ISS A/S (QJQ.F) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the ISS Interim Report for the First Half of 2024. Today's call is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I would like to introduce Michael Vitfell-Rasmussen, Head of Investor Relations. Michael, please begin.

Yes. Thank you, and hello, and good morning, everyone, and a warm welcome to this conference call following our first half report released earlier this morning. As said, my name is Michael Vitfell-Rasmussen, and I'm now heading up Investor Relations here at ISS. Some of you know me from the past, and I'm very much looking forward to touching base with those of you who do not know me yet. I'm in the room here with our CEO, Kasper Fangel; and our CFO, Mads Holm. But before we start up, I would like to pay attention to the disclaimer on Page 31. And with that, I will now hand over to Kasper to go through the presentation. Kasper?

Thank you, Michael, and good morning, everyone. Also from my side, a very warm welcome to the presentation of our first half results for 2024. I'm very pleased to share the room with 2 fairly new colleagues today, our new group CFO, Mads Holm, who will be taking you through the financials, and Michael Vitfell-Rasmussen that you just heard from, who just started last week in Investor Relations. Before getting into our performance, I want to start out by making a few quick comments about the external environment and our business. From a macroeconomic perspective, the demand for what we sell continues to be high. Customers continue to look for solutions that allows them to drive efficiency, enhance employee experience, lean into innovation and deliver on sustainability commitments. We also note that our industry tends to be relatively stable throughout economical cycles and political uncertainty. Our service offering is relevant regardless of the political situation in a given country. And our customers tend to look for efficiencies when times are challenging and look to invest in experiences when times are a little more favorable. So all this to say that it's a great time to be ISS and to be operating in our space. Now on to the specifics of the first half. ISS continued to move in the right direction in the first half of 2024. Our financial KPIs developed according to our expectations, and I'm pleased to announce that we can now narrow our organic growth outlook to the high end of our original range. We now expect organic growth to be 5% to 6% for the full year. The margin is also developing according to plan and continue to improve driven by the OneISS review conducted last year and general improvements across the business. Just to be perfectly clear, our margin in the first half was 3.9%, including hyperinflation and 4.0% excluding hyperinflation. We guide excluding hyperinflation, and our consensus is collected excluding hyperinflation. So the 4.0% is the margin that we consider relevant. Commercially, we have won several local contracts and extended our largest global key account customer, Barclays, which alone represents an annual revenue of more than DKK 2 billion. Additionally, just last week, we've been awarded a significant contract worth more than DKK 1 billion in the U.K. with the Department for Work and Pensions. This is extremely pleasing, and I will elaborate on this shortly. Our 2 largest mobilization and start-ups, DEFRA and Bygningsstyrelsen are also progressing according to plan, and our pipeline of future commercial opportunities looks promising. The situation around Deutsche Telekom is unchanged, and we will update you accordingly once there's anything material to report. Moving on to our capital position. It's also moving in the right direction and according to plan. This was acknowledged by S&P, who upgraded our credit rating in May. We're comfortably within our targeted leverage range, which is why we have announced an increase of DKK 250 million through our ongoing share buyback program, taking it to a total of DKK 1.25 billion. Please turn to Slide #5. As mentioned last week, we were awarded a significant contract with DWP of approximately DKK 1.2 billion, excluding projects and above-base work. I'm extremely proud to see this win come through, as it's the culmination of 3 years work and the results of the U.K.'s relentless industry focus on the public sector, as also evidenced by the DEFRA win last year. The contract was awarded after a public procurement process led by the U.K. government. And the fact that it has been awarded to us is a significant recognition of our value proposition and track record in this segment. Once operational, we will have welcomed more than -- close to 3,000 new ISS employees that will provide outstanding services to DWP, and we are carrying the responsibility to these employees to create opportunities that they wouldn't have had, had ISS not existed. As you can imagine, it takes time to mobilize thousands of employees, although we're taking most over from the current provider, which is why we anticipate a longer ramp-up period than usual. We will start the mobilization in October this year, and the actual services and subsequent revenue will begin in October 2025. The contract has obviously followed our strict internal framework for contract management and start-up. The contract has been officially awarded, but is subject to final signing in line with the public procurement process. We expect signing by the end of this month. Lastly, I want to highlight that DWP's strong commitment to social sustainability aligns closely with our own, serving as a testament to the fact that our efforts in this area are not only the right thing to do, but are also highly valued by our customers. In May, we extended our global contract with Barclays, representing more than DKK 2 billion in annual revenue, making it the second largest contract in ISS. We have partnered with Barclays since 2012, and this contract is truly a global IFS contract. We serve them all around the world in more than 25 countries, touching the lives of more than 80,000 Barclays employees daily with all our core services. The renewal took place almost a year ahead of schedule, and the contract went to the market. So it has been a great team effort. We would not have secured this contract without our global reach through our self-delivery model, coupled with strong technology solutions. Barclays is also an example of a customer who values our commitment to social sustainability and recognizes how our diverse workforce can help advance their social sustainability agenda. Please turn to Slide 6 to look at 2 other large contracts. Let me provide a brief update on the 2 large contracts that we commenced in H1 2024; DEFRA in the U.K. and Bygningsstyrelsen in Denmark. The enterprise have done an excellent job absorbing the volumes. I'm pleased to report that both contracts are now fully operational, and we are proceeding according to plan, both operationally and financially. This success is only possible due to the strong processes and governance we have in place. And it gives me great confidence as we embark on an even larger contract in the U.K. with our recent award of DWP. With that, please turn to Slide 7 for an overview of our commercial momentum. This slide gives you an overview of our commercial development since the Q1 reporting in May. We have won several local contracts in Europe and continue to experience good momentum with extensions. We now only have 2% of revenue left to renew in 2024, and I'm confident in our ability to secure this final 2%. Our 2025 expiries have decreased from 10% to 5% since we last spoke, with Barclays being the largest driver behind this improvement. We also experienced 2 new losses during this period, impacting the Americas region. And this is obviously disappointing. This is in addition to a number of deliberate contract exits in the region during the last 12 months. We are staying disciplined in our commercial processes for both new wins and extensions, and we are not accepting unreasonable terms and conditions. And I'm pleased to see it come through in our margin development in Americas. The margin has improved by 60 basis points since the first half last year. Steven Quick has joined the team as a new CEO of North America in July, and I'm excited about the next chapter of North America. 1 year of negative growth doesn't change that. We see a lot of untapped growth opportunities in the region, and we have a strong business platform. Looking ahead, I'm pleased with our commercial pipeline with several significant opportunities in the final stage of negotiation. We're also beginning to see the commercial processes stabilize after some longer cycles post-pandemic when customers were in a wait-and-see mode regarding their future real estate needs. This increased clarity is helping our customers make decisions, which I expect will benefit us moving forward. With that, I would like to hand over to Mads, who will take us through the financials.

