer satisfaction. And we will be creating the best possible customer experience in custom -- cooperation with the bank. The impact of operations is huge because mostly it's on the operational level that we interact with customers. The customers are mostly inside. The app always service the processes that are partially operational in nature. I wanted to stress that this will be an evolution. We are here already on this route, and we have been for a while. And currently, the level of process automation in our bank is 80% measured by the STP Index. This means the level of operations that are initiated by ING business and then fully automated without human participation. This is already a very good outcome, but we are aspiring for it to be further improved and to further increase the automation of our processes because this is what our customers are expecting, this is due to the operational trends. The trends in the labor market, we know that the availability of resources is going to diminish and the availability of services provided by people is also going to be reduced. The STP index comprises several dozens of key processes. We are selecting the 2 key groups of processes that are important from the point of view of our strategy. Onboarding, new customer acquisition, loans these are the current data. We aspire obviously to improve the automation levels. You can see a significant change in mortgages and the project that we conduct together with business and risk to automate mortgages, we are actually expecting an 80% level of automation in loan granting decision-making process. These are sales processes, entrepreneurs and companies -- well, we have presenting here information about launch of loans, so a certain level of service. So what's important is evolution, not revolution. We're on the throat here, we're automating and we have been automating these processes for years. We will be automating that further. We will use the potential of technology and AI. And I think that's quite obvious. So summing up this block we are planning to grow in mortgages by 2.5 -- twofold, 2.5. We want to reach 8% share in cash loans, consumption loans, we want to introduce a subscription model that will create a loyalty to the bank. Based on the services that will be available, we will be creating the marketplace. We will be developing mobile banking further using voice as one of the elements that will link the youngest and the eldest users. We want to be the leader of PSA. We want to further automate the processes leaving -- leading to 95% of automation. We want to use voice bots and chatbots in such a way so as to facilitate the customer experience and respond to the changing needs of the world. And all of that will be based on a safe attitude to risk that [ Asha ] has spoken about, modern finances scalable operational model. At the bottom of the slide, you can see these blocks in blue. We call them enablers and those -- the starting point for these points in orange to be possible to implement. Now let me say a few words about the economy. This is a map of the global supply chains or trade tendencies in 2000. The light blue was the domination of bright blue of the EU throughout the world that I'm sure we all recall. This is what the map looks like right now. So there's a deglobalization. And this is what we're going to face. The EU has, in fact, withdrawn from the majority of areas where we used to be leaders, the yellow is China. At the same time, we're seeing an over regulation in the economy, which is due to various reasons. And a few examples here. In the EU over the last few years, we have had 13,000 regulations created. And at the same time, in the U.S., just over 5,000 that have mostly dealt with the functioning of businesses and enterprises. On the pharmaceutical market, that's another example, the EU has banned 2,537 various substances. They cannot be used in cosmetics whereas in the U.S., there is a total of 11. Now if you look at the competitiveness of the Polish economy, this graph is also present for most European countries. Between 2015 and 2025, the competitiveness has decreased significantly. At the same time, Poland is facing huge opportunities due to the energy transformation. As you are quite aware, the Polish government is planning to spend over PLN 1 billion -- so PLN 1.1 billion, actually, PLN 1.1 billion on power plants. This is a very big driver for the economy in terms of modernizing the whole ecosystem. We will be building airports. This is apparently the amount that's going to be spent on the central airport. We will be joining these airports to the modern railway hub. These are further billions that are going to be spent on infrastructure. At the same time, we are increasing our defense systems going to spend almost PLN 2 trillion on defense. And those are all huge opportunities that banks such as ours are looking up to. And let's hear from Michal [indiscernible] for a few words of comment.

