Jumbo Interactive Limited (JIN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to Jumbo Interactive's 2026 Annual General Meeting. I'm Susan Forrester, the Chair of the Board, and it's a pleasure to be with you here on a hot day in Brisbane. The [indiscernible] around is in full bloom and we are at Melton Green, our head office in Brisbane. I'd like to welcome those of you who are viewing our AGM today via webcast. I'd like to begin by acknowledging the Yuggara and Turrbal peoples and pay my respects to their elders, past and present. I'd like to extend my respect to Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people who are joining us for the presentation today. I have been advised by Lauren our Company Secretary that a quorum is present, and I'm pleased to declare the meeting open. Joining me for the AGM today are Sharon Christensen, Non-Executive Director; Giovanni Rizzo, Non-Executive Director, who will be dialing in online from Sydney; Michael Malone, Non-Executive Director, well known to you Mike Veverka, Managing Director, CEO and Founder; and Jatin Khosla, where are you, Jatin, our CFo. We also have Susie Kuo representative from our auditor, Ernst & Young, who is also attending the meeting and will be available to answer any questions. Giovanni Rizzo was Chair of our Audit and Risk Committee; and Sharon Christensen as Chair of our People and Culture Committee are also available to answer any questions. Before moving on to the business of the meeting, I'd like to draw your attention to the voting procedures for today's meeting. As set out in the notice of meeting, voting on each of the resolutions will be conducted by a poll. On your yellow voting card, which you would have received at registration is your voting paper, which details the resolutions being put to this meeting. When asked, please record your vote for each resolution on your voting card. For each resolution, I will introduce the resolution. There will be an opportunity for shareholders and proxy holders last questions. Those persons entitled to vote on the resolution may cast a vote on the resolution at any time before the close of the poll. And the result poll we released to the ASX company announcements platform and made available on our company's website as soon as possible after the close of the meeting. So when I spoke to you last year, we had just completed the acquisitions of the Dream Car Giveaways in the U.K. and Dream Giveaway in the United States, which together form our Dream giveaways business. 12 months [indiscernible] confidence that FY '26 has been a year of strategic transformation for Jumbo. And I believe it will be remembered as an inflection point in our history. Jumbo is now a diversified international company to lottery and price roll company. FY '26 again showed the resilience of our business model. Another subdued characterized as a 1 in 45-year outcome, the group delivered double-digit growth across key underlying financial metrics underpinned by the 2 Dream Giveaway acquisitions. Group revenue increased 33% to $194 million. Underlying EBITDA rose 25% to $85 million and underlying [ NPATA ] grew 20% to $51 million. The result reflects a growing contribution of our international businesses, led by Dream Giveaways and in this first year with us alongside continued momentum from our SaaS business and solid performance from our Managed Services business. Consistent with our revised dividend policy, the Board declared a final dividend of $0.15 per share, bringing the FY '26 fully franked dividend to $0.27 per share. This represents a payout of 49.5% group net profit after tax at the top end of our 30% to 50% target range, allowing us to continue to reduce debt and maintain a strong balance sheet. Since announcing our FY '26 results, we have continued our on-market share buyback, purchasing approximately $4.3 million of shares, taking total purchases under the program to [ $39.8 ] million. The buyback will continue as a disciplined and opportunistic basis. Our strategy remains the same: to protect and grow our core lottery retail business through [indiscernible] Lotteries while accelerating growth and diversification by integrating our Dream Giveaways business, optimizing SaaS and managed services and pursuing selective M&A. Mike will talk shortly about how that strategy has shaped the business and what Jumbo looks like today. We've also continued to embed artificial intelligence across the business from software development to customer insights fraud and compliance monitoring with clear governance guardrails. The Board sees this as a way to strengthen our competitive advantages and to grow efficiently. As we've become larger, more international and more complex the Board has made sure our governance and risk management practices keep pace. In FY '26, we updated our risk management policy, our risk appetite statement to reflect expanded operations across