Indraprastha Gas Limited (IGL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Indraprastha Gas Limited Q4 FY '25 Earnings Conference Call, hosted by PhillipCapital India Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Nitin Tiwari from PhillipCapital (India) Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thanks. On behalf of PhillipCapital (India) Limited, I welcome everyone to Indraprastha Gas Limited's Fourth Quarter FY '25 Earnings Call. Today from the management team of IGL, we have the pleasure of having with us the Managing Director, Mr. K. K. Chatiwal; our Director - Commercial, Mr. Mohit Bhatia; and CFO, Mr. Sanjay Kumar. I shall now hand over the floor to the management for their opening remarks, which shall be followed by a question-and-answer session. Over to you, sir.

A very good afternoon to all of you. I'm Kamal Kishore Chatiwal, Managing Director, Indraprastha Gas Limited, and I welcome you all, and thank you for taking the time to join us today for IGL's earning call and for your continued trust and partnership with us. IGL has declared the results for quarter 4 and financial year '24-'25 yesterday evening. The company has performed quite well in this year despite this being a challenging year in terms of gas sourcing for the entire CGD industry. We have seen a lot of volatility [Technical Difficulty] the allocation of domestic gas.

Hello, sir. We cannot hear you. Hello?

Hello?

Yes, sir, we can hear you now.

We have seen a lot of volatility in the allocation of domestic gas to CGD sector, especially in the second half of financial year. Considering the future requirement of gas and the reduction in APM, IGL has taken several measures in terms of gas sourcing and has entered into term gas agreements with various gas suppliers for sourcing of RLNG of approximately 1.65 million standard [Technical Difficulty].

Sorry, sir. We are not able to hear you. Hello? Ladies and gentlemen, please stay connected while we get management on the line again.

We are quite sure that the gas mix available with us, our current portfolio is one of the best in the CGD sector. Let me highlight the key highlights of the annual result for FY '24-'25 in comparison to FY '23-'24. In terms of volume, we have registered a total average daily volume of 8.99 mmscmd as against 8.43 mmscmd last year. There has been an overall volume growth of 6% on year-on-year basis. The growth in overall CNG sales is 6%. And if we exclude DTC sales, the growth in CNG is almost 8%. PNG sales growth story is intact and has shown robust double-digit growth of 11%. Domestic sale has taken lead and has increased by 12%. Industrial sales have increased by 10% and commercial sales by 8% on Y-o-Y basis. Another important analysis I would like to share is that if we categorize IGL into 3 parts: Delhi, NCR and other GAs, sales in terms of volume in Delhi GA after excluding DTC has grown by 5%. NCR comprising of Gautam Buddha Nagar, Gurugram GA has shown a 13% and other GAs have grown by 32%. We are quite hopeful that with the gas sourcing arrangement in place and the volume growth seen in new GAs, we can plan to achieve sales volume increase of 10% in the year '25-'26. Coming to the financial highlight of the year, the gross turnover has increased by 6% to INR 16,400 crores. Gas cost has increased by 13% in current year as compared to last year, impacting the profitability in this year. Despite an increase in gas sourcing cost by 13%, leading to some pressure on margins, we maintained a healthy operational profitability with EBITDA of INR 1,978 crores and PAT of INR 1,468 crores. On the diversification front, the company has taken a major step for its diversification project and IGL Board has approved setting up a 500-megawatt solar plant in the state of Rajasthan with RVUNL. Now I will like to invite Shri Mohit Bhatia, Director, Commercial, IGL, to give his opening remarks.