As Michal has said, Polish economy is facing some mega trends and is in the process of transformation. In our strategy, we are focusing on 4 areas that we want to have a strategic participation. We are using both our existing knowledge and our balance sheet of ING but also the experience of ING from different countries that perhaps were earlier on the transformation route than we are here in Poland. And the first key area is energy transformation facing the climate challenges, but also what needs to be looked at, a low effectiveness of the Polish economy when it comes to energy consumption and the use of energy. We are now showing you examples of companies that we are cooperating with effectively and financing some projects in the area of renewable energy. We're planning to base on these experiences for projects that we know are being planned for the upcoming years, but it's also worth looking at the fact that we are getting prepared to finance first energy projects based on the nuclear technology. Logistics is another area that we want to look at both physical infrastructure, such as airports or ports, harbors. But also technological infrastructure, such as broadband or data centers, fiber optics and other infrastructures built by big players. These are projects that have been put in practice over the last 12 months, but also a basis for us to prepare to have some projects cofinance that are going to be rolled out in the upcoming years. The next key area is, of course, the defense transformation. The first area that has been launched is financing acquisitions on the large scale. So procurement of army development on international markets. These are projects that are being coordinated with the Polish official BGK Bank. And we know that new acquisitions are being planned for the upcoming years. But another important pillar that's related to the technological development of our country, that is manufacturing and production, developing Polish armament system by both public or state-owned companies, but also private enterprises that are involved in, for example, manufacturing drones. We are actively involved. We are financing projects in those areas. Unfortunately, we cannot list them all, but we are also preparing to finance projects that we know are being planned for the nearest future. And the plans that we know are being prepared. On the basis of that, we are forecasting that two, that we are going to be able to implement growth in terms of investment loans and loans supporting newly created supply chains and value chains. We can double our loaning and deposit volumes. Very often, the deposit side is a very important component for large investment projects. There is a fourth area that we want to look at. Still, Michal mentioned deglobalization, a certain end of an era of large global economies. But to replace that, we will have new supply chains used by Polish enterprises that are more and more frequently going out to international markets. And we support them and have been supporting them from the expansion in a dozen or so of most recent months to the tune of PLN 13 billion, either for investment or offering and backing up their investments and our ability to support Polish companies expansion is possible, thanks to local presence offered by Bank Slaski, 10% of local presence, our sector-based knowledge. So our end expertise about individual sectors in which customers operate in our international network, which allows us to support our entrepreneurs as we want to roll out and go out to the American market, which is quite an interesting factor in our development and the development of Polish companies. And bearing in mind the internationalization of the Polish economy, we also need to remember that Poland is on the receiving end of investments. Here, we have new companies arriving to the Polish market and expand their presence in Poland. This is more than 60 companies to date. And what is important is that the investment trend, the FDIs in Poland will be a growing tendency. Poland is seen as a strategic market for many players served by ING internationally. So we are ready in our strategy to support the foreign companies tapping the Polish market. We have such relations in 40-ish countries. We have also our sector knowledge and we have our strong international network which will help new arrivals on the Polish market. And what we want to do in corporate tier is that we want to double the volume of transactions in our strategic planning period. And what is conducive is the growth of economy, what is not so conducive is the level of difficulty of investing in private sector. There is a lot of uncertainty. There is lots of overregulation, top Polish entrepreneurs as we are interviewed, say how long investment processes take in Poland as compared to other countries. And this has bearing on business and condition of doing business in Poland. And what we want to do is to rebuild from scratch to paths manual path that is 60% of our volumes lending and semiautomatic path, where we have some 25% of our volumes. And since we have been market leaders on those 2 paths in recent years, we want to shortened and streamlined process to take 5 days for a fully automatic for manual path and today's for semi-automatic path where we are supported by dedicated algorithm. And we want to be able to advise and give tips, enhance some certain actions to be taken. And 2 other areas I was mentioning to you is leasing and factoring. Historically, in leasing, we have been very strong. Leasing to medium and large companies is our strength. But leasing for smaller assets for SMEs is not so well penetrated by ING. So we want to arrive at the new quality and starting from January. Next, we will turn around the process for the existing client base of leasing clients in ING. So we will be leasing on click functionality available. And this will be a new value proposition for the existing client base, and we want to expand on the vendor channel where we are still under represented leasing with service on subscription, which is an increasing chunk in the Polish leasing market. And ING leasing a new brand to be more accessible and simpler so that small and medium and prices associated with leasing engines as well. So we are with strong presence in the large and medium sector and not so strong presence in the small enterprises leasing sector. So we want to be number 3 by 2030 and have fivefold market share growth yet by 2030, very ambitious plan. The bar is very high. And now coming to the factoring side. Here, we are very well placed. We are #3 following mergers with other factoring companies. So we are very close to the second and first position on the market. We are performing very well, equaling the large companies market sector and in SMEs. And we want to even further increase our presence in terms of factoring for small companies. We want to increase it tenfold. I think this is the simplest way to secure financing for SMEs in the nearest future. And it will also help the new startups and we will also change the name. It's not going to be ING Commercial Finance Poland. It will be ING Factoring as of next year. And here, we want to be #1 in factoring by 2030, all across the key categories, the