Intuit Inc. (INTU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome, everybody. Good evening and good afternoon, depending on where you are. I am delighted to welcome Intuit to the conference. We're very fortunate to have Founder and CEO of Credit Karma, Ken Lin, with us to talk about the Credit Karma business. Welcome, Ken.

Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

Yes. Absolutely. We're thrilled to have you. It's an exciting story and so really looking forward to learning more.

So Ken, since you're the founder and you've been with Credit Karma since the very beginning and would love to get your perspective on kind of the impetus for the company in the early days, what was that? What were some of the market gaps that you sought to solve for when you founded the company back in 2007?

Yes, that's a great question. And if you'll indulge me, I'm going to go into a little bit more detail because I think it actually sets up a lot of our framing, but also how we operate. And I'll start with the consumer problem. And this might not be a problem that necessarily the audience feels, but at the end of the day, for most consumers, finances are extremely overwhelming, right? There is a real challenge. And the #1 problem that we hear from our user base, but at most of our research is that consumers have a challenge making ends meet. And that's really the fundamental problem that we're here to solve the Credit Karma. And let me -- specifically, I think there's 3 or 4 areas that I want to delve into and that we really looked at from a platform perspective. A vast majority of consumers actually have a hard time determining which products they're qualified for. So just to throw a stat out there, 60% to 70% of credit applications are declined. So you think about all of the resources necessary to go and create that credit application, and at the end of the day, it gets declined. And that is a fundamental problem for consumers. Secondarily, most consumers don't know what interest rate or the pricing that they're going to get for a particular product until they go through the underwriting process. So what it really means is you don't know if you're -- what you're going to get until you get approved and apply, but all of that process is full of friction. And then lastly, the process itself is quite tedious. Most credit applications are 5 or 6 pages, they take 15, 20 minutes. Oftentimes, you're on your phone, and that really creates a problem in the space. And I think that's the challenge that we're fundamentally focused on solving at Credit Karma which is that problem for consumers, which is to simplify their financial lives, make the process simple, create transparency and certainty in the space. So that's the consumer problem that we face. Now I think there is a similar problem, but a little bit more nuanced and different from a financial institution perspective, right? For them, they spend over $50 billion a year trying to acquire new customers. And for them, they really care about finding the right financial profile of the customer. Can you imagine a bank that is spending $100 million, well they want to find an ideal target customer based on credit, based on income, and that becomes challenging even in a digital world. So that's where Credit Karma steps in, which is we're able to play in that center spot of being able to understand the consumer's financial profile but at the same time understand the requirement that the banks are looking for in terms of their target customer. And in so doing, we create, I think, value for everyone involved. For a consumer, they get an experience, we're able to really help them hone in on the products that they're qualified for, give them the pricing before they apply. And when they want to apply, we can make it as simple as a 2- or 3-step process. For our banking partners, they get real efficiency because they get customers that are qualified, they don't like to decline customers either as you think about brand and NPS. That's just a customer that's not going to come back in the future when you think about declinations. And then lastly, there's real cost associated with underwriting. You have to pull credit, you have to pull all these other data attributes, you have to deal with that angry person on the phone who calls you after you decline them. So that's the opportunity that we see at Credit Karma, which is really simplifying the financial lives of consumers, creating benefit for both us, our members and our partners alike.

That's exciting. Thanks, Ken, and that's a great overview and segue into my next question which is, in the past, I know you've mentioned that free credit scores really aren't free and Credit Karma has a different approach to monetization. Can you elaborate on that first part and the second part, please? What did you mean by credit scores aren't free? There are a lot that claim to be free, what are the costs associated with that, direct and indirect? And then how are you approaching things differently?

Sure. Well, 14 years ago when we started Credit Karma, the industry was full of what's kind of coined as negative opt out subscription models, right? And the model there was, hey, get your free credit score, but in so doing, provide us your credit card number. And parts of the terms of service are we're going to enroll you in this credit-monitoring product. And if you don't opt out within 7 days or 30 days, you're going to be charged anywhere from $19.99 to $29.99 a month. And that tends to happen until you decide or realized that you're being charged these fees. So 13, 14 years ago when we started Credit Karma, the idea there was, well, I think we can solve that problem. We could provide a truly free credit score. And I'm proud to say today, we've given away over 4 billion free credit scores in our history, and we've never charged a single consumer on our platform for those services, and we think that's fundamentally important. But the opportunity goes back to something bigger than that. The key here is when consumers are looking for their credit, what they're really asking for is what products am I qualified for, right? That's really the indirect question. And that was the correlation that really helped build our business is that consumers were coming to Credit Karma right before they were interested in credit card or personal loan or mortgage or an auto loan, and that's really the connection that drives value for our member base. Now in those 13 years, we've expanded beyond credit scores. We've moved into a lot of adjacencies, but all with the idea that: one it should be within the umbrella of Financial Services; but two, it should be all in pursuit of our mission, all in pursuit of our goals of helping people navigate this landscape and in many ways, helping the most challenged people, the most -- the people who are most vulnerable, who don't have the top 1% of income or the top 1% of scores navigate this landscape.

