Itaúsa S.A. (ITSA4) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to focus on results. I am Priscila Grecco, I am the CFO of Itausa. It's a pleasure to be once again with all of you to share the results of 2024 of the Holding. Also to give you the prospectus for 2025 and answer your questions, we have Alfredo Setubal, the CEO of Investor Relations of Itausa. Welcome, Alfredo. Welcome to another event.

Good morning, everyone. Good morning to our audience. It's a pleasure to be here to talk about our results and the good perspectives that we have.

Before going over the agenda of the event, we have simultaneous translation into English. All you have to do is click in the United States flag on the platform to access the translation. And you can and you should take part of our event. Submit your questions, comments, suggestions using the platform, clicking in the message box or through YouTube on your comments or via X using the #ResultadosItausa. Please take part. Let's talk about our agenda for today. We start talking about the business environment that permeated 2024 and bringing a few perspectives for '25, going over the results in '24 of the holding and panorama of our invested companies. Let's talk about liquidity management. The results of liability management that we have implemented. We'll talk about proceeds. Very important for our shareholders. Then we will close the event with the Q&A session. To start, I'm going to invite Alfredo and actually ask you, how do you interpret 2024? What is your perspective for 2025 in terms of business perspectives, macro environment?

We had a 2024 with a growth for the third year in a row, a bit above what was expected over the last 3 years. We grew 3.4% last year and the GDP, and that generated a better result for the companies. They sold more. On the other hand, there was an inflationary pressure that led to the inflation above the target, which is 3% that we're working with around 5% inflation. This inflation has led the Central Bank to the increase in the interest rates, as we've seen last year, and we will see it this week as well at the coupons meeting. Therefore, this is an environment that from the international standpoint had its own challenges, high interest rates dropping less than what we expected inflationary pressures in the United States and Europe, a very challenging environment for 2024. But with the growth in the economy, the results of the companies was positive, all of them going over the budget, annual budgets in the case of our invested companies. For 2025, we have an environment that is similar to last year. We are going to have an economy growing less than 2024, probably a growth of 2.5% a year with a focus in the agribusiness and less industries and services, but still a positive year in terms of growth. We will continue to live with high interest rates due to the inflationary pressure that continues to happen in Brazil. It should be kept as such this year. But still, this is a positive environment for business. We believe that our invested companies are going to have great results regardless of the challenging environment. And more challenging so in the international arena, we are seeing the American government with erratic policies of tariffs and so on and so forth. That evidently doesn't help emerging economies such as Brazil that has an economy that is more frail than the developed countries. A year that is positive nonetheless, and we believe that our companies will have good results.

Good, Alfredo. After this macro context, I wanted to give you a panorama of our results in '24. We reported last year to the market our record results, results that overcame the records. We got to the recurring and total net revenue of BRL 14.8 billion, a growth that is very expressive in regards to the previous year, 22% of increase, which leads us to a recurring ROE of about 17.4%, almost 2 percentage points above what was reported last year in 2023. And 2023 was a year that we had extraordinary results with the selling of the shares of XP, and we reported a capital gain that was important in '23 that didn't repeat this year because we already sold 100% of our participation in XP in 2023. So a growth of 10% in regards to this space is very important. Therefore, reflecting the solidity and the consistency of our portfolio. Our portfolio getting to market value at the end of the year, BRL 121 billion, a drop in regards to the last year following the performance of the Ibovespa rate in the period. And we have to see how our share performed in regards to the benchmarks. We have 2 indices of reference very much used by the market, Ibovespa and IBrX-100. And in every period that we analyze, our actual shares are performing above the benchmarks of the market, therefore, reinforcing the capacity to create growth, value and delivery of results and dividends to our shareholders in a very attractive way. Let's talk about the discount. Discount is a theme that is very much discussed. We still see our discounts at the end of February getting to the 24.5%, an increase in regards to the previous years and months, not reflecting still the lack of the fiscal inefficiencies that is definitive that what we expect for '27 when we see the extension of the PIS and COFINS tax and the total elimination of our fiscal inefficiency that today is incident on the profit sharing that we received from Itau Unibanco. And we're talking about BRL 650 million a year, which is very relevant for Itausa. So still, the share is not being priced considering the end of the fiscal inefficiencies that happened at the end of '27 that end on the interest of our capital. So the discount is still much higher than what we had considered fair.

Yes. It's a discount, Priscila, the market value of Itausa is less than its participation in the bank and the other participations that we have in the other companies invested that are nonfinance companies, very high discount of 24.5% higher if we consider that the shares of Aegea and Copa Energia, since they are not listed companies, they are accounted for the record -- the values on the records. So if we get these 2 companies that we would get a discount of 2%, 3%. So we're talking about a real discount of 27%, 28%, very high. But this is an opportunity for the investors to share -- to buy a portfolio that is extremely quality oriented with shares of Itau Unibanco, several companies that are nonfinance at a discount. You're buying those shares at a discount. And it's an opportunity of purchasing that is very favorable for the investors. We hope that when the stock exchange improves and we are at the high interest rates and it doesn't favor the investment in shares of risky investments, but we believe that, that discount will go back to the records of 22%, still high. We understand that these discounts should be below 20%. If we consider those aspects that you consider, which is the end of the fiscal inefficiency that will make Itausa have an expense -- tax expense of BRL 650 million per year less. So all of this added up should get to a smaller discount. Lower discount, but the market has their own reasons that we cannot explain.

