Jana Small Finance Bank Limited (JSFB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Jana Small Finance Bank Limited Q4 FY '25 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Nuvama Wealth and Investment Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Sanjana Faujdar from Nuvama Wealth and Investment Limited. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.

Thank you, Rituja. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Q4 FY '25 and FY '25 Earnings Conference Call of Jana Small Finance Bank. We at Nuvama Wealth like to extend our sincere thanks to the management team of Jana Small Finance Bank for providing us the opportunity to host this call today. Joining us on the call are Mr. Ajay Kanwal, Managing Director and CEO, along with our esteemed members of the senior management team. Without further delay, I would now like to hand over the proceedings to the management. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you so much team and good evening to everybody. So let me start off by a very important milestone for the bank, which is that with our audited results now in the public domain, Jana Bank meets the Universal Bank norms set out by the Reserve Bank, which is meeting gross NPA and net NPA below 3% and 1% threshold for 2 consecutive years. With that, we would like to file in our application, we offer the Universal Bank within the next 30 days. Secondly, it's been a very tough year, but I must say a very rewarding year. It has been one of those years where we had obviously stress in microfinance. And when the year began last year, we had 40% microfinance business. But as we finished the year, our MFI book is down to 30%. And yet we have grown a solid 19% growth in assets. So fundamentally, our strategy of developing multiple lines of business has come through that even if MFI does not grow, which in our case, hasn't grown, in fact, it's negative growth of 11%, our overall asset book has grown 19%. The growth of secured assets in our business is 40%. So that's the first most important piece in terms of performance. I would now start referring to some of the slides because I think it's easier to then relate to numbers. So I'll be on Slide 3, which talks of PAT. So here is the very interesting simple headline that we have delivered INR 501 crores of PAT after doing accelerated provision of INR 305 crores. The INR 305 crores, obviously, is to make sure that net NPA remains below 1 and the INR 305 crores obviously has come from increased MFI stress leading to obviously more slippages and then our need to provision. Now if you back out both deferred tax asset year-on-year difference and the accelerated provision, our adjusted PAT should have been INR 779 crores. By saying this, I'm just trying to give you the ability of the franchise to deliver good PAT. And we'll talk about that in more detail as we go through. But I just want to tell you that delivering this PAT in a tough year in our minds has been one of our strongest performances till date. I would now move on to the next slide, which talks of the asset, and I did give you a glimpse of that a bit earlier. So yes, while MFI was stressed and we did spend a lot of time focusing on collections, getting things right, we were never doubtful in our minds that our future was always secured in nature. So we used that time to increase our secured throughput. And you can see that the advances growth is 19%. Of course, banking industry is 11%, but our secured is 40 solid percent. And this is not the first year. You will see later in the slide that the growth between the year 2022 to 2025, the CAGR has been 40% unsecured. It is just that even though the base keeps growing, we still continue to deliver 40%. The unsecured degrowth has been 11%. The only silver lining here is in quarter 4, unsecured has eked out a small gain of 0.2%. So fair to say our unsecured growth rate will remain stable or slightly positive as we go into this year. And the big challenge around the book not growing is behind us. I must also add that in the MFI book, 28% is now under the guarantee program. As we all know that this guarantee program takes in new disbursements. So we'll complete the balance 70-odd percent through this year. So by September, we'll be mostly 90% odd under the guarantee program. And you will see later details between what goes under CGMFU and what goes under CGTMSE. We are doing a mix of both. I must also tell you that now the way we operate is we kind of start investing in products so that it is good for our customers. They're getting multiproducts from us. But at some point, we think the products by themselves have become profitable as they matured into a good business. I'm so glad to tell you that, and you will see the numbers later. Gold and 2-wheelers have become bad business. Business we've been investing for some time. But now we can see their growth rates, you have seen their size. We do think that in our minds, they are no more the babies. They have become good, strong teenagers and they'll run very fast. Having reached those 2 with gold and 2-wheelers, we have now started focusing to put our measured investment money into used car growth and supply chain financing. So that a year or 2 years from now, I will be in front of all of you by saying that our used car business and supply chain businesses have become reasonably strong, healthy growth businesses. So overall, I will share with you number-by-number of the secured asset growth, but we are very proud of the advances of 19% that we have made in spite of unsecured growth of minus 11%. I draw your attention to Slide #5 on deposits. 29% has been the deposit growth this year against the industry growth of 11%. Our deposits now stand at INR 29,120 crores, and you will see our CD ratio is now down to 93.3%. If you add in the refinance, it is only 82.9%. So we are very, very liquid. And as you know, we had the strongest LCR. It continues to remain the strongest. But like I had told all our investors and analysts that we will keep bringing down the LCR as liquidity improves. Our LCR has dropped from last year 391% to 253%, and we'll continue dropping it further. CASA, it grew at 18%. But I would like you to see a page or 2 later where our 18% growth includes the price of dropping SA by 9 bps because as we all know, many folks can grow CASA, but there is a cost to it. I think very few people can grow CASA with improving the price on it. And that you will see the actual physical numbers as we go along. We've also added Andhra Pradesh as our 25th state, and we are very delighted that we are able to now do business in that state because I do -- we do feel there is going to be a very good and strong economic development in Andhra Pradesh. So now before I move on, asset at 19%, secured assets 40%, unsecured minus 11%, CASA at 18%, deposits at 29%, CD ratio at 93.3%. There is nothing here which tells me that we should not be feeling very bullish and very strong about what is going to come in the following year. The one question we should be very clear about, what to expect on any more credit cost. So I would like to then quickly and importantly go to this credit cost page. If you see the regulatory provision, it is down from last year. The incremental accelerated provision is INR 305 crores versus INR 73 crores last year. Yes, INR 305 crores will stand us in very good stead this year. A lot of it will become recoveries. Having said that, our net credit cost, if you really back out accelerated provision is about INR 325 crores, which we think is a very healthy number. But having said that, the reality is, yes, we would like to keep ourselves very alert and very focused. If you see the additions of gross NPA in the next table, you have seen a slight addition from Karnataka in the quarter 4. Our Karnataka book is only INR 560 crores which exists on the bank's books. So I want to bring back to a very important point, which you've always spoken of in the past that Jana has always taken a position where it doesn't want to have any concentration of any asset in a particular geography. Karnataka happens to be the head office of our bank. Karnataka should have been a large book, but by design, we have not kept a large book. To anticipate the next question saying how book is your -- how big is your MFI book in Tamil Nadu? It's INR 1,000 crores. It is not a significant number. It's not something that can shake our numbers too much. Not that we expect anything to go wrong in Tamil Nadu, but we are just being more careful. So really, I want to come back to GNPA saying, yes, the peak is behind us. We will remain very watchful. I think the real celebration to our mind will begin from maybe Q2 going into Q3. So we continue working hard. Our PCRs are strong. We have accelerated our provision to INR 305 crores, and we are in very good credit shape, as I would put it, because when the book has dropped of MFI from INR 10,000 crores to now INR 8,900-odd crores, it has taken most of the poison away. So that goes for credit cost, very clearly worst behind. Things are improving. Karnataka, small problem. We don't have a big book already baked into our Q4 numbers, and we move into this financial year with a lot of strength on the way we manage. Our collections are credit and of course, with a large amount of provision available with us. I want to talk about 2 things which are very dear to us. We always were proud of our cost income, which last year, we finished at 57.4%. I've mentioned to all of us that our bias was to take 57% down in the 3-year period to a 54% number. We, unfortunately, this year have gone the wrong way. We have become 61.3%. The single biggest reason is drop in revenue from unsecured. And that has really caused the income to compress from an unsecured perspective. And so we really can't address costs so quickly in the short term. But let me assure you, we'll come back to the first digit being 5 this financial year because we know that cost is a certainty and managing cost remains most crucial to us, largely led by digital and productivity. I mentioned CASA earlier, saying CASA has grown, but not by increasing money. And you can see our CASA is down -- our CASA cost is down to 4.36% while we have grown to INR 5,235 crores, which is a healthy growth rate of 18% in CASA. So I thought before I go into more deeper numbers, I will give out the highlights and probably answer some of the important questions and give you the messages from the bank side. Now I would like to move on to Slide #8. Now here is an important one. Our capital adequacy has moved up to 20.7%. It was 20.3% last year, and we have not raised capital. It only tells you that we don't need to raise any more capital. The