Thank you very much, Kasper. Before discussing the first half results, I would like to express my gratitude for the warm welcome I have received both internally and externally. Joining a new company is always an exciting experience, and it's been a great pleasure to become part of the ISS family. I have not encountered any surprises, and I feel confident about the company's financial position and growth opportunities. Moving on to the first half result. I'm pleased to report that they are in line with our expectations. Organic growth was 5.9% and was driven by price increases and volume growth. I will elaborate on this shortly. The improvement in the operating margin continued in first half, where the margin was 4.0% compared to 3.6% in the same period last year. Lastly, our free cash flow also developed as expected and was negative DKK 1.1 billion, including the negative impact from the Deutsche Telekom contract. Overall, we are satisfied with our financial performance in the first half, and we are well positioned to deliver on our full-year financial outlook. Please proceed to the next slide for a closer look at the organic growth development. As shown on this slide, the main driver of organic growth continues to be price increases. Price increases alone have driven an organic growth of 6.5% in the first half of 2024, with approximately half of this growth coming from Turkey. Volume growth added around 1 percentage point, supported by increased activity levels at customer side, but also increased scope from our contract expansions. Net contract wins were negative by 1 percentage point, primarily due to contract lost or exited in 2023. We anticipate the net contract wins will remain negative for the remainder of the year as our significant new wins this quarter will not contribute to 2024. Lastly, project and above-base work had a negative impact of around 1 percentage point. The decline is due to lower demand for deep cleaning, disinfection and refurbishment programs following the high demand during the pandemic. However, it is worth noting that the share of above-base work remains above pre-pandemic levels, currently standing at 15%. Please proceed to Slide 11 for a closer look at the operating margin development. The improvement in the operating margin continued in first half of 2024. Excluding the impact of hyperinflation in Turkey, the margin was 4%, in line with our expectations. The improvement was driven by operational efficiency across the group, including continued progress on Deutsche Telekom and in the U.K. as well as one-off in APAC related to certain employee tax refunds and government grants. The positive impact of the OneISS revenue conducted last year also contributed to this progress. As a slight offset to these positive developments, we decided to make certain investments in the mobilization process related to the large contract ramp-ups in Denmark and the U.K. that Kasper discussed earlier. And the operating margin was also impacted by our ordinary restructuring costs being weighted towards the first half. For the full year, I expect to land within our normal range of DKK 100 million to DKK 150 million. Lastly, our strong framework for passing on price increases remains effective and is margin-neutral. While it does not contribute directly to market growth, it positively impacts absolute profit. Overall, the operating margin in the first half is progressing as expected, giving us confidence in achieving our full-year margin guidance, which anticipates a margin above 6% in second half. Please turn to Slide 12 for a look at regional developments. From a regional perspective, organic growth was primarily driven by European regions. Northern Europe benefited from DEFRA and Bygningsstyrelsen start-ups, with most of the growth occurring in second quarter. Growth in Central and Southern Europe was predominantly driven by price increases in Turkey. Growth in APAC mainly stemmed from volume growth and price increases, though this was partly offset by a decline in project and above-base work. Portfolio revenue alone grew by 7% during this period. Organic growth in Americas was impacted by contract lost, and exited in 2023, as Kasper mentioned earlier. For the second half, we expect negative low double-digit organic growth, while the margin will continue to improve. From a margin perspective, all regions showed positive underlying improvements even adjusting for the positive one-off in APAC. It is encouraging to see the Northern Europe region has maintained its margin levels despite the large start-ups, and then, the deliberate contract exits have positively affected margins in the Americas. Please turn to the next slide for an overview of free cash flow. As expected, free cash flow was negative in the first half of 2024, amounting to negative DKK 1.1 billion. This was primarily driven by changes in working capital, resulting in an outflow of DKK 1.9 billion, reflecting normal seasonality and the