That's great. That's great. Sounds like a great motivating charter there. Excellent. And maybe just if you could elaborate on how Credit Karma and Intuit came together. What were some of the early discussions? What was the motivating factors there to kind of bring the 2 companies together? That would be great, please.

Yes, you got it. Well, so this -- I guess, Sasan and I started via a mutual friend, mutual introduction, as it always starts. And candidly, I'm not sure if Sasan knew much about Credit Karma. I didn't know all that much about Intuit. But I think maybe the one thing that stands out most to me is the alignment around mission, right? Intuit's mission statement is to power prosperity around the world and Credit Karma is to create a world where everyone has a path their financial dreams. And when you really think about it, it's different words, but at the end of the day, it's really the same destination. I think that's the thing that is most inspiring, that's the thing that I'm very passionate about, that in many ways to me is the legacy and I've always talked about Credit Karma's mission as being the top thing for me. And through a number of iterations, through a number of conversations, I thought about how do we make that more real? And became really apparent to me that a combination with Intuit was a great enabler of that. And just to kind of walk you through the examples, we had effectively the same destination. And quite candidly, we have the same thesis going into our respective businesses, right? We were focused on helping people find the lowest cost of credit at a transparent rate, powered through data, I mean the ability, and we added tax to actually add more of that data to kind of pursue that mission. And on the flip side of that, I think Intuit is just doing something very similar. They started with a tax case, they added something like Turbo, right, Turbo and Mint, which enabled sort of the equivalent to Credit Karma. We were starting from different places with view of the opportunity and the destination to be the same. And I think that's really how it came together. But most importantly and the thing that I think Sasan and I both proved, convinced each other of is we were better together and that we were going to the same destination. At the end of the day, we'd be able to get there faster and be able to be more impactful if we did it together. And I got to say, depending on when you put the time frame, whether it's a year, 6 months since we've closed, 7 months since we've closed, or the 2 or 3 years that we've been talking, I think all of that has been proven to be true.

That's great. And Intuit actually has its roots in personal finance early on, very early on with Quicken, essentially pioneering the personal finance category for digital. And I guess what does that say about Intuit today and the potential fit with Credit Karma?

Well, I think that's right. I mean I think that history, right, is exactly right in terms of we might have started in separate places, but the mission, the vision and everything we're trying to achieve is really focused around consumers, small businesses. It's the fact that we have to innovate together, and we're going to bring innovation and disruption to the space in a way that consumers haven't seen before. We're going to get people access to their dollars faster. We're going to be able to create a bunch of insights around how their money is working for them. I mean that's -- that, I think, is the power of the Intuit and Credit Karma combination. And to your point about the storied past and the sort of that vision, I think it started 30 years for them ago and it started for us 13 years ago.

Yes, absolutely. That's great. And Credit Karma is already very profitable, I think 37% operating margin. How are you thinking about growth versus profitability? How does that change now as part of Intuit in terms of your outlook and your philosophy for balancing growth and profitability?

