Investis Holding SA (IREN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Investor's Full Year 2020 Results Conference Call and live webcast. I am Alice the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Mr. Stéphane Bonvin, CEO of the Investis Group. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes. Well, ladies and gentlemen, good morning. Welcome to the Investis full year 2020 result presentations, and thank you for your interest in our company. I have today with me our CFO, René Häsler; the Investor Relation, Laurence Bienz. The agenda will be as follow, I will start with the highlights and then I will go through the market trends in this COVID-19 environment. And then René Häsler will present you the financial overview. And I will conclude with the outlook, before the Q&A session. So highlights 2020. So if we look back to this very special year, we can say that Investis had an impressive result despite the pandemic. On the group level these excellent result increased our NAV per share to -- before deferred tax to CHF 74.8 per share and this gives us a very solid capital structure with a gross LTV of now 37.6% and and equity ratio of 53%. On properties level, the excellent portfolio quality gave us a positive revaluations effect of CHF 79 million. Due to some disposal of commercial properties in Geneva, now 95% of our portfolio is residential. And this residential market was affected by the pandemic. And then one of the most important metrics for us is the like-for-like rent, it had increased by 1.6%. In real estate services, thanks our digitalized organization, we could continue to provide 100% of our services. We had some impact on top line, but we could increase our EBIT margin to 8.6%. So finally, we can say that our model is resilient in good and bad weather. And going forward, we will continue to focus on properties with residential real estate in Lake Geneva region in city center on national services with recurring income. COVID-19 implication. Of course, we had some impact on our businesses, but thanks our agility, our dedicated employees we could reduce the impact of the pandemic. On the property side, so thanks our very low exposure to commercial real estate. We had only an impact of CHF 200,000 on -- for rent reduction. Q1, Q2, high vacancy in serviced apartment we decided to exit from this segment. And now all the flats are rented to permanent lease. We had also an impact on our like-for-like rent increase by 0.3%. In real estate services, no short-time work has been declared. We had higher staff costs due to additional workloads in property management. And we had some revenue shortfall in property management, it was due to rent reduction. And in facility services, of course, due to home office, less services were required. So conclude, our agility could reduce the impact of this pandemic. On the next slide, you can see that our agility is reflected also in our share performance. Of course, we had, like all the shares drop in March. But you can see that during the rest of the year, our share price recovered completely and compare the performance of the 2 real estate index and especially the share index, we really beat this -- clearly, this index. This means that the market sees in Investis a safe haven. So market trends in this COVID-19 environment. So Lake Geneva regions remains for us an attractive locations to show that we follow 4 metrics: The migration/demography; construction activity; regulation; and of course, capital markets. The real estate market in Geneva, we've seen for the migration, a slowdown of the population growth in 2020, only plus 0.4% compared of 2019 plus 1%. 71% of this growth came from net migration and that 40% of Geneva residents are foreigners, and of course, the pandemic had slowed down the -- this migration with the border closed during 3 months. But going forward, we think that after this pandemic decreases, the growth will continue like before. Now regarding the construction activity, in the last 12 months, 2,500 new housing units were created, plus 28%. This is an impressive performance for Geneva but by far not covering the backlog of the last years. Now regarding regulation, we see that the new tax regime for corporate will continue to [ affect ] companies and, of course, more people going forward. On the next slide, you can see that for us, and I think in the residential market, vacancy today still remain a very important metric. You can see that in our 2 main markets, Geneva and Lausanne, we are very low, much, much lower than the Switzerland level of 2.7%. We are in both cities under 1% of vacancy rate. But parallelly, you can see that the new construction permits delivered in Lausanne, they decreased close of minus 50% in Geneva. And in the meantime, you can see that Zurich, where you have also a very high -- a very low vacancy rate. There, you have an increase of new construct permit delivery. On the next slide, you have an evolution on the right of the last 3-year vacancy rate, you can see that in the Canton of Geneva, it remains very stable, 0.5% to 0.6%. And in the meantime, Geneva of -- to 1.5% to -- from 1.5% to 1.9%, but Lausanne remains largely under the 1%. Next slide. It shows that in Switzerland, you have only 3 canton where you have still a shortage of apartment. So Zug, Geneva and Zurich. And going forward, we think that for mainly Geneva and Zurich, it will continue. This is due mainly to the regulation of the construction. Next slide. This is the relating period. You can see that you have only 3 canton with -- 4 canton where you are under days as relating period. This is Basel then Geneva, Zurich and Zug. But in our market, we have a very -- we are more in the middle to low segment apartments. The relating period is even shorter. And for us, we've seen that 74% of our apartments now, they are related directly from the tenants to a new tenants, due to the cancellation of the contract out of the period -- contract period. Next slide, you can see that Geneva has already -- the vacancy rate has already, again, started to decline to 0.49%. And when, in the meantime, the Swiss vacancy rate increased to 1.72%. This means that shortage and undersupply will continue in our market. So financial markets, we still believe that the interest rate will stay very low. We don't believe -- so we have heard these last months and also due to the increase of the federal bond 10 years in the U.S., everyone is expecting now the return of inflation. Investis, we don't see this return [ of inflation ]. This is due first of the automatization, digitalization of industries. It's also due to Internet. The transparency of the price brings a natural deflation. And also due to the difficult situation of France, Italy, Spain, et cetera, just last year, it was communicated yesterday by the Swiss National Bank. They had to buy last year, EUR 109 billion and dollars to stabilize the Swiss francs. As before, we still see more risk that the interest rate become more negative than become positive. On the slide, you can see that the spread between the Geneva, Lausanne real estate apartment property market yield compared to the 10-year bonds stay by 2.5%. And now regarding the transaction of residential properties in Geneva, [ a few ], I think they heard that end of 2020 there was a closing of, I think, a huge transaction of CHF 600 million of a residential portfolio. It was the portfolio RDT, bought by the [indiscernible] from Basel. The transaction gross yield of 2%. So if we look now where the market is going, we see now many properties coming to us at a yield largely under 3%. So we think that we are now between 2.5% to 3% gross yield. Going forward, we expect still more compression due to the scarcity of new properties, residential properties available for sale in Geneva and Lausanne. And if you go to the next slide, this slide shows exactly what's happening in the market. On the right, you have the rents that we have on this property. It's city center, very well located. We did maintenance on it. And you can see that since we bought it, the rent is still increasing. And if we compare what's happened to the -- to Investis, you can see that there, we had plus 2% of rent increase on the portfolio, this like-for-like rental increase was 1.6%. You can see on the left that the valuation now is not plus 2%, but plus 8%, of course, is due to this yield compression. And this gives a new valuation of plus [ CHF 1.7 million ]. But this is still a 3.9% gross yield valuation. And the market, of course, is far from that. And I think for such a property with the quality of the property, the refurbishment we have done, the market [ value will be ] around CHF 30 million. So to sum up, Investis is active in markets where there is a constant situation of undersupply, and we can say that Lake Geneva region is our USP. This is due to the low vacancy rate. Also to the compression yield, so the low interest rate environment. The scarcity of new properties is also due to the highest demand due to the demography growth. And of course, this like-for-like growth, and that's really our USP. So thank you. Now René Häsler will present you the financial overview.