withholding of certain payments from Deutsche Telekom. Working capital was also negatively impacted by a decrease in payables, mainly due to a high level of self-delivery as our own employees are paid sooner than subcontractors. As expected, the DKK 200 million related to provisions, pensions and similar obligations includes cash out related to the OneISS conducted at the end of 2023. All in all, a free cash flow in first half according to plan. Therefore, our guidance for the full year of more than DKK 1.8 billion remains unchanged, implying a free cash flow above DKK 2.9 billion in the second half. When we are successful in obtaining the withheld payments from Deutsche Telekom, the free cash flow outlook will be adjusted accordingly. Please go to the next slide. Before we move on to capital structure, let me give you a short update on our most recent acquisition. The team has done an excellent job integrating these new businesses, and they are performing according to business plan or better. We will, also, under my leadership, continue to have a very selective approach to M&A with a preference for smaller bolt-on acquisition within our targeted service lines and industries. Also, such M&A opportunity needs to fulfill our return requirements. In the case of M&A opportunities, where the risk-return isn't attractive on a risk-adjusted basis, we will pay the surplus capital out in form of dividends and share buyback as we are currently doing. I believe this is a good segue into our next slide on capital structure. I'm pleased to see that our financial position continues to improve, which also was recognized by S&P who upgraded our credit rating from BBB- to BBB in May. The leverage ratio was impacted by normal seasonality and ended up at 2.6x in the first half of 2024. For the full year, we expect to be well within our targeted range, which is why we today announce an increase of DKK 250 million to our share buyback, taking it up to DKK 1.25 billion in total. Let me take this opportunity to stress that capital discipline is very important to me, and I fully support our current capital policy. In case of excess capital, we will redistribute the capital back to our shareholder, as I just mentioned. And of course, we, together with the Board, look at a range of parameters when we make these decisions, including the attractiveness of an extraordinary dividend compared to share buyback. Please turn to Slide 17 for the outlook of '24. The outlook for 2024 is unchanged, but we have, as mentioned, narrowed the organic growth range to be in the upper end of the range, meaning we now expect organic growth for the full year to be 5% to 6% compared to 4% to 6% previously. For the operating margin, we continue to expect it to be above 5%. And for the free cash flow is expected to be above DKK 1.8 billion. I will in the following slides go into the details on each of the 3 KPIs of the outlook. Slide 18, please. The drivers behind the organic growth outlook for the full year 2024 have changed slightly. The biggest change compared to our full-year expectation is that we now expect a higher impact from price increases given the stronger-than-expected wage inflation environment. Volume growth is expected to contribute around 1 percentage point, whereas net contract wins and projects and above-base rate are each expected to have a negative contribution of around 0.5 percentage points. Net contract wins are impacted by losses and deliberate exits, mainly in the Americas. The losses are obviously disappointing. But as Kasper mentioned earlier, we have some good contract wins, including DWP that was awarded last week, but will not impact growth until 2025. Our above-base work is expected to be slightly down due to comparisons still being impacted by the high levels in the post-pandemic environment. All in all, this brings us to our full-year guidance of 5% to 6%. Please go to Slide 19 for the margin building blocks. The assumptions for the full-year margin guidance remained unchanged. As per normal seasonality, the margin development is back-end loaded due to profits being generally higher in second half. We also expect to see the full benefit of OneISS review materialize in the second half as well as continue operational improvements. In summary, we expect the operating margin to be above 6% in the second half. Please go to the next slide for the free cash flow. The building blocks for the free cash flow also remained broadly unchanged compared to communication in February and in May. In short, working capital is expected to be slightly negative. CapEx, in addition to lease assets negative and interest and taxes paid, will be slightly higher than in 2023, the latter because of the higher profits. As I mentioned, the free cash flow is expected to be above DKK 1.8 billion if Deutsche Telekom continues to withhold these payments. That concludes my part of the presentation. So let me pass the word to Kasper for some final remarks.