Thank you, all. Thank you once again, and good afternoon, everyone. I am Mohit Bhatia, Director, Commercial at Indraprastha Gas, and I welcome all the investors and analysts to participate in the today's earning call. The results have been uploaded yesterday evening, and I hope you must have gone through the same. As Managing Director also highlighted some of the points relating to annual performance of the company from the results for the financial year '24-'25, let me add the perspective from the quarterly comparison. The PAT was of INR 349 crores and has been achieved as against INR 286 crores in the third quarter of FY '25. There has been a significant growth of 22% on Q-o-Q basis. The sales volume in Q4 stood at 9.18 mmscmd ever highest from 9.11 million mmscmd reported in Q4 '24. The gross turnover has increased from INR 4,130 crores in Q3 '25 to INR 4,323 crores in Q4 '25, showing a growth of 5%. The EBITDA of the current year quarter was INR 497 crores as against INR 364 crores in Q3 '25, showing a robust growth of 37%. The EBITDA per SCM has increased to INR 6.03 in the current quarter from INR 4.34 reported in the third quarter. Further taking from the quantitative aspect for the financial year, the company has seen a surge in conversion of CNG vehicles with an average of 18,000-plus vehicles were added every month during the financial year '24-'25 as against 15,500, showing a healthy growth rate of 11%. During the current financial year, IGL has provided domestic connections of 3.7 lakh consumers. 72 new CNG stations were commissioned, 293 kilometer of steel line pipeline was commissioned and 3,834 kilometer of MDP pipeline was laid. In all, a CapEx of around INR 1,100-plus crore was spent last year. At the end, I am happy to inform that the company has announced a final dividend of INR 1.5 per share on the increased share capital base as the company has issued bonus share during the year in the ratio of 1:1. This is in addition to the interim dividend of INR 5.5 declared earlier. With this, I welcome you all once again and open the session for question-and-answers.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of E.A. Sundaram from BugleRock Capital.

Sir, instead of 2 questions, I have just one suggestion. So this is given by me as a long-term investor in IGL and is done keeping in mind the interest of the company. So please allow me a couple of minutes to make these points. Periodically, we have seen that IGL has been affected by a negative perception that arises in the minds of some people in the investment community. Sometimes it is about reduced allocation of APM gas. Sometimes it is about the proposed EV policy and its assumed side effects. In each case, sir, the response of IGL has been one of silence. I think, sir, it is the duty of the company's management to set the record straight when such misperceptions are doing the rounds. I am not suggesting that IGL responds every day, but when there is a serious misperception about the company, I think the company should set the record straight. The solution is to put out the facts. In October 2024, during a conference call, I did suggest that the company put out a presentation on its website, giving details about how the previous sharp rises in APM costs have been handled by the company and how in the long-term, the company's profitability was not affected by sharp rises in gas costs. I am disappointed that IGL has chosen to remain silent. It is high time that IGL appointed a full-time and reputed public relations agency through whom the correct information, more than what is statutorily required is periodically transmitted to the investment community, so that such misperceptions are erased to the extent possible. I am not seeking any future guidance from the company, sir. But I'm only suggesting that IGL does its best in erasing the opinion that the company is more vulnerable than what it actually is. I really do think that it is part of the management's duty to be proactive about dispelling wrong opinions and misperceptions about the company without being excessively optimistic.

Yes, we have noted, that's a very good suggestion, and we'll try to address that by putting out more information on our website.

Yes, it is essential, sir, because if the understanding about the company is wrong, then that leads to wrong decisions in the investment community. I think it's important that IGL's strengths are well understood by everybody.

Yes, that is very clear, but our focus has been on mitigating the issues because many times, it is the government that we are dealing with. So we don't want to spell out something which -- in the public domain, which...

Sir, I know it is sensitive. I don't want you to talk about the future. But how you handled it in the past can certainly be discussed. For example, this APM gas allocation. We have seen sharp rises in gas costs in the past also, but that has not been affecting the company in the long-term. Maybe for 1 or 2 quarters, it will affect. It will certainly help if these things are put out in public domain by the company itself with or without the help of a PR agency. It is -- I think it will help dispel the wrong notions about the company. I think that is also a very important aspect.

Yes, very true. Very true, and we will take note of that and address this issue.

The next question is from the line of Probal Sen from ICICI Securities.

Just a couple of questions, just a couple of clarifications rather. If we can -- you spoke about the additional term gas arrangements to the extent of 1.65 mmscmd. Can we just get a breakup today of 8.99 mmscmd that we did in Q4? Can we just break it down into how much exactly was APM? How much was new well pricing gas? How much is long-term LNG and how much are other sources? I mean if you can just break down source-wise, it will be really helpful, sir. That was my first question.

Yes, 3.51 is APM allocation as of now, 1.3...

How much sir?

3.51 and 1.38 is new well gas. So total, you can say that 58% or so in the CNG and transport and domestic segment is through this segment and 42% is through RLNG. And if you look at the overall company-wise, then you can say that around 50-50 is there. 51% is through APM new well gas and 49% is through other sources.

And just to clarify, as you mentioned, almost the entirety of RLNG is through term contracts. There is no spot LNG in this basket, is it?

We are now completely -- our future -- some amount of future requirement also. We have term contracts in place, and we are managing through take-or-pay. There is some headway there. So, we manage through that.