number of clients, the volumes of turnover and we promised with the level we want to be #1 in Poland. Ladies and gentlemen, those goals and the transactions that my colleagues have been describing to you are very well dovetailed with SG strategy. And here, there won't be any revolution to be expected. We will continue with the SG goals as they have been communicated in the integrated bank strategy, both on the side of environmental responsibility and social responsibility. So everything that is defense-related will be also fine-tuned with SG strategy. The first of our SG goals is PLN 5 billion to be earmarked by 2032 support. Energy investments related to renewables. The second goal is more on the social side. And we want to make sure that 1 million of clients save or invest to support their pension income in the future. And the growth on the acquisition area on the mortgage side, we would like to make sure that some 50% of mortgage loans would involve energy-efficient premises and buildings with the demand for primary energy sources below 56-kilowatt hours per year and all other goals will be modified as the situation develops. But the 3 anchors will remain as they are, very much the axis of our strategy. So in a nutshell, about this block of subjects, we want to participate in the Polish transformation and finance it. We want to expand on the leasing and factoring side. And in terms of factoring, we want to be #1. We want to acquire market leadership. And this is all founded on sustainable growth, scalable operations and security of our institution. Let me now tap the fourth block of topics before we summarize everything. Let's focus on technology. The world keeps evolving. As you can see this is Quantum Computing and the acceleration in all processes, the number of users of individual services acquired. Twitter, ChatGPT 100 million hit by ChatGPT of the last 2 months. And you can see that the new solutions are more and more sublime and more human-oriented, 73% of the bold people said that open AI has passed the touring test. So most of us could not say if they was served by a machine or a human being. Because the machine started showing some human instincts in its behavior. If we have quantum computing that has been announced 10 years ago in one of our presentations. And if it is in place, it will be a turnaround and computing power will increase sky high, also the breaking of codes will be a matter of a few minutes. So 5 minutes really. So it will have immense bearing on the functioning of the banking community as the banks go online and there will be a revolution on the marketplace. There will be disappearing professions that we have just removed from the screen right now. And we want to shoulder some of Europe pain as a bank because some of lawyers and general practitioners won't be needed any longer, but there will be new emerging professions. The question is to what extent and to what extent they are going to accompany us, there will be fewer of us. And there will be robotization. We, as the bank, have nothing to do with it but there will be 1 billion of humanoids supporting the aging society by 2050. So this is the vision that will have a positive impact on the societies as we depopulate, age and feel more and more lonely. And on the negative side, 20 to 50 hackers attacks, cyber attacks are recorded in the Polish really to bid in the transmission grid, in the Polish energy sector or any of the walk of life, also in the banking sector. And this is the reality of today. And this given all the increase in computing capacities and processing capacities and growing AI strength. So this is an alarming tendency. How are we as a bank going to shoulder this challenge? [ Alisa and Matt ] will tell you more about it. Ladies and gentlemen, let me start by noting that next of the changes in the systems and the availability of new functionalities to support our technology. We want to carry out 3 transformative processes in the bank to make us future ready in terms of banking technologies. Let me use a certain visual slide to illustrate the magnitude of transformation in store for us. The transformation of our central system, a very backbone of our operations as a bank. Something that determines most of our operations and business models. So the efficient and effective operation of the backbone is a must. Our central system shown as a cube, it all started some 30 years ago. And for many years, the system was surrounded by additional subsystems interconnected with one another and the system is operating based on a very complex and rather costly platform. And the system operates very well, and we supported and sustained it. But looking into the future, we'll need to transform it. Why? In order to be able to handle larger volumes and newer technologies. What we have in place is very much big monolith and the programming languages are obsolete perhaps and are not edge cutting, so to say. And we want to identify individual chunks in the systems such as the general ledger catalog of products and commissions, and we will either migrate them to existing applications or create new applications. So those new chunks will immigrate to new places. And as a result of this, the architecture of the application will be modernized. It will be leaner and more effective, and it will be cloud-based and online available. So we'll decide ourselves where it's going to operate in a data center in cloud provided by an external provider. So this is a revolutionary change. It will have bearing on business, on operations, and it will commit the whole bank. The second revolutionary change transformation that has been ongoing since 2022 is our cloud migration, migration to public cloud. This migration is something that is happening and is well advanced, but we'll need to bring it to the very end to the completion. We want to obtain benefits of operating in the cloud and the operational stack and certain application building capacity will be now transferable and we will be able to decide ourselves where we want to have those applications operating whether a provider or in the data center, the decision will be ours. And we will reduce the size of such functionalities will reduce operational costs and maintenance costs. The third very important transformation is the change of our analytical systems, data systems and data management systems and reporting platforms. Data are at the fuel in our bank and any other bank without actual proven and up-to-date data and data availability, it will be virtually impossible to operate. We have data lake and the central data warehouse. And we want to move away from what we have in data center with all the existing limitations of the data center, and we want to move them to the public cloud and the whole analytical and reporting system is going to be better supported by various analytical tools and cloud-based tools and will employ artificial intelligence more. Frequently, the process has started in the bank many years ago. And Alicia will tell you more about what is to be expected of our cooperation with AI. As a result of all that operational have quicker access to data, better scalability of data and modern tools for data scientists. Over to Alicia, please.