reason the capital has improved from 20.3% to 20.7%. And as you all know, it's largely Tier 1, we have hardly any Tier 2 capital is for 3 reasons. First, profit of INR 501 crores PAT; second, 28% has gone to CGTMSE, CGMFU. And third, we have INR 1,000 crores roughly about more than book. All these 3 things will be real this year also. So what you should expect is our capital adequacy will further strengthen without raising a single rupee of either Tier 1 or Tier 2 as we get into this year. And we continue to drive numbers. Now again, if you see the highlights of this year. Give me a second. Okay. So I'm sorry, other highlights on this page that I could have picked up was gross NPA at 2.5%, which has improved from -- and I'm still on Page 8 folks. Sorry for the small digression. It's improved to 2.5% from 2.7% and everything else, which you look at, the return ratios or you look at ROEs, they have improved in quarter 4. On a full year basis, which is on Slide #9. I think this is a very important slide for us because it pretty much puts in a INR 30,000 crores of assets and liabilities, which becomes a significant number from our perspective, and we're very proud of the 70% secured advances. I will move on to Slide #11, and I really want you all to spend time on Slide #11. I really wish I can show you a similar slide every year. But let me take some time in being a little bit less modest by reading some of the advanced growth, which I've highlighted in pink. Affordable housing this year has grown by 37.8%. Our Micro LAP has grown 21.6%. Our MSME loans have grown by 29.1%. our NBFC, which has been one of our best books has grown by 50%, though quarter 4. We have slowed down because every other business really grew very hard in quarter 4. Two-wheeler 105%. Gold loans are 237.6%, kindly ignore the gross NPA of 2.7% on gold loan because that is technical in nature. And loans against FD, it really is not something that we think will grow further, but as you know, it's very low profitability oriented. Overall growth in secured assets 40%. And where we sit, we would like to continue the same growth rate, and there is no reason why we should not continue the same growth rate of secured asset growth. On unsecured, too much negativity on MFI, I don't think so is warranted. We know the businesses has it challenges. One has to grow the business in a more measured way. And here, I must say that for us growing the unsecured book by 0.2% in quarter 4, I see it as a positive, because the way the unsecured business works is if my collectors are unsure of collections, they will not give the next loan. It doesn't matter how much hard we try to push. Ultimately, the ground team, which is a few thousand people, they should feel confident that things are back on track. So when I see a growth rate on my books in unsecured advances, I see a confident frontline, who is very comfortable in saying that listen, we have been through the worst, I think, we can collect. And I don't have to tell you that we are far more conservative than any MFIN guardrail. For no other reason that we do feel that every player has a different approach. And unless we are not clear of how the industry emerges, we would like to remain very, very conservative. And I would give you the conservatism number. If any of my existing customers have more than INR 50,000 with any other institution, I will not give him a next loan. We are so hard-nosed. We are not moving at INR 2 lakh being the outer limit. We're operating at INR 50,000 as our limit and I will not give the next loan if he's got more than INR 50,000 exposure. So here is the very important piece where secured is strong, healthy and will continue to show very good growth. I don't have to read the GNPA numbers for you. You folks must have already glanced it. They're very healthy and they show a lot of promise. I want to move on to Slide #13 then, and this is where I said 28% guarantee program, 0.2% is the growth in the fourth quarter and it has been very positive. Our BC book is down to 5%. But I must tell you that we see a lot of progress made by the BCs. All the BCs, the 3 of them that had challenge in the book, they're standing strong. They're standing steadfast. They are fighting back. They're collecting. And I somehow have a very strong feeling the BC book will show good profitability this year. Next, I would like to move to Page #15. This is our favorite page because this is how the bank is. We are an anchor bank. We do not like product selling. We would like to give multiple products to customers. So Bring Home Your Bank (sic) [ Bring Your Bank Home ] is very crucial to us. And for the first time, we are showing you last year versus this year. If you go to any of our past slides, it is when we began Home 360 versus now. I think we have moved on from that phase because I think all of the folks who have been following Jana would know that it rather now we start tracking ourselves year-on-year and here is the best part. This is where customers are showing strong buying to the whole idea of having a one single bank which meets all their needs. Our average relationship has moved in a single year from 3.6% to 3.8%. I have given a small line below, which is if you assume property and life insurance, it actually becomes 6.1%, but we take these 2 out because they're nearly required for every single housing or Micro LAP loan. So we don't add them. And there are some very beautiful spots. I must point out that we are delighted with our gold loan penetration at 2.2%, which has moved up from 1.6% in -- so imagine, first, housing loan Micro LAP customers are growing. In that growth business, which is roughly about 30-odd percent growth, we're also seeing a growth in penetration. So it is like a double growth because your penetration improving on an enlarged growing base from 1.6% to 2.2%, our business loan grows to 18.5%. Two-wheeler is honestly work to do. And the best part is CASA balance is now at INR 28,000 from INR 18,000. So again, what is a competitive mote, what is our differentiation? How do we become the anchor bank for rising India? This is the page to read. Where will future operating leverage come from? This is a page to read. Where will we get better credit quality because customers have multiple bank arrangement with us? This is the page to read. So this is one of the most important pages in our investment deck because this is fundamentally how the bank has been built. I want to move to Page 16 now, and that's where we'll be very happy to see CD ratio at 93.3% and 82.9% including refinance, a very strong growth. Yes, we did have a growth in our cost of deposit. But I must tell you that from a 7.7% to 8%, but here we are sitting here in April, and we've already had one cut in the deposit rates, we've had one cut in our savings rate. And I do feel that our LCR, it is still strong, we have room to cut that. So I would argue that you should expect the 8% back to a lower number during this year. We continue being very focused and very diversified geographically in deposits also. So nothing changes there. So all in all, there is a lot of work for us to do to improve CASA. But this year's CASA of 18% growth while we have reduced the cost of SA is showing that the new segment offers we did last year, whether it's exclusive, it is premium, it is legend, are all showing immense traction. So we are very happy as we go into this year. And now we have got a few more stronger offerings, which we can see has got strong customer reception to grow this year. I'll move to slide which is digital. And you know a digital page, if you see every number, I struggle how to put up a number as a headline because if you're doing 98% account opening with digital, then there is 9,900 cannot be so important, right? So one thing I must tell you that we are fully focused on digital. I would like to share with you progress of our AI projects, which I will do in the next quarter. All I can tell you is that 3 very specific projects related to productivity, customer service and being Copilot to our front end we've already started work on. I'm not building any of that into my next year numbers. But all I can tell you is when I do talk of digital next year, I would be or rather this financial year, I would certainly be talking a bit about our solid progress on AI. I would then like all of you to move to Page #20 with me. This is our PCR page. First important point out of our net NPA of INR 250 crores, the biggest chunk of net NPA left is secured, with LTV of 43.3%. So good news is we are in a very strong position when it comes to credit costs going into next year. And our PCR, including tech write-off and these are tech write-off in the same year, it is not cumulative tech write-off, that stands at 80%. So yes, I mean -- and as you can see on the right-hand side, it's never been a big book, but our restructured book has always been low. And restructured book, unsecured is down to INR 3 crore which is negligible. All the secured ones have property backing. So nothing here which should bother any of us. I'll then move to Page #23, which talks of numbers. And again, very important is to notice quarter 4. 105 PAT has become 120, operating margin up from 279 to 293, so quarter 4 is a positive direction, and that should give us, and certainly you, a sense of direction the bank will take. I will then move on to the balance sheet slide, which is a Slide #24. Important is our liquidity as of 31st March has been the highest in the past. It is at INR 2,816 crores. And importantly, our refinance, which we have availed this year has increased our tenure of refinance to 5.6 years, roughly about 4.7 years last year. So very important to understand why do we take refinance? Because this is long tenure borrowing. These are essentially for NABARD, NHB and SIDBI and we are thankful to all the refinance institutions for really giving us this long-term money. And I wanted to put 5.6 years because it gives you a true sense of what is it doing to our ALM. It's really helping us tremendously. And I mentioned in the past, cost is not the challenge. So we remain liquid. We are very well covered on credit. We have a strong secured asset growth. In a tough year, we have grown 29% on deposits. So I would like to finish with Slide #25, which is guidance for this year, where we would continue to grow AUM by 20%, deposits certainly in the 20%, PAT at 30%, ROA between the 1.6% to 2% and ROE between 15% to 18%. I am very conscious that you will have more questions than I would have answered. So I will stop here. And I will now open the house for questions which me and my team here will take. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang Securities.