Let's go over the results of our investor companies. Almost all of them did the reports to the results of the market, I'm going to glance over, and then we're going to get into the results of Itausa. So Itau Unibanco in IFRS, BRL 41 billion in net revenue and the ROE, 21%. Alpargatas had a recovery in the year, specifically in the activities of Havaianas Brazil, growing 64% of the EBITDA recurring and closing the net revenue of BRL 658 million in the year, a growth in regards of '23, BRL 115 million, sorry. Dexco construction material, very good for wood. The growth in the EBITDA and getting to BRL 200 million in the year, a drop in regards to the previous year where we had more reflections of the biologic assets. CCR, infrastructure, also growing with the EBITDA, delivering a result of BRL 1.8 billion, an important growth in almost all the models of operations. Aegea, utilities in new concessions, and we had a growth of 41% of EBITDA and a reflection in its revenue growth of consolidated revenue of 52% by the entry of the new concessions and new economies. Copa Energia recovery of spreads, a year that we had a performance that was also positive in regards to the previous year, with net revenue growing 6%, getting to BRL 597 million per year. And NTS with all the reflections of IGP-M and the contracts and revenues, tax and incidental here, net revenue -- 6.6% EBITDA and BRL 1.3 billion net revenue in the year. And how do we see these results at Itausa -- our results? BRL 14 billion. And we have the competition of our net revenue. It comes from the results of our invested companies with a highlight for Itau Unibanco, BRL 15 billion. This is the main asset, which is Itau Unibanco. When we add all the non-finance companies have contributed with BRL 800 million of results. It's a result that grows that is even more important for our results composition. Our own result, the component always negative because of the expenses of Itausa. We're talking about the administrative expenses, but essentially, our tax expense gets in here, stable in regards to the previous year. In our finance results, our expenses with interests and our debentures deducted from the profitability of our cash flow. I'm going to talk about all these components, understanding the growth drivers of our results. Our results grew 22%, BRL 2.6 billion year-on-year, recurrent results. What were the main drivers in this growth? Mainly our results in the investor companies growing 18%. So a growth that is very robust, reflecting the quality of our portfolio, our growth of BRL 2.4 billion coming from our portfolio from the finance and the non-finance sector contributing positively for this growth. And we also have another component that is very important, BRL 282 million of an increase of our results stemming from an improvement of our finance results. This is a reflection of the movement of strategy for the payment of that refinancing with the objective of reducing the cost of the debt. And here, it improved our results expressively. We're talking about 50% mainly of improvement of our finance results year-on-year. And this is a result of the liability management program. Talking about our own results. Our own results, stable on the year. So we're growing just 1%, even having all the reflections of inflation of corrections of the contracts that are in the administrative expenses. Our administrative expenses are stable year-on-year. And we still have a reflection on the more donations for our Institute, Itausa. It's 1 year since its inception, and we have an investment of BRL 50 million a year. So we had a greater contribution and impact of these donations for projects that are supported by the institute. These higher donations are neutralized with the lower impact in the tax expense in the FY. So this is result that is stable in the period. Going over the finance results, our committee. Our financial result improves almost 50%, contributing to our results of BRL 282 million. That is due to less expenses on interests because of all the refinance and prepayment of debts that we did in the period. A great deal of the explanation stems from the strategy of liability management in the period. Let's do a deep dive in the liquidity management. Before we start talking about this, I would like to remind you, you can submit your questions using the message box and the platform via YouTube on the comments. Or if you prefer, via X, using the #ResultadosItausa. Let's get into the liquidity management theme. Very important. And we are executing a strategy since 2022. With the results of reducing our indebtedness, improving the profile, reducing the service on the debt. So 2022, we started this movement with the objective of reduction of our gross debt, prepaying BRL 1.8 billion in debt in 2023, we did 2 movements, important. One-off prepayment with the reduction of the debt and another refinancing. So increasing the deadlines, average deadlines of our debt. And last year, you should have followed them. We did another movement of increasing the -- broadening the average deadline of our debt, and we reduced it in a very relevant way. The average cost of our debt through a refinancing of one of our debentures of BRL 1.3 billion in value. So when we compare since September '22, which is when we got to the peak of the debt after the acquisition of CCR, we had a reduction of practically 50% of the service to the debt, our average deadline increasing 2.3 years. We zeroed our amortization until 2028. And our agencies operating that cover us, evaluate the credit risk of Itausa attributing AAA rating in recognition of our strategy, liquidity management and the mitigation of any risk of refinancing of our debt. Now let's look at our schedule of amortization or that profile. Cash is very robust, BRL 3.6 billion in the year, zeroed all the amortization until 2028. So our first payment of debt happens in 2029. We have a schedule that is very healthy, very much aligned with our capacity of cash generation specifically in the non-finance sector, our average cost, reducing after refinancing of 2% -- from 2% to 1.5%, and we're getting to the average deadline of our debt 6.6 years. Our net debt closing the year in this threshold of BRL 1.1 billion. All the indicators of interest and leverage very healthy, demonstrating that the solidity of our balance sheet and the recognition of the results of our liquidity management program. Let's go over our next theme, proceeds. Proceeds is very much demanded by our shareholders. We had in February, a news that was relevant for our shareholders, which was the statement of dividends and interest of our capital additional that we had anticipated from 2024 onwards. And we closed the year with a payment of BRL 9.597 billion in proceeds. So that means a growth of 20% in regards to 2023, reaching a payout of 68%, a growth that is very important for -- in regards to the previous year, leading us to a dividend yield for our shareholders of almost 11%. We consider that the base date of February after the extraordinary dividends declared. It's the fifth biggest 1 in B3, it's very attractive remuneration for our shareholders, right?

