Intellect Design Arena Limited (INTELLECT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi, everyone. Greeting, and welcome. Thank you for joining us today to discuss Intellect Design Arena Limited Financial Results for the Fourth Quarter and the Full Year of the Fiscal Year 2021 ending 31st March 2020. Investor presentation and the press release has been sent to all of you and is also available on our website. Our leadership team is present on this call to discuss the results. We have with us today. Mr. Arun Jain, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Venkat Saranu, CFO; Mr. Prabal Basu Roy, advisor to the Chairman, and he is a Director on the Corporate Board. He is also the ex-CFO of the Polaris Group; Mr. Manish Maakan, CEO of iGTB; Mr. Rajesh Saxena, CEO of iGCB; Mr. Banesh Prabhu, CEO of Intellect SEEC; and Mr. Andrew Lee England, is the whole-time Director. Besides, there are certain other senior members of the Intellect management team who are present in this call. Mr. Arun Jain would brief you on the results and the respective CEO, that is Mr. Manish Maakan; Mr. Rajesh Saxena; and Mr. Banesh Prabhu will comment on their line of business. So Venkat Saranu will take you through the financials. Mr. Prabal Basu Roy will summarize the commentary of the management. This will be followed by Q&A, which would be replied by the senior members of the management team. On safe harbor, I would like to remind you if anything which we say which refers to our outlook for the future is a forward-looking statement. This must be read in conjunction with the risk the company faces. With this, I request Arun to give his briefing. Over to you, Arun.

Good evening to everyone, and thank you for participating in the investor call. I think 2021 was a very significant year in the journey of Intellect not from a financial perspective, but from technology perspective as well. I think the whole business, as you know, on banking has become -- few big shift has happened in banking industry. But technology is -- banking become technology. Data is a new oil. Experience is all about everything. And in this area, the new era of banking has emerged during COVID times. So COVID has pushed entire digital transformation to a new level. And 2021 for Intellect has played a very key role from a perspective of the way technologies are built. Intellect had a great technologies till 2017 or '18, which are related to our products. And in last 3 years, 2018 onwards, when we invested the money in the New York, and we invested the money in the U.K. by setting up the teams there to make it a data technology piece in 2017 and invested over $40 million in U.S. on data technologies and similarly invested on cloud technology. That has given a substantial push to our technologies. So what we are celebrating over here is an outcome of the efforts, which is put in by Intellect team, the brilliant Intellect team in 4 areas of technology. So first, what is required by the industry is put next slide, yes. So this is -- go back previous. So highly secured hyperscale cloud technology was a very, very big dream. Here we built up -- we pick up a technology from Netflix. Netflix has a high streaming technology, and that technology gives you mouseover analytics when you take a mouseover analytics. And that's a strong technology for huge scale of data, which is there to be a sustainable kind of experience. We are substantially ahead by using a technology, which is typically used for streaming to be used for a corporate banking area and now we'll go for the retail banking. Area. So streaming technology and API technology are highly hyperscale technologies. High-performance technologies for high volumes, we are able to just put almost 5,000 TPS transaction per second technologies. Earlier, typically, just to give a reference, banking industries would run with 100 TPS or 200 TPS at the most. We are able to expand this capacity to 5,000 TPS, and that's what is ringing the bell in our advanced markets. Customer experience technologies, the entire UX experience, the way we build our customer experience, technologies we built up. Data insights, I mentioned to you in technology Day. Those technologies are again very, very smart technologies and getting a very good traction and pipeline, Banesh will give you the brief that we are getting a high-quality of reception in the market. And then looking at the complete digital insight, which is a wiring of operations and ensuring high STP. So I'll not go into details because this is a part of technology DNA, but these 5 elements are very critical, which are driven based on the 4 underlying technologies, which is [ AI/ML ] platform. There is a document, IDX, there's a [indiscernible] and banking operating system. The artisans of each one of them is in a few slides. So not to just move on the each slide, but we don't spend too much time. It's been done. It's a complex [indiscernible] element over data insight. Then move to next. It is about Turmeric Platform benefit for the customer. This clipping is to show the POCs to the customer, proof-of-concept, using Turmeric in less than 4 weeks. And that is helping us to sometimes mitigate RFPs and cutting down the RFP time. And it gives you the agile delivery Turmeric use agile delivery to the customer that when I'm building the transformational agenda of the customer, I can demonstrate that every 3 weeks, how is the project working? Earlier, all the transformation project is a multiyear projects. We are moving to multi-week where the customer is able to do it, and that's what is getting deal in Canada, deal in Germany or the deal in France that's coming from this Turmeric platform. Because it has got all the 5 components, which is required to build an application from Experience Studio to API Exchange to Developer Sandbox. And these technologies can be there. But now in 2021, what we have done is we have demonstrated this technology in Germany for the client like Auto, which is a highly demanding client or in Canada, or in France and they are working smoothly. Next. This is our complete fintech cloud, which we have built up, move on these technologies. This technology, which I mentioned, API-based technologies and the technology, which is related to the streaming technologies, all are part of this. These technologies, how it is ringing to the bell and what is the need of the market. So need of the market has become more of it. Two things. It's like IKEA furniture. If you look at IKEA model, now IKEA in the last 50 years is not able to replicate by many other player in the world. Because this -- they separated each piece separately, they are able to package, reduce the logistics cost of the transportation. Same way, if I look at it, our composable technology, we could be able to break down package business components, which is PBCs. So we break down like core banking, lending and credit card, as Rajesh will speak about, they're able to bring out 35 PBCs and 300 APIs through which a new business solutions can be designed, which is a composable business design. Today, Gartner says that their 4 things are important. Composable thinking; composable business design with contextuality built into it; Composable and contextual architecture; and then finally, we are looking for composable technologies, and we are dot on what Gartner and other analysts are in the market saying today. Go to next slide. So these are the set of products where we are applying this contextual technologies, which you -- most of you are aware, we are applying these technologies for digital transaction banking. We are applying these technologies for payments. We are applying for liquidity. We are applying for payments, trade and supply chain finance. We are able to integrate digital core, lending, cards, retail banking, wealth and central banking. So that's the power of -- and then we are moving to treasuries, brokerage, asset services capital, underwriting workstation, risk analyst, magic submission where Novarica is saying we are the best in the world on AI technology platform. And then our government portal, which we are fully managing is doing healthily now and Turmeric platform and IDX is the Magic Aadhaar launch, which happened in a short period of time, is delivering a great pipeline creation right now. Next. From here, we are moving to market leadership. We have 25 customers now in Americas, 23 in Europe, 53 in APAC, 139 customers in India, Middle East and Africa. They are spread out across 97 countries, and that's the beauty of us that we are able to build up a regulatory framework, which is important for the banking in 97 countries, so that our applications become much, much faster. Move next. In recent past, it's 5 wins in Austria, Sweden, Germany, France, U.K., U.S. and Canada on a new technology architecture composable and contextual architecture, is just giving us hands full for our ability to expand. So we are hiring a lot of people right now in that -- these markets to service it. Move next. Our competition in this market, we have shared with you in a consumer banking, we have Temenos, Finastra, TCS, Finacle, Mambu, Thought Machine nCinos. In transaction Banking, Finastra, ACI worldwide, CGI, bottom line. Banking is Carpe Data, Planck, Palantir. And Risk and Treasury is Sungard, Finastra and Calypso. We have added a few leadership profiles in the U.S. Jim has joined there. Kyle has joined, and we are adding leadership bandwidth in Europe and U.S. as we are moving forward because 2021, we have won many clients in U.S. The U.S. is opening up for us. So with this, our whole focus, which was there for 2021 to start monetizing from industrialization phase has culminated very beautifully by having a net PAT of INR 263 crore initially when we mentioned that we will cross INR 200 crores. I think our estimate was INR 250 crores, and we could able to achieve more than our estimated number of INR 250 crores in this year. Our EBITDA, which was estimated to be around INR 300 crores, we could be able to achieve INR 357 crore. On collection front, from 150 days, we can move them back to 114 days of DSOs. So it means all the deliveries are happening perfectly, and it's reducing the DSOs. So our execution capital that we deliver what we have promised has been highlighted in 2 shapes. One is NPS, Net Promoter Score. So our customers are more referenceable. They are promoting our product in the marketplace. And this is an important point in a product journey. When your customer become promoter, then the growth really happens because then your sales efforts are in not inviting at a Level 1 customer, we will take Level 3 customer directly. So sale cycle time comes down because of that. And with all these indicators, which have all moved in the right direction. So in a single year, I'm very proudly saying the amount of work, which each leadership team has done is amazing during the COVID year. In spite of COVID, the families are having a COVID and small houses in which they are operating from. But it's amazing to see that in 12 months' time, so much change and transformation can be happen on all the front, from technology front, market development front, leadership development front, our execution, development -- execution capability front and then resulting into the financial metrics, which is -- one would like to look at it very, very satisfying financial metrics. So at this point of time, I'll pass on to Manish for highlighting LOBs and all your question, I will be there to answer, which is a specific question, but I wanted to start technology-first because that's where we are in and that's where the difference in next 3 to 5 years will be there, which is where we are clearly seeing the growth trajectory in coming years.