Thank you, Mads. In summary, I'm pleased with the development in the first half of 2024. We are delivering according to plan on almost all parameters, and we were able to upgrade the guidance on growth slightly. While we faced some disappointing losses that negatively impacted our growth, I'm extremely pleased that we were awarded the DWP contract, and as mentioned, I see the commercial landscape opening up. I'm also glad to see that our operating model is working effectively and the teams are successful in mobilizing also the very large contracts such as DEFRA. I'd also like to highlight the margin development, which is progressing according to plan with no unforeseen hiccups. I appreciate that you're all eager to hear more about Deutsche Telekom, and I assure you that we are working diligently to secure the payments as soon as possible, and we will obviously update you accordingly. But I also hope that you'll respect that this is an ongoing legal case and we must protect our commercial interest, so we cannot provide all the details at this time. Lastly, as Mads mentioned, our capital position is strong, which is why we've increased our share buyback program today. All in all, I believe we're in a good shape, and I'm confident in our ability to deliver on our full-year financial KPIs as well as our commitment to our customers. As I said in my opening remarks, ISS is well positioned, and our disciplined execution provides us both optimism and confidence as we move forward. On that note, let me take an opportunity to provide a few thank yous. First, a thank you to our current and future customers who continue to allow us the opportunity to serve them. Thank you for your trust. To our valued colleagues here at ISS that serve our customers on an everyday basis around the world, thank you. Whether you clean their premises, cook their food or perform other important tasks, you make a significant difference in the places you serve. And I truly believe we can make a difference for you through the many career opportunities we provide. ISS is an incredible engine for social mobility for our placemakers all over the world. With that, I would like to open the floor for Q&A. Thank you very much.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Simona Sarli from Bank of America.