Ladies and gentlemen, artificial intelligence is a broad concept in itself. So let me focus on the 3 particular AI technologies that are most relevant to us. For years, we've been using machine learning for bank, and we are pretty mature on that count. This is the technology, which allows us to perform advanced data analysis on various levels, statistical data, voice processing, image processing and many uses. Here, you have an analysis of real estate, something that we used to monitor mortgage loans, we also have a number of solutions in preventing money laundering, CDD and post transaction monitoring predictive models in monitoring of loan repayments. These are also very advanced areas, the restructuring and the debt collection. But in our business activity, we use machine learning to personalize offers for customers, to personalize marketing communication, operational communication as well. This technology is still -- has still got a lot of potential, even though they're new, a lot better technologies, machine learning recently compared to machine learning. And this technology has broader solutions. And now regarding the implementations in our bank, let me just inform you that we have 3 generative models that are being implemented in our banking processes. And that is the assistant for the complaint service process, which analyzes the content and generates the response for the customers. These are chatbots for business banking for corporate business banking customers. They're intuitive. They are built on generative technology that allows for bigger opportunities and the language of the communication becomes more natural. And the third application is to update the data and the CDD processes. So all of the AML obligatory processes. And that is the beginning. We are working on specific subsequent solutions, and there's going to be an increasing number of those. And let me also mention the agentic AI. This is a technology that we look at because it's a solution that provides a lot of potential for us. It has a lot of potential, and we use applications in our process. Agentic AI is not just individual solutions that we apply to a process, but these are opportunities to automate the entire processes. So in the ING Group that we're part of, there's work going on and experiments going on concerning the use of agentic AI, especially in the loan processes, business banking or corporate segment, and we are going to follow suit. And that's in short what I was going to say. Let's just mention one very important thing without which we couldn't really move forward. Let's remember that whatever happens in the bank, especially from the technological point of view, has to progress in accordance with regulations and the principles of risk management. Our goal is to ensure availability and integration and include cybersecurity and resilience to attacks. We will never cease in our efforts to maintain the bank's security level on an adequate level, and we will be continuing to invest and to improve it because there are changing trends and changing threats and we need to respond to what's happening. Another thing is that we are planning to conduct a lot of tests and simulations that are going to make us more resilient and to show us the areas that need improvement whenever there are some unpredicted situations, emergencies such as attacks, malfunctions. These aspects are very important for us. We also want to continue our efforts in order to be the leader of the availability of our systems. There are quite a lot of them now, and we will definitely be having to ensure that our customers of especially the core system or migration to cloud do not feel that something like that is happening. That's a personal goal of mine. And last but not least, those are actions that are addressed to the bank as the organization, but we are also going to strongly increase our operational excellence and detection of fraud targeted at our customers. This is an important problem for the whole sector. And we have multiple ideas of -- for improvements in this sector on how to counteract the cyber criminality.