Yes, very attractive. 3.8% on the return of investment for our shareholders that stuck with us this -- last year, this year was a very high return. We continue 10.8% return. We pass on the dividends of Itau Unibanco for our shareholders. We did that once again in this FY. It's important that we have this big flow given the return. Of course, the return of the dividend yield is influenced by the discount. The higher the discount, the higher the dividend yield. Nonetheless, as you stated, higher dividend yield, third -- fifth biggest one of Ibovespa. And this places Itausa not only as a solid company, diversified company from the business standpoint, but also a big payer of dividends and proceeds for the investors. Another important issue that we also announced in February was our call of capital in the amount of BRL 1 billion, allowing the shareholders to use part of the proceeds or the totality of their proceeds that are still pending for payment to exercise the preference right on the shares with the objective of facilitating the lives of our shareholders and a price that we define very attractive with 30% discount.

In regards to the last 120 days average of negotiation of the share, the average price, BRL 6.7 per share on the subscription and the shareholders that have the right of preference that we're in the base of shareholders in February 17, and the deadline is ongoing for the preference of the shareholders that still haven't done their right, please talk to your house and access the information that is available in the social networks or talk to us should you have any doubts. You have until April 10 to adhere to this preference right for this subscription. At the end of the year, we have the payout of shares. We did another one, 5% of shares, BRL 7 billion in reserve and also issuing BRL 516 million in shares. So another component, Alfredo, for the creation of value for our shareholders.

On the call to capital for the reduction of debt, our policy of continuing to reduce the debt of the company due to the perspective that the interests are going to continue to be high for a long period. We understand that the best way is to reduce the debt. And the quality of capital is very attractive. It's a negotiation at almost [indiscernible]. This is a big discount below the patrimony asset value, where all the shareholders are going to have the right to exercise the subscription, and you can marry it with this -- with our financial flow with these dividends that are going to be paid at the end of the subscription. Very interesting for the investors to acquire the shares.

Before giving the floor to Alfredo, he will do the final reminders. Well, Itausa publishes the relevant information on the Holding and also on the portfolio on our newsletter, the website and also the social networks. Follow-up Itausa at X, Instagram, register at the YouTube channel and sign our newsletter. Now I would like to ask you that at the end of this transmission, please answer our questionnaire, satisfaction questionnaire so we can improve at every edition of the event. So just capture this QR code that you can see here or click at the button right below the transmission window. Now Alfredo, I am certain that everyone would like to hear your closing arguments. Could you give us an outlook? Well, we discussed a lot about the numbers of '24. These are very robust, record numbers of Itausa and our invested companies. Can you give us the panorama of -- and also give us the outlook for '25?

I'm not going to do a deep dive of all the details, I think that the investors, if they should, like, they can access the details. 2024 was a good year regardless of the difficulties. The company has performed very well. Especially Itau Unibanco, which had an excellent year. We expect for this year, it's a difficult year with high interest rates, the economy is slowing down, but still a good year. We've seen the first months with a level of activity good, and this gives us a tranquility we want 2025 still positive in terms of growth and results of our invested companies, mainly Itau Unibanco very well positioned in the finance system with a credit policy, very good. Delinquency, very low. We believe that Itau Unibanco, our biggest investor company that represents a great deal of our values and investments, is going to have a very positive year. This should be reflected on the other companies. Regardless of the internal difficulties, international difficulties, high interest rates, high interest rates still abroad, we achieved a very solid portfolio. Companies that are well managed with a good flow of investment that is growing, and we're going to capture this year, a very positive year for our invested companies, reasonably sure that we're going to have a good year.

Well, thank you, Alfredo. And now, it's the time to answer your questions. Our guests, our analysts and our public before Itausa celebrates this year, its 50th anniversary. And this important landmark is still ongoing. Let's start with the questions from the analysts that we invited. They're going to ask their questions live. You can also submit your questions on the box of the platform or also through YouTube on the comments. We're still using X on the #ResultadosItausa. The first guest is Thiago Batista, UBS. Hi, Thiago. Welcome. Ask your question.