Thanks, Arun. You can go into the next slide. So what I'm going to talk about is, once again, reiterate what I talked about in the technology day, what's our vision, what's our technology vision. It's to enable consumerization of commercial banking. What do I mean by it is what capabilities the retail consumer could get. And in the end, all of us are retail consumers, how in the corporate world, when we go in a corporate role, how do you get those level of capabilities and on-tap functionality or what do you want to enable a self servicing capability. The analytics, like Arun talked about, powered by the Netflix capabilities, which we have leveraged, but that real-time contextuality, how all the analytics is available just on hover over a single click design like Amazon uses it, the user experience, you don't have to go through multiple tabs or multiple portfolios to understand what your balances are and what actions you need to take to run on that. All of that has been built on contextual, composable hyperscale cloud technologies. That's the crux of it. You've got -- you've developed 2 specific engines in it. One is Lisa, which brings the contextuality, which is from the Netflix capabilities and from hyperscaling is the Pegasus data engineering technology. Based on this, we've been making an impact to all our products. Next slide, please. We've got 5 platforms over there where we put our investments in the last 2 years to make them cloud-native and that's why we have been consistently chosen as a #1 best-selling wholesale banking product provider. And 2 specific products, digital transaction banking and corporate liquidity management be a de facto market standard from that perspective and winning most of the deals, and that's what we're going to -- I'll briefly talk about one of those platforms of the wins and the successes we have had, which is corporate liquidity. If you can go to the next slide, please. We just announced a big deal end of last quarter, which is with society general. And here's their vision of what they wanted to achieve for the leadership vision of how a one bank image can be provided to all their corporate customers. That capability will be powered by technology provided by iGTB for liquidity and payments capability. And this is a fairly large bank from its size, one more addition to what we have done. Go on to the next slide. In the last 5 quarters, quarter-on-quarter, we've been closing fairly large deals with some of the largest banks in the market. We started -- we closed the last year with HSBC, followed by first Abu Dhabi Bank, BNY Mellon, Northern Trust. And in the last quarter, we closed Société Générale and Lloyds Bank. With this now, we have 40-plus customers for liquidity across 56 countries. By the time we -- implementation for Société Générale complete, we will have tax and regulatory framework, which is over the next 24 months for about 76 countries enabled. That's a very, very significant mode to have, which is what the market is really appreciating and respecting us for. And this is all cloud native, and we are available across the cloud platform players, we are agnostic from that perspective. And some of these, we are going on Microsoft or AWS or IBM. So we support all of them from that perspective. Like I've shared before, close to $35 trillion of notional pooling happens on this application. And we've been consistently also recognized by multiple analysts. Next slide, please. The 12 market-leading analysts with 35-plus accolades over the last 18 months we've been consistently winning as a leadership across the market, including some of the consulting firms like Accenture, which have noted digital architecture, Gartner, what they call out. And most of our customers have been winning market accolades. HSBC was very recently rated as a #1 player for -- part of Euro finance. And that's the endorsement, which has helped us. This has all been possible for the technology, the customers as promoters. Go to next slide, please. And this has been contributed. What we do is based on all of this knowledge, we contribute back to the ecosystem by our iGTB Oxford School of Transaction Banking. This has been a biannual event last year because of COVID, we missed. So coming year, we should be looking at launching this back very soon, whereby we bring the best of the best in the market and we spend 3 days discussing the current trends in the technology, current trends in market from a corporate banking perspective and how do you help contribute and there are a number of other people who are looking at various stages of their transaction banking. From a stage 1 to stage 2 to stage 3, how do you grow what are core products? What are the key criteria? What's a CEO's dashboard looking at? So we network and share that knowledge back so that the overall community can grow from that perspective. We've again got a very high NPS score on this consistently. Next slide, please. This has helped us truly turn the world blue. I've been sharing this consistently with all of you what our footprint is and 2/3 of our revenue continues to come from existing customers. And we had a very good -- we just finished NPS survey, and we got a very high rating above market average recently, which is a proof of putting in that 87% of revenue came from existing customers even during these tough COVID times. We were the principal solution provider with these customers of how we deliver and what we deliver. Next slide, please. So this is our market leadership team, which is helping me with Andrew, Dave and Ted of how to navigate the market from an executing team with Atanu, Phil and Rajesh, where we're going -- taking out each of these -- and each of them have been fairly long time within the organization, Dave is the most recent addition to our organization, he is our oldest customer from that perspective. And as he retired out of CIBC, he's joined on -- he was the group CIO for CIBC. And prior to that, with BMO, he joined our growth advisory Council. Ted and Andrew has been helping me anchor this charter for a while. And next slide. And over, given the wins we have had, like Arun said, we started expanding our sales team for a while. We had stopped doing that. Given the confidence market has seen, the funnel we have to drive that, we've added salespeople in U.K., Spain, Austria, U.S., UAE, Singapore. We've also strengthened the product management and delivery organization across all the products. And we are able to hire from the best of the best be it consulting and technology company or the largest banks. So the strength of our existing organization, along with the additional capacity and capabilities, which we have added, gives me the confidence that we are on the right path of the growth of what we have continued to deliver, we will continue to live up to all of that. With this, I will hand it off to Rajesh to share the commentary on GCB. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Manish. And congratulations on winning a multi-country destiny deal for liquidity management for SocGen, Let me start by reminding ourselves that GCB consists of 6 product lines, our digital core proposition, where we compete with Temenos, Finastra, Finacle and Mambu, our digital lending proposition where we are competing with nCino and Thought Machine, our market leading product, which is our Quantum banking for central banks, the new line that we've added 6 months back on digital banks, our omnichannel solution and our credit card solution. Let me move to the next slide. So let me start with our performance in FY '21. While we saw our peers and markets having muted growth during the last year, we won 18 deals during this year. Retail banking division of Intellect won 18 deals during this year, 6 of which we classify as destiny deals, 6 were upgrade deals and 6 were other deals. Let me talk briefly about our destiny deals. Our first deal, which is the Bank of Mozambique, it's a central banking end-to-end deal that we won against SAP. Concentra is the deal, and it is our first foray into North America market. This is a deal that we won in Canada, which is on our digital banking platform, and this is a deal we won against Temenos and Backbase Auto, which is a Germany deal that we won on 818 [ IIDC ] , the deal was won against Temenos, nCino and Thought Machine and also against internal build. Arab bank is a very large bank in [indiscernible ] market. Here, we have won a 10-country rollout of digital teller, which is our IDC product, NABARD in India, which is a core banking deal. And of course, we have also won a complete cloud-hosted cards deal for a large multinational bank in India. On this slide, I want to also talk a little bit about one more deal, which is the Mauritius Telecom. Mauritius Telecom is the largest telecom provider in Mauritius, and is starting a digital bank there, and we have been chosen to provide the digital bank platform for Mauritius Telecom. If we can move to the next slide, please. Not only did we win good number of deals during the last year. We have been well acknowledged by analysts across globally. And also, as Manish said, many of our customers have been recognized for innovation when they used our platform. I want to reiterate our IBS ranking, which is a #1 retail banking ranking that we won in 2020. And this is the second time in succession that we are winning this accolade from IDC. If we can go to the next slide, please. So what is driving this? It's actually our technology architecture, it's a continued focus on advanced market and our product growth engines. Next slide, please. 18 months back, we realized that the market was changing very rapidly and was moving towards an API-first and cloud-native architecture, and that's the bet that we took. And I'm happy to say that at this point of time, vis-à-vis my competitors, our markets are market-leading from an architecture perspective. Next slide, please. What does this mean to us? It means that all our products are now cloud-native, API-first and micro services enabled. We have decoupled our UI/UX layer. We now have over 300 APIs, which I would say are production grade and advanced market ready. BIAN is an organization, which is founded by leading financials -- leading banks and organizations across the world. We are part of this BIAN group and along with other members are defining API standards for financial services market, that we are doing. We also -- I think I've always talked about the ecosystem importance despite a late start, we have now caught up with our competitors on the ecosystem, and we have a robust marketplace ecosystem, both globally as well as from a country perspective, and what it really gives to our customer is that they come when they join with us, they get a ready-made marketplace or they can create their own marketplace. If we can go to the next slide, please. Our next strategy is what is -- what we followed was our focus on Europe and North America. It's not that other -- sorry, if you can just go back to the previous, yes. It's not that we are not focusing on other markets. Our other markets are also growing very handsomely. But we have been focusing -- as GCB, we have been focusing on Europe and North America, and we are continuously building a good momentum in this business. In fact, Europe, last year was one the largest geographies for me. If you can go to the next slide, please. So what is this advanced market strategy? Advanced market strategy is really building a capability of sales, solution, delivery and hosting in Germany, U.K. and Canada, we have a couple of marquee clients, which are referenceable for us. And we are now in many -- last 2 in many deals in Europe. We have a fully hosted IDC solution in Germany and U.K. on AWS and Canada in Azure, which is completely regulatory, open banking and PSD2 comply. And as I said last time, we are looking to launch a new product in Europe very shortly. If we can move to the next slide, please. Our third strategy is really built around 3 product growth engines: The Digital Core; the Digital Lending; and Quantum Banking. If we can move to the next slide, please. Our value proposition on IDC 21 if I must say, is around a fully integrated product suite, where we have a completely composable PVCs cutting across core banking, lending, channels, treasury, trade finance AML. Also, it has -- we are using analytics using AI/ML and also very powerful back end engine. What this powerful back end -- sorry, if you can go back, yes, powerful back end engine is doing for us is that it is reducing the cost, the overall TCO for our clients on a benchmark that we did versus some of our peers in this space. We found that our TCO is about 10% to 12% cheaper than our competitors. Next slide, please. Lending, lending is a growth engine for us. It has done very well for us last year and what we really have is probably the only player in the market, which has an integrated lending suite across retail, retail customers, SME customers and corporate customers, and it also got across loan origination, loan management, collateral, limit management and debt management, again, very high hyperscale cloud technologies we are doing. And in some of our POCs that we have done, we've been able to show very high TPS and very low critical EODs for more than 1 million customers. If we can go to the next slide, please. Quantum banking, as you know, is the market leader in this category. And today, we have 12 modules. None of our competitors have this and these 12 modules are both loosely and tightly coupled for us so that we can -- I can sell part of these modules or I can sell the entire central banking solution. Next slide, please. So in summary, after a calibrated growth for the last couple of years, FY '21 was a good year for the business. All engines of the business, as Arun said in his initial commentary of firing, sales solution, execution, engineering and customer support. Three of our products: IDC, IDL and QCBS have hit critical mass and now as we see a growing momentum in Europe and North America, we are now planning to invest in some specific areas of the business. We are looking to hire more SMEs, certain select sales position. One of the other things that we are seeing in our business is a very rapid movement in cloud. Most of the deals that we are winning are cloud deals, and therefore, we are investing in cloud operations. So overall, as I said today, cautiously optimistic because we are still in COVID, and we are having a huge impact from COVID in India perspective and strongly optimistic from a medium-to-long term. So that's what I had from a retail banking perspective. Thank you for listening to me, and I want to hand it over to Banesh.

