KEI Industries Limited (517569) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the KEI Industries Q4 and FY '20 results update hosted by Edelweiss Securities Limited. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Amit Mahawar from Edelweiss Securities Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Good morning, everybody. We welcome you all to KEI results conference call today. We have with us the top management of KEI, represented by Mr. Anil Gupta, Chairman and Managing Director; and Mr. Rajeev Gupta, Executive Director, Finance. We will start with a brief opening remarks by the management, post which we'll have a brief Q&A session. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Gupta.

Yes. Good morning, friends. I'm Anil Gupta, Chairman, KEI Industries Limited. Welcome to this conference call of KEI for Q4 as well as financial year '19/'20 financial year results. So during the fourth quarter of -- standalone financials for fourth quarter. During the fourth quarter of financial year '19/'20, the company has achieved a net sales of INR 1,258 crore against same quarter in the previous year, almost similar sale of INR 1,258 crore. There was no growth as compared to corresponding period last year. It was due to lockdown announced by the government, resulting into no sale for last 10 days of the quarter ending -- ended March 31, 2020. The EBITDA during the quarter was INR 123 crores against previous year INR 141 crores. The profit -- however, the profit after tax during this quarter was INR 60.85 crore against INR 59.93 crore in the same period last quarter. Profit after tax/net sales is 4.84% against 4.76% in the last year. During the whole of the financial year '19/'20, the company recorded a net sales of INR 4,884.274 crore against INR 4,227 crore in '18/'19. So the growth in net sales is 15.55% over last year same period. EBITDA achieved is INR 512.5 crore against INR 449 crore in the same period last year. So the growth in EBITDA is 14%. Profit after tax during '19/'20 was INR 255 crore against INR 181.87 crore in the same period in '18/'19. So the PAT has grown by 40.26% as against last year same period. Profit margin has improved by -- to 4-point -- sorry, the profit margin has improved to 5.22% as compared to 4.3% of the net sales in the same period. Now the volume growth in the cable dividend during the year is 18% as compared to last year same period. So during the whole of the financial year, the institutional sales of the cable has grown by 31% as compared to last year same period. So we achieved INR 2,621 crore, this includes the export sales as well against INR 2,002 crore in the same period last year. The sales during the fourth quarter of 2019/'20 through our dealer network was INR 321 crore as compared to INR 405 crore of the last year same period. So it was declined due to economic conditions as well as a substantial sale through the dealer network comes in the last 10 days of the month, that is the normal routine practice, and due to lockdown, that sales was sacrificed. So the overall sales through the dealer distribution network was INR 1,413 crore in '19/'20 as compared to INR 1,400 crore in the last year same period. So it was almost -- just grew by 1%. The total active working dealers of the company as on today is 1,650. During the fourth quarter -- during the financial year '19/'20, the sales of extra high-voltage cable was INR 435 crore against INR 189 crore in the whole of '18/'19. So the growth in extra high-voltage cable sale is approximately 130% as compared to last year. During financial year '19/'20, the sales from EPC division was INR 764 crore. This is apart from the cable sales to our EPC division against INR 730 crore during the same period last year. So the pending orders as of today. This is on March 31?

No, at -- as on.

That pending orders as on today. I'm not saying of March 31, but as on today, is INR 3,260 crore, out of which EPC pending orders are INR 1,233 crore. Extra high-voltage cable, turnkey projects, INR 747 crore. The cables INR 1,116 crore, and exports stand-alone cable INR 164 crore. But if we include the export of -- export orders of EPC against Asian Development Bank funded projects, it is close to INR 400 crores. So the total is INR 3,260 crore orders pending as on today on -- as on June 1. The company has achieved a landmark order first time for 400 kV voltage grade of extra high-voltage cables last week from Tamil Nadu Transmission Corporation Limited for a value of around INR 150 crores. With the receipt of 400 kV extra high-voltage cable order, company has achieved another milestone and has placed KEI amongst the few -- just 5, 6 international players in this industry, having achieved this milestone to manufacture and supply cable for 400 kV voltage -- underground cable for 400 kV voltage grade. Now the financial charges -- on stand-alone basis, the financial charges of the company in the fourth quarter is INR 27.66 crore as against INR 42.29 crore in the same period last year. So the financial charges has come down to 2.2% of the sales in the fourth quarter as against 3.36% of our net sales last year. On a full year basis, the financial charges has been INR 129 crore as compared to INR 136 crore. So as in percentage terms, it has reduced to 2.64% from 3.22% of net sales. It is important to mention that company did a qualified institutional -- institutions placement of INR 500 crore during January 2020 at a price of INR 500, so -- at a premium of INR 498. So the share capital of the company has increased from INR 15.9 crore, comprising of 7.95 crore shares -- equity shares to INR 17.9 crore comprising of 8.95 crore share -- equity shares. The proceeds of the QIP has been utilized as for the objects of the issue, such as repayment or prepayment of debts, meeting working capital requirements and general corporate purposes, the details of which has been given in the press release. So consequent to QIP, the book value per equity share of the company now stands at INR 168.34 as on March 31, 2020, as against INR 98.69 as on March 31, 2019. During the full year, the company has incurred a total expenditure of INR 5.82 crore in financial year '19/'20 towards CSR activities, including the INR 2 crore contributed to PM Care Fund for COVID-19 paid during end of March 2020. Now I would like to brief about the cash flow position. The -- during the -- even during the lockdown period of April 2020, we recovered a cash flow of INR 194 crore during April '20, out of which more than INR 102 crore was recovered from turnkey projects segment from the various government utilities. And the cash flow from cables -- cash inflow from cables was INR 69.85 crore. Similarly, in May 2020, the cash inflow was INR 270 crores, making it a total of INR 454 crore during April and May, which is more than the sales achieved during this period. So we are cash surplus in last 2 months at -- even after this -- due to this lockdown. So thank you very much. I would like now you to ask any questions what you may like to ask. Thank you very much.

