Ivanhoe Mines Ltd. (IVN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the Ivanhoe Mines Kakula Mine Investor Webinar. [Operator Instructions] This call is being recorded on Thursday, June 12, 2025. I would now like to turn the call over to Matthew Keevil, Director, Investor Relations and Corporate Communications.

Thanks very much, operator, and hello, everyone. First and foremost, thank you for joining us today, and welcome to the Ivanhoe Mines Kamoa-Kakula Copper Complex Update Call. As the operator mentioned at the forefront there, this is Matthew Keevil. I'm the Director of Investor Relations and Corporate Communications with Ivanhoe Mines. On the line today from Ivanhoe Mines, we have Founder and Executive Co-Chairman, Robert Friedland; President and Chief Executive Officer, Marna Cloete; Chief Financial Officer, David Van Heerden; Chief Operating Officer, Mark Farren; and Executive Vice President, Corporate Development and Investor Relations, Alex Pickard. Before we begin, I'd like to remind everyone that today's event will contain forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those in the forward-looking statements. Details of these forward-looking statements are contained in our June 11 news release as well as on SEDAR+ and at www.ivanhoemines.com. It is now my pleasure to introduce Ivanhoe Mines' Founder and Executive Co-Chairman, Robert Friedland. Please go ahead, Robert.

Good morning to everybody. This is Robert Friedland. I'm on the West Coast. So it's early in the morning here at 5 a.m. I want to welcome everybody to this comprehensive call. I want to start by noting the resilience and professionalism of our engineering and operations teams. I think that their virtues cannot be overstated. And our restart of the Kamoa mine is a testament to their capabilities and commitments. Looking at the over 30 years that we've been involved in this project, there's been a bump in the road for us, but it's really very minor in the long-term history of this mine that's going to go on for many, many generations. So I want to thank also the contractors and the technical consultants, and I really want to thank them for their expertise and partnership and adaptability. Since we started experiencing this seismic activity about 3 weeks ago, we brought in 2 of the world's best geotechnical experts in Beck Engineering and Open House from South Africa. They've been invaluable in terms of resuming our mining activities and planning a very strong future at Kamoa-Kakula. And these challenges we faced are really short term, but our long-term value proposition remains unchanged. We have a scalable high-grade copper asset with world-class infrastructure and growth potential. And in fact, the ocean of copper that we find ourselves in is continuing to grow. So for us, this is a process of learning how best to mine these giant shallow sedimentary systems at world scale. And everything that we're learning here is very valuable as the development of the Congolese Copper Basin goes forward for the next 100 years or so. Our top priority and everything we're going to talk about today has been the safety of our people and the integrity of our underground infrastructure. Everything that we're doing has been completed and has occurred without a single lost time injury. And it's really super important that we all agree that safety of our people is the #1 priority. It's the bedrock on which we build a sustainable mining industry. And while safety may take a little bit more time, it will never change as our highest priority. So our development pipeline now will include Kamoa and the Kansoko mine and the Kakula east expansion and the Western Forelands, which are continuing to grow prodigiously. And that development pipeline remains completely intact, and it's very rich with opportunities for continuing to lead our industry in copper growth for the foreseeable future, certainly measured in decades. And I would remind everybody, as we introduce the subject that Kamoa-Kakula remains the lowest carbon generator right at the bottom in terms of generating carbon per unit of copper. It's the highest grade copper system globally. It's the most scalable copper project globally. And that's positioning our team and our people to create value over generations for the Congolese people and for all of our shareholders and stakeholders. So with that, I'd like to turn it over to our able team and go through all of your questions and to understand everything that has occurred and how we're going to address it. Thank you.