I'm going to be repetitive. I am clearly with the view that Itausa is the best way of investing Itau. But the discount is increasing month by month and today is about 25% and the highest levels of the last year, obviously. It's not something that you're happy about, but still, I wanted to understand within the points that you have control, 2 to 3 questions. Is there any change? Do you expect any change in the proceeds of Itausa to the shareholders, the payment, do you have a vision that the PIS, the COFINS and the inefficiency is really going to be over in '27? And three, do you expect a diversification of the assets? So I'm just trying to map and to explain this increase of the discount, I don't find the explanations to see. Therefore, if there is a change in the 3 points that I think are crucial for the definition of this discount. I congratulate you. I think that it's better than it was last year.

Thank you, Thiago, for the participation. I think that the discount, we are approaching this issue with our investors, the market, we still see a discount at a very high threshold still going up. Over the last years and days, there was a reflection in the adjustment because of the dividend statement. Still very high. And I think that an important point is that we had the approval, regulation of the tax reform happening in January. That brings a definition -- clear definition that we will have the end of the fiscal inefficiency already working in January of '27 with the extension of the PIS and COFINS tax and the non taxation of the finance revenue by EBS, IBS and CVS. So we have clearly a fiscal inefficiency that will last in a very definitive way the way that it's just going to be 2 years of the fiscal inefficiency that today is not a threshold of BRL 650 million. We had the impact of PIS and COFINS, Itausa and IUPAR and the market still not capturing that. What we foresee by the talk that we have in the market that they're not in doubt about the transition period, how it's going to happen. So there is an interpretation that is wrong, maybe of the market in regards to the transition, the end of when the fiscal inefficiency happens, the end, which is 2027. The market is still going to take some time to understand with surety and clarity, all the reflections of the fiscal inefficiencies and the tax reform. Talking about the proceeds. We do not have a perspective of any changes, any change in our practice. We are still passing on the proceeds that we received from Itau Unibanco. We just had the example, for 2024, Itau Unibanco did the additional dividend statement, and we followed and passed it on fully to our shareholders the same proceeds received. No change that can justify any change in the market with our discount. And in regards to the third question of diversification, Alfredo can comment.

Certainly, at this moment, Thiago, our vision -- taking into consideration that the interest rate in Brazil is still high and the revenues of Itausa are essentially connected to the dividends and interest of capital that we receive from our invested companies, we understand that the best alternative for the reduction of the debt of the company, even though it is at reasonable levels, taking into consideration this interest rate, we do not see any investments, new investments that we could do that could give you a return that would cover the interest rates plus a premium of risk by the execution of the investment. So our strategy still of is of reduction of the debt of the company. Eventually, if we gave a better result for the shareholders and we admit this, and we do this math, taking into consideration of all the uncertainties in the Brazilian economy, the policy, international policy, all the reflections that, that will give you in Brazil, we prefer a more cautious vision and still being able to reduce our indebtedness. This is why we're doing the BRL 1 billion call at a price as Priscila has said, with a discount of 30% in regards to the 120 previous days of negotiation. So all the shareholders have the right to subscribe. And we believe that it will be successful. This resource will be used with the resources and cash flow through the reduction of the debt of the company.

Thank you, Thiago. Now, Eduardo Nishio from Genial. So Eduardo, please take the floor.

I have 2 questions. First, to follow up, just to quantify the previous question. How much do you estimate of discount stemming from the fiscal inefficiency? First question. And the calculation 7%, 6% is a number that is reasonable, but it depends on the interest of our capital that you're paying. And the second question is in regards to the fourth quarter specifically, the close here was very good to see the growth in almost all the company. Nonetheless, the fourth quarter came with some investment companies with a result that is not what was expected. Can you explain, therefore, what happened in the fourth quarter, specifically in the non-listed companies, Aegea as an example? And also, if you can talk about Dexco, a result that was not what we expected.

Thank you, Nishio. Thank you for your participation. Let's answer the fiscal efficiency. Your number is correct. Our calculation is 7 percentage points of our discounts today is equivalent to the fiscal inefficiency with the threshold last year was BRL 650 million IUPAR plus Itausa. This year, our tax expenses really follow-up of TJLP. So the capacity of the bank declaring the interest of our capital will follow up on this TJLP and then we foresee the expenses, tax expenses at Itausa. The discount level, we understand that it's going to be above that, 7 percentage points, but it depends on the size, the capacity of the bank of declaring and it's a reflection of the PIS/COFINS of Itausa, above that. In regards to the fourth quarter, we had a few reflections on the nonfinance invested companies. So if we see the operational performance, they had a fourth quarter of growth in regards to the previous year. But we had a few events that were specific. In the case of Alpargatas, with the write-off of stocks that was broadly discussed with the market. That had a reflection in the fourth quarter. Consequently, a reflection in our patrimony equivalents. Dexco. When we compare 2023 with '24, still, there is a reflection of reevaluation of biologic assets that didn't happen in this quarter in the same magnitude. We didn't have the reevaluation of the biologic assets in this quarter. So the comparison is problematic. And we had a few specifics in LD Celulose, one that is accounting, there is no cash reflection and another one, which is the payment of FIII of structuring that they did of the debt of LD Celulose. So CCR, we also had specific reflections in the last quarter with an increase of expenses because of the demobilization that was expected of Via Oeste. First quarter, we had a few effects that were more pinpoint, but looking operationally, the invested company still had a solid result in terms of results. This is what I wanted to comment.