Australia the U.K., Canada and the United States. Under our constitution, I retire by rotation today and I'm standing for reelection. When we reach that item of business, Giovanni Rizzo, Chair of our Audit and Risk Committee, will chair the meeting, and I'll say a few words then. You'll also be asked to vote on the remuneration report and on 3 resolutions relating to equity awards for our Managing Director and CEO, Mike Veverka. These are is FY '26 STI rights, his FY '27 LTI options and a one-off equity grant. The Board strongly believes these awards align Mike's interest with those of shareholders rewarding formats and supporting the retention of a founder CEO who is absolutely critical in delivering the next phase of our strategy. The next 3 years, spanning the integration of our U.K. and U.S. acquisitions and the renewal of our reseller agreement with the Lottery Corporation are a critical period in which management stability and continuation are great importance. Despite record underlying earnings, our existing long-term incentives are unlikely to vest, largely because of structural factors beyond management's control, including that prolonged period of below-average jackpots and the amortization of acquired intangibles. The one-off grant is designed to retain key management throughout this period and only vest if the executive remains with Jumbo until the 30th of June 2030. The Board recommends that you vote in favor of these resolutions. Turning to our people. These are at the heart of Jumbo's success. This year, our people have welcomed new teams and new colleagues in the United Kingdom and the U.S. and they have adapted to working across more markets and more time zones than ever before. Our continued investment in culture shows the results an employee engagement score of 82%, voluntary attrition amongst our high potential employees is below 6% and a group gender balance of 58 to 42. We've just got a little bit of work to do there, but we are moving the dial. We continue to invest in developing our people's capabilities through initiatives such as Jumbo University, our leadership programs, supporting skills and leadership needed for jumbo's continued growth. I'd also like to acknowledge Jatin Khosla, who recently announced he will be stepping down as our CFO to pursue another opportunity. Over the past 5.5 years, Jatin has made an outstanding contribution to Jumbo. He came in as our Investment Relations Officer. First, a new role for Jumbo and then moved into the CFO role a couple of years later. He transformed our finance function, significantly strengthened the group's financial capital markets and Investor Relations capabilities. He's also been a trusted adviser to the Board and played a key role in shaping and executing strategy, including the acquisitions that have transformed Jumbo into the international business than it is today. Jatin will leave a strong and experienced finance team and a business well positioned for its next phase of growth. On behalf of the Board, I'd like to thank Jatin for his leadership, judgment and his commitment to Jumbo. The Board has commenced a process to appoint a new CFO, and we will update the market in due course. I'd now like to touch on sustainability which is essential to what Jumbo does. Through our software and managed service businesses, our fundraising lotteries have helped more than 18,000 not-for-profit organizations across Australia, the U.K. and Canada, and helped raise more than $250 million for good causes in FY '26. Jumbo also retained its MSCI ESG rating of AAA, the highest available. Responsible play remains fundamental to our license to operate. In FY '26, we built a structured case management into our platforms, enhanced proactive monitoring of player activity for signs of harm and continued mandatory responsible gaming -- gambling training for all customer-facing employees. We support the voluntary code of good practice in the U.K. for price draw operators, and we will continue to engage constructively with regulators and industry bodies wherever we operate. Looking ahead, climate-related financial disclosures become mandatory for Jumbo from this financial year. FY '26 was our full year of reporting Scope 1 and Scope 2 emissions across the group, including our new U.K. and U.S. businesses from acquisition. And with the support of external advisers, we are well prepared for our first report under the new standard. In fact, we had our Board training session this morning on exactly that topic. In closing, FY '26 marks a genuine turning point in Jumbo's history. The Board is confident that we will end FY '27 with a rightful strategy to create long term for all holders and stakeholders. On behalf of the Board, thank you to our customers, partners and shareholders for your continued trust and support. I'll now hand over to Mike to present a more detailed view of our company's performance.