Well, I think that's one of the best parts of us coming together. I think first is that Intuit is focused on managing margins at a company level, which I think is great. You've heard me talk a lot about already the idea that the mission and the impact are the most important thesis. And what I would say there is this allows us to focus on bringing that product innovation forward and allows us to focus on investing big in a way that I think if we're a stand-alone company would be maybe a different profile. And with that said, there's really 3 or 4 areas that we've been focused on in terms of growth for Credit Karma. I think one is certainly -- you've seen a lot of momentum over the last quarter. It's in part to the acceleration that we see from Intuit. But at the same time, it's also a function of the investments that we've made over the last 1.5 years with COVID, in the last 5 years in terms of strategy, but the key here is we've been investing in things like Lightbox, which is our proprietary platform, data platform that allows our partners to upload their underwriting models on to Credit Karma. That creates more efficiency from a sort of revenue per impression perspective. Things like COVID were an interesting tailwind for us and that they helped some of our new verticals grow, which contributes to the overall growth of the company as we hit new all-time highs in auto, in mortgage. And then lastly, our continued focus on driving value to our members in the form of new features and products that will drive engagement. And if I had one through line through all of our businesses, if you do that well, you can drive engagement, you can build trust, and all the other good things tend to happen. I think those are the things that we're seeing. Those are the things that are sort of powering our margins. Now with that said, COVID was always -- it's been challenging for everyone. But with that, we pulled back on a lot of our expenditures and getting it ramped back up. It's something that's going to take a little bit of time. All to say, we are focused on investing for the future, growing and being disruptive and innovative in the space.

Absolutely. No, great. That's great to hear. And how do you think about the market opportunity? I mean you could think about it in a very broad sense and just the number of consumers in the U.S. and in U.K. How do you think about the numerator and the denominator, if you will, for -- or P times Q, if you will, for the TAM? And what do you think about the number of the potential users out there? And then what can ARPU look like over time? And what is the path to achieving a potential ARPU number over time when you think about the opportunity more broadly?

Sure. Well -- so today, the Credit Karma platform has over 110 million unique consumers on our platform, right? And we say unique because it's unique by Social Security number, and we also make sure that people can't have multiple accounts and they've all been validated with the Bureau. So there's not a vanity metric there. Now what's important to note is that with that, we see all of the credit lines and the new financial products that our members are taking out. So one, a really large base, right, a big TAM. Now within that, we have a lot of verticals that we can go after. So our largest verticals today, our core verticals which are credit cards and personal loans, there's almost a perfect correlation to the size of the verticals that we have relative to the time in market that we've had those. So our largest are credit cards and personal loans. And credit card started 12 years ago, personal loans probably started 10 years ago. So that's certainly one opportunity. When we look at the overall market, 60 million new credit cards are taken out each and every year, and that's just general purpose credit cards, that number is almost double when you add retail and the sort of merchant-specific credit products. So that is a really big opportunity for us. And that's just one category. So now you add in personal loans, you add in mortgages, you add in home loans, add in student loans. You get a sense of a sheer number and the magnitude of opportunities in terms of what credit products consumers are taking. And by the way, with that 110 million, we tend to over-index on millennials, Gen Z, and that's the group that tends to be sort of most in mark, right? As you can imagine, when you're 60 years old, you're probably not taking out new credit products, you probably have retirement and so on. So our demographic today is large. It's growing. It tends to be credit-focused. But at the same time, we realized that there's a big opportunity on the other side of the balance sheet as well. So for example, as our user base is moving beyond their first credit cards or auto loan and the mortgage, now they're starting to think about the asset side of it, which is part of the transition for us is thinking about things like Credit Karma Money, which is a checking account built from the ground up. It is our ability to play in assets in the long term. It's our ability to build these other features that also in auto insurance, for example, that are things that are squarely in the Financial Services realm but also are areas that 5 years ago, if they came to Credit Karma -- and people did -- to get their credit score before they would go out and apply for a mortgage, but we didn't have a mortgage offering. But today, we do, and that is one of our faster-growing verticals and at record highs last quarter. So give you a sense of both the scale but also the number of transactions that happened as I sort of started the conversation, over $50 billion a year is spent by Financial Services companies to acquire new customers. So we really think of that as the opportunity set for us as we think about all the dollars are being spent inefficiently, that create churn, that frustrate consumers, we think we can solve multiple problems at the same time.

Excellent. Excellent. And why don't we shift gears to a similar topic here on customer acquisition. Given the breadth of that market that you're going after, how do you go about acquiring customers through digital? And how do you measure sales efficiency with that regard? And how has that trended over time? And I'm sure the Credit Karma brand, as it's grown, has had a lot to do with that.