Thank you, Stéphane. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, also from my side. I kick off on Page 19, where you have a summary of the figures again. And I just would like to come back on the operating performance. It says here just shy of prior year, CHF 45.5 million. And I will not come back to these comments again later on because then you have heard it. If you compare 2019 to 2020, we had 2 negative impacts on this figure. On the 1 hand, we sold last year a couple of companies in the real estate service business. You might have noticed that they contributed CHF 21 million of turnover last year. Of course, that has an impact on their operating performance, which is not here anymore in [ 2020 ]. And then we had the pandemic, COVID-19. And on the bottom line, I would guess that the impact was roughly CHF 1 million to CHF 1.5 million because if you take the rent of [ CHF 200 million ] that we granted the discount that is directly going into bottom line. The same 40 serviced apartment, where we had in the first half, the figures communicated and then with these additional costs and reduced revenue [ in the ] service business, that figure got diluted by the number I just mentioned. So that's why we say impressive results, also under operating performance because looking substance or form to the figures, we had a considerable increase on the operating performance. Gross LTV at below 38% as a consequence of the cash we received on the sales. We sold rent income of -- totaling [ CHF 103 million ] that impacted the top line in the property business. Again, this 1.6% like-for-like Stéphane elaborated on that already, and it is within our guidance long term. So on the next page, you see the full income statement, with CHF 180 million of revenue and a net profit of CHF 113 million, CHF 114 million. And the characteristic of our 2 segments, you see in the graph to the right, the revenue is 68% coming from the service business, which has a very low invested capital, that is generating 26% of the group's cash flow, illustrated here with EBITDA before revaluation and disposals. Of course, on the EBIT line, with this considerable revaluation gains, the share is much lower, but nevertheless, this is an important part of our business model. And I repeat that all the time, it's a high-return on low invested capital. For the contrary, we have the property business where we have constant recurring cash flows and very high invested capital. If we come to that property segment, then you see we had revenue just short of CHF 58 million. Still an increase compared to prior year, also 1.6%, which is a like-for-like rent increase, meaning that the disposal impact and the acquisition impact in the portfolio were a wash. Effectively, it was a 3% plus and 3% minus compared to prior year. CHF 79 million revaluation gains, we discussed that. And of course, as usual, when we sell properties, it's well over the fair value estimated by our appraiser. Therefore, we boosted here CHF 14 million of gains from these sales. EBIT stood at CHF 131 million, well up against prior year for the reasons I just outlined. Renovation, even so we could not do all we have planned [ and have ] invested another CHF 2.2 million in renovation in our portfolio last year, a little bit shy on the prior years where the number was a little bit higher, but still, we continue to invest in our portfolio. On Page 22. Just to highlight again, we are 95% residential. We are 72% in Geneva. And we are in the middle price segment, meaning 1 to 3 room apartments, where the demand is the highest in Geneva, but also in the roundings of Lausanne and downtown there. Vacancy, 3%. In Geneva, we are down to 1.5%. We had, at the end of the year, still some [ rental growth ] and unlike in the pre-COVID times, we now need 2 apartments vacant for security reasons of our tenants because we cannot use the same-facility as before. And of course, that had an impact also on the vacancy. In Residential Mall, we have actually 2 properties. One is Echelon that we talked about already that we have mostly vacant because we do a full renovation or repositioning of the building. And then we have that development of [indiscernible] in Canton of Vaud where we ramped out the first out of 4 apartments, which contributed to this 4%. As we speak, we are already lower and we are confident that this vacancy in [indiscernible] that lease goes away until year-end. Commercial properties, 14.5%. This is, again, 2 properties that contribute to that newly built office in Moshe that is filling up. And the Monte building that we are also repositioning partly from offices to residential. So not a concern to us. We stick to the underlying 1% vacancy rate going forward but of course, there are always certain facts that we cannot go to exactly that 1%. If you look at the rent development in the last year since the IPO, we started at CHF 41 million. We are now at CHF 58 million [ constant currency ] and also very important, constant like-for-like rent increase is embedded besides the acquisitions that we have done in the portfolio. And still, at the end of 2020, CBRE is considering that in our portfolio or shy of the market 13%, it was 15% a year ago and also 13% 2 years ago. That is despite the increase like-for-like our rents, the market also demands higher prices in the market. On the bottom right, these 3 graphs that you have there, as you know, 75% of our rent contracts are indexed to the CPI and that we follow known in the German part of Switzerland, that is linked to the interest rate or that reference rate. So we have contracts that are in a sense, commercial contract also for the residential part. We still have about 10% and we stayed to our target of 1% to 2% like-for-like rent increase on a recurring basis, and this is an average going forward. If we turn to the second segment, which is real estate services, a very pleasing business, CHF 125 million of revenue. Organic growth in both activities Hauswartprofis and Privera and some acquisitions also in the facility service part that we outlined in the report, were predominantly or only asset deals, not share deals. And you see the revenue split, it's 50-50 a little bit on the side of facility services. This is valid for 2020. I come back on a later slide that this will change going forward since we did the 2 acquisitions in the last 2 weeks, as you certainly noticed. 