Well, I think that you've discussed the main points that affected the last quarter of the year of the invested companies.

Well, I wanted to call the next invitee, Goldman Sachs. And -- well, you can ask your question.

I wanted to talk about the tax reform. Until 2027, we have 2 follow-ups. The implementation to see if there is any risk just to understand that inefficiency of PIS/COFINS is 100% addressed and then this issue of the tax reform. If you can talk about the interest tax and how does it impact the company?

Yes, the fiscal inefficiency in our understanding is 100% approved. It will exist and will happen in 2027 with the regulation of the tax reform that happened at the beginning of the year, we have that clarity -- maturity of 2027. We don't have the taxation of the PIS/COFINS. So we're talking about the revenue of the interest of our capital, but also the profitability of our cash flow. And a great deal of our inefficiency is the taxation of the PIS/COFINS tax over the interest of our capital. So the revenue of interest of the capital. So we have to follow up in 2023, therefore -- 2027, sorry, we should see an impact on the results. In regards to the other question, taxation of dividends. I apologize. This is an issue that we haven't seen a lot about it over the last month, but we don't see this impact happening for Itausa. As the interest of our capital that we have, the impact of the income tax at these floors and we use it as a credit to do the statement of the interest of our capital. We see that the mechanism is going to be very similar, should we have a taxation of dividends. So we're going to have the source income tax and then the retention of that in our statement, so the impact is always for the finance shareholder, and not Itausa. Itausa passes on the dividends, and we end up receiving a bit less of cash, and we use this credit for the income tax to do their compensation when we do the statement. But obviously, we're going to map and understand how this dynamic is the change in the taxation to evaluate what are the impacts. But looking at the taxation of the interest of the capital, we don't imagine impacts happening for Itausa. But surely for our final shareholder, that is going to have a reflection of taxation.

Just to complement, Priscila. If there is a taxation of dividends, our expectation is that there is a reduction of the taxation of the companies. So the government has discussed. The Minister Haddad always said, well, I don't know what's going to be approved by the Congress. But this tax reform, the taxation of the proceeds and the dividends, interest of our capital, it would be neutral from the standpoint of the government getting its fair share. We will see how it's in practice, but our expectation is that if there is a change in the taxation of interest of our capital dividends, there should be a compensation of the reduction of the [indiscernible] of the companies. And as Priscila has stated, the dividends, if it's taxed, it's going to be taxed the last distribution for the final investors. So Itausa would not be taxed. We hope that we will not be taxed in cascade in such a way that those that are taxed are the shareholders of Itausa. There is a lot of discussions and a lot of things open. And throughout this year, we're going to see how this is conducted by the Congress.

Our next guest, Yuri Fernandes, JPMorgan.

First question about the administrative expenses, a small area of the total inefficiency, it's about 1%. It's not an area that we pay a lot of attention. But I think you did very well this year. The administrative expenses is flat this year, and contemplation is fine. So I wanted to understand, you talk about some the cost of guarantees and some contract renegotiations. Can you give us some more color on that? Another thing, the Institute Itausa. There were administrative expenses that were first allocated in this mine, and now you separate it. And now you have the answer to it. Can you just understand what are the results? And what should we expect up a ahead? Second question, items of discount. It's a very dear subject for everyone. Well, you commented if we are going to use the peers' multiples in the invested nonlisted companies, we could see something like 300 bps of inefficiency, which is 24%, 25%, nowadays, it would run to 27%, 28%. Do you have that updated number? How do you see if you use the multiples of markets and other investment companies, what should we see of discount of Itausa today?

Thank you, Yuri. In fact, our administrative expenses is stable even when the inflation getting to 5%. And this is a reflection of some movements that we did for the renegotiation of contracts. With its unlock of efficiencies, we found a few opportunities, specifically the exchanges of guarantees that we conceded some legal proceedings that we were working with the banking finance, and we did the exchange by the insurance through a broad negotiation and the competition with the market and then we got a reduction that is very important of about half of these expenses. Another negotiation that is important is of a relevant contract, the custody of shares. We did a renegotiation, and we have this attentive onlook to other opportunities, we had a few consultancies that we canceled or we decreased the discount. So this is a very interesting work with our administrative expenses, and we could get good results. So we see that this expense is going to evolve according to the inflation, an accelerated growth due to the structure of Itausa. We followed on the growth and the complexity of our portfolio. Some structures had to be implemented, but we understand that there is a normalization and perspectives that are in accordance to the inflation over the next years. With regard to discount and the value of the nonlisted assets, we have in our calculation of discounts of Aegea and Copa Energia on the books -- value and the books and there is an important difference in regards to the book value and our overview of what is the fair value of these assets. That would lead to an increase, the adjusted discount in about 27%. We're talking about 27%, 28% if we look at the current discount. We would add 3% to 4% percentage points that we consider the fair value updated and also doing an exercise with the multiples. Getting market peers of these 2 sectors where we work with our investment companies, it's a very high discount.