[Operator Instructions] We have the first question from the line of Ashwini Agarwal from Ashmore.

So I'd like to get a sense on what are you seeing in terms of business prospects at this time in the 3 buckets. One is, of course, the dealer-driven sales, then your institutional cable sales and on the EPC side, how are you seeing business outlook? And I mean you made a comment that the combined sales over April and May were probably less than INR 500 crores. So could you give us a sense on how we should look at the current financial year?

See, you are aware that April was all nearly 0. So the -- it is the sales whatever is achieved in last 2 months, a very small sale in the last 4, 5 days of April, and balance is in May. So there was a substantial sale of -- towards exports during May, and also sales to the -- sales of cables to various institutional customers. Although the sales through the dealer network has been slow even in the May mainly because the -- across the country, dealers were closed. So the industrial unit started operating from first week of May in our -- mostly in our -- at 50% level in our -- in Rajasthan and Silvassa factories. But the dealers started operating only partially in -- that to in some parts of the country barring bigger cities from 10th or 12th of May, or mostly, I should say only from 15th of May. But we have -- still we have achieved a decent sale from the dealer network in the 15 days of the May as well. So it is really, at the moment, difficult to judge the forward guidance for -- from this. But considering our very strong order book from exports as well as institutional customers, we believe that we will -- the company will be doing better than the industry average and even in the large industry average, and we should be -- we should try to achieve -- I mean, I don't know, little bit shrinking, maybe fall possible, but we'll try to achieve as much as what we have achieved last year. But it is very difficult to comment at the moment as the days grows and what we will see in the COVID situation and how the governments will be acting in movement of people and movement of goods. So we have to watch for another 1 to 2 months to give a real true guidance.

Sir, what are you seeing on the EPC side, especially with all this reverse migration of labor. Are you facing issue doing the work on the EPC side? I know April was tough, but have you seen any improvement in May? Or it is still all in a state of suspension?

No. We have seen a significant improvement in May. And all our sites have started wherever we are working, and we have achieved very good progress. We have also closed the 3, 4 projects physically as during May, and with very dedicated contractors at our command. And we are very focused on paying contractors immediately upon submission of their bills. So they are very loyal to us. So we have not seen any constrain on account of labor in any of our sites throughout the country.

And sir, last question is in line of this COVID uncertainty and what's going on. I mean you had plans to put up a new facility in Western India. What's the status on that? Are you going slow or you're going -- progressing as before?

No. No, we are going slow. So the conditions will be -- so we have just deferred the matter for reconsideration for 6 months. So we'll be reviewing the situation in October. And after seeing the economic conditions and the business environment, we'll be going -- we'll be taking a decision to go forward for the new CapEx.

And the land, which was under investigation for -- in the sense for acquiring, has that been acquired or not really?

No, not, not. But we had identified number of lands, and we were in the negotiation stage. But -- and like -- we would have finalized it by -- in April but due to this lockdown now, this is -- this was -- this could not be done. And now we have decided that we should defer the fixed investment for at least 3, 4 months, and we'll review the situation in October.

The next question is from the line of Lavina Quadros from Jefferies.