Thank you. Okay, to sum up, we have the same slide that we have been showing over and over again. We want all of these growth the development of our institution to be based on safe -- in a safe environment that we can function in. We want to make AI our ally, not an enemy because since humans have invented it, there is no turning back. We want to use AI, both for processes that are going to be automated but also prompts that will allow us to manage better. But all of that is based on data and figures because we are a bank. So before we wrap up this presentation, let me give the floor to our CFO, Bozena Graczyk.

Okay. It is with great pleasure that I would like to present our strategy, sum up our strategy. We developed it for a period of 10 years. We believe that long-term strategy is the level of ambition we want to achieve consistently perhaps in a slightly boring way from an analytical point of view, I need to repeat that, but we are consistent in our drive to reach the goals. The long-term business goals have been presented, but I will repeat them again. And as well, because I know this is something that you're interested in, we want to show our long-term financial ambitions over the next 10 years. What's a brand of ours is a consistency and action being consistent in terms of growth. I think you've seen a lot of evidence to that end, observing us over the last few years. Our favorite indicator that we like to look at is the increased commercial balance we have grown by 2.5x in terms of our loans and deposits. And I believe that the fact that we can consistently deliver growth is a component that makes us stand out in the market, and we want us to remain like that. So starting with our customers, we want to have 7.5 million customers in 10 years. So that's over 40% more than what we have right now. We're assuming that the number of retail customers will grow by 2 million from 4.6 million to 6.6 million in 10 years. We want to triple the number of private banking customers and reached the results on the level of 50,000. In the corporate segment, we are assuming that our client base will grow by 40% from the current 573,000 to over 800,000 in 2035. We have spoken a few times about the fact that the investment and pension area is a key pillar of our strategy. So we want to put very ambitious goals here, we want the number of retail customers that are actively investing to grow threefold over this period from 324,000 to 1 million. Now regarding our market share in investment and pension products, we are planning to at least double it. Currently, it is at the end of 2024, we wanted to be 12% in 10 years. And we believe that the transaction that has been announced today will be a significant pillar to the growth of that sector. Big emphasis on investment does not mean that we want to forget about the growing savings and deposits of our customers. We are assuming that we can double the balance of our deposit in terms of retail and business customers. For investment like Marcin has said, it is the mortgage that's our Chief Strategic product. It is a very important one from the point of view of our customers' goals, but also our strategic goals. Over the next decade, we want to grow by 2.5x from PLN 61 billion that we had towards the end of 2024. So far, our share in consumer loans was 5% -- has been 5% in 2035, we wanted to be 8%. We are also drawing some ambitious goals in our corporate sector. We're assuming that the loan value will grow twofold. And like Marcin said before, we want to also look into lease and factoring services. And now about our financial ambitions. That's some information that you have been able to read in our current report. Perhaps let me start with the return on equity. We are estimating and planning for this indicator to be on the level of about 19%. Our strategic goal is not to improve it because for the recent years, we have been able to prove that this indicator is above the market average, thanks to big profitability but also effectiveness in terms of managing our equity. And we want this to be the case. Still, we do not want growth. We want a return indicator on equity above the market average. Now cost to revenue. This is not the lowest on the market, but that's not a strategic goal. We want this level to be adequate and correspond to the quality and to how we conduct our investments. We want to have a technological advantage when we do business in Poland. But where we want to stand out is a lower long-term risk indicator. And from that point of view, we're making reference to the cost over the last 10 years, which is 60 basis points and is a long-term trend around which our cost of risk are evolving in our balance sheet structure. And while we are communicating this strategy, we have updated our dividend policy. You have been able to read that the goal of our dividend policy is to be able to pay out a dividend on the level up to 75%. As you will know, I'm sure, because we talk about it frequently, it is our goal also to have sufficient equity to grow in accordance with all the regulatory requirements and growth is what we always put ahead of the dividend indicator -- dividend rate, but we want this level to be adequate to our equity capacity long term. We won the quality NPS rate for retail and business. Well, that's our strategic goal. We want, in summary, I want to say that I hope you will be able to observe that we consistently deliver growth, adequate levels of return on equity and that we -- allowing our shareholders to enjoy these outcomes and our workers as well. Thank you.

And that's our definition of the beat of life, how as a bank, we want to be integrated in the changing society and changing economy. And over the next 10 years, we want to accompany you in the development of our country. Thank you very much.

We remain for that credit card is needed to book your hotel to rent a car, you need a card. So that's why we have target client campaigns to expand on card portfolio. I mean since in our client base, the credit card penetration is not big. And there is a massive potential to grow on. We have just hundreds of thousands of clients who have credit cards. And so I will allow you to rest said, but I will ask about pensions and investments. You've been saying that an integrated investment platform is needed and availability of pension investment funds. What is already there and what will be rolled out in the nearest future?

As for savings, our saving and investing with a view of your retirement, we have savings accounts and fund-based accounts. And as of next year, using our brokers office, there will be an additional path for investment for future pensioners.

And investment would taken more broadly, do you want to commit yourself to innovate Poland the most recently announced program?

Well, we will consider that.