Thanks, Sue, and good morning, everyone. Great to see so many familiar faces here, and welcome to those joining us online. I thought the best place to start will just be to step back a bit and just have a look at how much Jumbo has grown. In FY '18, we generated $40 million in revenue. We're Australian-centric and we're pretty much just add 1 customer. Everything we did dependent on that single government lottery relationship. Today, FY '26, revenue is just under $200 million, nearly 5x larger. And it's not just bigger, it's broader. Today, 41% of our revenues come from outside Australia. Just over half our revenue now comes from outside our reseller agreements with the Lottery Corporation. And for the first time, more than half our EBITDA was generated outside of lottery retailing. 8 years ago, that number was 0. That diversification didn't happen by excellent. It's been central to our strategy for years and is the most important growth avenue we have. FY '26 showed why in an exceptionally soft jackpot year, the group still delivered record underlying EBITDA. So what does Jumbo look like today? The simplest way to think about it is we do 2 things. We sold direct to players a B2C model, and we run and power lotteries for others, a B2B model. On the B2C side, through as lotteries, we're an authorized reseller of Australian lottery tickets with over 700,000 active players. And through Dream Giveaways, we run digital price draws in the U.K. and the U.S.A., where customers can win cars, cash and lifestyle prices with around 1 million active customers between them. So for the first time in our history, Jumbo has more active players overseas than we have in Australia. [ Brad Board ], our Chief Operating Officer, is here today. He oversees the dream businesses, and you're welcome to speak with him and ask him any questions that you may have. On the B2B side, through our Software as a Service business, we licensed the Jumbo Lottery platform to government and charity lottery operators across 11 partners generating $289 million of ticket sales just in Australia. Recently, we won the RSL contract. So adding that, ticket sales will now approach $500 million. Managed Services, which includes [ Gatherwell and Stabile ] in the U.K. and [ Stride ] in Canada run lottery programs, end-to-end for charities and for good causes in those countries. We're fortunate to have Marina with us here today. She's in charge of our Canadian business, and you're welcome to speak with her and ask her any questions over there. What ties all this together is the same thing that has always made Jumbo work, our technology, our digital marketing capability and our focus on responsible play. Every part of the business draws on some or all of those strengths and increasingly, the businesses are learning from each other. A quick look at the numbers, although Sue has covered the headline numbers, I was a record year with underlying EBITDA. Dream Giveaways established itself as our international B2C growth engine with Dream U.K. growing an underlying EBITDA 23% on an annualized basis and Dream U.S. delivering its best result in 5 years. Managed Service contributed $8.4 million of EBITDA, and we repaid $34 million of debt. Since we reported in August, a few things are worth calling out. As I mentioned earlier, the RSL Queensland, Australia's largest charade lottery, is now live on the Jumbo lottery platform, adding around $200 million in ticket sales per year to the platform. In the U.S.A., Dream U.S. is now live on the Jumbo Lottery platform. And for the first time, it has a new app available in the App Store, which should help stimulate sales further. In October, the jackpot drought was far only broken with $100 million Powerball, the first time in over 16 months. More importantly, it's now been followed up with a $50 million and a $60 million [indiscernible] draw which is important for follow-up customers that we've just acquired in the $100 million draw. And as of last night, we also have a [indiscernible] powerball draw to work with so the importance to bring those new customers along with follow-up draws cannot be understated. [indiscernible] continued the on-market share buyback, purchasing around $4.3 million of shares so far this financial year. Now moving to Canada. [indiscernible] has entered into a conditional agreement to acquire Raffle Management Group, a small acquisition that expands our presence in Ontario, which is the most populous province in Canada. Completion is subject to customary conditions and is expected to complete around January 2027. So Raffle Management Group, RMG was founded more than 20 years ago and runs Charity Lotteries with a strong foothold in Ontario. [indiscernible] RMG, highly complementary, bring management expertise and established client