Well, yes. I mean I think that's a great news. I mean, in many ways, we get so many users from a word-of-mouth perspective. Even through COVID, we have great acquisitions numbers just because of the word-of-mouth aspect of the brand that we're able to create. Beyond that sort of organic growth, obviously, with Intuit, there's a lot of new opportunity here. They drove 40% of our acquisitions last quarter. That's just the beginning. And I'm always struck by the fact that we're only 6 months, 7 months past close and we're able to make amazing traction on that front. But that's certainly an area for us. And then the other areas are going to be -- there's 110 million consumers on our platform today. When you think about the markets that we're in, that number is going to be twice as big. But those are opportunities. And then our -- we've -- well, we've been very strict and rigorous in terms of the way that we measure the discipline that we have. We tend to focus on a CAC efficiency and sort of a multiple of LTV that we've historically worked on. And we think there's room to grow. But the key here is engagement on Credit Karma, it's one of the key aspects of growth for us. And going back to the model, driving value through engagement and moving into new verticals, that's where our primary focus is.

Got it. No, that's helpful. And how do you think about the competitive landscape? I'm sure there are different categories of how you would parse that. But what are those categories? Who are some of the competitors within those when you think about that?

Yes. I mean I think it's really interesting. I'm sure everyone says this or thinks this, but I'll give you a couple of proof points. I mean I think on one dimension, when you think about what we're doing on behalf of our members and our consumers, I don't think there is a competitor of scale. And I say that because no one has tried to put the various endpoints of consumers' financial life together framed through credit card, right? So our ability to connect that checking account to the credit card account to the student loan to the retirement account, I think that's unique. And I don't think anyone has really gotten there at scale. Now if you think about it from an advertising perspective, right, where are the dollars being spent today by the biggest institutions, by Bank of America, for example? Well, they tend to be through the digital channels that you would expect. So that would be the Googles and the Facebooks of the world. I would note that direct mail is actually a big component of acquisitions for a lot of fintech as well as traditional brick-and-mortar banks and then offline media. But what I would note is we bring a level of efficiency that looks a lot more like direct mail, and that really focuses around the data aspect. So I'm sure many of the audience, many of you, you specifically, that probably received direct mail prequalifications in your mailbox. And the process there is banks go out and say, we're looking for this type of customer, and the credit bureaus come back with the file and then mail all those users at $0.50 a postage to print, and you don't know what you're going to get back. I think that is a particularly interesting channel that I think if there was a directly comparable market that we're going after a competitor, I would say it's direct mail because there, we're more efficient. We can reach just as many consumers in many ways. It's data-driven, it's instant, it's real time and that's the area we feel like there can be a lot of innovation, just to name a few.

Absolutely. Interesting. Okay. Great. That's a great overview on that. And then why don't we shift gears to the partners? What does the typical Credit Karma partner look like? Is it this traditional financial institution like big banks like us or smaller credit unions, both? Maybe just to kind of parse out the partner landscape as well and what does that look like and who are some of these key partners for you.

Yes, absolutely. Well, so to start, Credit Karma is a platform, right? So as a platform, we really think about being a service and value to everyone in the spectrum whether you're the sort of the newest, smallest credit union or maybe sort of the largest national bank, it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, our focus is on the consumer and providing them as much transparency, as much access as possible. So we'll run the gamut in terms of the financial partners that we have on the site. But the key here is we want to provide a consistent experience, one that adds value. So it goes back to the idea of, well, consumers on Credit Karma are really focused on finding the right Financial Services products and we want to ensure a platform where banks can find the right consumer, but at the end of the day, it's tailored around a consumer experience. It's tailored around selling these key parts which is, am I going to be qualified for that product? Can I really be transparent in understanding the pricing of that particular product? And then lastly, can you take a lot of the friction out of the application process? And we think if you do those things well, one, people will come back over time because it's just a better experience. But two, and maybe more importantly, people will be able to make ends meet and advance from an economic perspective when they have equal footing as maybe sort of the most advantaged of us. And I think that's an important aspect of our mission and what we do day in and day out.

Excellent. Excellent. That's great. And maybe we could -- on that topic, if you could illustrate a partner that's been with Credit Karma for a longer period of time. What do they start with? What kind of services are they offering through the partnership? Through the platform? And how has that evolved over time? Maybe a partner that's has been with you for a longer period of time, maybe perhaps a larger bank, it could be smaller bank as well. But what would you highlight there?