Priscila, in regards to the expenses. Well, you are one of the biggest detractors of our expenses. This is an issue that we wanted to last year, give more attention. We thought that it was still high, still high in regards to what should be. So we did this important work of reviewing all these expenses, data processing, custody, internal expenses, consulting, and we did a good homework. This year, we're going to have the total effect of these expenses. Last year, it was partial. So we're going to have some reflection on this, but 1 point for the expenses this year. This year, due to the 50 years of Itausa, we have the additional expenses that will be specific for this year in regards to the events that we're going to do, the book that will be published for our investors, we're going to have a campaign in the social networks of the 50 years. So if we discount these expenses, extraordinary dispenses in marketing, then maybe we're going to be below the inflation due to what we will have the full year in the reduction of the contracts of last year. But the expenses this year will come up due to the FX relative to the 50 years of Itausa.

Next guest, Maria Guedes, Safra. Thank you for your participation.

I still wanted to talk about the discount, but looking on a different optic. Besides the reduction of the fiscal inefficiency, you had some few other levers. The receipt of higher dividends coming from the invested of the nonfinance sector. So what is your evaluation in terms of finance impact timing, viability? What would be the impact in these levers?

Well, we are expecting a dividend of the nonfinance that is higher. But we have these financial expenses that are very high due to the debt. We have an expectation that the interest rates Selic is about 15%. Therefore, this is a big detractor of the expenses, our expenses in regards to the revenue of the nonfinance sector. The non-finance sector also has companies that are -- that have a lot of indebtedness. CCR, there is a big investment, big long-term financing. Aegea has their own concessions and a CapEx that is enormous of investments. And with interest rates in this threshold, obviously, the cash generation of this company is compromised with the payment of interest. So we expect the growth this year of the nonfinance in regards to the dividends, yes. But these values are going to be much higher. And we don't expect -- and we hope that the threshold is going to be at a lower -- that the interest rates are going to be at a lower threshold. Regardless, we feel optimistic that throughout the next years, these dividends can be part, including of the dividends that are going to be distributed besides the dividends of Itau Unibanco. So these, going back to your point, this can reduce the discount. We can start to have dividend yields that are still higher once the nonfinancial companies pay more dividends for Itausa.

The next question, [ Anna Ehyus ], she's going to ask the question live.

It's clear that you do not see the opportunity for diversifying more of the portfolio at the moment that we are now. But my question is more in the sense of understanding if at the moment of the cycle of investment that you have -- that you are, do you see the opportunity of increasing reducing the participation in some of the invested companies?

At this interest rate level, considering 15% plus the risk of Brazil, 2%, 3% plus a premium, we're talking about returns of 18%, 20%, which is very difficult to find that in this context of Brazil, growth less, higher risk, international risks that are more evident. So we continue to see alternatives, yes. We have some NDAs signed, but we don't have any appetite that is very exceptional, a great opportunity so that we can effectively do any new investments. In regards to the assets, if there is an opportunity of increasing our participation, we would consider those hypotheses. We have good assets in companies that have good performance with good perspectives eventually having an opportunity, we will consider doing some sort of investment in the current companies of our portfolio, non-finance. We are not considering increasing our participation in Itau Unibanco regardless of Itau Unibanco being a bank with exceptional performance. The participation that we have in the capital of Itau Unibanco, 37-some-percent, is already enough. And if we have other opportunities for the shareholders, we are going to reduce this concentration of the portfolio of Itausa in regards to Itau Unibanco.

Next guest. Pedro Baptista from Jefferies. The floor is yours.

The follow up of this question in regards to the capital allocation policy. After your focus in reduction of debt, an increase -- due to the increase of interest rates when the market expected the opposite. So what are you going to change? How are you going to change the allocation of capital? Is it just the interest in Brazil or maybe a discount with [ IBEX ]? What are the catalyzers of these changes -- possible changes in the capital allocation? And also, what is the relative importance of the growth of NAV and the dividends in the future?

The big trigger would be a reduction in the interest rates and the risk -- Brazil risk, which are things, factors that we do not foresee this year or the next. From 2027 onwards, it will depend of who wins the election, what is the proposal, how is the international scenario. It's a complex scenario over the next years. So the biggest trigger would be, in fact, the reduction of the interest rates and the reduction of the Brazil cost. We are still seeing with the increase in our portfolio, but we do not see this in practice taking part. So from the standpoint of capital allocation, buying shares of Itausa is a good business. We do the discounts. We wanted to get the biggest -- the best alternative for investment that Itausa can do at this moment. But pondering the risks plus the concentration that we have in the shares of Itau Unibanco, we understand that the improvement, the best alternative for capital allocation that gives a return rate that is less than the repurchasing, but also very high would be reduction of the debt of the company. So we will consider with this. There is the reduction of our involvement deconcentrate the debt over the next few years over 2028 and reducing this level of concentration that we have. I think that this is the best alternative that the company has at the moment, that there is a lot of uncertainties in Brazil and abroad. And eventually, there might be an opportunity as we've seen in the previous question of increasing the participation in some of the companies that we have in our portfolio, depending on what is going on with these companies. So we're going to be very cautious, reducing debt and keeping our portfolio.