Thanks, Rajesh. I'm just going to talk a couple of minutes on the SEEC business. I think we've sort of spoken at length on it. I'm sort of going to talk to you about 3 specific areas: technology; how the product leadership is taking shape; and the markets. So actually SEEC, as -- if you go to the next slide, SEEC on the technology side, during the COVID times, we've seen significant growth in digital enablement. But one of the other things we've seen is an explosion in data. Our data platform, which is now fully ready, can take thousands of data points from various partners, it is then able to use that data to triangulate that data for our customers so that they can take superior user journeys using intelligent data so that they can make a differentiation for customers much better than their competition. The platform is up and running. All of SEEC customers are cloud and all of them are subscription based. So directionally, that's what the market is doing. Most of those customers are either in the U.S. or in the U.K., and we have some in Australia, too. I think the other interesting thing that has happened in technology during this year is the launch of the IDX.ai platform. Now the IDX.ai platform actually started first, for magic submission launch. Magic submission is an onboarding for insurance. But actually, we've seen interest in IDX now across the various different business lines. We've launched Magic Aadhaar as you know, recently, and we've now got 2 or 3 other products around onboarding for banking, ESG for investments well underway and in discussion with clients to try and implement it for them. And the other thing we've done in technology is that we've actually upgraded our Xponent platform and it's gone live now for 2 large insurance companies in the U.S. I think the -- if you go to the next slide. From a market perspective, I think we've seen significant progress in the way in which customers take the IDX platform, access the data that we have on our first data -- on our fabric data platform and actually triangulate this data together to have a superior journey and that is actually resonating very well with our customers. We've also got the opportunity now to be able to launch Magic Aadhaar, which is actually a version that came out on our IDX platform. That will actually help people do a combination of validation as well as verification of data and then actually ingesting with our strong API capability that Intellect has across the various different legacy platforms that the customer uses. So if you move forward, one of the things -- next slide, yes. So from a product leadership perspective, I think what we are seeing is not only have we built an excellent team, we've also scaled up our data sciences group, because we have really become the core of the AI/ML capability for our customers. Recently, in April, we won a very important deal with one of the largest U.K. wealth providers. What we've been able to do is actually automate the investment management division from an AI/ML perspective. This is a multiyear deal that we've signed with them to build that capability. And that includes actually implementing the ESG capability. So from a leadership perspective, we seem to be getting customers interested in leveraging the full cycle, which is the capability to extract data from documents, whether the electronic documents or paper documents, whether they are structured or semi structured data and actually then validate those documents and use intelligence tools to be able to take decisions and differentiated journey so that they can actually use them very efficiently in the end-to-end digital enablement capability that they've built. And I think one of the good things we've seen is our Xponent Underwriting platform. On a stand-alone basis, it was a platform that actually was not -- it was getting customers an opportunity to move away from core systems like policy admin systems and actually do underwriting for insurance outside of these 4 platforms. Now with our data platform, they are actually able to use both IDX, which is Magic Submission, along with data, to be able to underwrite significantly faster and better for customers than they have before. So if you move forward, next slide, I think we've got extremely good interest building up from customers. I think we've also launched a very powerful digital marketing capability. And I think that's helping us reach, we've got almost 30 active discussions in progress right now with customers across the world, mainly in the U.S. and in India. And I think hopefully, we will see a lot more AI/ML implementations going forward. Next slide. I think in 2020, we had 7 awards from almost all the major analysts and independent entities like Celent, Novarica, Dataiku for AI/ML as well as for using data more efficiently for user journeys. So I think our positioning is right, our monetization is just about beginning on this platform, and you'll see a lot more of this going forward. Thank you.