Yes. Let me talk a little bit about our Lightbox infrastructure, the value it creates and how it all works. But I think it creates probably the right train here. So we have a lot of partners, and I won't name a specific one. But the engagement tends to look like this, Credit Karma started off with the idea that we really wanted to solve this problem around certainty. And to create a little bit of context, this is important because over the last, I'd say, 30 years of Internet, there's been a lot of great technology innovations, there's a lot of new disruption in innovation. I would argue that credit underwriting, credit decisioning for the consumer has probably gotten worse. It's gotten more sophisticated, more complicated for the lender, but worse for the consumer. And to give you an example, 30 years ago, if you were a credit score of 700, it might be a very binary decision. Credit score of 700, you're approved. Credit score of 699, you're declined, right? Very simple idea. Now with the advent of machine learning, big data and compute power, banks have deconstructed that credit score into all the constituent parts and created their own secret sauce that are on proprietary underwriting models. And what was before a very simple credit decision has turned into something a lot more complicated, and that's the value that we bring to the ecosystem. So now an underwriting model might be 100 attributes, it might be 1,000 attributes, depending on the partner. As a consumer, you might be an 800 credit score, but you might ultimately still be declined for a product because some attribute that you're not aware of you simply don't qualify for, right? An example would be you own an adjustable rate interest during the financial crisis in California, right? It didn't matter how good your credit was, nobody is going to lend to you because of strategic defaults. Well, those would be the things that our algorithms would pick up on. And when you do that, when you create that platform, a few things kind of wonderful happen is consumers know ahead of time as to whether they're qualified for our product. Banks can be assured that their approval rates via credit card applicants are going to much higher quality. So that's a little bit of the journey. So partners would come on to Credit Karma, just kicking the tires a little bit, so to speak, right? Our data scientists would start targeting and really isolating, oh, this is the target customer that bank X is looking for. Over time, what we've been able to do is create trust with our financial institutions and wherein 10 years ago, we would have a team of data scientists who would reverse engineer the underwriting model because banks would be mum about who they are looking for, but we would get pretty good at it. Intuit today where, and particularly during COVID, some of our partners are actually starting to share their underwriting models with us, and what that, again, does is it makes for a much more certain experience for our users, a much more qualified applicant on the back end of that. And that's sort of the transition is that they start with a simple program, we drive volume, we drive efficiency and we drive scale. And when we do those things, what we find is our partners tend to stay with us for a long time and that's the growth that we see in processing and in multiple of our verticals.

Excellent. Excellent. And with regard to the partner ecosystem, is the focus on recruiting more partners? Are there certain categories that you're going after more? You mentioned personal loans increasingly is an area that you're going after. Is that a different set of partners? And I guess, just generally, is the focus on just going deeper with existing partners or recruiting more partners or both?

Yes. Well, I think we try to be very deliberate in our strategy in the verticals that we go after, right? So we talked a little bit about credit cards, personal loans and those are core growth verticals. Those are the ones that have been around for a long time. Our emerging verticals are going to be auto, mortgage, auto insurance. So that's our growth verticals, and those are at all-time highs. And what I would note here is we're always going to be focused on adding more verticals but, again, being very deliberate about that. And just to kind of paint a little bit of picture of the things that we can be doing and just taking the mortgage example, there's a long way to go. But if you think about the mortgage origination process and, again, most banks do this, is oftentimes, it's effectively creating either a physical or a digital briefcase portfolio of documents that ultimately gets sold, right, through securitization to Freddie, Danny and so on. And the process itself is, well, you need to determine credit eligibility. You need to go ask the person for their W-2s, their tax returns, their bank statements, right? And that's the document or the portfolio of document that ultimately gets sold as part of the loan. Well, that's a real opportunity for us, right, because if you think about the capabilities of Credit Karma plus Intuit, we have most of those pieces, right? And in so doing, we're able to digitize that brief case, we're able to provide all the documents seamlessly to that loan originator at the end of the day, and in so doing lowering the cost, lowering the friction and creating a much more efficient marketplace. So our goal is to go vertical by vertical, create a compelling experience that both drives engagement, trust and then ultimately, growth. And you've talked quite a bit about the ones that we've already invested in. But along the lines, insurance is very important for us, assets, retirement, checking, savings. Those are all in the product road map for us long term.

Great. Great. And when we shift gears to international opportunity, you've made an acquisition here I think in late 2018 to expand in the U.K. I think TransUnion's Noddle business. How has that evolved in that market? Where are the efforts to expand internationally today?