Sir, the second question was again on the sales volumes. As you mentioned that we need to now look at the business, frankly, in 3 buckets. One is Delhi, one is the rest of NCR and then the third is the other or newer areas. Now you helpfully have been mentioning the growth rates of the respective areas. But is it possible to get even a rough split of the volumes today from, let's say, Delhi, rest of NCR and other areas?

Yes, Delhi is at 5.38, NCR is 2.28 and other GAs is 0.819 -- 0.82 you can say. So that's around 8.5% and 0.5% is NG sales.

Sir, one last question, if I may. Just to understand, in terms of diversification, just a strategic thought process behind going the solar way as opposed to let maybe expanding the CBG or LNG retail or any of the other direct related segments. Just the thought process behind it and what kind of returns are we looking at from and what kind of investments are we looking at in this diversification?

No, in our diversification initiative, all 3 are there. CBG is there, LNG is there and solar is there. Now solar has come first. It is not that it is any -- I mean, we have a priority of one over the other. It's just that the state government since state government is involved, so their approval was given to us. Now the cabinet approval is pending, although the entity approval has been given. So that's how it has come up. And solar serves us 2 purpose. One is that, it gives us a equity return in excess of 14%, 15%. Second is that if we can -- we have a right for 50% as captive consumption. So if we can bring that to our operations, bring that captive solar produced to our operations, so that brings down our cost of operations, as well as greening of our operations. So those are the 3 major factors. We are also looking at biogas as an opportunity and LNG retail also as an opportunity and doing -- I mean, allocating CapEx for those also.

Just to add, we are -- we have already tied up with CONCOR and one LNG station is expected to come up by maybe by June end or July at Noida. And there are 2 more LNG stations also coming up, one in Dadri and one in Rewari. So this is the development on the LNG thing. And CBG also, we are looking forward for some joint ventures and all. So it is in the process and biogas thing will also get metallized fast.

The next question is from the line of Nirmal Gore from Aditya Birla Sun Life AMC.

Sir, you mentioned about guidance for FY '26 volume growth at 10%. It would be really helpful if you could break it up within segments.

7% to 8% would be in the CNG segment and 13% to 14% would be in the PNG segment. So that is the kind of rough breakup that we can give. And LNG would be some small portion of LNG also.

The next question is from the line of Yogesh Patil from Dolat Capital.

Sir, need some clarification on the APM allocation. The current 16th April APM cuts are for the full year, and we will not see any further cuts in the coming quarters or every quarter or every 6 months, APM allocation will change? Any clarity on this, sir?

What we understand is that now we will be knowing about any change 2 quarters in advance. So you can assume that for the next 2 quarters, this is going to remain like this. And any change in the next quarter, if we get any communication, so that will be effective after 2 quarters. So that is our understanding of the issue. And whatever shortfall is there, that is being made up with new well gas. So these are the 2 clarifications or our understanding of the issue.

And sir, as you mentioned that the CNG vehicle additions was 18,000 per month in FY '25 and which has improved from the level of 15,000 per month in FY '24. But sir, if you look into the CNG volume growth, it is still only 6% on a Y-o-Y basis. What would be the major issue, sir, in the CNG volume growth despite a healthy or better CNG vehicle additions?

Actually, there is some negative -- some of the DTC buses are going off. So that is one of the major contributor in the sense that 70,000 to 80,000 kg. So that has been a reduction on that front. So from 1.8, 1.9 levels, they are now at 1.1. So you can say that, that is the reduction and whatever increase we could do, still, we have managed to increase our CNG by 6% to 7%.

And lastly, want your broader thought on the Delhi EV policy 2.0. We wanted to understand how many CNG 3 wheels are flying on the Delhi road and its broader impact on our CNG volume?

Say total, if you look at 2-wheeler and 3-wheeler space on the VAHAN data, we have around 97 lakhs, 98 lakhs 2-wheelers. Out of that CNG is hardly 3,000-odd, 3,300. And 3-wheelers, the license number is around 1 lakh, so that's on road because they are controlled, so the number is almost fixed at 1 lakh. You can say that almost 2% to 3% is 3-wheelers and 95% to 96% is 2-wheelers.

The next question is from the line of Varatharajan Sivasankaran from Antique Limited.

Just write-back in terms of the provision, if you can explain to us, what is the provision made and why like we are writing back now? And is there no requirement in terms of provisionally like any kind of negotiation with the OMCs to increase this and it won't require any further provisions in the future?