relationships. Stride meanwhile, invested in building centers of excellence across marketing, technology, contact center and [indiscernible] provisional part to grow. Together, the businesses provide an opportunity to build on their respective strengths share expertise and further strengthen our Canadian platform. Building on Stride's established leadership and operational capabilities in Canada, we expect RMG to be a strong addition to the group, further advancing our Canadian growth strategy. Turning now to the Australian lottery market, which remains the foundation of our business. Over more than 35 years, Australian lottery sales have grown about 3.4% a year through recession, the GFC and car [indiscernible]. FY '26 tested that again, and even in an exceptionally soft jackpot year, the market held up, which says a lot about how embedded lotteries are in Australian life. [ Vista ] Digital is continuing. Digital penetration reached just under 47% in FY '26 and many comparable markets overseas are already above 50%. So it's quite clear there's still plenty of runway to go. For [indiscernible], that's where our focus stays, making it easy and enrolled for people to play online, keeping it safe and building deeper relationships with our players. The Australian federal government's gambling reforms pass Parliament in August and take effect from 1st of January 2027. We see these reforms as a net positive for Jumbo. They're aimed mainly at wagering and offshore products, and they reinforce the structural advantages that lotteries have. Importantly, the reforms preserve the ability of registered charities and nonprofits to run fundraising lotteries, which benefits Jumbo as well as our charity partners. In FY '26, [ Osloto ] didn't reach $50 million for the first time in 9 years and Powerball didn't reach $100 million for the first time in 5, which is something I've never seen in my career. Big jackpots are very important and it's what brings occasional and first-time players into the market. So the decline in our active players and the new accounts last year is consistent with an exceptionally weak jackpot year in our product mix, which is weighted towards the Powerball and [indiscernible] games. Although we see this as cyclical rather than structural. The first 4 months, however, in FY '27 have been more encouraging. There were 9 large jackpots with a combined division mine price pool of $430 million and that cares with 7 jackpots around $300 million at the same time last year. And as I mentioned earlier, we recently saw $100 million Powerball that finally broke the drought. It's early days, but these are positive signs. Jackpots do move in cycles, and over time, they tend to even out. After one of the softest jackpot periods we've ever seen, I think we're well placed to benefit as the cycle returns. With that backdrop, let me turn to our FY '27 outlook. Today, we're reaffirming the FY '27 guidance we provided in August. For Australia, we expect an underlying EBITDA margin of 46% to 50%. For our international businesses, Dream Giveaway and Managed Services, we expect an underlying EBITDA of $36 million to $40 million up from $30 million in FY '26. As always, jackpot frequency and size and exchange rates are key sensitivities. On the capital management side, our priorities haven't changed, a dividend payout of 30% to 50% of statutory NPAT, a disciplined and opportunistic buyback and continued debt reduction. So let me finish where I started. How far we've come. In FY '18, we're a brand business generating $40 million in revenue. And today, we generated just under $200 million across 4 countries with a meaningful and growing share from our international markets. That's nearly 5x larger. What hasn't changed is what got us here. More than 20 years of lottery experience through every kind of jackpot cycle, plus the technology we built ourselves and over 5 million active players across our platforms around the world. Jumbo always has had a capital-light model and generates strong cash and an experiment team that knows with a disciplined approach so that we know how to use that cash. Finally and most importantly, our people. This year, our team has welcomed new colleagues in the U.K. and the U.S. And it's taken a lot of change while delivering a record underlying result. I'm incredibly proud of them, and I'd like to thank every one of them. I also like to add my personal thanks to Jatin, who will be moving on from Jumbo at the end of this year. For over 5 years, he's been a great partner to me and the business and leader in our finance team in great shape, and I wish him all the best. Thank you to all our partners, our customers and importantly, to you, our shareholders, for your continued support while we go about building Jumbo. I'll now hand back to Sue.