Alfredo, I think that we've serviced well our analysts and now I'm going to get the questions by our audience. We received a lot of them. So I'm concentrating the themes are repeating themselves. The first biggest demand is in regards to proceeds, subscription and modification. So [ Marcia de Oliveira, Mozar Cario, Olivera Julia ], several others asking about our remuneration practices and perspectives for 2025. Is there any change in the policies of distribution of proceeds?

So prospectus for 2025. This is an important question. Itausa is a big payer of dividends in terms of the capital. We hope to keep on passing on these dividends and interest of the capital that we received from Itau Unibanco, as we have seen. We're going to continue to do this in 2025. So we had this dividend yield of 3.08%. The dividends that we receive of the nonfinance, we've used to the Holding. The administrative expenses also. And we have, as I commented before, an expectation. And throughout the next years, these proceeds that are received will increase. And with that, we can do more investments should the economy abroad allow or change the level of proceeds that we distribute for the shareholders. This is something that we will see over the next years, and how this will behave, we will see. From the standpoint of this year, we've received a few questions. You're doing a subscription, you're going to pay the dividend, you're going to call back. We understand that we have this practice of distributing the dividends. For our shareholders, we didn't want to change this practice, but give our shareholders the -- they want the option to simply do what they want to do with the dividends. If they don't want to subscribe to the shares, it's their own dividend and the shares will be sold in the stock exchange. And if they think it's a great business, I think it's a good business. My shares with 30% discount, they can subscribe to the shares using this complementary dividend that will be paid in the final day of the subscription of the shares. So giving the shareholders the final decision of what they want to do with the resources distributed and it's not up to us, this decision. That's why we did this distribution, and it's a great priority to purchase shares at an attractive value. And since we are talking about the subscription and payouts, payout last year as possible, we are going to incorporate the reserves to the capital. So you increased the capital of the company and you do a payout in shares in such a way that the cost for the shareholder can increase. So as the cost increases and the shares have a cost so we are in the interest rate phase. You have to take the cost of these shares in December. If you don't remember, in our website we have it and increase the cost of your shares in the statement of the interest rate, you get the increase in the individual costs when you sell those shares, you will pay less taxes, less income tax.

Alfredo, going back to subscription. Some shareholders, [ Rogers Reyos, Marcos Araguarandez, Pilaretin ], some others. They wanted to know, how can we adhere to the subscription? They want to ensure their participation in the subscription, but they are still in doubt on how to do it.

The vast majority of our investors have the custody in the stock exchange where they purchased their shares. So you have to look for your house, and you have to tell them that you have the interest of doing a subscription, and it's up to the house to do this subscription. If you are in the registry of Itau Unibanco, then you will receive a bulletin of subscription directly at the address that is in the bank, and you can do this payment through the walleto.

And if you have any doubts, please talk to the Investor Relations team and access our website. YouTube videos, what is the subscription, how to adhere. So a lot of directed content for you to access in our social networks. Alfredo, we talked about portfolio management and investments. But still, there is a lot of questions from the audience. [ Felipe Favretto and Daniel Suman, Fabiana Amaral, Summer Lima, John Santoyo ], a lot of them asking, what are the directives for capital allocation over the next year for Itausa? How are you going to balance the cash generation for the shareholders with the investments and new opportunities of growth? Do we have the intention of increasing the participation in Aegea and they include the issue of the listing of Aegea and the Stock Exchange, has this been for -- focus for the investment?

Well, let's start by the end. A lot of questions. We have a lot of investments in CCR, Copa Energia. For Copa Energia in -- we've done a lot of this because Aegea, the utilities company, the sector of infrastructure in Brazil, it's very deficient. There is a lot of opportunities. The state-owned companies which are related, they are less efficient. So for you to purchase through Aegea, you have the probability of getting a higher return, and you can certainly capture more value at a privatized company. There is the concessions, which are good. Usually, the concessions, they bring a return that is very high, whether if it's the metro or highway or the concession of a city. So the big returns in Brazil, they are in the privatizations and concessions. And this is given because usually, these inefficient companies, the private sector has a capacity of management that is higher. It has better synergy from the standpoint of this investment. And with that, we can obtain synergies, cost reductions, improved revenues, margins. In the case of utilities, you can operate with less expenses in water. So the infrastructure sector allows, for the last years, a return on investment. And this is given because the rate -- tax rate is very high in Brazil. So while we still have that returns of the listed companies, they're going to have returns and that returns have considered low. It's very difficult for you at Brazil that grows very little relatively for you to get returns in the industrial companies that operate at a certain degree of leverage to have comparable returns with investment on the long term. So if you look at the stock exchange, in general, we have a bad scenario because in the end, they cannot overcome the cost of capital, which is very high. The interest rate plus the country risk plus the execution risk. It's very difficult for you to get returns of 17%, 18% a year. So we ended up seeing in the infrastructure sector, a channel that is very interesting of investments due to these inefficiencies. And we saw a lot of these inefficiencies at Itau Unibanco, which was the bank that purchased the most banks. If you remember last year, the current banks were very inefficient. So we see that, in fact, there is a gain of productivity for the Brazilian economy and the privatization of the companies. And now that the company has a lot of capacity for investment due to the high level of compromising the federal budget, which is very directed for expenses in health. So this led us to the infrastructure sector.