So this provision was made for the period of April '19 to November '21. There was a dispute, the trade margin was expected to be revised. The demand from OMC was that the trade margin is revised from 2019 itself. What we had done was we had already started paying from December '21 and the previous -- this period was under dispute. So during the year, that dispute is settled. And whatever provision we had made in our books, so that has been reversed. That is around INR 114 crores. And going forward, I think there is no need of any further provision. Revised rates are already being paid.

Can you provide us some idea as to what are we paying for the other new GA because I think the metro rates are different and the small term rates are different. If you can give us some idea on that?

The rate ranges from INR 3.5 to INR 4.5. In Delhi, it is more than INR 5.5, around INR 6. So GA-wise, it varies. It depends upon which market we are catering to, what is the cost of serving the customer there, what are the land rental. So keeping those in mind, the trade margins have been well finalized.

Is there any kind of an escalation clause on that, sir?

Which clause?

5% escalation is there on the trade margin.

Every year? Is it every year, sir?

Hello?

Yes, is it a 5% escalation every year? Yes, is it a 5% escalation every year?

The first escalation was supposed to happen from 1st April '25 or '26. And subsequently, it will be further reviewed and the call will be taken.

Reviewed after 3 years.

Okay. It's 5% every 3 years is it?

Every 3 year is not finalized yet. One revision of 5% was what was agreed.

The next question is [Technical Difficulty].

That GAs. So, Delhi, that was for FY '25, right? Delhi was 5%, NCR was 13% and other GAs were 32%.

Yes, that is for FY '25. And Delhi is excluding the DTC, if you exclude that, that is 5%. Otherwise, it is around 2%.

Okay. And you have mentioned this 1.1 mmscmd DTC bus volume. Is it 1.1 mmscmd that you have mentioned in one of the question answer?

No, 1.1 lakh -- 110,000.

What is that?

110,000.

That is the current number, the March number is 110,000 kg per day. That's the DTC sale, which is there at present.

And how much will be auto rickshaws in terms of volumes?

See, auto rickshaws are almost, you can say, 7% to 8% of the volume, you can say. That includes all auto rickshaws...

All auto rickshaws.

All auto rickshaws. So half of that would be in Delhi.

So, the total volumes or just CNG volumes?

CNG, CNG volumes.

CNG volumes.

It's fine. And second part is basically, I saw some interview on the TV where you have mentioned the near-term EBITDA guidance is -- EBITDA margin guidance is 6% to 7%. But if we look into your FY Q4 number adjusted for the provision, of course, and given the fact that you've taken a price hike on 1st of April, but again, there has been further cut in APM allocation. So are we confident that Q1 FY '26 also, we would be at INR 6 plus EBITDA per SCM?

Yes. Our 1 or 2 quarter would be impacted in the sense that our long-term range is 7% to 8%. So we are trying to get to first 6% to 7% range and then 7% to 8%. So we are confident that first quarter will be in this range.

First quarter should be in 6% to 7% range. And last just small question. Q4 FY '25, I mean, the break-up you gave between new well gas and APM is how much currently?

New well is around 1.3 and 1.38 and the normal domestic APM is around 3.3.

3.3 and this includes DPNG also, right, for which 100% allocation?

Hello, Sabri?

Yes, domestic PNG is also included.

Hello?

Hello? Am I audible? Hello? Hello? Yes, am I audible?

Nitin, can you hear us?

I asked domestic PNG...

I can hear both of you, sir.

So the domestic allocation is 3.3 million and 1.38 million is the new well.

Yes. But this is total priority sector, not just CNG alone. This is total priority sector, right, yes?

So we get 100% is domestic and PNG transport is the other segment.

Yes, this is 100%. This includes domestic as well.

The next question is from the line of S. Ramesh, an Individual Investor.

I'm from Nirmal Bang Equities. So when you talk about the INR 6 to INR 7 per SCM EBITDA margin in first quarter, can you take us through how you will achieve it? Because if you have achieved only INR 4.42 in 4Q, you have possibly taken an increase of INR 1 per kg and that's offset by the increase in gas cost. So is there an element of higher margins on PNG? How do you think you'll achieve this in the first quarter?