Thanks very much, Mark. I'll now move to the formal parts of the meeting. Shareholders will be asked to consider 5 resolutions set out in the Notice of Meeting dated 8th of October 2026. The poll for each resolution is now open and will close at the at the end of the meeting. The first item of formal business is to receive and consider the company's financial statements and reports for the financial year ended 30 June 2026 as set out in our 2026 annual report. This part of business does not require shareholders to vote on a resolution or to formally adopt the reports. Shareholders or their proxies might comment or ask questions about the financial statements or the reports or about the management of the company. Shareholders or their proxies may also ask questions of our company's auditor, Ernst & Young in relation to the conduct of the audit, the preparation and content of the audit report, accounting policies adopted by the company and the independence of the auditor carrying out the audit. I'll now address questions relating to this item of business or any general business questions. Do you have any questions? If so, please raise your hand and we will arrange for the microphone to be brought to you.

Yes, sir? Just wait for the microphone.

[indiscernible] a bit, but I'll try to. Last year, I came here last year, the first [indiscernible] I actually come to a meeting. And I talked about transparency and how you report to ASX. Usually, most companies only -- what I'm saying is not just a pickup for the Jumbo, but throughout the ASX. I made a suggestion that we should follow -- when we report to the ASX besides just actual numbers of both, there's a percentage. And I said I have made a recommendation that the number of holders should be included for the yes or no vote and so on and because it improves transparency. A lot of people don't realize, but only 4% to 5% of eligible loans actually vote. And I don't think it's increased that much since introduction of electronic voting has happened. So it gives a bit of a picture of who is actually voting. And I'd like -- and I actually left a [indiscernible] last year, but it looks like you people just went over your head.

Well, thank you for your question. It's not a widespread practice but it's something that we're happy to have a look at in the future. What I can tell you is that we have 229 registered shareholders who have voted on the resolutions today. And as I said, we're happy to have a look at whether we report with further granularity for next year.

[indiscernible] number of holders [indiscernible] confirm whether they agree with [indiscernible] let's put it that way.

Your point is well [indiscernible]. Thank you. Any other questions?

Good morning, Sue. Good morning, Board. [ Steve Mabsoname ] representing the ASA today. Thank you very much for your constructive engagement prior to the meeting as always. And and thanks to Mike and you for coming out and talking to retail shareholders as well over the last year. I noticed that our retail shareholders are now holding more than half the company. on the register. And I guess if we take out Mike's significant shareholding, it's more like 2/3. So retail has become pretty important to the company. Mike, you mentioned that Brad might be willing to answer a question, if it's possible. I'd love to hear from Brad a bit more about the Dream Giveaways business, particularly anything that surprised you after the acquisitions? And I guess how you're feeling about the next few years for the 2 trend giveaways businesses in general. Not looking for guidance here. Just just your overall views now that you're heading that up on where you think we might be going with those in the next couple of years, if that's possible.

I'll let Brad take the mic and he is the perfect person to answer that question.

High level, it's been I guess 12 months now. The last AGM, I was remote. I was in Florida. We had just sold Dream Giveaways. And so since that point, we've managed to cover all the integration milestones that we said. And it's been something that we've been working to a structured approach with 3 [indiscernible] of the businesses now been mindful of not ad hoc being sort of systematic kind of get compounding in where we can. So even just the order that we go, we've wanted to achieve similar things but we've done it from different ends, like tech platforms, marketing sort of insights, all that sort of stuff. But what we've sort of seen is that we've had a team that's been willing to cooperate with sort of all requests that we've had. We've had the U.S. team have sort of met everything that's needed to get on to GLP, which has been fantastic. In terms of the data insights the [indiscernible] would ingest all their transactional data into the data warehouse that we've got here we've used for as lotteries, and it's actually been really interesting because we've been able to solve different questions [indiscernible] with all lotteries by looking at through the U.S. lens or the U.K. lens. And so we're really getting those compounding wins that Mike pointed out. And it's really helping sharpen that perspective of the next step and be efficient in our execution, like what you'd see through sort of the financials like we haven't upped our people or anything like that. We've been really sort of disciplined [indiscernible]. And we, as usual, being agile in terms of the teams we've got here. The teams have got there getting more out of them, but just taking a boards the lesson we've had. So really encouraged in terms of like the market size. The U.S., particularly like that's huge. There's a lot to untap there. And our confidence in everything is just as hard as what it was when we bought it more given that we understand more now.

When I first saw the business in the U.S., I came back to Australia and told the team about it. And I said to Brad, you need to come and have a look at this because there's a lot that reminds me about what lotteries was like back in the early days before it really started expanding and Brad came over and we had a second look, and hey guys, you're right, this is exactly what [indiscernible] look like. It was a bit of a bit of a diamond in the rough, needed good software, near good marketing, but the basics were there. And so obviously, Brad's been with me for a long time now over 20 years. So he's gone through the periods of when [indiscernible] lotteries were struggling and now it's doing really well. So he's absolutely the right person to take all the learnings that we've had over the last 20 years, even with all the acquisitions that we've done recently and put them into those businesses, which where we've got a lot of hopes for.

Excellent. Thanks for those insights. I guess my follow-up there, too, would be you've done a wonderful job building capability with the international businesses now. And I'm sure you're sick of answering the question about the TLC agreement. So I'm not going to ask that. What I'd love to know is, do you think you can leverage this international capability now and what you've learned from running price draws and an international business with your relationship with TLC going forward? Like I guess what I'm asking is, would they see some value in what you know now about how to run draws and lotteries around the world? And could that be helpful? As you're talking to a TLC about why they want to keep us as a partner going forward?