Quite a resilient performance given the industry challenging scenario. My first question on our performance on the net interest margin side during the year. So we all know there is some -- there's quality pressure, higher slippages, so there will be some interest reversal. And another factor which is playing out is the increase in cost of funds because the deposit rates -- cost has also increased during the period. Now going into the F '26, when both the factors turning positive from a macro standpoint, how do you see our margin performance, plus we will see some growth in our unsecured book, which also help us to improve our margin. So where do you see our margins to do compared to F '25?

So Manish, first, thank you so much, and yes, you're 100% correct. I must tell you this year when we had modeled our 3-year program, like what will we look 3 years from now when we become 80% secured, our NIM when we had turned 80% secured was -- should have been 7.7%. We are finishing around 7.6%. So we are really off our own projections of NIM because we should have been 7.7% when we were 80% secured as per us. But let me give a few things, and you have mentioned a few of them already, which is interest expense is the issue, unsecured has not -- actually, it's degrowth and that impact is quite heavy, as you know. But yes, both of them should be positive, which is less gross NPA, net NPA, unsecured will grow. That is certainly another positive. The third piece, but I think the most important piece I must tell you, I did a calculation and a study of what is my NIMs for my secured products, March '24 to March '25 in spite of cost of fund increase. And the good news is my NIMs of secured are identical between March '24 and March '25 in spite of cost of deposit going up. So my confidence on saying, yes, NIMs will get better this year is not only got interest in [ suspense ], growth in unsecured, drop in cost of deposit, but my biggest strength today is my secured business is 70% of my book, and that is holding very well. So yes, Manish, you should expect NIMs to improve as we go into this financial year. And I've mentioned all the right reasons for that.

Yes. Second question from your remarks, you said that currently, the 28% book is at the guarantee program. And by September, 90% of our MFI book will be under guarantee program. So let's see one scenario -- hypothetical scenario when the -- this kind of credit event happens, where we made the lot of saving in terms of credit costs from a P&L standpoint in that 90% scenario. Can you explain that thing for us?

Yes. So I'll give you the CGMFU example because that is an easier example to share. Let's say, there is an event tomorrow, and there is a 10% gross NPA need. The cost to the bank and Abhilash help me, if there's a 10% gross NPA or provisioning need, our impact to the bank would be what?

2.7%.