So actually, that is not entirely correct that there has been an increase in gas cost, because what has happened is our RLNG costs have come down in this first quarter as well as the rupee appreciation has also helped. In addition to that, whatever cut in APM was there, that has been made up with new well gas. So we have received additional new well gas, 125% of whatever was cut, APM cut, whatever was there. So we have received -- 0.8 was cut, and we have received around 1 million of that. So 25% extra. So if we factor in all this, we feel that the gas cost may not increase much. But INR 1 we have increased, and if required, we may take future increase also. So with that, we anticipate that we'll be in the INR 6 to INR 7 range for 1 or 2 quarters and then target for INR 7 to INR 8.

Secondly, just to add, like we have -- if we see the RLNG mix also, the Brent is also now we can say at a lower level around $67 per barrel and seems to continue in this trend. And the Henry Hub, another index is also going down now, it's around $3.3 per MMBtu. So we are hopeful of maintaining in this range, INR 6 to INR 7.

Okay. So now going to your JV share, particularly MNGL, can you give us some numbers in terms of how MNGL has come in terms of volume for 4Q and FY '25, similarly Central U.P. Gas and the time line for the MNGL IPO, what's happening there?

So in terms of volume, MNGL's volume has grown approximately 19% year-on-year. For CUGL, the volumes are flat if we compare with the previous year. So...

Around 0.3%.

Around 0.3% growth was there. So that is as far as volume is concerned. In terms of profitability, MNGL has grown by around...

7% growth is there.

7% growth is there. And CUGL is more or less flat, a little reduction is there in terms of EBITDA.

Sir, MNGL, you said profit after tax is up 10%.

7%.

7% growth is there for MNGL.

Okay. So can you give us a similar number for 4Q?

Sorry?

Can you give us a similar number for MNGL and CUGL for 4Q?

Q4 MNGL number, we'll give you separately. We have not...

Okay. So any...

[ 7% ] growth is there. For MNGL, the quarterly number has grown by 30%.

Volume growth. Okay. So what is...

The growth is 57%.

Okay. So any progress on the MNGL IPO time line? What exactly is happening there? Can you give us some sense of that?

So I think we have not got any formal communication from MNGL, but what we understand from the filings that some promoter consent has been given to MNGL for IPO. So I think they are in the process of that. Any formal communication we have not received from MNGL.

Okay. So in terms of the new GAs, can you give us some sense in terms of how they are performing on the P&L? And what is the kind of addition to the EBITDA and profits you can expect in the next 1, 2 years?

You see new GAs, we were able to increase the prices, because the gas cost has gone up there also and some volume growth was there. So growth-wise, they are growing at around 28% to 30% combined altogether, some growing at 70%, 80% on low base, some at 20%, 25%. And now except 1 or 2 GAs, all other are EBITDA positive, except for the Kanpur and Ajmer.

And when do you think Kanpur and Ajmer will achieve EBITDA positive?

I think with the current increase that we have done in this quarter, price increase that we have done, plus some volume growth is also there. So we expect that in this quarter, it should be positive.

The next question is from the line of Kunal Ochiramani from Alpha Alternatives.

Sir, I have a question on your sourcing front. You said you made new RLNG contracts. Just wanted to understand the nature of sourcing. Are this more crude-linked or Henry Hub linked? If we can understand this.

You see 65% of our RLNG portfolio is Henry Hub linked, okay? And still the bias is more towards Henry Hub, because in our opinion, there is less volatility as far as Henry Hub contracts are concerned because majority of the portion is constant and some portion is linked to the index. So that's the reason. And plus the absolute numbers also on the lower side as far as Henry Hub is concerned. Unless Henry Hub goes way beyond our target, it should remain competitive with respect to crude. So that's the mix, 65% and 8% is, I think, HPHT and balance 27%, 28% is crude-linked Brent.

The next question is from the line of Lokesh Manik from Vallum Capital Advisors.

Yes. Sir, my first question is on growth guidance that you have given 10% volume growth. Now my assessment from the breakup that you have given on the growth rates from the 3 areas, that is Delhi, NCR and other GAs is coming to addition of about 0.5 MMSMD or 0.6 MMSMD given their historical growth rates. GAs are at 32%, NCR is at 12%, 13%. So it comes up to 0.5 MMSMD, 0.6 MMSMD. You also have DTC going out of the system from -- they've already come down from 1.8 MMSMD to 1 MMSMD and now going down further. So given these 2 developments, where are you seeing additional growth coming in to match 0.9 MMSMD by FY '26?