Yes, most definitely. I've actually had numerous discussions with [ Wayne ]. [ Wayne ] pick up the CEO for TLC around some of my visions for digital lotteries and what works and what doesn't work. And we've certainly learned a lot about what Dream U.K. have done. They've been wildly successful as well as the U.S. And this provides a new type of slight different land on traditional lotteries, something where it's a bit more product driven. And so we're really -- and they're purely 100% digital. So there's a lot to learn from it. And that's quite clearly where the Australian lottery industry has to go. We're almost at 50% now. It's going to keep on creeping up. And so how these games work in a digital environment is absolutely crucial. So it is something that I think Jumbo is very well respected in this area around the world. We share it with TLC. Next week is the World Lottery Summit once every 2 years, it's in Sydney. I've been invited to talk there about AI use in lotteries, et cetera. So certainly, what we learn over there does help us, not just with the TLC agreement, but with our general standing in the industry.

Thanks for your question, Stephen. Any further questions from the floor? I'll let the gentleman at the back. And we are having questions around the financial statements and reports. At the moment, there will be room for other questions about the other resolutions in a moment.

Kind of related to financial statements, Peter Richardson, shareholder. Last AGM, we spoke about capital management, and you reduced the dividend payout ratio, which I think was directly aligned the amount of debt that you've taken on. Shareholders, we get to see how much you paid in dividends, it's in our bank account. We get to see how many shares you're buying back, and that's been quite a -- very active in buying back shares at lower prices. Are you still focused on reducing debt given the rising interest rate environment.

Can you just repeat the last part of the question, are we still?

Are you still focused on reducing debt in the rising interest rate environment?

Yes, absolutely. As I said in our presentations, we are focused on reducing debt, making sure we have a strong balance sheet and where we can, picking up shares within the share buyback program. So we're actively management -- active capital management is on the agenda every month, and we are laser-focused on it.

Is one of those more -- do you have a focus on 1 of those more than the other? Is it more.

We look at all of them holistically. And -- and as communicated in the presentation, capital management is a very important focus of ours. Giovanni, who's online, Chair of our Audit and Risk [indiscernible], anything further you'd like to comment on that item?

Thanks Sue, and thanks for the question. Yes, I mean, we've got numerous levers that we pull in terms of capital management. And as Sue has indicated, we look at that very closely. We look at it from a valuation perspective as well. What is -- adds greater value to us? Is it paying down debt quicker? Is it buying shares on market. And obviously, M&A is always a lens that we look at in terms of what kind of acquisitions can we do that add to the few from a shareholder perspective. So it is one of the most important areas that the Board and the audit committee looks at on a continuous basis with management.

And you'll note that our payout ratio was at 49 -- 49.5% was the highest part of our 30% to 50% ratio. So we are conscious that we have retail shareholders of serving dividends, and we actively put it as close to the top of the ratio as we could whilst we're still paying down debt. Do we -- there was another question, Yes, sir?

[ Victor Belcorp ], shareholder. I read that the U.S. is also having a low jackpot run it's not just Australia. And I read that potentially, I'm wondering if the Board or might considers the theory around potential increase in the power around AI, somehow gaming the system in a way that's leading to this lower jackpot run.

It's not something I've heard, but I'll let Mike answer the question.

Yes. No, not really. AI is impacting lotteries in many ways, but it's not gaming the system. It's fundamentally quite a simple game. It's actually designed that way so that one person doesn't have an advantage over the next person. It's just purely down to luck. What it does is just shows -- just highlights that this is how lotteries work. They operate cyclically this period of large jackpots that we've just gone through, people are asking me, is it broken what's going on? I'm like, this is just how lotteries work. That's what makes them exciting because you just never know when the next jackpot comes in. And so when it hits $100 million or $150 million, people generally go out there and they take advantage of it while it's there because they just don't know when the next time it's going to come. And yes, you get great periods where you might get a lot of big jackpots like we had 4 or 5 years ago and you have vice versa, but what you find is that they all end up in the middle, at the end of the day. But yes, look, it's -- everybody naturally wants to know is something broken, but lotteries have been around for a long time, centuries in some countries. So there's nothing new about it. And in the era of AI there'll be some changes, but fundamentally, they're going to stay the same.