2.7% and that includes a 1% cost on top. So 3.7% will be -- so on a 10% gross NPA under CGMFU, my impact should be 3.7%. So Manish, what I am really trying to do and rightly so not just me, I'm sure other players are also going this way, taking away -- the event risk away. I mean, I can handle a small drought. I can handle a small unemployment issue or a particular state has some other disturbance. What I can't handle is a large-scale disturbance. And I don't want -- when I turned 70% secured, the 30% will disturb the bank, right? And that is the only problem that I don't want to be sitting in future with. So our bias is, please provision for the cost. When I said I will grow PAT by 30%, Manish, the cost of guaranteeing the balance 60-odd -- 70-odd percent, I've already included in my numbers. But the good thing is once I do it this year, then every other year after that on a year-on-year will not be impacted. My 30% growth in PAT already assumes that the INR 50-odd crores I would need to do my provisioning, to do my guarantee program, it is already baked in my numbers.

And lastly, sir, you talked about your cost-to-income ratio because this year we have a lower income, and that's why the cost-to-income ratio increased against our guidance of 54%. And you said we will have a first 5 -- first digit will be 5 in cost-to-income ratio. So going into a slightly deeper perspective, like if I see the 20% growth of our balance sheet, where you see our cost to -- cost expenses growth to track down the balance sheet growth lower than that? How one should think of it, given the mix of the business?

So first, I'll tell you a very basic approach here. See, one is I have the same number of people in unsecured when I was doing INR 10,000 crores as I'm doing today. So I'm at INR 9,000 crores with the same number of people when I had INR 10,000 crores. So I can see that my unsecured doesn't need more headcount. And between you and me, it's very simple here, the biggest cost growth really is headcount. What we have done this year is really invested in growth of our secured business because we have 2 choices when things go wrong, which is like we all get scared and we start hoping for things to go -- solve themselves and we start then growing or we say, listen, this is our chance. God is telling us that, listen, you need to take the pivot to secure, even faster, even harder. I'll give you one number. When we began March '24, the number of people who were in business, that is in sales and affordable housing and Micro LAP was 1,800 people. I'm finishing March '25 with 3,300 people in affordable housing Micro LAP. I think I've already made the investment. It is already baked into my numbers. You should see a strong growth already. So first, you will not see as much cost growth this year as you saw last year. That is the first point I'm making. And by giving you the 2 big headcount guzzlers of our bank, which is both micro finance as well as housing, I'm explaining why costs will not grow up. The other answer you already know, which is revenue will go up as we do more unsecured and as the balance sheet grows. The third piece I mentioned was digitalization and some of the AI projects kicking in, but I'm not building for that. That will only be a top -- something on top of it. So yes, we will have a 5 digit in front of our cost income as we finish this year. What will it be exactly -- sorry. Go ahead.

Sure, sir. Thank you for answering all my questions. And we expect predictable earnings to sustain in the coming quarters and years. All the very best for your F '27 guidance.

Thank you, Manish.

The next question is from the line of Chintan Shah from ICICI Securities.

Congratulations on a good quarter. So sir, firstly, on the gold loan. So if I see on the gold loan GNPA percentage, so it has inched up from 1.1% in the previous quarter to 2.7% currently. So could you just help with the reason why is it so -- and also the coverage ratio has also been maintained around 60% there. So are the LTVs really high? Or is it something tactical? Yes, firstly on that.

So I would put it as, you will not see it at this number when we meet next quarter. I think we could have done a slightly better job. I think in the overall way things are, we kind of at a particular geography, we kind of didn't pay a bit of attention, which is why it's slightly gone up. There is no issue around, do we have -- our average LTV is about 60-odd percent. There is not a rupee loss in gold. It's very technical in nature. It's just something that we could have probably done, better handling is about how I would put it. We'll fix it before we meet you next quarter. So good thing about gold is we are very comfortable with the growth. We will continue growing very strongly. And you will see that when the next -- the other -- the quarter results are 2 months away, we already finished the first month, right? We are very comfortable with our gold. 2.7% is a very technical issue. It's got nothing to do with fraud or gold valuation or anything like that. It's just the way one of our geographies have managed the interest collection. So that is a fixable issue. Already most of it is fixed, nothing to worry about.

Sure. And so sir, on the RBI gold loan circular, so is there any impact to us due to this circular?

So I think the impact is very positive because it says that all regulated entities, which includes NBFCs and banks should have 75% loan-to-value, including the interest. And as you know, that was a difference between banks and NBFCs, where NBFCs were able to do 75% without the interest. So I think there's a level-playing field. I think there is clear guidance on what should happen during renewals, what should happen during top up. So that ambiguity has gone away from everybody's mind. I think they've been very clear. So I do think that from our perspective, the gold loan gives us what I would think is commonality and one platform for all the players, which is great. So it's a level-playing field. And two, there was some discussion in the system that could you do it this way or that way? I think it has been very, very clear right now. So it's very helpful to us. We are very, very enthused with this. And I must tell you that as we speak, wherever we had part-time values, we are turning to full-time values, we are thinking of getting a few machines on karatmeter so that we can expand that business. So yes, I mean, I said gold has given us confidence. You've seen our stupendous growth last year. And you should see an equally strong one, if not a stronger one this year. It will be a core business to us, and it's important to our customers.

Yes. That is helpful. And sir, secondly, now on the growth. Now I think for the next quarter, we are guiding for a similar growth on the loan as well as the deposit front. Given that the CD ratio is now well under control, so that should also be aiding margin, right? Is that a fair assessment?

Yes. So Chintan, first, I must tell you, see, CD ratio never held us back. For us, managing CD ratio, including refinance has always been our basic going-in position. The reason we have made sure that we did this deposit growth, if you take away any of the questions that people may have, it's a bit of a cost to us. As you can see, we are now INR 2,800 crores as surplus cash, we are typically at INR 1,500, right? So it's a bit of cash. But I think we have taken up with that question mark, the people used to tell, can you grow our deposit base? The market is so tough, what will happen, et cetera. So I think that question is now no more question is what I would assume, and that should give us -- it gives us -- I mean, we already had that comfort. But I'm now transferring the comfort to all my current or future investors. Yes. So here is a good part. My secured is growing very strong. It will grow very strong. The margins are very stable. Very important, our secured business is not a product business. It's a multiproduct business. I must tell you in my gold loan growth, my branch banking, which are doing liabilities, has a very important role to play. My 2-wheeler salespeople are also selling gold loans. And listen, it is very important because this is a culture of the organization. You're building an organization where every single banker is conscious that his role is to give as many needs as possible of our customers met through our bank. And I'm giving those examples because to us, that is the most important thing. We will certainly do a strong asset growth, be rest assured. Margins will improve. We just mentioned to Manish earlier the reasons. Yes. I mean, there's nothing else that I can add further.