Yes. Just wanted to understand how is the payment cycle shaping up with clients, especially the institutional front? I mean are they delaying, and will you'll also delay your projects accordingly? Or how are you looking at that right now?

There's no denying the fact that the payments, substantial payments were -- which were due to come in end of March in last 10 days, could not come, but we recovered a good amount of money in April and May. But however, a lot of payments are delayed because of the nonrelease of payments due to lockdown by various customers, various utilities to the contracting companies and also having a consequent effect on the dealers as well as the contractors. So -- but all the export payments which were due, they are coming on due dates. So we have not seen any slowdown in that.

Okay. And sir, this is more on the interest charges for Rajeev, sir. What is the split of your interest cost for the year between bank charges and others?

You can note down the figures. The whole year, the working capital interest was INR 58 crore, including the term loan interest of INR 14.4 crore. And the LC interest was INR 26 crores. Bank charges was the close to -- on LC was the INR 10.3 crores. Bank charges on the bank guarantee was INR 13.18 crore. Bank charge -- other bank charges, that is the processing fee, INR 6.9 crore.

The next question is from the line of Achal Lohade from JM Financial.

Yes. Can you help us with the volume growth in your cables and stainless steel wires segments, please, for the fourth quarter as well as full year?

The volume growth during the full year is 18% for the cables. And...

In cable, the fourth quarter volume growth is close to 9%.

Okay. And wire? Stainless steel wire?

And wire, for full year, it is 18%. And stainless steel?

Stainless steel, very minor sales. So they are not...

I think...

I will communicate stainless steel wire in the subsequent part through Amit Mahawar. Right now, I'm not having the figure of stainless steel wire in the volume term.

No problem. Sir, could you also help us with respect to the distribution-wise revenue breakup? Just wanted to understand how the dealer sales are -- the growth has been for the fourth quarter in terms of reported numbers? And how much would have been the lost sales actually because of the lockdown?

So you want the -- Anilji has already...

I have already said that in fourth quarter, the sales through dealer network was INR 321 crore as compared to INR 405 crore in the fourth quarter of last year. In the -- for the full year, the sales through distribution -- dealer distribution network was INR 1,413 crore as compared to INR 1,400 crore for the full year in '19/'20.

And -- sorry, I missed that part. In terms of export?

Sorry, INR 1,400 crore in '18/'19 and INR 1,413 crore in '19/'20.

And export was INR 899 crore as compared to INR 531 crore last year.

I suppose that is for the quarter. And what about full year, sir?

No, just full year, INR 899 crores.

For '19/'20.

For the quarter, it is INR 252 crore is export against the INR 141 crore export.

250?

INR 252 crore.

Understood. Understood. And with respect to the outlook in terms of the number of distributor dealers you have and what kind of increase you're looking at? And would it be possible to also kind of indicate what is the mix in terms of regions, like North, West, South, East, et cetera for the dealer sales?

Total dealer distributor is close to 1,650. And every year, we are increasing close to 8% to 10%, every year in number of dealers. So this year, we have grown by 13% in number of dealers. And all across the region the split is not available right now, but I will give you the split. But all across the region, we are adding the dealer distributor network. It is not the case that we are adding in 1 particular region, in each and every region...

And of the country.

Yes.

Right. And just last...

Sorry, sir. May I request you to please return to the queue for any follow-up questions.

No problem.

The next question is from the line of Ankur Sharma from HDFC Life.

A couple of questions. One, while you mentioned the export sales at about INR 899 crores for last year. Sir, how much was Dangote out of this in FY '20? And how much is still left to be supplied? Would be the first question. And second, what would be your outlook on the export side in terms of either new geographies or new customers for FY '21?

What was Dangote figure?

INR 340 crore.

The total sales to Dangote in last financial year was INR 340 crore, and left over is around INR 110 crores, the -- which is to be done in April, May and June. So in this quarter, it will be finished. We have a substantial export market in Australia, Middle East. And through many international EPC contractors, we are selling to many oil and gas projects in Africa, in Latin America as well. I mean we have never been dependent on just Dangote, Dangote was a -- of course, a very prestigious and big order. But we do not expect a very significant fall in the export sales in spite of not having anything from Dangote like order -- big order in one go. So even in '18/'19, our export was around INR 400 crore -- INR 500 crore...

INR 531 crore.

INR 531 crore. And this year, it is around INR 900 crore. So we should see, I mean, a reasonable figure in export also this year as well in spite of not having an order like Dangote.

Okay. So just a follow-up would be, sir, given weak oil prices and we are hearing about pretty much everybody cutting CapEx targets for this year, in the Middle East or possibly also in Africa, you still see a healthy pipeline, is what we should understand?