Can I just do a quick follow-up costs? I was just curious because the U.S. is having a similar sort of thing. So just maybe coincidence. Just a follow-up on that is with the product review that TLC are doing next year, is that something that will be part of the framework that you consider? And can you shed a bit of color on what the product review might look like? I think you've given a little bit in terms of making it more interactive and -- but just any color you can shed on the product review and how that might benefit us.

Yes. Look, particularly the top 2 games, Powerball and [indiscernible]. They've been a staple for Australia for a long, long time. But they are all games that were invented before the Internet even before AI and all of this. So they're fundamentally going to be around, but they do need to adapt with the times. Hard for me to say exactly what this is going to look like when it finally hits the market. It still has to go through game development and like I said earlier, I give TLC my views. They listen to me quite a lot. They've got to go through regulation and everything. So nobody really knows exactly what they'll look like. But it boils down to engagement, how do you engage players, how do you keep people interested in the games. The recent federal gaming review has made it clear that the government wants to curtail things like sports betting offshore lotteries, things like that, which it doesn't particularly support. While it does want to support lotteries because they're just so fundamental to Australia and it's controlled in the right manner, et cetera, et cetera. So it's good to have the government behind you. But the wheels have changed do move slowly and for good reason often to make sure everything is done correctly. So look, I think the gains will come out. There'll be a lot more engaging. It's a new kind of cohort of players coming up. They're a lot younger, they're a lot more digitally savvy. And this is exactly where Jumbo has shown over the years because we understand that cohort pretty well.

Thanks for your question. Do we have any further questions before we move on? Yes, sir.

Sorry, this is a large capital management but probably standing a bit of the history like [indiscernible].

You just popped the microphone up so that Giovanni can hear you.

Apparently in America, on market buybacks is an American trend, and it seemed to be introduced into Australia and it's getting entrenched. And what worries sorry, I get a bit even in America, the regulators have been looking at it because they recoat it favors the richer pile and not the smaller shareholders. And I've got the little comments here and but they're still debate over when it's actually doing. But I used your AI to see how it's a handle. One thing it doesn't work. I'm a bit of fear, let's put it this way. electronic federal for years. And I tried to ask your AI to give me a report of between 22% and 26% on to shares that were allocated to Mike and employees and all that and the shares that were allocated to Daydream U.K. and it doesn't work. You have to do it individually, [indiscernible] individual. And what came up is between '22 and '26 nothing's changed. Basically, the range of holders, everything is still the same. And basically, that is my confirmation that most of the transaction when it comes to on-market transaction is basically the top end of the people that participate they basically above the 5,000, not the smaller shareholders.

Pokay. Well, thank you for tinkering with our AI bot within it. [indiscernible] can probably answer the question better than I, but it's probably because it's related to that set of financial accounts and not the last 5, so I wouldn't do a cumulative result. So I put you on the spot there, [indiscernible]. Okay, we won't go into any further detail. Our buyback as long as share buybacks remain part of the corporate governance processes in Australia, we will continue to use it where we can. We do use it in a very disciplined way, but we also use it in an opportunistic way to protect the share price when it's low. Giovanni, any further comments around this gentleman's question.

[indiscernible] shareholder not allocate money for the [indiscernible] and just pay off debt.

Sure. Giovanni?

Yes. Thanks, and thanks for the question. Ultimately, just going back to what I said previously, we have different levers. I think in terms of a share buyback, it is a very, very important lever from a capital management perspective because what it does is you're effectively buying back shares at a lower value to what the intrinsic value that you believe your share will be valued at. And what that basically does is it increases the EPS or earnings per share for existing shareholders. it increases the dividends available to them because obviously, you're paying certain cash out on a lower share base. And so it benefits all shareholders. It definitely doesn't benefit large institutional shareholders because what you do is when you go in on market, you are buying shares, you're not buying shares from individuals, you're not buying shares from institutions, you're buying from the market. So it is very much market dynamics in action completely. So yes, I mean, we always look at it, and we think share buybacks are very important in our capital management approach.