Yes. So we're in the U.K. via Noddle, we expand into Canada as well I think 5 years ago. And all with the idea that there are commonalities in markets that we look for, right? One is a competitive Financial Services market where there's choice, where there are people competing for consumers; the two is sort of a centralized credit bureau or data bureau that is driving all our decisions; and three is consumer access and Internet adoption. And those are the prerequisites. And our stride is a little bit different in each country, but for example, in the U.K., one of the things that we very much are both aware of it and are really trying to figure out is things like open banking, right? They're ahead of the U.S. in terms of the regulations and wanting to make banking more open. Well, the question there is what will that look like when the U.S. opens up? And if you think in many ways, the U.K. will be a leading indicator of it for us and as such, we'll be able to get purview into, hey, what happens when you're able to move your assets and your accounts relatively seamlessly? I mean I always use the data portability or the phone portability, that happened with mobile phones. Once you can move your phone number, it created all new sets of competitive aspects and all new consumer behavior. I think that will exist for us as well in the U.S. and we want to make sure that we're ahead of that trend and can kind of see it and all the opportunities it creates.

Excellent. And Credit Karma generated meaningful revenue upside in Intuit through Q3 and could you just help us understand what drove that outperformance? It was significant.

Yes, absolutely. Well, I mean, I think, partly, there's -- I'll categorize as sort of internal and external, right? The externalities of the current thesis, we definitely saw a dip due to the uncertainty in COVID sort of last year, first half last year. That has changed. I think that's the externality. But I think the key thesis that are driving our business are the investment areas that we've created. So Lightbox. In the most recent quarter, 40% of our credit card transactions went through that Lightbox platform. Over 30% of our personal loans went through to the Lightbox platform. And what we gained through Lightbox is efficiency, right? It goes back to this idea that approval rates are relatively low, on average, and Lightbox moves it past 90%, that makes our channel more efficient for both us and our partners. It's a continued investment in new verticals. I mean one of the COVID tailwinds was -- I often use the example of a rainforest, the tall trees get all the sunlight. And for us, those tall trees were credit cards and personal loans. And when that took a backseat and was more quiet, it allowed our auto loans, our mortgage verticals to really grow, to really optimize their funnels and create products that were more compelling, and we're still seeing that growth today. And then lastly, it goes back to engagement. For us, we are constrained by engagement. We are constrained by the number of users on our platform. We're not constrained by the demand of our Financial Services partners. So for us, our ability to create trust, to get people to engage, and we've got amazing engagement numbers there, 37 million unique people come to Credit Karma each month on average over 4x each month. So our ability to move those metrics ultimately will be the drivers of growth. And all of those investments and all of those trends are playing into what you saw in Q3, and we're really excited about it because it's a reaffirmation of the strategy but also the focus that we've put on in driving value for our members and really focusing on the technology side of the world, all of Lightbox, all of the new verticals and products that we're creating in those verticals.

That's exciting. And we have time for one more question here, Ken. This has been great. Sasan mentioned on that earnings call that 40% of Credit Karma's new users came from the TurboTax installed base. So obviously, some real interplay between those 2 businesses. Can you elaborate on that? What is that? And how is the company driving that kind of cross-sell, if you will?

Yes. I mean it was incredibly exciting for us. So 40% of our new acquisitions, as you mentioned. But there's a few components to that and I think are really proof that, first, is our ability to put Turbo users onto our platform. So that was a platform that was helping consumers find Financial Services products. Those users are actually more engaged than Credit Karma organic users. So I think that speaks volumes around the quality. The second piece is our ability to integrate, and I generally don't use that word, we talk a lot about acceleration. I'll use integration, this term, the TurboTax experience into Credit Karma and, more specifically, Credit Karma Money. So if you think about drivers in engagement and one of the challenging things about checking accounts or debit accounts in general is actually funding those accounts. And here in just the first 6 months -- less than that when you actually think about the time we spent integrating that particular product -- we're able to put tax refund dollars directly into Credit Karma money accounts. And that has been a tremendous tailwind and a great validation of proof point. And the thing that gets really exciting is we've had 6 months, 7 months to do this and we're excited about it. But each and every year, TurboTax helps consumers achieve $88 billion worth of tax refunds. So our ability to tie into that, to provide more benefits, access to those dollars sooner or faster, absolutely within the vision, and that brings great excitement for both us, TurboTax is assigning everyone on the teams.

That's great. Well, Ken, we're out of time here. This has been great. Thank you so much for your time. It's been incredibly insightful. Really looking forward to watching the business evolve as part of the Intuit family and thank you again for your participation in the conference.

My pleasure. So fun. Thank you.

Thank you.