And my last question, offer for corporations and companies, you said quite generally, but there will be like one-stop shop full ecosystem. And what's new will appear?

Well, give us some time, we want to not to reveal all the cards as yet, we'll do it step by step. But among the biggest banks, we have the most extensive product ecosystem, you may not see it every day in every day live next to factoring and next to leasing, we have sales terminals, we have Internet gateway. We have fuel cards, and this will be complemented with everything, basically everything that is needed for a small compact company. So if anyone uses it, one will be able to focus on coal business rather than the formalities that need to be satisfied in any company's life. So the time will come, it is very much as with subscriptions that will reveal all the offer.

Good afternoon, [indiscernible] Business Center. Let me just please the CEO and on the one hand, the demographic cake is shrinking, and we will -- we are heading for 30 million population in Poland, but you want to aggressively expand your client base. So do you want to wait and open price war with PKOBP, PKOS or Millennium or Santander because you haven't been clear about it. And the second question is about automation. 95% of your mechanisms are to be automated, right? And you have not yet told us about your internal HR processes, would you like to layoff some of your HR or convert them into engineers? And the third question, a difficult one, but this is the last one. You rely very much in your strategy on major infrastructural investments, government investments and there is a sovereign risk or political risk. If the -- if it comes to the crunches with CPK or with defense spending, how will you secure your existence in the public sector?

Well, let me take the first question. First, remind me and this was -- well, we were trying to connect this and relate this. I mean, there will be decrease in the population of Poland, but it won't be felt that dramatically by 2030. This is not so much about growth of people, but rather limiting of churn, as Marcin was explaining. So we do not expect that we will be winning the price war against PKOBP, PKOS, this is not our goal and not our [ attendant ]. We want to build value add it otherwise. And we will try to pursue policy which will help us to reduce our churn. If you look on the slides that have been attached historically, we were generating 400,000 new clients growth, but churn was consuming a major part of this growth. And this is something we want to turn around. The growth will be also funded on the new premises like the demand for new households and new living space. And the singles don't want to stay on a crowded space that is available right now. They will want to have their own households, more spacious, and we will try to cater to this newly emerging trend. And the second strength over to Alice.

Yes, on automation, STP index that we were showing to you relates to business processes, by key processes, key operational processes. You asked about the HR processes and internal processes. Of course, automation will have bearing on our internal processes as much as risk will.

And in HR and in other departments with an ongoing automation. Does it result in laying off and redundancies?

Well, automation has been proceeding in ING for years. But we are doing the reskilling of our personnel and those who are processing clients requests are now designing new processes, building and designing processes from the operational side. And we, of course, assumes we accelerated absorption of artificial intelligence. It will happen, but we will educate our personnel on AI, we have the global AI track program focused on AI education and literacy. People come up with new ideas and they see it's worthwhile to expand their AI competencies. And AI will support us reduced employment. I was showing you the growing volumes of deposits and loans per full-time equivalent but we are growing. And we reduce FTEs. You know it, and we communicated. There will be natural reductions of jobs knowing which processes are to be automated, but this is a very well balanced process. And I hope that this modus operandi will be adequate and opposite.

Michal, coming to your third question, by way of a paradox, I can see a political consensus in all the 4 areas that I was mentioning energy transformation especially the target pillar of the Polish mix that is nuclear. There is a consensus about it. There are differences as to the ways and means of arriving to the Polish nuclear energy, but there is consensus as to the concept itself. The same goes for defense. And the same goes for modernization of our infrastructure. As for the CPK hub, Central transportation hub, the bone of contention is who was the originator of a project, but this is very much about Polish [ Razon ] debt, and I do not see major differences between various political forces on the Polish political arena to this. And also, financing new supply chains. Again, there is a consensus on this project, the Polish economy will be of crucial importance in the transformation of global supply chains. And also, if we loan, If we lend money, we know to whom we want to lend and how the bank will -- how the borrower is going to repay to us and the human factor that is our own employees, our own personnel. Well, we spent a lot of time on coming up with a value offered to our employees so that they come to your face and become more resilient and also psychological aspects of our functioning as a banking community. But tomorrow in [ Cato Vita ], we have a town hall meeting with all our employees. So we will have the repeated content of today and new aspects related with their day-to-day operations.