Sure. So sir, just a follow-up on this. So you tell -- so what would be our product per customer right now? And how was it like 1 year or 2 years back?

So Chintan, if you look at the slide number, so this is basically that 16 number slide, but this is our housing and Micro LAP book. So I just want to step back and tell everyone, what is our original view. Our original view is the base product of our bank will be housing. So it is Micro LAP, it is affordable housing, MSME LAP. So we want housing to be the base. We think home, whether it is where you stay or where you work, it is a linchpin of a consumer. Wherever he has his home loan, where his home relationship is, LAP is, that will be the primary bank to our customer. That hasn't changed. We have done some work internally where we feel, as you go out into the future, between 50% to 60% of the bank's book will be property backed. Property is the most resilient asset through any cycle. Now obviously, when you do property, you can do prime mortgages, which doesn't give you enough ROA, ROE for us or you can do affordable housing, which is hard work, does give you higher GNPA, but it's obviously a high ROA, ROE business, which is where we are. And as you can see, very importantly, customers don't like to go to multiple institutions. I take a gold loan from X, I take a 2-wheeler from Y, I keep my bank account at Z, personal loan from A. It doesn't work. It's just too complicated for customers from a KYC angle, multiple repayments. It's a hazard, right? And you can see from Page #16, that it works very well with customers. Customers like it. I mean, A, it is, of course, the most common sense thing to say, but the issue has always been execution. Two, banks execute on a customer vision. And it's a tough one because all banks have silos, right? Affordable Housing team is different from the Gold team. But will the Gold team sell affordable housing and Affordable Housing sell gold. That's cultural and the way you build incentive, the way you train, the way you make people think about the organization, the way your processes are, the way your systems are organized. And for us, the good news is we have that working for us. And we just want to accelerate that further. At some point, I will try and give other products cross holding also so that you can see how the bank is really building itself into a customer strategy.

Sure. And if I just may last -- squeeze in one last question. So on the accelerated provision now we have INR 305 crores. So there are any further plans of making further accelerated provisions in FY '26? And how do you plan to utilize this? Or what could trigger the utilization of these provisions?

So actually, this is a bit of a very simple one, Chintan, which is -- these are against specific accounts. If the account needs further provisioning, we'll use this INR 305 crores. If the accounts don't need any provisioning, this will not be used. If these account improve, which is they repay us back or they become out of NPA, then we'll release the provision. So that's the 3 ways it can be used. Our bias will continue -- sorry. Go ahead, Chintan.

So those accounts are currently standard on the...

No, they're all NPA accounts. The accelerated provision is only an NPA account. The INR 305 crores is stacked against NPA accounts. So it will defray by provisioning into the future.

So these are provisions more than what is the regulatory requirement? so that is why it is termed as accelerated, right?

Thank you so much. Maybe I should have mentioned it. I took it for granted. Yes. So which is why if you see the page, which is Page 1 itself, it talks about regulatory provision, what is required as per the norms and these accelerated provision on specific NPA accounts. When those accounts mature, when I say the -- rather they are resolved and they become standard, I release the provision. If they don't get resolved, they will need more provisioning. I already have accelerated provision, I won't provision further. The bottom line, Chintan, the most important to us is that we will need to maintain a net NPA below 1, gross NPA below 3 as we continue through the Universal Bank application journey. So yes, I will not -- I will tell you that we will have some accelerated provision this year also. But again, a lot depends -- why was acceleration provision 300 and not 200? Because of MFI stress. If there's no stress, acceleration provision would be lower here. So I expect it to be much lower this year, but won't be 0 because you would like to keep net NPA below 1% and gross NPA below 3%.

The next question is from the line of Nidhesh Jain from Investec.

A couple of data keeping questions. Can you break the slippage number in secured and unsecured? I want to see how the secured asset quality is playing out. And similarly, if you can share the write-off number for Q4 as well as for FY '25 and again, break it down in between secured and unsecured.

Okay. That's an easy one. Sorry, what I mean is the CFO is again pulling it out. Do you have a follow-up question while he pulls it out?

No, no. That's it.

Okay. So why don't take next question while he pulls out the data.

Shall we move to the next question?

Please move to the next, I'll just come back.

The next question is from the line of Shailesh Kanani from Centrum Broking.

Sir, can you give a breakup of this regulatory provision of INR 448 crores in terms of MFI and secured book?

Just one second. I think already working on this. He'll bring it out. Yes, sorry, all the excel spreadsheets are working on the sides because we are not breaking them. We have products by products, we do not have secured/unsecured as a break. So if you told to give me MFI like individual loan, group loan, et cetera, they have the number, just adding it up, one more second. Out of the INR 448 crores, roughly about INR 280 crores is for unsecured and the balance is for secured. [Technical Difficulty] is for the 30% of the book and [Technical Difficulty] the 70% is about [ INR 420 crores ] minus about INR 260 crores, yes 280 is MFI which is 30% of our [Technical Difficulty] rest is for secured. So that answers that. I still owe earlier question to Investec on the flow rates.

So just for understanding purposes that, that seems to be an excellent performance considering the last year what across players, the industry has seen in terms of credit costs. So my thought process or I want to understand from you is that in my understanding and my calculation, CGFMU cross cycle normally the cost somewhere falls in the range of 2.7% to 3-odd percent. And as per this number, we are around 2.8% in terms of credit costs, right? So in worst of the cycles, if we are having a credit cost, which is less than 3%, which is a phenomenal job, why should we be spending on CGFMU cover? Because generally, the cycle plays out, say, once in 3 years. So can you explain this?