Thank you, Robert. This is Marna. So good afternoon, good morning to everyone. So I want to start today with a little quote that I found that I think sort of captures what we are going through. Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, you don't turn around and give up. You figure out how to climb it, to go through it or to work around it, and that was by Michael Jordan. So I was on site as these events unfolded. And I would like to also personally thank every individual that played a role in, first and foremost, keeping everyone safe and then secondly, managing a situation with complete dedication and passion. But I would also like to caution our audience today that this is an evolving situation, and we will not be able to answer all your questions today. For example, it's too soon to give guidance for 2026 and 2027. We will not speculate on sterilization, if any, and we will not be able to provide complete clarity on capital and cost impact. So that will come a little later. But we will take you through our time lines as we proceed with this presentation. If we can go to the next slide, I will give you a short summary as to how the events unfolded. So on the 18th of May, we experienced seismic activity at Kamoa-Kakula at Kakula Mine as we put out in a press release. And we managed to evacuate all our personnel safely, and we also removed all our mobile equipment from underground. That seismic activity has continued, but it has since decreased. And as a result of the seismic activity, we flooded the eastern section of the Kakula Mine. Our engineering teams were working around the clock. And on the 2nd of June, they managed to install temporary underground pumping infrastructure and have managed to stabilize the water levels since this event. On the western side, the mine is mainly dry, but the eastern side remains flooded, but water are stable. As Robert mentioned, we managed to mobilize some of what I deem the best geotechnical experts to site as the event was unfolding, and we've been following their guidance since arrival on site and since they managed to get a handle on the situation. And then on June 7, our underground mining operations restarted on the western side of the Kakula Mine and our dewatering activities are ongoing on the eastern side. Next slide. So just to orientate the audience because not all of you have had the privilege to go to Kamoa-Kakula. But the block you see here in the middle, it's got a scale of 10 kilometers. That basically shows you the Kamoa-Kakula mining complex. And at the bottom, there's a little red block at the bottom of your screen. That is the Kakula Mine and the smelter. And as you can see, approximately 12 kilometers from there, you can find the Kamoa and Kansoko mines. And then what you see on the left and the right-hand side of your screen is basically sort of just a zoomed inversion from Google Maps as to where these mines are located. And the section we are going to focus our presentation on today is on the left-hand side of the screen, and that's basically the Kakula Mine. So the portion between what you see on your screen called the Kakula North Mine portal and the Kakula South Mine portal. So if you take that little block and you zoom into the next slide, then this basically shows you what the Kakula resource looks like. And the current mine workings is what you see on the right-hand side of your screen that's got the little black outline around it. So that's our current mine workings at Kakula. What I think is important to note on this slide is the grade profile of this ore body. It really is a magnificent ore body and the fact that we've only mined a small portion of this total reserve. So the little block you see here basically accounts for 30% of the reserve as at our last annual information form filing. If you look at the grade profile as to what's available, you can see the red section shows in excess of 5% copper up until the green, which is in excess of 2% copper. And you will also notice that when we talk about mine workings and we show you mine plans going forward that on the outer sides of the ore body, we start with sort of lower grades, even though it's high grade by any standards. And then the middle of the ore body is where the higher grade copper sits. If we then take -- and this is the total picture of Kakula. So this also includes just so that we don't -- we avoid confusion, this also includes Kakula West. So Kakula West is different from the Kakula western side. So if we go to the next slide, we're zooming into this little block here. That shows what the Kakula western side and eastern side of the current mine workings look like. And as I mentioned before, that is 30% of the total Kakula reserve. The western side is about 10% and the eastern side is about 20% of the 30%. And then we've mined approximately 40% in this area. So 60% of this area still remains to be mined. And as we mentioned earlier, we already started mining on the western side again. So with that as an introduction and orientation, I'm now going to ask Mark Farren to take you through our future plans and dewatering efforts. Mark, over to you.