8.6% EBIT margin. We stick to our high single digit, as we announced. Even so the 2 main activities Privera and Hauswartprofis, I would say, you to COVID had to give away a little bit of margin, but that was compensated with the [ equity stake ] we did in March in ProLabo. So on the next slide, you see the longer-term revenue development. And since it was an important number, these companies that we sold, we highlighted these effects of their revenue contribution in the past, so that you can easily notice that we have grown our business constantly in the last couple of years. The same date on the EBIT margin, we announced in the IPO year 2016 that we need 3 years to reposition our service business and to achieve a high single digit margin. In 2019, it took as expected, these 3 years, but now we are where we wanted to be. And we confirmed the high single-digit margin as well in 2020. If we look below the EBIT line, of course, we have some financial expenses. We, at the end of the year were fully financed with the 4 bonds that we had outstanding contributed financial expenses of CHF 4 million. And we have the normal income tax that we pay to the government, on average, 14% which is down since 2018 after the changes in the loss, mainly in Vaud and Geneva, where now the tax rate is more in the 14% section. Service business had a slightly higher average tax rate. They turn in 16%, 17%. And that's why we guide on a 15%, 16% tax rate going forward. Earnings per share, CHF 8.91, of course, heavily impacted by the revaluation gains, prior year, CHF 13.59, which was an effect of the release of deferred taxes in Geneva, CHF 61 million in 2019. We still have the same solid balance sheet as before with predominantly 4 line items. It's the portfolio with CHF 1.5 billion. The [ bonds are ] CHF 560 million. We have a considerable amount of deferred taxes, CHF 140 million and 53% equity ratio or CHF 822 million, which leads them to communicated NAV per share, the NAV per share as you know, does not include the value of the service business, since it's not fair value on the balance sheet, it's at cost. And if you look in the segment reporting, you see that in the balance sheet, they have some CHF 15 million, CHF 20 million of net assets on our balance sheet. But the value is a couple of times higher. On the right, you'll see that we have on top of the bonds that we issued the CHF 560 million. We have credit lines available with Swiss banks amounting to CHF 382 million. They were not used, except for that guarantee that will lapse and then it's going away. And we would have the full credit line available. Average interest cost stays at 0.5%. And the maturity, of course, in line with our strategy is short term, it's roughly 1.5 year, and we continue to stay short as we consider the interest rate moving sidewards and not considerably upwards, if not downwards. Debt structure, it's just a summary of what is outstanding. So I would then come to the events that we communicated in the last 2 weeks. On the 1 hand, we are very happy to have a new kit in our family. It's the company Rohr AG. They are in a similar business, active as our household property business, but in essence, the activities are very complementary. So we have almost no fabrication. They have a strong footprint in the facade cleaning and in clean room construction and maintenance. And otherwise, they have a revenue of CHF 41 million posted in 2020. Their margins are not yet there where we see that business Trading. You might remember, we always said, facility services should achieve a 5-plus EBIT margin. 2020, they did not achieve that margin [ but still ] have room for improvement. And if you do your mathematics for 2021, you have to assume that we didn't own the company a full year. So revenue will not grow CHF 41 million out of this acquisition. Then the second acquisition, SEA Lab, a very important step forward also for us. It's complementary to our ProLabo business. They are the technological leader in asbestos detection and posted a revenue of [Audio Gap] in 2020. These businesses are growing double digit. Asbestos is not yet so well-known in the German part, in the French part, it's the hot topic of the day. We assume that this will continue into the German part and of course, the demand will only increase. Today's market volume in this field is estimated at CHF 50 million. I would not be surprised if we double up that number in the coming couple of years. So these 2 businesses will complement our facility service business for Investis. And of course, that will shift the ratio of the facility service against the property management considerably. But it will also dilute, in total a little bit our margin as this CHF 41 million turnover or below our average. That's from my side. Thank you very much. I hand over to Stéphane for the outlook.