Yes. So just taking to next from here, the 3 businesses out of 4 businesses, which we initially announced. And I think the beauty in [ 2021 ] happened is that out of 4, 3 businesses are fully operational. The monetization of the third business like SEEC will happen this year. When the AI platform, the pipeline building is happening, first 2 businesses, first, GTB start delivering results in 2019 to 2020. GCB start delivering results, now is the time. SEEC is delivering results. And let me take you through some of the next business pipeline, which we initially suggested to you that it will work in - we will work in 2021. Can you hear or no?

We can hear you, Arun.

Yes, yes. So RTM is the third -- fourth business, which we are working on, in which treasury, the entire money management piece of the treasury. We are now working a GTM strategy around it and that GTM strategy is doing well. We have went live in UAE. So these are small things, which are looking at it. But I think '21, '22 is a critical year where we are working on treasury for Central Banks and treasury for the NBFCs and looking for Europe to enter into the treasury business. Next piece, which is important is wealth business. The high-growth engine product is a wealth product. The global market doesn't have an integrated solution with almost 12 [ pieces ] from RM stations so we have taken Avaloq as a model and work on Avaloq and start building complete wealth market as open composable wealth solutions. We have live customers in Malaysia, live customers in Singapore, Thailand, India. And now this is another area of growth for coming years. China Banking corporation has gone live, which is a complete trust engine and complete capability. So this is -- we are competing against Avaloq and moving forward to build up an open marketplace in wealth. Next, the iGOV and GeM business, I think after a lot of investment in last 3 years, 2021 was a good period where this government adoption of this platform is happening. And again, '21, '22 will be the good year when we will be moving from last year, it was more of a breakeven year for us. This year, we'll be moving towards positive growth cycle in GeM business and looking for a higher volume this year. So moving from here, Saranu will just share few financial performance, which you already might have seen it because it was circulated in the morning, but he'll just give you the context of it. Over to Saranu.