Thank you. I'm working off my computer, so it's Slide 9 here on the water. Seismic activity caused damage to the underground pumping infrastructure. It was mainly access really that barred the people from getting to the pumping infrastructure. So we split the mine in between what we call horizontal pumping and vertical. And you can see all the green vertical infrastructure is still in place and working. And we've had to create temporary pumping facilities on the eastern side to be able to manage the flow rate, which has always been somewhere around 3,700 to 4,000 liters per second. We managed to get this done at the beginning of June. So we're now currently pumping at just over 4,000 liters a second and actually dewatering, in fact, we're slowly lowering the water levels as we speak. And then we've got a Stage Two process, which is basically targeting much higher flow rate pumps, which we're going to lower through some of the ventilation shafts to completely dewater the eastern side of the mine. So that's -- we're going to be putting in big pumps, 650 liters per second each, all of them. So that will give us about 3,000 liters a second, and that should dewater the eastern portion in quarter 3, quarter 4. By the end of quarter 4, we should be completely dewatered. The next slide, Slide 10. So the planning was to stabilize the pumping, which has been done and then recommence, as Marna spoke, recommence mining on the western portion of the mine. That has started. So we've introduced crews and we've been blasting over the last week as we stabilize the water. Then on the eastern side, we're going to do 2 things here. The first thing is we're going to be doing some redeveloping from both the top or, let's call it, the north and the south decline and establishing a regional pillar and then a new eastern footprint, mining footprint beyond that regional pillar. That's the first thing. And the second thing we're going to be doing is dewatering the eastern side within the old footprint. And that 60% of the ore body that's left, that will be targeted for extraction. So in other words, we'll be derisking the profile by dewatering and creating a new mining front in the front of the eastern section with the regional pillar, and then we'll be targeting what's left of the pillars on the eastern side, if you can understand that. And we expect this redevelopment work to be done quarter 2, 2026, and then there will be a new eastern footprint going east. And hopefully, the access into the eastern blocks will be there to be able to do the secondary extraction of what's left. Thank you. Next slide, Slide 10, guys. Just some history here. It's quite quick history, and obviously, we're all learning from this event. We believe that the seismic activity originated an area on the eastern side of the mine. In fact, our first mature percentage extraction area, where we had done the primary extraction, inserted the backfill. We found that in the area targeted for secondary extraction, that area started to yield. It didn't yield as we expected it to yield on to the backfill. It yielded on to the regional pillars, which became overstressed and they, in fact, started to scale. So that's what we found on the eastern section. What we're saying is that we think the backfill in the mined-out stopes was not capable of taking this stress redistribution elastically. And in fact, that distribution took place and went on to the regional support pillars. We are only going to know the full extent of this once we've done the dewatering. And as I said earlier, the total extraction in the area is quite low. So it's only these -- this was actually our first mature block that we had done full backfill and something that we need to learn from. Thank you. Next slide, #12. So it looks like in the next steps, and it's still -- we're still finishing geotechnical assessments with all our QPs. We've got Open House. We have Beck consulting on site, working on everything with us. But we do think short term, we're going to modify the pillars, so they will be bigger. We will start mining with bigger initial pillars and mine them out in a different sequence. So basically mine them to the boundary and then do retreat removal of secondary pillars. So if you can imagine in your mind, the pillars will be bigger upfront. We'll then mine all the way to the boundaries, and then we'll do secondary extraction by depleting the pillars that have been left behind. And then the final number that we land on, we don't have a final number of extraction, but we don't believe it will be the final 90%. It's probably going to be a bit lower than that. But there's a lot of work to still do before we get there. The other thing we're doing is enhancing the geotech monitoring across the mine. So -- and all of these things that we're doing are going to be applied to control Kamoa 2 and anything in the Western Foreland. So we think the work that we do in terms of pillar design, the methodology, the sequencing and then the secondary removal, the reliance on backfill, all those assumptions, we can apply right across the whole footprint, including the Western Forelands. And in addition to this, we are looking at Platreef, which is our South African mine, which we've just started mining now. And we're going to have a good look at KICO, which is our zinc mine in the DRC, just to make sure that we haven't missed a trick with anything. Okay. Next slide. Slide 13, Alex. So in the meantime, this is what we're doing. We've increased the mining rate at Kamoa and Kansoko. They have been running at a higher mining rate. The concentrator number 3, the new one has already been operating at 20% above nameplate. So it was a 5 million tonne concentrator running between 6.5 million to 7 million tonnes at the moment. We're going to carry on pushing that concentrator. We've also brought in additional crews. Some crews from [indiscernible] Kamoa, [indiscernible] Kansoko. So we're very lucky that we have shallow access to reef and also cruise 10,000 tonnes a day to go through this process at Kakula, reestablishing Kakula. Yes, and [indiscernible] and Kansoko mines, the sequencing, the extraction will all reflect the same geotechnical findings that we have now or that we are going to finalize. Thank you. Next slide. I think it's yours, Alex.