Thank you, René. The outlook, a few words about the AGM. So we want to inform these -- we will inform the shareholders at AGM on April 27 will take place again on the special circumstances. All shareholders will have voting rights by giving power of attorney to the independent proxy. The point which will be voted. Main points are: first, Riccardo Boscardin is not standing for re-election. And we will propose Christian Gellerstad as non-executive members. All the members standing for election. Thomas Vettiger will be proposed as President of the Board of Directors, we will also propose an increased dividend of CHF 2.50 per share. And KPMG will be proposed as new auditor. Outlook. The residential rental market should be less affected in the real estate sector in Switzerland by COVID-19. Going forward, we are still positive on immigration into Switzerland and especially into Lake Geneva region. Regarding properties, we want to continue to expand our portfolio through targeted acquisition, mainly in residential. Regarding real estate services, we focus on acquisition and profitable revenue growth. Regarding the balance sheet, we want to have low debt, and this will bring the low borrowing cost. We are still confident that the demand for residential properties in prime Swiss location will remain strong. And regarding numbers, the outlook for the current year is subject to uncertainty due to the pandemic. So to sum up, what makes Investis unique? So we have the largest listed residential portfolio undersupplied Lake Geneva regions. We have there low vacancy. We have this continuous rent potential of 13%. This is really our business model. It's the rent potential added to the yield compression then this is why how we create value. We have a low exposure in commercial properties. With leading position in the real estate services in -- across Switzerland, in these 2 segments, facility services and property management. We have a sound balance sheet, conservative financing and experienced management. So thank you for your attention, and now we can start the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Pascal Furger with Vontobel.