Sure. So here is my thought here. First, I want to talk a bit about the book. See, we had a BC book where we had FLDG drop, so roughly about INR 120-odd crores of provisioning came from the BC, which is why it is not my credit cost. So that's one. And while the BC book's GNPA is high, [indiscernible] we've always mentioned it through the year. I think our BC strategy is around preparing also for a year where it becomes a bit rough for us. So BC has been a positive in terms of credit cost, which may not be true for every player. Second, nearly about 55% to 60% of our book is actually individual loans. And a larger portion of that is actually urban in nature. And this time, as you know, it is more a group loan problem and is more rural in nature. So the second reason why we should be differential in terms of performance from the rest. The third piece, I'll just give you the single number. If you take a CAGR of unsecured growth for Jana Bank from 2018 to 2025, which is only 7 years, it will be the 1.5% number, plus or minus a bit. So we have never grown aggressively. And the only problem in unsecured is when you grow aggressively, you do things which are not normal growth cycle growth. So 3 reasons why our unsecured should have always been better than any regular competitor. And we have been saying this for some time, but that's a different matter. Now why would I do CGFMU, CGTMSE? See, I can't predict every down cycle here. I don't want to be sitting here with you tomorrow and there is something more severe happens. And I feel that I try to save some money here. And remember, this money on a year-on-year -- only this year will be an impact. From next year, it will be a year-on-year basis impact here. And we have seen that MFI continues, whether it's [ demonetization ] followed by COVID, distress, there is some small possibility that we have seen a Karnataka small decline. Maybe it could have been worse. I just feel that it's probably good for the bank, then maybe I give a bit of ROE -- a bit of ROA, but we get that event risk out of our minds here. I certainly don't see us exiting the MFI business. It has a lot of value. But I don't see ourselves taking that chance that something unmanageable happens, and then we are all wondering why did we save the 1% here. I know it's 1% per year, but I do think it is worth that we actually just solve it here. And I don't know if this is the worst stress year. Maybe next year will be even worse. I don't know. I don't want to be in a position where I don't know. Does that help?

Okay. So just a follow-up on the similar line. So we have seen a very good jump in noninterest income, other income, right, on a Q-on-Q basis as well. Anything to call out there? Any one-offs? And also, are we charging our customers for the CGFMU what we are buying, what we are doing for their loans?

No. So we have not changed the customer IRRs at all. We have kept the IRRs the same. Because frankly, a guarantee or non-guarantee, we wouldn't like our customers to kind of use that and say, okay, anyway, you've got a guarantee, I won't pay. So we've kept that very much within ourselves. So that's one.

So there is no charge for CGFMU for the customer, right?

Yes. The customer IRR [indiscernible] so sorry, do you want to finish that -- anything else because I want to go back to the last question on...

No, no, please continue.

Okay. So the flow rate for quarter 4, that was the question earlier, was unsecured INR 309 crores and the jump previous quarter was Q3 was INR 277 crores and that basically came from Karnataka. And that was unsecured flow rate, gross flow and it is not net in terms of actual dollar or rupee value for...

Sorry to interrupt to you, sir. May I request Mr. Kanani to please mute your line because we cannot hear. There is a lot of disturbance in the background.

Sure, sure. I'll do that.

I'll just repeat the question which Nidhesh had earlier. Nidhesh, the unsecured flow rate was gross flow, not net. It's INR 309 crores, up from INR 277 crores in quarter 3, and that was primarily to do with the Karnataka thing. And on secured, it remained very flat between Q3 and Q4 at around INR 150 crores. Nidhesh, does that answer your question?

I think he's not online. It is still Shailesh here, sir, from my side. Sir, just to continue on my noninterest income part, can you share any one-offs over there in the noninterest income?

Beyond PSL income. Other income he is asking. The PSL income of almost INR 18 crores for the quarter, referring to the quarter and net is INR 6 crore, but in other income is referring directly from the financials. There we have booked INR 18 crores, and we also booked a cost of INR 13 crores under the OpEx. So that's why the OpEx is also slightly elevated and other income is also limited. Net, we have gained around INR 5 crores between expense and income.

That is the only one-off, INR 18 crores has come added to the other income line, and we have lost INR 13 crores on the OpEx line. That is both PSLC transactions.

Got it, sir. Sir, just last [indiscernible] keeping question. Can you give a breakup of CA and SA numbers? And that would be all from my side, sir.

Okay. So SA has declared there as INR 5,000 crores something. The rest is CA.

The next question is from the line of Saumil Shah from Paras Investments.

So for FY '25, if you remove accelerated provisions, then our PAT is about INR 780 crores. So if we were to calculate 20% growth for FY '26 plus some reversals which we may have from this accelerated provisions. So can we assume we can cross 4-figure mark in terms of PAT for FY '26?

[Foreign Language] See, not all accelerated will be unused here. See, accelerated provision is for NPA customers, right? So [Foreign Language] so some NPA customers will become -- go in to full provision, right? So not all of INR 305 crores will not be required in this year. So that's one. Number two, we will do some accelerated provision this year also. But yes, I would argue and think about maybe if all things go well, the following year, we can talk of somewhere around that number.

Okay. We also have a DTA benefit.

Because see, if I'll give you a simple back of the envelope here. If you had unsecured growth of INR 1,000 crores this year, so INR 9,000 crores becomes INR 10,000 crores, which was our March '24 number. So March '24 was INR 10,000 crores unsecured becomes INR 9,000 crores this year, rough and ready. Next year goes back to INR 10,000 crores, which is FY '26. That will add straight to the bottom line, minimum INR 100 crores. So -- and forget -- and of course, less provisioning, some recovery from the past, it all look nice, and we know that. Now the question is, we don't want to grow so fast. We want to make sure that the environment is cleaner. We want to grow, like I said, very, very conservatively on unsecured till we know that everything looks sorted. Today, unsecured MFI doesn't look as totally sorted. It is still a mixed bag. It is mixed by geography. It has got some trouble in a particular state unexpectedly. So I would have loved to reach the 4-figure mark. And I must tell you that has been not just mine, but our entire management team's dream that we should get there as fast as we can. But I don't want to chance it here. So yes, I would give myself one more year for that.

So what are we guiding for FY '26 in terms of PAT?

What I put in the guidance note, which is 30% approximately. And we'll probably get more firmer on that guidance as the year progresses.

I'm saying that's conservative.

We are a 70% secured bank, my friend.

Okay. And sir, any trailing cost guidance for FY '26?

So certainly lower than this year. How much lower? Give us a quarter to go by. Like I said, let some of the unknowns, at least how much does Karnataka finally fall through, does Tamil Nadu become a small issue? I don't know all these things. So just give me a bit of time. But all I can tell you, it will be obviously, the elephant is out of the room. The big provision has been done. Last year is over. So it'll get better than this year. More formal numbers, we will give when we probably meet you after first quarter.

And sir, my final question, sir, on the deferred tax asset, what is the amount left with us for FY '27?

See, the way you think about it is like this. First, we have enough DTA left. Right now, the DTA between last year and this year is INR 155 crores plus this year was how much?

Sir, total is INR 185 crores.