Thank you, Arun. Good evening to everybody. Yes, as Arun rightly said that we've already circulated information in advance, so all of them would have gone through that. See, as you know that in Q4, we have reported a revenue of INR 3.9 billion, registering a growth of 10% as compared to a similar quarter of the last year. Similarly, in terms of license revenue is concerned, that we have reported INR 849 million and AMC revenue of INR 750 million, cloud and SaaS, INR 645 million. It is an important aspect , I mean, to be noted that. As a result of that, we're able to recommend -- we are able to register a growth of 68% as of cloud and SaaS revenue is concerned in current quarter. We have also reported a gross profit of INR 2.2 billion resulting to a gross margin of 56.5% as compared to 53.6% of the last year. Similarly, EBITDA we have reported INR 985 million. As a result, this resulted into an EBITDA margin of 25% as compared to 18% last year. We will report a net profit of [ INR 806 million ], resulting in the net profit margin of 20% as compared to 11% of the last year. And the important aspect, what I would like to bring it all the numbers is that cash and cash equivalent as of 31st March 2021, we have reported INR 2.6 billion as against INR 1.36 billion in the last year. However, our net cash on 31st March 2021, is INR 2.1 billion. As of 31 March 2020, it was INR 1.2 billion net debt. So that means from a net debt of INR 1.2 billion, we moved to a positive cash of INR 2.1 million -- INR 2.1 billion, sorry. Our total collection in Q4, we collected INR 3.7 billion, or net [ DSO ] is 114 days as compared to 150 days. Our investment in product development was INR 284 million in Q4. These are the numbers related to the Q4. Let us go to the next slide. These are the numbers what we are talking for financial 2021. So as we see that, we have reported total revenue of INR 15 billion in the current financial year, resisting a growth of 11% as compared to the previous year. In case, our license revenue, we have reported INR 3.3 billion, registering a growth of 35%. Our AMC revenue, INR 2.9 billion, registering a growth of 18%. Our SaaS and subscription is INR 1.8 billion, registering a growth of 47%. Look, the license revenue, AMC revenue and SaaS revenues, what we call as License linked revenues. It was 46% the last year moved to 54% in the current year. Our gross profit for the current year was INR 8.3 billion as a result that our gross margin was 56% as compared to 48% in the last year. Our EBITDA for the year was INR 3.57 billion. As a result, we are able to report a margin of 24% as compared to 6% in the last year. Our net profit is INR 2.62 billion in the current year as a result that our margin improved from 1% to 18%. As I said, our gross cash in 31st March 2021, it is INR 2.6 billion, and our effective operating cash is INR 3.3 billion. Our net cash, as I said, that INR 2.1 billion as compared to the INR 1.2 billion is the net debt. So that from net debt of INR 1.2 billion, we'll move to INR 2.1 billion of the positive cash. It is a cool achievement from the point of the collections are concerned that as the other parameters, what I mentioned there. I also did mention the net [ DSO ] is 114 days as compared to 150 days. We have invested in the product development to the extent of INR 1.1 billion in current year. Our SG&A cost has come down from 13.7 -- from 17.2% to 13.7%. Our R&D and product development cost stood at 13.7% as compared to 7.2% in the last year. So these are the slides in terms of -- the same numbers has been depicted in different manner. Maybe as you can see, just keep -- previous slide. Our EPS for the quarter is INR 24.25. Go to the next slide. Our EPS for the year is 19.76. Go to the next slide. As you can see that we have given -- we have depicted the revenues in each quarter-wise, as you can see, that last 6 quarters, our revenue mostly has been increasing quarter after quarter. That is -- it talks about sustainability of the growth when you're talking about that. Go to next slide. This is -- this is what I talked about a few minutes back that as far as the license linked revenues are concerned that license revenue, AMC revenue and SaaS revenue. If I take 3 streams of the revenues, every year after year, this has been improving that. And as I mentioned in the previous slide, it was 46% in the previous year. It moved to 54%, prior to that it is 42%. So it is a good sign in terms of the profitability of the company is concerned. Go to next slide. As we can see here is that we classify our business into advance market and growth market. In the advance market, our business is 55% as compared to 59% in the previous year. Go to next slide. One second, the PAT and EBITDA, we have depicted on account -- I mean, on a quarter-wise, if you've seen Q3 FY '20, it was in the negative. From thereafter, every quarter we have been reporting PAT -- positive PAT as compared to the previous quarters. So even in similar fashion in EBITDA in Q3 of FY '20 was $36 million, which has moved to INR 985 million. So we already talked about the collections and net cash in detail in the previous slides. Next, as we can see that we got a healthy pipeline and our pipeline as of Q4 is $573 million. We've got -- the most important aspect we have to look into is that our Destiny Deals is 43 deals as compared to 41 deals of Q4 '20. Similarly, the most important aspect is that our average deal size is 5.6 million, and the Destiny Deal constitute 53%. So it is an important aspect for a company of our size and nature. Go to the next slide. As we can see here is we have given active pursuits. One is the high-value pursuit, which is more than INR 50 crores. It was 43 in Q3, which was -- I mean, it was 41 in Q4 '20. And similarly, as we can say that more than 50% comes to 80 and 30 to 50 is 50 and 20 to 30 is 20. It has improved as compared to previous quarter of the similar years. This is a currency wise breakup, which I have given here. So as you can see that in terms of INR is 20% and USD is 37%, major -- GBP is 16%. These are the primary currencies in terms of the revenues are concerned. Yes, we already talked about that. This is all from my side. I think I will hand over to Prabal now.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. Good evening. So you heard the entire top management team, I guess. And I think we stressed on 3 critical aspects, which are inherent to the success of what you have seen so far. One was our superior technology in building a multiproduct fintech platform; two is the product portfolio, the integrated product portfolio, which we are launching year after year, which is like Arun mentioned and others mentioned as well, is both composable and contextual. And third is the ability to win in the marketplace consistently through our invigorated sales and marketing strategy. I think these are the 3 things, which you heard about. I would like to just from a summary perspective, talk about 2, 3 additional points. One was -- the first and foremost for me was that we had made a commitment to the financial markets last year same time that we will try and do about INR 250 crores of profitability after tax. I think we have kept it. Now obviously, the question is, once it's done, it becomes a part of history, but it's important to know how we did it. I think that is -- that part is very important to understand the pedigree of the organization. And I think FY '21, despite being a very difficult year, was all about changing the business trajectory and the profitability profile of the company. At a high level, that is what we did. And this did not happen by chance. It happened by a series of measures from industrialization of processes through design thinking, through [ brush rationalization ] through alignment of costs with assured non-license revenue streams. Alignment, of costs, along with that, to eliminate the volatility in earnings because of license. And most importantly, building the SaaS revenue space. I think you will see if you go through the results, you will see for yourself that there's been a significant improvement in the quality of the revenue. That is very critical for a business like ours. So now we have ARR assured revenue run rate of revenue, ARR of about $76 million per annum. And this run rate is up from $42 million 3 years ago, giving a CAGR of 21-odd-percent in this critical segment. And more importantly, also, this ARR now forms 38% of our revenues totally. So 38% of our revenues from 25% 3 years ago. And third aspect is that the mix, the mix has improved also significantly of ARR to the overall revenue profile. So the quality of the revenue is improving significantly. So because of these few things, the results are there for you to see INR 250 crores plus profit, up from INR 16 crores. And operating cash flow, most importantly of anywhere in the range of INR 250 crores plus per annum. This year, of course, we did INR 334 crores, but it's up from minus 80 and minus 160 in the last 2 years. So we are in a very stable operating cash flow generation capacity. And of course, that has helped in the reduction of debt with a working capital loan, down to very negligible levels today. So this is the how part of it. The second part is the top management challenge for FY '22. Like last year, we spoke of few top management challenges. I think this year, with stability and the financial profile and the technology side, I think the top management challenge this year will be focused on scaling up the organization. So like in all product companies, we too had one hump at about $40 million a quarter. The next hump is about 50 to 55, [ 52 to 53 ], which is where we are presently. And then the next hump is something, which we need to cross this and hopefully go to a number close to $60 million per quarter. So that means the top management challenge will be all on revenue. And how we plan to do that is something you heard from all of us essentially through technology, through business model changes. And of course, scaling up our capability to sell in the advanced markets with a couple of new product launches and, of course, a healthy pipeline to back us up. Risks, I think COVID continues to be a risk for everybody. There are some macro headwinds because of this both globally and in India. Though I must admit that the segment we play in is relatively positioned to handle these much better than other segments, because of the tailwinds you know of regulation technology, fintech and the changing dynamics in consumer preferences. The last point I would like to say, which is -- you may have heard me say before, but this is a good year to say that is that, it's always a great disservice to view us only as a technology company. We are really an innovation engine and [ IP ] play. That is what Intellect stands for. That's where our core technology comes. And so while EPS, et cetera, all those things you have seen, it will be a key parameter of value. The true value of such companies globally is in the embedded value of its IP assets and its people and culture. These are the 2 things. So you look at a Tesla, Palantir, Snowflakes, you can go on. So when we control this IP, the models -- various models of monetization are possible. So we have seen the IDX data platform, which Banesh spoke about is one such example. And there are many more. So GeM is another and so on and so forth. So this is the actual value of the organization, which is now sort of e-managing. And you have seen almost from last year to this year, multifold increase in the valuation of the organization as the markets continue to recognize us for these aspects as well. Thank you.