Yes. So first of all, on volume growth. So what is driving the cut for this year, especially in the context of your comment on better commercial momentum? Also, what is the impact of contract losses on client retention? And high-level, what is the expectation for client retention for next year, also considering the contract win with the U.K. Department of Work and Pensions? Also, please, just very quickly, a second one on your contract with the U.K. DWP, if you can please quantify the headwind on margin for 2024 and 2025 from the mobilization cost?

Okay. Thank you, Simona. I think that was slightly more than one question, which is totally fine. No problem at all. Let me just go through this, and hopefully, I capture it all. So I mean, first of all, in terms of the broad perspective and the helicopter view of our optimism on future growth, obviously, is pointing towards our pipeline. And we have an attractive pipeline with real quality. And what I mean with that is that it's customers that wants to work in a partnership and it's in segments that we have chosen to focus on. And then we're also seeing a change in the processes and decision-making at the moment, where, as you know, I have mentioned several times before that it was almost stalled for a long period of time in terms of decision-making, then we are seeing that things are starting to stabilize and normalize and decisions are being made in accordance with what we saw before the pandemic. And then it's also not a secret that our comfort level, of course, also comes from the fact that we have a number of significant contracts that where we are in the final stage of completion. I'm very pleased about that. And in general, around retention, our retention is well above 94% despite the losses in Q2. And of the contracts that expires in the near future, so in 2024, I see no red flags. So in summary, in terms of our commercial landscape, we're making good process in the commercial space, and I think things are looking really promising. In terms of your question on DWP, then we do expect, and that's fully included in the guidance that there will be a mobilization cost incurred in the second half of this year. We also had that in the first half just related to DEFRA and [ Bygningsstyrelsen ], and we expect that to the same extent in the second half. But again, that is included in our guidance of above 5%. And actually, the point on mobilization cost is a very good one because that's the right thing to invest in that to make sure that we're getting off to a good start with the contracts that we are starting up. What has been done on both DEFRA and [ Bygningsstyrelsen ] is that we have invested into, for instance, getting project people on board so that they are setting up the right project regime and framework, which, of course, gives a period of time where we are carrying some costs without any offsetting volume, offsetting revenue, but we can see that that's the right thing to do from a longer-term perspective because then we are well positioned to get our arms around these opportunities once we have gone live with the contract.

The next question is from Peter Sehested from ABG.

Yes. A couple of questions on my side. First of all, if you could just follow up on the previous question with respect to the mobilization costs into '25, if you could give us a heads-up on what we should expect there? I didn't believe you touched upon that part of that question. And then in terms of volume growth, clearly below my expectations, but also looking at the past couple of years, retention rate has increased. However, tracking your volume growth, it has actually decreased. So just a little bit of your comment on that observation? And what are you actually doing in the U.S. to ramp up new contracts wins as fast as possible? I know you just got your new CEO on board, so perhaps some of what his ideas are to ramp that up into the U.S. And potentially a follow-up question after these 2.

Thanks, Peter. So back to DWP, I also expect mobilization costs in the first half of 2025, and -- but it's not anything that is material or where you should expect that the business is going backwards. As I said, in the above 5% for 2024, and it's the same magnitude that I expect throughout the months in '25 before we go live with the contract. And again, it's factored into our guidance for the above 5% this year, and absolutely the right thing to do. Just in terms of volume growth, and I mean, a couple of things on this one. We are growing with our existing customers. We're doing that in the first half, and we'll continue to do so in the second half. So we're growing approximately 1% with our current customers. And then, of course, do I sit here as a CEO and try to polish things up in terms of new wins when we have a negative contribution to our growth? Of course, I don't. And that's disappointing. We are having a negative contribution from new wins of slightly less than 1% in the first half. I expect that to be a significantly lower negative contribution in the second half. So it's improving in the second half, and that is factored into our guidance. And that, of course, has to do with the contract starts that we have started here now, which will start to have a positive impact in the second half. But one thing is this year what -- in all due respect, what is more important to us is that we are seeing growth in the midterm and in the long term. And I have no reason to believe that, that shouldn't be the case given what I just mentioned to Simona on the first question. In particular, in the U.S., your question around that, Peter, I mean, we are pleased with the appointment of Steven Quick, as I said, but we also have to appreciate that he started in July. So of course, Steven will need a bit of time. But I just want to highlight a few things around the U.S. One, you mentioned how are we going to mobilize contracts there. We have a strong platform in the U.S. If you look at the results for the first half of this year, then we're improving margins with 60 basis points versus the same period last year. And it's a platform where I'm comfortable that we can absorb new volume without having to increase our overhead costs accordingly. And 1 year of negative growth in the U.S., of course, I'm not pleased with that, but that doesn't change our perspectives around that market in general. There is a lot of untapped opportunities in the U.S., and in the longer term -- midterm and longer term, we are planning to get our arms around that and utilize that.

Cool. And my final question was around the cash flow and capital utilization. Could you just add what to expect the factoring for the full year? And then in terms of -- on capital allocation, clearly, what is your view on M&A at this point in time? Because it seems to me that the best way would be to sort of buy cheap companies, and your share looks like one of the cheapest around. So thought on whether your cash flow use should be more concentrated towards buybacks than external M&A.

Mads?