So if we break up like segment-wise, as we mentioned earlier also, if we exclude DTC part, then also Delhi CNG is growing by around 5% to 6% already. And the trend is also like that with the addition in the vehicles and all. So point number one. Then the NCR part, particularly Noida, Ghaziabad and Greater Noida. So that is growing at around 13% to 14% in CNG. And that will definitely grow like that, and it may further add also. And the good thing is the GAs outside, GAs is growing 30% plus. So we expect phenomenal growth in the -- in this sector also. And then coming to the other segment, that is the domestic PNG. So almost we are adding around 3 lakh plus customers year-on-year, and that is also contributing to the growth factor. And DPNG is growing around 12% to 13%. So this is one thing. And the good thing is industrial commercial segment is also having a double-digit growth. And in fact, in the last quarter, we have -- in the industrial front itself, we have crossed 1 million of the sales in a little bit of period. So that is also expected to grow around 13%, 14%. So in -- if we consolidate all the segments and across the Delhi, NCR and this thing, so 10% should come.

Understood. Understood. So sir, just one clarification. DPNG is now EBITDA positive for us, because what we have understood historically, this is not -- on the EBITDA level, it is not significantly positive versus CNG, but CNG covers up for the DPNG. This is what our understanding.

No, no, no, no. Actually, to begin with, once the infrastructure is not there, then in the initial years, I mean, the profitability is not there. But since ours -- our infrastructure is quite old, plus we have entire Delhi is now practically covered. So the cost of any new connection is low, leading to our -- so that segment is profitable for us. And once that's -- any DPNG, the beauty is that if it becomes positive, it remains positive for your entire life.

Correct. Correct. And...

So for us, I mean because of the numbers, sheer numbers and you get 105% allocation of APM gas. So this is positive for us.

Fair enough. Sir, my second question was on the EV policy. The first one of Delhi has expired on 31st March. They extended the time line for introduction of new one. It has not come out yet. Any update on that one? And second, any update on the new buses in the DTC segment that are getting tendered? Are they still being all EV tendering or they are looking at CNG again? Any update, because you are in that city, you know the development?

You see, I will answer the second question first. So the Delhi Transport Department has decided that their future buses will all be EVs. So whatever residual number will remain 1,000, 2,000. So that will remain. Other than that, 8,000 to 10,000 buses will be electric. So all new tenders will be based on electric only. So that is number one. Second is, as far as the EV policy is concerned, I mean, some news items also came because the draft policy was never uploaded for comments. It is yet to be approved. Some -- from the media reports, we got to know that there is some thought about banning 2-wheeler and 3-wheeler petrol diesel CNG, petrol and CNG basically. So we have given our submission to the Delhi government that gas was brought in Delhi on the directions of Honorable Supreme Court and Senator was asked that CNG to replace the polluting fuels. So this is entirely different category, and it should be categorized as a bridge fuel, a transition fuel and either it should be clubbed with EV or it should be a separate segment and not to be clubbed with the other petrol and diesel fuels. So that has been our submission. Even some of the central government schemes like Sustainable Alternative Towards Affordable Transportation, SATAT scheme or synchronization scheme. So they are positioned to take care of this bio-CNG, biomethane and bio-LNG also. And this infra becomes future-ready [Technical Difficulty].

Ladies and gentlemen, we have lost the line of management.

We are back. We are back. Just hold on a minute please.

So we feel that this infra becomes a future-ready infrastructure for use of bio-CNG, biomethane as well as hydrogen in a blended form for cities, I think we feel that, so it needs to be categorized in a different segment altogether, if not...

So sir, you are saying that for these introduction of new fuels, especially the bio-CNG and the hydrogen that you mentioned, incremental infrastructure will not be required. You can use your existing infrastructure and leverage that to supply these fuels. Am I understanding correct on that?

Exactly, exactly. Your understanding is correct that the same infrastructure up to certain percentage of blend of hydrogen and 100% blend of biomethane, biogas that can be used.

Understood. Understood. Sir, because the EV policy was very harsh when it came out of the draft, I mean, completely banning everything and only -- [ the control point was ] very harsh.

No, I think -- I think let us wait for the final draft. So it may be changed actually.

The next question is from the line of Rucheeta Kadge from iWealth.

Sir, most of my questions have been answered.

The next question is from the line of Akash Mehta from Canara HSBC Life.