Now I think you talked about a great deal in the changes in the capital allocation.

Well, it's always something important. The company has a capital. What can they do with this capital? Well, they can do new investments that at this moment, there isn't a lot of appetite because of the macro conjecture in the world. We can buy our own shares. In thesis for Itausa, that would be great because we have a discount of 27%. So it would be a great business, or they can pay -- or we can pay debt. At this moment, we are paying for the debt because the scenario gives you a good return. So anticipating the payment of that gives you a good return rate is less than purchasing our shares. It's an alternative that is interesting. At this moment, we're paying for the debt, reducing the financial flow. And at this moment, we are seeing how the economy is behaving. And then we can think about the first alternative, which is increasing the investments in the new companies. There was a question about Aegea. Well, it's a listed company. It has investments where the CapEx that is very high. It's a sector that is -- has a lot of privatizations, concessions, and Aegea might need capital. So if we can increase the capital and take part in this, it would be, yes, an interesting capital allocation, increasing the participation because it's a sector that we still see with a lot of possibilities of returns for the investors.

Thank you, Alfredo. And now, questions about Alpargatas. We're talking about the perspectives of improvement for the company. We've had a better year. And Flavio asked if there is any plan for recycling the assets?

In regards to Alpargatas, Alpargatas suffered a lot because of internal mistakes, stocks that grew and you had to do the write-off. A series of problems. We had 2 years that were very bad. Last year, we improved the cash generation level. The company has a positive net debt, more cash than debt. So a situation that was -- that is better than the one before. And we expect this year to have a growth in the results, yes. We are seeing the company recovering gaining market share. We have a strategy that is more consistent in the international market. So we believe that the company will recover. So I would bring your attention to an asset that we have within Alpargatas, which is -- Rothy's is a company that, unfortunately, we purchased at a moment of very high valuation of the international stock exchange, but is performing very well. For the cash generation growth and revenue, very important. So I would call your attention that we are at -- with a good movement, and it will contribute with the results of Alpargatas in a more significant way.

Alfredo, going over the macro scenario, [ Wellington Nushus and Rivaldo ], they ask from the standpoint of Itausa, what are the biggest challenges in the national scenario? And Selic very high and the new commercial policy of the United States. What do we foresee in terms of challenges for Itausa?

Well, the international scenario, as I commented in the beginning, is a scenario of '25, '26. It's a scenario that is very challenging. We're going to have the Brazilian economy with high interest rates. My expectation is that at the meeting of coupon, there is going to be an increase in the interest rates and possibly, it will stop there. It depends on the behavior of the economy itself. It's an economy that is going to be less warm. Well, the economy is -- from January, we expect an interest rate that is high for this year. So this leads us to be very cautious in regards to the investments and the economy and the growth of this year is going to be pulled by the agri business. So we have to follow up with a lot of care. This scenario in regards to the tariffs of the United States, not even the President Trump knows what they're doing and what's going to happen. So he goes back and forth. It's a lot of -- it's an erratic behavior. Of course, there is a negotiation style that always get the worst on the table to do then, the negotiation seeming like he is giving away, but in practice, he knew -- he knows that he's not giving anything. So they can negotiate better regardless. This generates a lot of uncertainties. And what I told you, at this moment, it's a moment of care. We have the elections in Brazil next year. Elections in Brazil always generate a political climate that is nervous. So let's work with a lot of care and trying to reduce our indebtedness to give more tranquility to our shareholders.

Well, to finish with our -- well, [ Gustavo, Fernanda ], do they have -- Itausa has a plan of migrating for the new market now?

Itausa has a third of ordinary shares and then 2/3 of preferential shares. There is no perspective and change for the market now. A few investors look at all the practical publication of transparency, the Board policy, we are -- basically, we're following up on everything that the new companies of the new market do. The only thing that we do not do is having a partner, but this is not under discussion at this moment.

Thank you, Alfredo. I think we could service very well, our audience. Should you have not clarified your doubts, you can get in contact with the Investor Relations team with the profiles in the social networks or via e-mail. And Alfredo, once again, I wanted to thank you for your participation. We had a great event. A lot of questions.

A lot of questions, yes. It's important to have this transparency and to open -- and to talk openly live without censoring the questions. There is no theme that we cannot answer. We answered all the questions in an objective way, transparently. It's a great event. I thank you for your participation, and we're going to have over -- the next event, the 50 years. There is a communication in the social media, the 50 years of Itausa since 1975. So it's a story that is very -- for a long time of the pure holding. And let's go ahead. We have a lot of opportunities. We hope that the interest rate drops and then we can do new investments, and then Brazil can grow with a solid, sustainable base.

Thank you for your participation, and see you at the next focus on results. Thank you. [Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]