Thank you, Prabalji. Now the program is open for questions. [Operator Instructions]

Some of the questions have come up in a window -- question window itself. So some other questions I'm trying to answer in the window. But now if we can look at it -- specific questions. And some of the window's questions if Rajesh and Manish, if you see it's related to you, if you can respond, it's in the window. So like Digital Bank deal in advance market. We are winning Digital bank equivalent deal, like auto was a digital equivalent deal. It's not a digital challenger bank. And Canada deal of Concentra, which has been highlighted by Rajesh is making Concentra like a digital bank. So that's one answer for that.

And I'll also request that we had in the last few in some of the digital bank deals. So maybe next quarter, when we announce results, we may have some information on that.

you guys -- That's okay. Go ahead.

In the last call, you had mentioned that you have a 5-year plan of sitting in a top line of $400 million. And Mr. Basu was just mentioning that we're just ramping up our capacity. I mean do we foresee any major challenges? Or are we more or less on track? I mean, that would entail more or less like a 14% CAGR for the next 5 years, if I'm -- if you go back, are we positioned. Do we see any challenges or this year looks a bit tough and then maybe the growth will accelerate from the next year onwards? I'm just trying to understand a broad picture of the top line growth.

Yes. And top line growth is intact. I think this doubling our revenue from $200 million to $400 million in next 5 years is fully intact, 1,400 -- 14% CAGR is definitely in the same direction. You always mentioned, we have designed the business around 20% growth, but we may achieve 14% to 16% kind of mid growth. That's the kind of a number. So your calculations of 14% CAGR is on track. So we will wait from that perspective. And some of the businesses like cloud business have a growth curve, initial investments are large in subscription-based revenue. And is slow initially when NPS score grows, that's why NPS becomes important in the cloud revenue because when NPS grows, then the promotion happens of that business faster. So it will not be quarter-on-quarter. I always mention in our business. Don't look at quarter-on-quarter. Few quarters will be up and down. Fortunately, last year, there is a sustained all the 4-quarter growth. But we'll have a few quarters, which may be very good where we can win some $3 million, $4 million, $5 million deal size. And suddenly, it gives you a very good bumpy kind of a number in next quarter. So we are not in service business. So that mindset that it will be linear, it will not happen. And on a year-to-year basis, it is most important for us.

Sir, just one more question. So are we confident of hitting 14% or should we expect a lower run rate for the...

No, we should be in a similar range.

And sir, as far as the margins are concerned, I mean we are more or less flat. Should we expect the higher [indiscernible].

Again, Vivek quarter-on-quarter, don't look quarter-on-quarter. We have expanded the margin to 25% level from 5%, 6% level. So quarter-on-quarter is not the right metrics for us to look at it. I think the wins are important. The quality of the wins are important over here in the rate.

Somebody from Dolat Capital. The name is not there. Somebody from Dolat.

So yes. This is Rahul. So firstly, my first question is from the AMC the net point of view. If you see this, run rate has been quite static for last 3 quarters despite we've been adding $10 million, $12 million kind of a license fee every quarter. So can you explain the gap of this translation?

Yes. So AMC is directly dependent on closure of the project and then some of the projects have a warranty period after the closure of the projects so that is not directly linkage to that. But over the last year to this year, there is a growth in the AMC revenue. So that is more important. Again, last 3 quarters, yes, we have close to INR 75 crore is the AMC. It marginally goes from INR 74 crore. Some of it is foreign exchange rate also. In first quarter, the rate was different and fourth quarter, the FX rate is different. So that's how the minor differences are there. But it's consistently growing, not as high as what we anticipate, but it is going in the right direction.

And just to answer your question on this. Or maybe Venkat can also say that. But in terms of the ARR growth, which I talked about, which is AMC subscription, SaaS revenue, et cetera. So there, the composite ARR growth, which we are generating is about 21% CAGR over the last 3 years. And AMC has been growing at a CAGR of about 11% to 12% over the last 3 years. So it's growing at a steady clip. Yes, I mean, there could be more opportunities as Arun mentioned, that's fine, but it's growing at a steady clip of about 11% to 12%, and the rest is coming through new businesses of SaaS, et cetera.

Right. Just to get a bit clarity on that. So what is the ideal tenure from license to AMC one should consider given the implementation and Go Live or warranty period in between. So what should be the standard license to AMC conversion period?

It varies. It can be from 1 year to -- so some of the licenses, we charge AMC upfront. So it's a very, very starting point itself, which are the AMC. But in some other cases, it takes 12 months, some of the cases it may take 18 months, some of the cases, maybe...

24 months.

24 months. So it's varying from time to time. And a few projects we may land up, which is transformational nature projects goes up to 3 years as well. I mean the large deals are there.

Right. And the bulk of the revenue increase in the quarter came from the GeM business. So is it safe to assume that this big destination deal has come in the month of -- in this quarter rather than the previous quarter?

the SocGen deal in the last quarter itself. But I think you need to understand the license revenues to be constantly every quarter, you need to build up license revenue of INR 85 crore, INR 90 crore. It's not that it's a stable business like service business. So we need to sign up this INR 90 crore license fees every quarter, which is close to $11 million to $12 million new licenses, which is a license year fee.

Okay. And lastly, from my side, reason for this tax reversal? And how much more of this is left and what should be the ETR we should build for FY '22?

That we can just respond to you, the tax rate, some of the numbers, Saranu will respond to you separately. I think in this call will not be that appropriate. You can just respond Dolat.

Sure, Arun. I'll respond.

Next, we have Amit. Please ask your question.

Congratulations on terrific set of number, Arun and congratulations to your team as well. So just one quick question I had, like with regards to the split of the license revenue versus your regular stuff. So like, okay, do you have any guidance going forward on that if the license revenue is going to increase from here onwards -- percentage, I mean percentage split?

Yes. Idea is -- focus is cloud and recurring revenue. So the recurring revenue is a key focus. If you look at the cloud revenue and SaaS revenue growth this quarter is substantially large. So if INR 240 crore is our annual run rate on the cloud revenue business, which is -- and that's where the company strength comes in. So if you look at our competitive landscape of nCino or so first cycle we competing against our regular player like Finastra, Temenos, Avaloq was our competition. Now we are moving towards the competition, which is a cloud-based subscription based competition like nCinos. NCino is a company, which is listed in e U.S. There is a company, which is -- Mambu is not listed yet, Palantir is listed over here. Those are the companies now we are -- getting into our technologies are now competing much better than Temenos, Finastra, but we are not getting into the next stage. So that way, we are the monitoring -- license monitoring focus is on cloud and subscription revenue. So we're just doing a balance between the 2. So you may have to look 2 things together. All the things linked to the License Link revenue, which is 54%. 54% is the number, which is a License Linked revenue. Quarter-on-quarter, in future, also, you'll see somewhere dip in the license, somewhere increase in the license. But that is not a predictable quarter-on-quarter number. But on an annualized basis, that number is good to see.