Yes. Thanks, Mark. It's Alex Pickard speaking. So I think Mark outlined very nicely there the initiatives that we have in place to maximize our mining footprint and the production rates from underground over the next few months. And now I will just sort of talk about how that's going to relate to processing and our concentrators. So our key objective during this time is very simple. It's almost the same as always, to keep our concentrators running as full as possible and with the best feed available to maximize the cash flows. So the 2 graphs on the right-hand side are showing the breakdown of the feed that's going to the concentrators. So the left-hand charts are the current run rate, and the right-hand side is really what we're targeting within the next 6 months or so. And we've broken that down into Phase 1 and 2, which is centered around Kakula and then also Phase 3, which is at the Kamoa mine, as Mark mentioned. So starting with Phase 3 because that's fairly straightforward. As Mark mentioned, Phase 3 has continued to be a star performer, and the intention is to keep the mill running well above its nameplate capacity, and that's directly fed from ore coming run of mine from Kamoa 1 and 2 and from Kansoko. Then looking at Phase 1 and 2 at Kakula, we have a few different levers that we can pull. So the first one is obviously using the capitalized stockpiled ore that we have on surface from the various development activities over time. And then the second one is by ramping up mining rates at Kamoa to supplement the ore feed at Kakula at Phase 1 and Phase 2. The current situation is that we are processing around 50% overall capacity, which is just coming from the stockpiles. We have between, say, 6 and 9 months of production based on the stockpiles depending on the drawdown rate. And the grade of those stockpiles are around 3%, but I would also just bear in mind that there is some impact on recoveries when reclaiming from the stockpiles given that they've been on surface for some time. So we estimate recoveries of between 75% and 85% for those stockpiles. And then moving to the right-hand side, where we want to get to for Phase 1 and 2 over the rest of the year is to increase to around 80% of our nameplate capacity, which is 9.2 million tonnes per annum. And so the way we do that is we'll gradually reduce reliance on the stockpiles by ramping up the run-of-mine ore from the western side of Kakula. As Mark mentioned, that's at a grade of 3% to 4% until we actually get back into that more central portion of the western side where we do have higher grades available. And then this is also planned to be supplemented with ore trucked in from Kamoa and Kansoko. So you can see that in the small red bar. That's at a grade of between 2% to 3% copper. And some of that will be coming from the new development that Mark has been talking about. And then towards the end of this year, we should have a much better idea of how much we can start to extract from the existing workings on the eastern side of the mine, but we're not making any projections on that right now. So the 80% of capacity is an estimate. We will make every effort to optimize this, look at the different production sources and see how much we can run through the Phase 1 and 2 concentrators. Next slide, please. So that processing plant is quite directly related to the smelter. And with those production volumes that we expect, we will now commence the heat up of the direct-to-blister smelter in September. So that's with the first production of anode in October. It's worth noting, so the smelter has a minimum operating capacity of around 50%. So it can operate at a rate of around 250,000 tonnes of copper output annually. And it's also worth noting that the metallurgy at the smelter at the margin, it prefers the Kamoa style concentrate to Kakula, it has slightly higher sulfur. So we are quite comfortable to ramp up the operations at Kamoa, including through the Phase 1 and 2 mills and have the right feedstock for the smelter. In terms of the inventory, we have about 33,000 tonnes of unsold copper in concentrate as at the end of May. That number is pretty similar to what we will carry until we start the ramp-up of the smelter and then that will sort of decline over time to more of a run rate. And then as we've mentioned, I think, many times before, but it's always worth repeating, the smelter does have a significant cash cost advantage. That comes in the form of dramatically lower shipping volumes, revenue from asset production, lower taxes, and there are other benefits to the smelter. But we think this is obviously even more important considering that we'll be processing lower grades through Phase 1 and Phase 2. And then finally, just to note, there is good news around the commissioning of Turbine #5 at Inga. So we will have 178 megawatts of clean hydropower coming into the DRC grid from October, which will be well timed in terms of the ramp-up of the smelter. Next slide, please. So looking at the 2025 revised production guidance, we have amended our 2025 guidance, which reflects the current situation and what's transpired in the last couple of months, but also the scenario for the remainder of the year that I outlined earlier. So I will reiterate again what Marna said, it is too soon to provide medium- to longer-term guidance, but rest assured, we are working around the clock on this, and we will update the market at the right time in terms of where we're targeting for 2026 and beyond. Looking at 2025, the new guidance range is 370,000 tonnes to 420,000 tonnes of copper in concentrate. And I think the waterfall on the right-hand side shows quite neatly what the main contributing factors are from the midpoint of the previous guidance, which was 550,000 tonnes of copper. So clearly, the biggest effect here is on Phase 1 and 2 centered around Kakula. First of all, we are obviously processing lower volumes as we have spare capacity in those Phase 1 and 2 concentrators. But actually, the more significant impact is the grade impact of roughly 3% coming off the stockpiles versus 5% run-of-mine grade, which was what we were previously getting from Kakula. And then there are also some smaller knock-on impacts. There is a slightly lower recovery associated with the lower grade. And then also at Phase 3, it's quite modest, but a smaller production resulting from slightly lower grade and recoveries. And that's really as we shift towards more development in the Kamoa and Kansoko mines. So I'll finish the next slide, please. So it's not come up to me yet. So what's next for Kakula, really, we want to summarize by giving as clear a picture as possible in terms of what is coming next and what to expect from us in terms of disclosure. So where we are today, I think Mark took you through all of the detail here, but we are conservatively and safely ramping up the mining activities in the western side of Kakula. We are targeting currently a nameplate throughput from underground of 3.6 million tonnes per annum that will be over the course of the next 2 quarters. As I mentioned, we are optimizing our concentrator capacity in the meantime to maximize production. We're utilizing the great benefit that we have with the stockpiles and also looking at how we can use the different mining areas that we have at Kamoa and Kansoko. As Mark mentioned, there are high-grade reserves that we can start to open up now with new declines and with the additional crews from Kakula. I'm sure we will have lots of questions around cash cost and capital cost guidance. We are fully prepared to answer them, but not just yet. We will save that for the Q2 financials, which are due on the 31st of July. And then moving into the fourth quarter, we will commence the ramp-up of the smelter. So by the end of the fourth quarter, we will be a significant producer of copper anodes, which will improve cash cost and margin position. And around that time, we intend to complete the dewatering of the eastern side of Kakula, which is really the precursor to completing the full geotechnical assessment and then determining the correct and revised mining strategy for that eastern side of Kakula. And then all of this will be basically updated in the various mine plans, short, medium and long term, and that will be formulated into an updated integrated development plan, which will be published we're targeting here for the end of Q1 of next year. And then finally, as Mark mentioned, we are working now basically on accelerating development of new infrastructure around the existing -- the old mine in the eastern area to access the new mining area, which is east of the existing workings. We are hoping to be in there by, say, Q2 or mid next year and starting to ramp up production from underground from that side of the mine. So with that, I will just hand over to Marna to conclude the presentation.