Hello Konrad Krasuski of Bloomberg 3 or 4 questions -- 2 questions instead of 3 or 4. Demographics and you've been speaking about it eloquently and bank was also saying so that we are approaching a new model, a new situation where we will all be somewhat more senior and gray haired. But don't you see any negative side in the development of your lending offer because what is happening right now is that Poland is not depopulating evenly. Perhaps you should customize your offer to regions or to the situation at hand in the regions. So someone may not be creditworthy when one lives in [ Bostock or Samos ] and are you going to be a bank for every one, a universal bank? Or are you going to focus on the islands of [ soliciting ] in Poland and prosperity in Poland? And client loyalty and reduction of churn. What are you going to do if a major portion of your clients want to renegotiate a mortgage arrangement. Are you going to hope for loyalty? Or will you come up with some other solution?

I will start out until I invite Marcin to follow. We are not going to be a bank catering common those islands of prosperity and felicity, no. We are going to be there for the society at large and we value the property adequately. And if someone builds a house in the forest without an access road, we will be able to detect it, and we will not offer to refinance it even now. So there won't be any radical changes in the future. And of course, we will take into account growth tendencies for locality, if there is depopulation and growing unemployment rate the attractiveness of the region will collapse. And we will take this into account as we do right now. So there is no revolution in this respect. And Marcin?

Yes, words from me and then over to [ Asha ]. As to the fixed rate, well, there has been the purpose of it. And we want to involve our clients with a dialogue, and we will invite our clients for potential renegotiation in a 5-year cycle, but not more frequently. And there will be an option, there will be a variable rate available, but we want to offer possibility and predictability to our clients. If we agree on something, let's continue for 5 years. And then we can renegotiate. And in Poland, this 5-year period is relatively short. And if someone is confronted with an extreme situation, one may renegotiate more frequently but we'll need to check one's individual circumstances to make a decision. So each and every situation is different, but we want to promise and deliver as promised. So we don't want to promise something that we are not going to deliver on later on. So we are very much client oriented, and we want to take into account individual situations.

Yes. And from the risk angle and risk management angle. Well, it's not about those islands, those islands of prosperity and happiness. If they appear in Poland, they will have some impact on our lending model and lending decisions. But it will be the effect of the reason for taking such decisions. So we are far behind the time when it was the client's age at pre-determent everything. Now we are now looking at various scoring behavioral models that take into account various behaviors and various new data also taken from outside of the banking environment, and we can mitigate the risk appropriately. Against this backdrop, this attitude will not be different at all to what we have right now. If there is no capacity to service indebtedness, then we can see that there is no area to establish a loan relationship with a client, and that fundamental attitude of the bank will be sustained.

Kamil Stolarski, Santander. Thank you very much for taking us into the future and the longer perspective that you've offered. I have as many as 3 questions. I want to ask you about the market shares, but in 2 main aggregates, credits, loans and deposits. You have provided an outlook of how much this was going to grow. And when I look at the history of ING, well, up to 2021, we were gaining market shares and the latest market -- record market share in deposit was in 2021. Now is today's strategy -- with the market faster than the market or is the market next to us and we want to be twice or 2.5x as good?

Well, we have this conversation on a quarterly basis, the loan-to-depo indicator ratio is very -- a strategic element for us as you are able to see in our presentation, we want to grow on both sides of the balance sheet, but we want to grow faster on the loan side so that the loan-to-depo ratio could systematically grow. And we indeed want to be back in the time when this was 90% plus. And this is still putting us as one of the leaders for this ratio. So already in the difficult situation of the structural over fluidity week and effectively loan money, and we can manage the balance sheet structure so that it's maximally effective. Now regarding what's going to happen in the future and our market share in the future, we said before that we want to increase them. But let's also remember, this was very clear that we are going to function around huge growth in terms of volume, where the goal is not to sustain or increase market share, but to increase the volume in natural market. But naturally looking at our efficiency, we are assuming that our market share will be able to grow and will be growing. Yes, you were right to remark that I must add because in general terms, we reflect our conduct in our loan capacity. So when we were aware that there's such excessive fluidity on the market. And we showed the treasury bonds constitute a big proportion of the balance sheet. There is a certain limit to how many T-bonds it makes sense to buy, right? So in general terms, we try and adjust on an ongoing basis. Now we're hoping that the big huge infrastructural prices will increase the demand for loans, both cash and also mortgage -- but at some point, perhaps some of the investments in the private sector will be launched, and we will be seeing the 2 parallel lines growing. You have 2 more questions.

Yes, sadly, I do, if I may. My other question hedging. Is there anything that's going to change? ING today has the lowest interest rate margin. The last 4 quarters, the hedging cost is PLN 4 billion. My question is if something changes or not? If not, I won't take up your time.