See. Just another question like also when I heard the conference call for the quarter 3, there was a guidance that you provided that you will be able to grow the earnings at 25% to 30% over the next 3 years, you have the visibility parties next year. So you still stick to that? Or you want to up the guidance with the recent...

No, we're not -- yes, we don't want to as of now. COVID is not out of the world as of now. And there's no need of increasing the guidance. We are still saying that our growth will be double-digit number. We will able to do the EPS growth of 30%, we'll able to do the EBITDA margin movement from 25% to 30%. So those are the 3 metrics we are looking to still manage. There's nothing difference over there. And this 26% to 25%, I think since you are managing a lot of cyclic business, steel business and big businesses where 0.5% or 0.6% makes a difference. In our business in the first 3 quarters, the growth happened from INR 40 crore to INR 60 crore to INR 80 crore. I think the technology businesses are very different from other businesses. So that's what I would like to highlight to you that these numbers of margin businesses are not serially or linearly linked, which is there in other industry segment because they don't have a leverage available. In technology business, all the IPs are already written if you sell 10x, we have all of it, 90% of it comes to the bottom line. And that's the beauty of this cloud business, which is there. So -- and that's how the profit trajectory can be designed. So please don't worry about this 1% up and 1% down in the margin. And that's what I also highlighted in CNBC 3 years back that when she was -- Lata was asking that you have a 7% margin, you will be 9% percent, 10% margin. Can you reach to 12% margin? Her point was 12% margin is a great number from 7%. When we did 25% margin, that makes a difference always.

No, I totally understand. And I'm a very loyal shareholder of Intellect and have been holding it for the very -- very early stage and I hope to grow along with the company.

Next, we have Mr. Mohit Jain.

Yes. Sir, one is on this recurring thing from advanced markets. Like this time, we had a big presentation from iGTB also on advanced markets. And I was hoping that our quarterly number will start improving. So this time, also, the growth came from India. So what could be the reason and from a deal pipeline perspective, do you expect these numbers to change materially next year?

I think the -- it's an overall business, Mohit. I think we don't look at it every time that every -- some pieces, every time sometime advance market will give some high numbers, sometimes India will give some good numbers. I think that's a beauty of the portfolio management that we are able to consistently grow even last quarter to INR 382 crore to INR 394 crore with a currency rate coming down to 72.90 is a good growth from that perspective. So I think we'll manage the portfolio growth rather than individual piece, and that's why we don't want to announce the individual revenue line. Somebody -- some people are asking question that gives us separate revenue streams of GCB, GTB and [indiscernible] that's why we don't want to announce those numbers because it unnecessary creates a micro detail rather than looking at a consistent reputable growth. What we have promised to you 3 years back that we'll be profitable in 2021 and start generating 20% EBITDA margin. We demonstrated 25% EBITDA margin instead of 20% EBITDA margin. We'd given a surprise to the investors at that time, 20% EBITDA, when we were talking about 2019 was doubtful that we -- can we do 20% EBITDA when we did 25% EBITDA this year. That's a big surprise to most of the investor from that perspective. So I think that we are in that stage of monetization and that monetization on the cloud and subscription revenue will have ups and downs to some extent on a quarter basis. And -- but overall trajectory is important. So if we are winning a lot of cloud deal, it will not be showing up in $54 million because those cloud deals will be booked only after -- on a monthly basis. They are not booked upfront. And I mentioned to you, cloud deal of 5-year at a $100,000 per month will be bigger than a $5 million or $10 million license, which we would have booked in a quarter. So that's a difference over here because there's a mix of cloud and subscription and the license revenue. In usual piece by piece, you should not monitor that's what my request to you.

Not even on an annual basis?

Annual basis, it's okay. But if I'm choosing to get to the cloud revenue over the license, then my license growth may not happen, but cloud growth may happen. If I'm -- I'm demonstrating 47% growth on cloud and subscription revenue, one should be more happier than the license growth number because I will be choosing to -- this is my choice I'm making for giving a longer returns to the investor rather than shorter return to the investor.

One more, sir, if I can. On the order backlog, do you -- like, can you share any number for this year?

Order backlog is similar to the last quarter, it's around INR 1,200 crores kind of order backlog. But as an industry practice, it's not there in product to companies order backlog kind of scenarios. So we are now off from order backlog publishing. Your cloud revenue can be a good forecast of the order backlog and the AMC could be a forecast for the order backlog and implementation revenues is not critical focus for us to grow. Our focus is cloud subscription and License linked revenue from 54% to 60%.

Next, we have Mr. Mayank [ Bhavla ]. You can ask your question. Probably 1 or 2 questions, Arun.

Yes.

Mayank. Are you there? Yes, Mayank. Please go ahead.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, my first question is to Rajesh, sir. When you spoke about the TCO being 10% to 12% cheaper than our competitors on the back of a powerful back-end engine. Could you just please expand a little bit on that? And second question was to Arun, sir. Regarding -- in the beginning, you said that we can replicate a cross streaming tech from Netflix and implement that in our offering. Could you just show us a little light on that?

Sure. Let me take the first question, Mayank. So I think when we say TCO from a bank's perspective, we are looking at software, we're looking at hardware. We're looking at implementation, life cycle, right? How quickly does this product get implemented versus our competitors. When you put all the cost together because of the powerful back end engine and the open API architecture that we have, the benchmark studies that we have done versus our competitors seem to indicate to us that we are 10% to 12% cheaper than what a comparable price competitor software would cost to the bank. So that's what I meant by the total TCO.

On Netflix technology, there's multiple database. Corporate data is very huge data. Each large corporate like Reliance or Coca Cola or GE, they will have thousand -- hundreds of accounts, and those needs to be visible on the basis of the balancing and liquidity of those accounts. For that, we are using a data engineering Pegasus engine, which is collecting this data from the redo log of Oracle, if you're a technology person. And then streaming that into the front layer and doing a cash data management to give them out over analytics. So normally, when you have a screen, you click on it to get analytics. Over here, you have a screen, just when you take a cursor there, and cursor will be sensed by the person and able to deliver the complete analytics over there. So it's a completely next-generation analytics engine for corporate bankers to make faster decisions in the industry. And that's where the synchronization of the entire back end to front-end technologies, we inspire from Netflix, we pick up some open source from Netflix. And then in last 4 years of our working, we are able to streamline for banking, which has gone live in a few U.S. bank and U.S. banks are loving it. So there are some questions on talent. Talent, I think the industry is having a talent issue right now. The growth of the demand of the talent has gone up. So we are working in looking at it. If you have to do some rationalization of the compensation or working with some other key people. So that's a continuous journey for doing it. We are able to attract better talent because we are a product company versus the service company. So we are able to attract a good talent as Manish was putting it. But still, that's a challenge. That's a challenge you need to recognize. So these are the few questions I could see in a box, which you have positioned.