So I think you all mentioned that the conversions for the year have been averaging about 18,000 versus 15,000 in the previous year. So if you could just help with the last couple of months of conversion, at least, I mean, March, April, how the conversions have kind of looked like in terms of vehicle, that would be helpful?

Mohit, do you have the numbers?

Yes. I think the numbers, if we see March, March, it was around 17,500, February also 17,200, but January, it was all-time hike, it was around 27,000 and December around 15,000. So this is the trend of last 4, 5 months.

The next question is from the line of Devang Patel from Sameeksha Capital.

Sir, can you help us with the CapEx guidance for next year and the breakup of this between what is the minimum works program CapEx, what is the CapEx for CBG, what is the CapEx for solar, et cetera?

Actually, from -- you have -- see, this year last -- in fact, last financial year, we have spent around INR 1,100-plus crores on the CapEx. And primarily, it was on the core business that is on the domestic PNG front as well as steel and on the CNG stations. But for the coming year, it is around INR 2,000-plus crores is the CapEx plan with around INR 1,300 crores, INR 1,400 crores coming in the core segment, and on the solar around INR 400 crores to INR 500 crores and balance on maybe LNG, CBG and some other business development part.

On the solar CapEx, once it's commissioned, we will see a reduction in our power cost. That would be around INR 500 crores of annual cost that we bear.

I mean, that is one of our plans that if we can bring it to our operating stations, so -- as a captive consumption. So that should bring down our cost of power.

What kind of savings could we expect?

I think right now, for Delhi, it will be difficult in the sense that it is on state grid. So I think INR 5 to INR 6 saving we can expect from that. But if it was a central grid, then almost INR 8.

Okay. Sir, on domestic PNG, our growth was constantly in double digits. It's come down to 5%. Is this the new growth? Is it because of the base has gone up for us or can we expect PNG to continue growing in double digits?

No, no domestic PNG has grown by 10% -- 12% rather, 12%.

Yes. For the full year, yes. For Q4, the growth looks lower Y-o-Y.

I think quarter-on-quarter, it is difficult because billing is done in 2 months. The billing cycle is 2 months. So sometimes the overlap may be there. So if we look at the full year, that will give us the correct picture, but we are seeing good number addition. We are targeting 2.5 lakh to 3 lakh additions every year. And in all our GAs, the number of connections are going up. And it is in direct proportion to the number of connections. 0.4 is per household connection. And as and when we add new houses, that is the quantity that goes up. So we are seeing 10% to 12% growth. There is no reduction in that.

The next question is from the line of Somaiah V from Avendus Spark Institutional Equities Private Limited.

Yes. A few clarifications. So first thing is on the CapEx number, the INR 1,300 crores that you said for the core part of the business. So if you can just break it up into Delhi NCR and for the newer GAs that would be helpful, sir?

See, Delhi, Delhi will be almost, you can say, around 40% or 35% to 40%, then maybe 20% NCR, Noida, Ghaziabad and around maybe 30% -- 25% to 30% or so will be the other GAs.

So this is the CapEx breakup that I'm referring to, sir, the INR 1,300 crores.

Yes. So that was only I was mentioning. So it will be around 45% -- maybe 40% to 45% on Delhi, it will be spent in Delhi and 20% to 25% will be on Ghaziabad or Noida, that is the NCR part, and the balance maybe around 30% to 40% will be on the other GAs.

Understood, sir. So what will be the CNG station additions that we would be doing when you're talking about this CapEx?

So we have taken a target of around 90 to 100. So in this range, we'll be targeting.

And majority would be in the newer GAs.

Yes, it will be proportionate.

Okay. Sir, on this INR 1,300 crores of CapEx run rate, is it something that we continue to see for the next 2, 3 years? Or how do we look at it? Will it kind of come down to this run rate?

No, no, this will continue for next 3, 4 years that we can see, that INR 1,300 crores. And in case we get more GAs, then that number may continue for even longer.

Understood, sir. And also the solar-related CapEx that you said, so that is INR 300 crores, INR 400 crores for this year, right? I mean, so what would be the total CapEx?

I think that is in a joint venture mode. So the equity investment would be there of this range. Rest other would be funded by debt that will be taken by that joint venture.

Apart from the INR 300 crores, INR 400 crores, further equity infusion is required next year, sir, or...

No, no, INR 372 crores is the final CapEx as of now, final equity contribution of IGL in that joint venture, 74% share. So that is the number. And I think in the next 1, 1.5...