I think frequently -- this is a question that's frequently asked. So we have answered it many times. Our goal is to deliver long-term value for our shareholders. So our strategy is not volatile in this area. So we are hoping, we are assuming that we will get a rather stable interest rates. But of course, this is a dynamic environment. This is not one tech strategy. It has some elements that evolve, this is a derivative of our long-term strategy.

And the last question, reference to an article that has recently been published an interview with a manager of an Italian bank. What are the relations of ING Group with the ING Bank and Group? And I wanted to ask you about the enabler seen in CapEx. When I look at the CapEx of ING in 2024, it was PLN 260 million and 5 years ago, it was PLN 436 million? So Well, I know that financial reports are not perfect, but these are the figures you are disclosing. And I'm looking at how revenues are changing. They have grown. Costs have increased by 70%, but amortization, just 9%. So those investments in technology, are they made on the level of the group or are they made by the bank? And isn't it an important enabler to increase investments? And from the point of view of investment outlet.

Okay, let me respond to what's happening in the P&L. This question was asked before, and we have responded to it already. Our goal is not to capitalize per se, but to implement projects in such a way, which is also our attitude -- agile attitude whereby we take small steps and apply short-term measures to deliver outcomes. And it is to a smaller degree that we now have very big enterprises that are capitalized, but we have a lot more outlays that are implemented immediately to our P&L. So please don't look through the lens of CapEx at the ability of the bank to implement projects. We stand out from that point of view in the market. We have been looking at it from the point of view of different financial economic indicators and we OpEx to a much greater degree of projects than is typical for the sector. So that's why our share of investment outlay in our balance sheet is smaller, but cost to income does not necessarily have to be the smallest in the sector. Let me just add that our relationship with the ING Group is very good. You asked about the quality of this relationship. It is very good. We are happy to how -- and how we function -- with how we function in the ecosystem. We are a very important part of this group. And when there are -- we believe that there are solutions that are good, we will be replicating them here in Poland without having to reinvent the wheel. So especially what [ Martek ] has mentioned, the ICBS transformation and some of the components that we will want to use on the basis of the licenses or the experiences that are functioning in the group already. Now effectiveness, added value to the clients and for us as an institution will be some of the defining points here. We will just be implementing those. And it's not a stage at which we can take the same solutions as we did at the beginning of the millennium or back in the '90s, and we cannot get inspired by every single aspect of what's happening in every country in Western Europe, we're at a different stage of this bank's development. But there are certain infrastructural things in certain solutions that we will definitely be using. Any other questions from the room?

Okay, brokerage house city, just to -- central system. How do we understand that against the backdrop of -- what you just said there's a communication in December 2021. Back in the day, you said that you were implementing a centralized system. Just for layman, could you explain what that communication was all about where you are on this route? And to leaping forward towards the left, is it going to be more visible in the OpEx or at some point in the CapEx?

Yes, we communicated that we were using a central system of a specific producer. But based on the implementation process that lasted a few years, we came to the conclusion that, that wasn't the way we wanted to proceed with this transformation. We weren't able, due to the complexity of the system and the links I'm trying to explain it the best I can. We cannot select a specific product and then migrate 1 product after another because there's a lot of change that needs to happen around in the whole environment. So we need to change the attitude, we need to first prepare everything around and reduce the accounting role to the minimum. And then it is only then that we can consider going forward with a new product. But that is a multiannual transformation before we even -- I have been answered, but there is one that I would like to read out.

And against the backdrop of today's announcement of acquiring Goldman Sachs authority stake, I wanted to ask what the name of the institution will be after the transaction is finalized? Funds managed, but Goldman Sachs will be called ING? That's the announcement apparently. What about the managing institution? Are there any changes planned in the pricing policy and the management of the company and their offer?

Already some changes were made today formally -- has been going on for many years with this entity. I don't even want to mention when the ING asset management history started in this capital group. We have come well, quite -- we have come around quite a large historical period. And we need to wait a few months for all of these contents to be obtained. And then it will be INGTFI. The corporation is perfect, always has been. We have shared routes, and we will be talking together about that, and this will be under an orange color with -- that this entity can support our strategy and further develop. This used to be #5, but it has grown and is now the second largest asset management fund, and we have even more ambitious plans going forward.

These are all the questions. I'm looking around the room. Okay. Thank you so much, everyone. And let's continue informally.