INR 185 crores. So here is -- see, the final year of DTA is 2027, FY '27. That year, right now, DTA is INR 177 crores. Let's say, DTA becomes INR 200 crores by FY '26. At 25%, that means I should minimum make a PAT of or rather PBT of INR 800 crores in the year FY '27. So that's how you should think about DTA. So DTA has probably another -- if you ask me, between INR 20 crores to another INR 40 crores addition at best, depending on how this year pans out. And yes, we will continue on taxable FY '27. We are short of where we had promised PAT this year. So we were hoping to get a PAT of between INR 650 crores to INR 700 crores last financial year, which we haven't done. We've got INR 501 crores. So you can expect probably about INR 50 crores, INR 60 crores of DTA to be lost based on last year's performance.

So basically FY '25 end, how much we are left with around INR 650 crores?

Yes, INR 500-odd crores.

INR 550 crores.

INR 550 crores.

The next question is from the line of Niharika Karnani from CapGrow Capital.

Congratulations on good set of numbers. So a couple of questions from my end. In the adjusted ROA of 2.31%, so just wanted to have an idea like how much ROA is generated purely through BC book, question one. And question 2 is, have we done any kind of asset sale to ARCs this year?

So the first one is, see, ROA on a BC book on a year basis would be tough to -- because a bad year means ROA is negative. On a good year, the ROA will be very positive. We looked at through the cycle performance of a BC or an MFI book combined, ROA comes around 2%. And I'm talking of fully loaded through the cycle credit cost, which you normally assume between 4% to 6%. So that's the way why we do BC and why we do MFI because like this year can't be a great number for any ROA for any MFI book or for a BC book. But if you go to the previous year, it is like a brilliant number. So we kind of average it out. Yes, we have done ARC sale this year, both on secured and unsecured and mainly unsecured.

Has this follow-up question...

As you know, the ARC provisioning between -- sorry, the provisioning for an unsecured book with ARC or within the bank has to be identical. So what I'm trying to say is there is no difference of provisioning for the bank, whether the asset sits in ARC or whether the asset sits in the bank. It is an identical provisioning methodology.

Understood. Sir, just one follow-up question here. Has the sales -- ARC sales gone up in FY '25 compared to FY '24? And what would be the bank's practice in future years regarding this?

So listen, we think ARC is a good tool for the bank. It gives time for collections. It obviously brings in, in some cases, some expertise from the ARC companies. So we certainly would like to play a judicious mix. It is also a cost. So which is why I said, all depends on 3 things, which is what is the flow rates into gross NPA and net NPAs? Where do we -- and that is the first determinant. Based on the flow size, we decide whether we would like to continue with our provisioning and hold it with us? Or would we like to get some time to solve it and hold it with the ARC. What we are very mindful of is provisioning is identical between the bank and the ARC. And two, for us, ARC is also, in some cases, to get any expertise from them, certainly, in the secured side. They do have a lot of help that they can provide and a lot of experience that they bring in. So those are the parameters. So yes, ARC is a good thing to do. It is certainly a tool available for banks to manage their NPAs better and something we would certainly keep as a tool in our handbag as we go into next year. Whether we do it or not do it, all depends on how the NPA flows through.

Perfect. And sir, just last question. Any difference in asset quality results, any difference in provisioning when ARC sales is done. So I wanted to ask sir, what's the practice of banks to sell what quality of assets to ARCs and keep it in its own books?

First, it is a regulation. There cannot be any difference. You only decide what takes longer to resolve and where you need expertise. And that is the one that you choose. And you decide the quantum based on what you think you want to continue on your books as provisioning or what you take on the ARC book because as you sell to an ARC, your gross NPA comes down. So it really helps you figure out on a gross NPA, you want to reduce gross NPA by taking technical provisions, you want to reduce gross NPA using an ARC or you want to -- and that depends on the flow of the year. So again, first, used to be very clear, it is an RBI regulation, you cannot have a differential structure between ARC and non-ARC in terms of provisioning. It's an identical asset. You provision an ARC book as it is on your books. That is an ARC customer.

The next question is from the line of Sagar Shah from Spark PWM.

I had around 3 questions actually. Now my first question was on the liability side, our retail deposits as compared to our old deposits are decreasing almost quarter-on-quarter. It stands at almost 58% as of now. So can you highlight that do we have some strategy on Board to at least increase the retail penetration in our liability portfolio? Any guidance on even branch addition? So that is my first question, sir.

So I'll let Shrini, who's our Head of Branch Banking, runs the liability business, answer that.

So first of all, on the branch addition. It's there in the investor deck. We continue to add branches every quarter. So the branch addition will continue in the next financial year as well. On your question on drop in retail deposits and what is our strategy to continue to build that. Clearly, the product process and people strategy that Ajay talked about will continue to be our mainstay to bring in retail deposits. Ajay talked about 3, 4 products, which we recently come up with, which are tracking well. So we will continue to build our scale on the retail side with the help of those products. And we think that going forward, this should continue to improve in the quarters ahead.

So just to supplement what Shrini said. See first, let's look at the 3 numbers. CASA growth rate 18%, while the CASA cost has gone down. Retail deposit growth rate 19% and then bulk growing around 40-odd percent. So really, retail deposit is growing. But obviously, the bulk is growing faster than retail. And as you can see very well that our ability to do task accounts, our ability to work with various government accounts, our ability to work with various FIGs, that's a very strong propensity of we have developed. And in spite of having a good growth in bulk, we still have one of the -- we are not one -- we probably have the best LCR in the industry. So there is a good virtue we have, which we don't want to give up. But yes, should retail grow harder than bulk, ideally, yes. And maybe this is the year we would say that because liquidity has become much better. Our segments which we launched last year are showing good results. CASA is showing it, retail is showing it. But because we did get a good opportunity on bulk growth, it does look like the retail number has gone down, but retail by itself has grown 19%.

Okay. So at least in FY '26, can we see that number inching up to 60% to 65%, sir?

Absolutely, that will be our serious and sincere attempt because we also would like to see that higher for no other reason. So if you look at the slide and this slide, I'll give you a slide number. We have opened roughly about 52 branches last year. Let me just get the number, I don't want to say the wrong number.

Slide #18.

Yes, Slide #18, if you go to. So 52 branches last year, 28 of the 52 have come in quarter 4. So we are expanding branch network. I also mentioned we opened the first branch in Andhra, which is in Guntur. And then if you see in the same Page 18, we have this Legend, NRI, Exclusive and Premier programs all launched last year. So yes, you have every reason to expect and ask us for more retail deposits. And given our liquidity position now, our need to grow bulk is very diminished. So you would see naturally a retail and CASA combined grow into the 60s this year, absolutely fair to ask.