Congrats to your results. A couple of questions, if I may. The first one is with regards to your dividend. So obviously, it's well taken by investors. Can you give us some background on how you ended up with the CHF 2.5? And can we consider this as sort of a sustainable basis or with even further upside potential? And then my second question is with regards to your direct real estate expenses. So here, your direct property expenses increased to more than 30% of rental income, especially in the second half of the year. Did you accelerate some renovation works here last year in times of COVID-19? And what can we expect for 2021? And then the last question is with regards to services. So here, you mentioned higher staff cost in property management. Did you evaluate how many sort of COVID-19-related additional inquiries you got here from your tenants and what their contribution was? And can you also please elaborate a bit more on the EBIT mix of your business last years in terms of contribution from property management, facility management, but also from M&A yields such as ProLabo. And here, what can we expect for this year also? I know you don't give the guidance, but maybe you could give some best case worst sales EBIT scenario for services?

So maybe I will start with the first question regarding the dividend. And then I think it's more for relating to numbers, I will hand over to René. Regarding the dividend, yes, you can consider it's sustainable. So going forward, we will continue. You know always what's -- in our business model and during the presentation, I explained it. Last year, we did 1.6% increase of our like-for-like rental. And 1.6% of roughly CHF 60 million, this means that you are generating new income. When we start the year, you had nothing. And then again, at the end of the year, you create more or less CHF 1 million new income. Of course, our business model is to develop our portfolio and to buy properties. So today, in the real estate market in City Center in Geneva to buy CHF 1 million of income, you would have to invest roughly CHF 40 million. And of course, people would say that this gain is noncash. But if you have the cash gain and then you invest this cash in CHF 40 million of properties, you have no more cash also. So we say in French, [Foreign Language]. So then we consider that we have also to distribute a little bit of this gain. But if you look into the operational performance that we achieved, the dividend is largely -- and going forward, we want to increase this performance and this will be more the guide of the dividend. So maybe now about the direct expense, I give the words to René.

Thank you. You don't make it easy, but I try to give you as much information as I have and can. So direct expense in the property part. In the first half, indeed, we had 72% contribution, which was [ up ], I mean, Switzerland was standing still for roughly 2 months. And we could not do renovation, but also maintenance was issued on a lower volume, which boosted then immediately the second half, let's say, pent-up demand on the maintenance and renovation, we could do what we planned. And all in all, we are at the 70% margin, which is more or less what we expect in properties also going forward. Also, I would like to highlight that we sold some commercial buildings and these rents were triple net. So very little of direct cost compared to the residential part. That's why the 70% will not increase going forward, if that is your follow-up question. In terms of COVID impact on the real estate service business, it was probably net negative impact because we didn't -- our portfolio in the facility service business is predominantly also residential and shopping centers and less of office and commercial buildings where the facility service providers had additional business. We had some additional business, but the loss in turnover was overcompensating this additional COVID-related revenues evolution. What was the question again on that margin?

Rather on the EBIT contribution. So how it changed our last year in terms of property management, facility management, but also you've got contributions from the M&A deal last year, I think ProLabo?

Yes. So ProLabo, they posted the CHF 2 million turnover last year. Their margin is a good double digit. So if we give guidance on the facility services with 5-plus and property management 10-plus in that environmental analysis business, I would say, you can imagine EBIT margin. So going forward, I would see a slight -- really a slight dilution on the 8.6% and of course, we are aiming to confirm this 8% to 6% going forward. But I'm not yet sure that we will achieve it.

The next question is from the line of Christian Affolter with L'Agefi.

As for the question on this analysis the market of Geneva, and this constant situation of undersupply, just wanted to ask there are quite big projects coming into the market. Now I think about [indiscernible] or property development of the [indiscernible]. So this doesn't change anything for this situation?