Thank you, Alex. And I think it's always difficult if you get stuck in the present and you sort of need to force yourself to zoom out and see where we've come from. Robert mentioned the past 30 years of developing this mine. And I just also want to remind the audience about what Kamoa-Kakula really is, and it remains a generational copper mine. We've invested over $6 billion of capital to date, and that was largely funded by our cash flows. We're, by far, the lowest capital cost intensity copper mine in the industry. We've got very high margins. We're a green copper producer. Within 4 years, we started contributing 8% to the GDP of the DRC. We employ about 90% Congolese staff and we train everybody on site. We're the world's fourth largest and by far the highest grade major copper resource. And we're about to commission Africa's largest and greenest copper smelter. So as much as we've hit the snack and we're learning from it, it's been, I think, a learning curve for all of us. I think the one thing about this company is it's a resilient company. We remain very positive about the future, and we can only grow stronger from here. So with that, that concludes our presentation, and I will now hand over to Matt for Q&A.

Thanks very much, Marna. And as I mentioned at the onset, we will finish today's event with a question-and-answer session. Covering analysts may submit questions to the operator via the phone line. If you have any questions that are not addressed during the call, please do reach out to our IR team directly, and we can answer those for you. So with that, we'll just hand it over to the operator, who will handle the phone line, and then we will wrap up the call. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Fahad Tariq from Jefferies.

I know you can't comment on the CapEx guidance just yet, but maybe can you just remind us what the CapEx was for the existing eastern area that's already been developed?

See, it's a little bit of a tricky one to sort of isolate the CapEx just for that period.

Phase 1 was the mine and the first concentrator, that was $1.3 billion. So it was under $1 billion for everything, basically initial capital and then we've added a little bit, but not much. So under $1 billion for the whole of Kakula.

Yes, exactly, Mark. And that obviously includes the plant and all the infrastructure, et cetera.