Yes. So thank you very much. Some questions here. Let me take the last one on the M&A side. First, I think it's important to state that we have a very firm M&A strategy. We are doing smaller bolt-on acquisitions, and we are only doing it in improving countries. And it's also only within right service lines. And you have to remember, and the proof is really in the pudding here, all the transactions we have done lately are delivering according to plan or even better. And of course, they need to fulfill the strategic fit I just talked about. And to your point, we do see a return on invested capital that is higher than our WACC. However, we -- how we're going to split it? We have a very firm capital allocation policy, and I can ensure you that I also support that fully here.

Yes. So, Peter, just also a few comments. I agree with what Mads said. We do not have any M&A in the pipeline here for the coming -- the short future in ISS. So we agree with what you mentioned around capital allocation and the attractiveness of doing share buyback. And that's, of course, also what you're seeing with the increase of the DKK 250 million here in first half. And on factoring, just real quick, you should expect factoring to increase with the same percentage as our organic growth. Then I'm fully aware that it's slightly higher in first half. I think it's a little more than DKK 50 million higher. That's simply because the growth that we have with customers, that has invoices, that are eligible for factoring, are higher than the 6%, the 5.9%. But for the full year, and what is included in the guidance, is that the factoring will increase in line with the reported organic growth percentage.

The next question is from Vermeulen from Morgan Stanley.

Just one question on my side. It's about that just I wanted to pick up on the situation in the Americas, and it seems that the contract that you've been losing, exiting are biased towards that region specifically. So just wanted to understand if there is any specific factors in that region, whether it is pricing, positioning, discussion with clients that would explain why it is the case that you're losing contracts mainly in that region compared to others. And just want to make sure I got that right. You flagged that you're expecting low -- negative low double-digit organic growth. Can you just clarify whether it's in Q3 or over the rest of the year? And what's the assumption that has been put in that low double-digit organic growth in that region, whether it's just the impact of contracts you've lost to date or if you're expecting any additional work around the perimeter and potentially exiting additional contracts there?

Okay. So let me provide some context to the reduction, the loss that you're referring to in Americas that we have announced here in Q2. This particular customer are going through some significant changes in their business. And as a consequence, they have insisted on commercial terms that ISS doesn't entertain. And after several discussions, where the parties couldn't agree, then we decided to separate the relationship. And now, of course, to the other part of your question, that is, of course, poking 2 relevant questions. And the first thing is that, is that a trend both in the U.S. and more at a global scale? And it absolutely isn't. These are specific cases that we don't see will replicate elsewhere, neither in the U.S. And the second thing, which I guess you also have in your mind is, of course, are we not competitive in the U.S. and maybe also even broader? And we absolutely are. If I look at the retentions that we have successfully secured here in the first half, then almost all of them without any exceptions that has been tested in the market, including with the Barclays process. So we're absolutely price-competitive against the competition. In terms of your expectations, I mean, I'm not guiding on regions, neither on half years, but the double-digit without getting -- being more precise, you should expect that to happen from Q3 as already because this contract is going out or has gone out here in the beginning of July.

The next question is from Klaus Kehl from Nykredit.

Yes. Klaus Kehl from Nykredit. Just one question from my side. When you think about the growth bridge for '25, what kind of number or effects from new contract wins would you expect in '25 as of today, yes, given all the moving parts in the contracts that you have seen here in -- yes, so far in '24? That would be my question. And I know you haven't guided for '25. So it's more like, yes, high-level thoughts.

So let me just -- I mean just come back to Americas. I just reflected a little bit here. So just to take the drama out of this one, I mean we're talking low double-digit negative in the second half. So I just want to put that out there to make sure that, that is clear for everyone. Obviously, we're in August 2024, and I'm not going to provide any detailed guidance for '25, Klaus, which I'm sure, and I know that you will appreciate. However, there is no reason to believe next year that we shouldn't continue to grow with our existing customers. We're seeing that as a clear trend that we are tapping into the available volume with our current customers and with the importance of an office environment and the investments that customers are willing to make to make sure that they're getting their workforce back into the office space. There's no reason to believe that we shouldn't continue to grow with our current customers. And then I also expect a positive from new net contract wins, of course. We are having a quarterly impact from DWP next year. We have a number of significant contracts that are in final stages of completion, and no reason to believe that, that shouldn't have a significant positive impact next year. And from a retention point of view, then I don't have any big ticket items where there is a red flag hanging around.

Okay. But it was actually the new contracts that I was referring to. Given what you know today, yes, what would you expect for '25? Could you elaborate a bit on that?

I don't want to give you any specific number, but I can say that much that I expect it to be a positive contribution.

Okay. Fair enough.