So yes. [indiscernible], as you know, one part is condominium sale. Then you have roughly 3 apartments with 3 rent, the market where we are would be less than 10% -- it would be roughly 10% of the portfolio. Just part of [indiscernible] are offices. So we don't see with [indiscernible], a huge competitor and a huge contribution in this new flat. [indiscernible], I spoke about it with one of the developers. It looks that it will be not so easy to get the permit. So it's not a project for tomorrow regarding [indiscernible]. So last year, this 2,500 units for Geneva it was really impressive. [ Now ] it's more between 1,500 to 2,000 new units. And then you have a repartition depends on new project, a big one or a smaller one. But going forward, we don't see like [ repartition ] in the market. And also, you have to note that we -- our portfolio, we are more in the low to middle segment price. If you have this new project coming, very often, the price of the 3 apartments are much higher. And then even for the protected price, they are still higher than what we propose. So I don't see any risk there.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of Holger Frisch with Zürcher Kantonalbank.

Yes. I have a view on the acquisitions. The first, on the acquisition of Rohr AG and your comment that the EBIT margin is below your targeted level 5% plus. So when do you expect Rohr AG to get to that level? And are there any synergies that you expect from the deal? And what would be the amount? Then regarding the purchase price, is onetime sales a fair assumption? Or would it be rather in the area of 0.5x sales considering the low EBIT margin? Then on the SEA Lab, could you give an indication for the EBIT margin of that company? I assume that they are currently operating at a loss, right? And then in terms of your overall strategy for the real estate services, and considering the recent acquisitions, what can we expect here? What is your targeted contribution from the services segment on an EBIT level in, let's say, 5 years?

Okay. I take it, and you jump in, Stéphane, if there is something that I missed out. So Rohr AG, yes, I confirm that their margin is below the 5%. When will they be 5 plus? We are just bought the company 1.5-week ago. So we did not yet do the strategic analysis together with the management of the company, but you can assume that we do our utmost to improve the margin to that household profit is already enjoying. So give us, I would say, 2 years, and we will then be above the level. In terms of purchase price, there was a strict nondisclosure agreed among the parties. So I will not -- I'm not able to give you the number. What I can say is that we also purchased the building that they operate in which is in the high-single million Swiss francs, which is included in the purchase price that gives -- that does not give you real additional information, but it's important to know that we also invested in the building. The SEA Lab acquisition, there, I have to correct you. They are already profitable. And we see their EBIT margin contribution in the same level as ProLabo as I outlined with 20-plus percent. Where are we going in real estate services, we always said that we want to grow profitably. So we are not just buying turnover to restructurings or looking for businesses that are value creative. And these 2 acquisitions are totally in line with our strategy. Where will we be in 5 years? I don't have a crystal ball to look into. Of course, we will grow organically in our business. I mean there, in the current market environment, an organic growth of 1% to 2%, that is probably a good performance. And acquisitions, you always need 2 to tango. So if there are businesses out there that would join [ our family ], we are open to discuss it. But of course, we cannot predict or give a clear guidance on what we are going to acquire going forward.

Maybe I want to add some elements regarding Rohr, regarding [Audio Gap] of course, we will have synergy with Hauswartprofis, also more on the back office side. And also maybe some activities we can do some switch between 2 companies because Rohr AG, they have their specialists for the [Audio Gap] and especially faster obtaining, they are leader in Switzerland in this activity and this [indiscernible] business also where we see a huge potential in Switzerland. So we see some synergy. And now regarding the real estate service strategy. So [Audio Gap] so for me, what's very important, first, we want to provide the national service in each activity where we are. So in -- with Rohr, of course, they are not present in Swiss, we want to extend our services now in Swiss. We really want to withdrawal in this both segment national. And regarding SEA Lab, again, there, we want -- and if you look on the website of both companies now, we are almost national want to develop these services on a national level. And now we can say that with this both company, in asbestos, we are really the leader in Switzerland. And for me, what's very important in real estate services, not only to be national, but it's really to enter in recurring income business model. Why? And because if you start the year with 100, then if you want to do 110 next year, you will more work on the 10. And also, [ important, ] in all these different service companies, when I met the CEO of Real Estate Company Fund or a different owner, I can provide to this client, all our services. So [Audio Gap] and we provide services to real estate owner. So in 1 meeting, I can sell 3 different services. That's very important.

[Operator Instructions] Gentlemen, there are no more questions at this time. Back to you for any closing remarks.

Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your attention and for your interest in our company. Me, René and Laurence, we remain at your disposal for any bilateral discussion, if needed. Thank you again, and we wish you a good day.

Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

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