And that would also basically at least lower your cost of funds, if I'm not wrong, right?

Yes. Cost of fund, I think anyway should come down, honestly, because even bulk will become cheaper this year. So expecting everything to be cheaper this year is fair to expect also.

Okay, My second question was regarding to the asset quality. Asset quality, you already highlighted in the last quarter that we have seen the worst. And in this quarter, again, we saw some sort of higher slippages, especially from the unsecured book. And now you guided on earlier on the call that FY '26 seems to be at least positive for unsecured space. But looking at your BC book and Agri book, the asset quality has deteriorated even further actually. The GNPA has touched almost 12.7% for BC book and 7.5% for agri. And still the net NPA is far above 2% for both of these. So going ahead, can you -- first of all, what is the picture for FY '26 on both these cases? And secondly, have we actually seen the worst or because you have guided for even for further accelerated provisioning on the secured fronts. Can you give color on these 2 segments, sir?

Yes, sure. So first is you are reading Page 13. Am I correct?

Yes, that's correct.

So in that page, next to the GNPA is quarter-on-quarter growth, year-on-year growth. And you will see that both the BC Book is in decline and agri book is in a decline. So a lot of the gross NPA percentages you're referring to is because denominator is also going down. Is that fair?

Yes.

I don't see the denominator going down in any significant way this year. So you will get that denominator positivity. And as you can expect in any book, whether it's a BC book or an agri book, there are customers who are overleveraged, there are customers that have used opportunities not to pay. And they will kind of make -- they kind of flow through and become part of your NPA. So the most aggressive, most leveraged, most naughty customers are already in net NPA. So the lump left behind is not much. Unfortunately, what happens in the agri book is if you look at the Karnataka problem over the first quarter, it largely is in the rural areas. It's not in the urban areas. So while we didn't anticipate a Karnataka blip, it did happen in the first quarter. Now if there is no Tamil Nadu blip, then we will be in a good position. And it is exactly for this reason, we do 2 things. One is we try to grow slowly. B, We want to take away event risk through guarantee programs. But am I nervous growing agri? No. I'm not sitting here saying, listen, it makes me nervous, so I won't grow microfinance. I'm telling you that, yes, within our criteria, we will grow microfinance. Will it grow at 10%? Unlikely. But certainly, in the 3% to 5% range, we see it growing because we are very conservative. So again, if there is nothing which surprises us, you will obviously see a peaking out. The peaking out got slightly muddled with Karnataka, but nothing serious. And we should then see again a gradual decline. But you and I should know that, I don't think MFI is sorted out as yet. It is still something to be on high alert for, and that is what we'll be. I'm not guiding you to get worried on credit cost. But I'm telling you if you read this page, where we are very transparent about our challenges, whether it's BC book or agri book, and we do that from a transparency angle because those are the challenges we have, and we want investors to know that. But that doesn't make -- will I grow my BC book this year? Yes. I did mention earlier in the call that BC may be the positive surprise, nobody is expecting, but it may end up being that. And that's how we think about it right now. And this is in spite of seeing a 12.7% GNPA in front of me because that is a denominator problem.

Okay. So you highlighted I missed out. So Karnataka is -- book is mostly in rural areas than urban areas you said.

The Impact of Karnataka challenge is mostly in the rural areas. I have a book which is urban and rural divided, but my impact, which has seen the slippage in the rural areas.

Okay. Okay. So now my last question, sir, is on LCR. LCR, you have done a fine job on that. Now our LCR stands very comfortable at around 253%. So going ahead, do you want to at least guide on FY '26 basis that will our LCR further come down because the cash that is lying on the balance sheet is still huge. The cash, especially lying with the RBI, it's far higher. The growth is almost 3x actually. So do you want to guide something on in FY '26 that our LCR will even go below 200%. So that will automatically benefit our NIMs actually.

So you're 100% correct. And I did say earlier that as a liquidity -- see, what does the LCR do? It tells you stable by a year. And in a tight environment of liquidity last year, we wanted to have a lot of stable money. And when you have bulk deposit, even more important to have bulk, which is stable and which is what we achieved. Now the market is -- clearly, the liquidity has become much better. So for us to ease out a bit on LCR is very normal. So you should expect LCR to get lower. I must also tell you we'll model the upcoming LCR regulation, which goes live on April '26 into our thinking and our work before we decide to bring it down. But yes, I'll confirm 2 things. One, LCR will come down. It will still remain very healthy after taking into account the April '26 number or other guidelines, which are coming into effect from April '26.

The next question is from the line of Sarvesh Gupta from Maximal Capital.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Sir, most of the questions have been answered. Just one clarification. So on the micro finance book of INR 9,000-odd crores. So our gross NPA is INR 350 crores. And so we are -- and the net NPA is around INR 70 crores, INR 80-odd crores. And this is after the additional provisions of INR 305 crores that you have taken this year. And is that correct, sir?

That's right. That's from Slide #13.

Yes.

Are you reading Slide 13? Yes. So that's the number, yes.

Okay. And what is the SMA book, sir, before the loss NPA, which is still there?

So that would roughly be about INR 400-odd crore? About -- approx INR 400-odd crores?

And what kind of provisions are we carrying against that?

Again, SMA, we are not carrying any provisions. You mean SMA-012?

Yes. For micro finance.

The entire provision is carried against NPA book only. There is no provisioning in SMA book.

Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Thank you so much. First, thanks, Nuvama, and all of you for patiently listening and being on this call. I just want to close the call by saying only in tough years, do you get to see quality make a difference and I thought us turning secured all this while, what does it mean in a real sense is visible to us so, so obviously, and I'm sure to you all also. I think second is the way the team handled the crisis, and I think it comes from handling 2 past crisis, which is both [ demonetization ] and COVID, I think the response has been very mature. And I must tell you that we feel very comfortable sitting here as we go into this financial year of exactly what to do. I'm also, in a way, really hoping and looking forward to the Universal Bank application because to us, that will be a game changer. Our whole liability propensity and cost will change significantly and so also our ability to do some of the products, which we think will have better customer attraction once we turn universal. And finally, I do think that us building an anchor bank for Rising India is a competitive moat and differentiator. And I'm sure that will keep us in good stead. With that, thank you so much. Good night, and hope to see you again next quarter.

Thank you. On behalf of Nuvama Wealth and Investment Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.