There are 2 more questions, Arun. Can we read out?

Yes, please.

Next we have Mr. Dhruv Shah.

Congratulations on a very good set of numbers. The first question is on -- you had a fantastic quarter, 12 wins in a quarter. How many of them are in cloud? And how have you fared vis-à-vis competition in your own view?

So I think on technology perspective, almost 80% deals are in cloud delivery. Some of the -- the difference in the cloud deals today is whether on-premise cloud or a public cloud. So we have -- as a public cloud, which Intellect Cloud is there, we started getting these deals only last year. So we have 2 or 3 deals in Intellect Cloud, which is a public cloud versus 4 to 5 deals are in a cloud of the client and rest of the 4 to 5 years is in -- on-premise old technology, delivery on-premise deal. So that's have one element. So we have seen the traction of coming to Intellect cloud, and that's a big change happening in this year, 2021.

How have you fared vis-à-vis competition, Arun?

Competition, that's -- getting an entry into Germany niches is an important point or France or Canada. We had a competition Backbase in Canada and winning against Backbase, winning against all the big players in Europe and selecting Indian vendor is a big, big success point for 2021, and that's what we are celebrating in the beginning itself. The beauty is that we are able to build up this 300 -- almost 900 APIs across Intellect. Rajesh itself has 300 APIs, Manish has a close to 350, 360 APIs. This composable and contextual is a winning proposition today. And that's why we are so much excited right now.

So if I can just add to that Arun. So I think what we are seeing when we compete in the market and in the deals that we participate grew, we are facing competitors like Temenos, nCinos, Backbase, the 800-pound gorilla. And we are able to hold fort against them and win against them. So in the deals that we participate, right, we are neck-to-neck against our competitors.

That's very encouraging. Arun, my next question is, how much mining is possible in Société Générale as well as in oHHo, the German retailer, where you got enrolled into and in Société Générale , which is one of the leading banks in France. I'm sure there are other opportunities within the same account.

Yes. So there are 2 areas. One is in the same account, which we grow and those opportunities are there. And -- but immediately it doesn't happen. But the first year, we need to deliver first solution to SocGen for next 12 months to 18 months. And then we establish our credentials to get a next lead. But whatever the wins we had in the last 2 years. And there, we have gone live, we have -- we can establish our credential to grow -- for the growth and cross-sell playing. So the -- so we are now able to grow is because we have demonstrated a good NPS score and system has gone live. So whenever some client gives a good deal to us, it takes 18 months later to go sell ourselves.

And my last question is, how do you compare yourself with nCino and Palantir. NCino is into the banking software, and obviously, Palantir is a big data company. So when your big data revenue starts coming in and how do you compare yourself with both these companies?

Rajesh, nCino, if you can just mention?

NCino is a great platform, right? And it's built on the salesforce.com. So they have a very strong relationship with Salesforce, and they have many clients mostly in America market, right? And they are not trying to build a business outside America coming to Western Europe, et cetera. So when we are seeing them in the market, right, we have -- and I think I covered that in the last technology session also, we have certain strengths of why we win against with group cloud players like nCinos, Mambu, et cetera, just to give you a little bit the domain that we bring, the vertical domain that we bring, none of these players are able to bring. And this is -- this comes from a BFSI legacy and the pedigree that we have. So I think we have certain advantages when a bank choose -- when a bank compares us versus nCino because of our domain functionality and our pedigree that we bring in. From an architecture perspective, I would say nCino and us are almost at par, right, because of the new architecture that we have and they are cloud one. So overall, in that mix, when we are looking at some of these clients, we are seeing a head-to-head fight between nCino and us.

I can share a little bit, Arun on the Palantir thing. So Dhruv, the Palantir model of the platform on the cloud is very similar to what we have built. However, the data, and we've got thousands of data points coming from multiple sources that we help a client identify and compose and consume these data points, along with their own data, and some of this data that we bring, and this is very current and relevant data to help them triangulate it for taking decisions. So our platform capability is similar. Palantir, of course, started with a lot of government business for data and then extended it to other areas. I think we believe that the ability to take data and put the user journey in such a way that it can help our BFSI client, improve the decisioning, speed and quality is where the difference is because there's data everywhere. But if you can't really put it together very well, you don't get the outcome that the customer is looking for. And that's what we saw, as I mentioned earlier with IDX. It is also running on that same data platform, but it helps you not just extract data from documents, where the competition may be multimillion-dollar companies like OFACs, et cetera. I think the ability to take the extracted data and to validate it with our data platform and then triangulate it to take a decision in rapid pace, I think is where the difference is. So from a Palantir perspective, we have sort of similar approach, but very focused on our customer journeys right now but can be scalable as we scale the platform. For IDX, for several other business clients. As you know, we sort of launched Magic Aadhaar, which is a way in which we just validate, extract Aadhaar information very efficiently. So similar type of models, we are looking at adding in various other areas.

Arun, can we take 1 or 2 more questions?

[indiscernible].

Because it's already 20 minutes?

20 minutes ahead. Just 1 more question, maybe.

One more question.

Next, we have Mr. Ravi Mehta from the Financial.

Am I audible?

Yes, please Ravi. Go on.

Congrats on a good set of numbers. Just wanted to clarify one thing that you saw an uptick in the subscription revenues in Q4. And unlike license, this seems to be more steady. And can we -- this to be kind of a recurring number and growing further, unlike a license, which we can see up and down?

Yes. And that's right. Our whole focus is what you are looking for to increase the SaaS revenue and recurring revenue because recurring revenue is most important and most valuable because once you sign it up, it's a next 10-year profile. And it grows off of that. And license revenue has a leading to the AMC. So both revenues are important, but license -- the value of the SaaS revenue is much highly valuable on your returns to the investor.

And can we also draw some conclusion that the recent improvement in DSO days and also gross margins, can we attribute it to some point in growing SaaS revenues?

Two things. Yes. So SaaS revenue can give us lesser DSOs. Definitely, that's an important point. But more important point is our design thing in application and delivery. So in banking industry, the large transformation deals even doesn't -- it gets extended. We are able to deliver a large transformational deals in less than a year. So we transform which used to take years with our technology strength, we are able to deliver now in months, 6 months, 9 months we are able to do the transformation. And that's where the DSOs are coming down. So if I -- DSOs are quite right now coming down substantially. if I remove the India DSOs, our other DSOs will be less than 100 days, non-India DSOs. So it's improving quarter-on-quarter because our technologies are improving quarter-on-quarter. And it's just a technology strength, which will make up a DSO better. Ravi.

Thanks, everybody, for joining this call. If still you have any questions, you can please write to us or call us for the same.

Just copy all those questions on the mailbox, Praveen, and yes, see how much we can answer afterwards.

Okay.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you, everybody.

Thank you. Thank you.