Okay. And then maybe as a follow-up, as you think about the new mining area in the eastern section. Sorry, the line was cutting out earlier, so maybe I missed this, but can you just tell us what the sequencing may look like? Would the priority be the kind of central area that has the higher grades first? Or you kind of work your way from the outer lower grades into the central area?

If I can take that one as well. So basically, it was on the plan there. We will develop from the north and the south and go around -- basically around the whole of, let's call it, the eastern section. So you're going to attack it from both sides, you're going to hold and then you're just going to carry on. So you'll have everything open. So the top, the bottom and the middle will be open on the eastern section. It's independent of the work that you're doing to dewater the mine and then obviously have access to, let's call it, the old mine. So the old mine will be dewatered by December in the quarter 4, and you'll have access to that full old mine. But what we're thinking is to derisk the whole -- basically that whole footprint is to leave that barrier pillar around the old mine and then have that infrastructure created as, let's call it, the new mine, which will be fully hold. So all the whole footprint will be open by mid next year.

Mark, but maybe just on grade. So the development will be in the lower grade areas on the side of the mine. So going back to my previous comment, if you look at this picture, you can see on the outside, it's sort of the green and the yellows. So you're going to do some of that development work in the green and the yellow, so slightly lower grade. And then when you start going deeper into the mine, you get into the higher-grade areas. So on the western side, we should be able to go into higher-grade areas sooner. On the eastern side, you will develop through the lower-grade areas into the higher-grade areas. But that wouldn't take much longer than the development of getting sort of behind that stabilization pillar.

The next question is from Orest Wowkodaw from Scotiabank.

A couple of questions, please. First of all, I'm just wondering, in terms of the preliminary geotech findings about the high extraction rate from Kakula east, is that directly related to the recent change in mining method, I guess, that happened about a year ago to long-haul stoping?

Can I take -- yes, so the whole -- the mine has always been designed on a drift and fill, whether it's long-haul stoping or drifting and filling. So the fill backfilling. So it's a primary and secondary extraction. And what it looks like is the actual fill is not replacing the pillar. So instead of the stress has been distributing evenly onto the fill, it's moving on to your regional pillars. That's what we're seeing. It's got to be confirmed with a full geotech basically agreement because we've got our QPs here as well also looking at potential other contributing factors. But it looks to me like that's what it is.

And we can maybe just add that the different mining methods may just be a difference in taking it out, but the extraction ratios were assumptions were the same between the 2. So it's unlikely that, that would have an impact, but it's obviously too soon to say.

Okay. And from a big picture perspective, is it likely that you probably need to develop more stopes, but mine them -- but perhaps have them smaller or mine them more slowly moving forward in terms of to make the tonnage up?

We think the sequencing will change. So if you can imagine yourself, you're going to have bigger pillars. So you'll move forward to the mining boundaries with bigger pillars. Your amount of crews, you should be able to fit in most of them. It might mean that you cut a few crews longer term, but we need to schedule that. And when you get to the boundary, you'll have secondary extraction. It's probably going to be the prudent way to take it out. And just I'm saying there's still a lot of work to do before we actually finalize this final design and sequencing, but that's what it looks like.

Okay. And then just finally, does any of this impact your thinking around a future Phase 4 expansion? I'm just wondering if perhaps it makes more sense just to operate now on a longer-term basis with the 3 phases you have.

That will be everything. So it will go through to everything we do. The sequencing in Phase 4 will certainly be affected. But this thinking will be carried forward through everything, all the mines and all the thinking.

Yes. I'd just add to that, Orest. It's Alex here. It's too soon to comment specifically around Phase 4 and timing of Phase 4. Obviously, that will all be fleshed out when we come out with a new plan around Q1 of next year. The key focus right now is obviously to try and get the mining rate as high as we can to get those mills full, but we will provide more detail in the first quarter.

Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I would now like to turn the meeting over to Mr. Keevil.

Thanks very much, operator. And with that, we will conclude the call today. I'd like to thank everyone again very much for attending. As mentioned, I'd just like to reiterate, if you do have any further questions that remain unanswered after this call, please do reach out to our IR team, and we'd be happy to have a chat with you on them. But with that, we'll end the call, operator. Thank you very much.

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes the conference call for today. We thank you for participating, and we ask that you please disconnect your lines.