Sorry. Yes. Sir, the other question, I hope I'm audible, sir.

I think the commissioning would be in 18 months or so. So in the next 2 years, this will be used, and we don't foresee any further requirement.

Okay, sir. Sir, the other question was on new GAs. You have given volume of around 0.8 MMSCMD. Possible to get a breakup of this between the GA, sir, the newer areas?

Yes, we have. Rewari is approximately 0.35, Muzaffarnagar is around 0.12, then we have Karnal & Kaithal is around 1.5 -- 0.15, and...

Kanpur, 0.5.

Kanpur is 0.5, Ajmeri is another 0.1.

0.8.

0.1. So this is the broad breakup.

Got it, sir. So newer GAs because probably of operating leverage today not being to the fullest, maybe on the profitability side is on the lower when compared to your established ones. So when do we see an inflection point on what heads -- I mean, maybe transportation today is on the cascade mode. So where do we see this kind of heading in the next couple of years?

So I think both the GAs, Kanpur, Kaithal and Ajmer, so they are nearing that EBITDA positive level. So a slight increase in volume and they will cross the line. So it's not that they are at a big gap. So they are already near to the EBITDA positive level.

Sir, one last clarification. You had mentioned...

Mr. Somaiah, may we request that you return to the question queue for follow-up questions as there are several participants waiting for the turn.

Sure. Sure. Sure.

Yes. The next question comes from the line of Nirmal Gore from Aditya Birla Sun Life AMC.

I wanted to know if we have any plans to take price hikes in Delhi GA in the near future? And also, if you could share the reason why we were able to underperform towards our guidance of 9.5? We were able to achieve [ 9.11 MMSCMD ].

Your second question first, 9.5, there was a slight miss. We achieved 9.2. And part of the reason is the increase or the rather reduction in APM volumes in the third quarter. And since the cut was sudden, so we had to source the additional volumes. So there was some deliberate attempt to cap the growth till the time we source the gas. Now that we have sourced the gas, so now we are looking at growth. So there was some deliberate attempt there to reduce the growth. Second is price hike, that is a very dynamic thing, and we keep on evaluating every fortnight, every month based on the allocation, the RLNG prices, the exchange rate and other factors. So we'll take a decision on increase in Delhi and other areas based on these factors. So as of now, I can't say that when we will be increasing since it is a dynamic. But we have a lot of headroom to increase the prices, that much I can say.

The next question is from the line of Kirtan Mehta from Baroda BNP Paribas Mutual Funds.

We have indicated around 18,000 vehicle addition every month in FY '25. Is it possible to break down -- break this down across category of vehicles?

See, 80% is new vehicle addition and 20% is, you can say, the retrofitment market. And segment-wise breakup...

Segment-wise also, if you see, if you see the new one addition, so almost 50% comes from the passenger cars and the balance is a mix of goods carrier and taxis and the 3-wheelers.

Right. And is it also possible to indicate this breakup across Delhi NCR and other GAs?

I think around...

No, we have actually this taken from the Vahan data. So GA-wise, we will share separately.

Sure. And one more question related to in terms of the CNG's competitiveness versus diesel, how does it pan in Delhi, NCR and other GAs looking at the different price levels across this?

So right now, our focus is not petrol diesel because we are competitive with respect to that. With respect to petrol, it is INR 19. With respect to diesel, it is around INR 13. But our main concern is how do we remain competitive with respect to EV. So that is what we are competing against.

The next question is from the line of Sabri Hazarika from Emkay Global.

Sabri, we are not able to hear you.

Sir, we are getting Sabri on the call. Yes.

Am I audible?

Yes. Yes. Please go ahead.

No, how many CNG stations we had at the end of the year?

So we have 954 stations now.

954. And industrial and commercial growth for FY '25 was 11% and 10% Y-o-Y. Is that right?

Yes. Commercial was slightly 7% to 8%.

8% for commercial, 10% for industrial.

And -- okay. okay. And for Q4, how much it would be?

6%?

6% for industrial and 2% for commercial for the quarter year-on-year.

For the quarter 4, right? Okay.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for the day. I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Thanks, Nitin. Thanks for hosting this call. I also thank all the participants for participating in our call. Any questions, if you have further to what we deliberated today, you can probably mail it to us or mail it to Nitin, and we can get back to you. Thank you so much. And thanks, Nitin and PhillipCapital. Thank you.

On behalf of PhillipCapital India Private Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.