See, whatever orders this year will be executed, this is for ongoing projects. So if a project has already started and in the middle of the execution, whatever may be the oil price, it will not stop. It may be possible that future projects may be post -- deferred or postponed, which may affect the sale in subsequent years. But not this -- at least this financial year because the project -- these orders are from the project which are -- which we are -- which are already under construction and cannot be stopped.

But oil prices also has corrected.

Oil prices have corrected a lot. It is -- it has already reached $35 a barrel, which is, I can say [Foreign Language] which is still 25%, 30% lesser than the earlier average, but still it has corrected a lot.

Understood. Okay. And sir, just the last question would be on the demand from the domestic side. So while I understand you saw a very wide range of customers across sectors, oil and gas, metros, telecom, et cetera, hospitals, a lot of that. But in your view, a, are you seeing any delays or pushbacks from those customers in terms of deliveries? So you may not be supplying directly but through your dealers or the EPC contractors. So a, are you seeing these guys asking you to delay or defer supplies? And b -- sorry...

I think maximum by 1 month, not more than that.

Okay. Because they don't have -- they're not prepared to accept or maybe they are trying to get their sites up and running, is that -- would that be the right reason because of that or...

Correct. Correct. Because when the sites are not running and they are not ready to receive the material, so that is the only delay.

Okay. Okay. So just a month or so, which is fine, right. I mean given larger-size projects. Okay. Okay. And sir, in your view, which segments -- if you had to take a 1-year view, which segments will be the first to bounce back, which end markets in that would be a first to come back to normal, if you had to kind of point out 3 or 4 of those larger segments or end markets?

See at the moment, we have substantial orders from metro projects. Then there are lot of projects which were underway for fertilizer project expansion in India and also refineries upgradation and refinery expansions in Indian Oil, HPCL, BPCL, these are the projects plus railways and wind and solar projects. I don't know, wind and solar, we are yet to see that how -- there may be delays by another 2, 3 months in those projects due to this lockdown. But I don't see any problem in metros, fertilizers, refineries, they are on the track. And we are still being pursued by the customers. And also, we are executing very large orders for Nuclear Power Corporation of India for Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project, where there is no impact.

Understood. And sir, could you also share the acceptances number as of March if sir, could provide that, please?

Sir, repeat your question, sir.

Can you, please, repeat the question, please?

The acceptances, the number on acceptances, which is a part of rate paid.

Just a minute.

That's all from my side.

Acceptance is close to INR 770 crore for this year.

Okay. Got that.

The next question is from the line of Charanjit Singh from DSP Mutual Fund.

And I think company has posted good set of numbers in a very tough environment. So one thing, sir, from the receivables front, if you can just help us understand from which kind of customers these are pending dues, as you highlighted that there is some recovery, which is happening in April. But overall, how do you see the payables cycle panning out in FY '21?

See, so far as cable sales are concerned, I think all our receivables are intact, and we are getting the payments in time. There were some delays from the EPC customers because the offices were not working. But I'm confident that in -- during this financial year, our working capital cycle will improve and means it will go down.

And sir, from overall end market perspective, so we have a housing and wire segment and the cable segment. So if you can just give some outlook in terms of that growth trajectory for both these segments, because one is more dependent on the residential real estate or the real estate segment and the other is dependent on the infrastructure spending by government. So how do you see both these segments doing going forward? Maybe in the second half, do you see pickup or real estate remaining weak and get impacted on the housing wire front? So both cables and wires outlook trajectory, sir.

Yes. This year, the -- definitely, the sale -- cables will do very strong and very much -- far better as compared to wires, which is going to real estate segment. Because wherever we are selling the wires to government projects or ongoing civil projects of like hospitals of ESI or projects of NBCC, National Building Construction Corporation or metros, there is no slowdown. The contractors have taking -- have started taking the products. But real estate is slow. I think we should be able to do some guesswork from June onwards, it is at the moment. But the sales from B and C cities, the smaller cities has picked up even in the May. We have seen a strong lifting of wires from -- by the dealers from B and C cities barring the metro cities. So the larger projects have not picked up, maybe because the all -- most of the larger cities are still under lockdown.

And sir, on the EHV front, we have started getting some orders in the 400 kV side, which is a very consolidated market. So what are the prospects there? There are like very few players. And how is the -- what are the tender size is like? And what's the market opportunity in 400 kV? Yes. That's all from my side.

See, there is a -- I mean I can tell you, the order which in India, there are only 2 companies in this segment, KEI and Universal Cables. In this tender, which we won INR 150 crore order, this was almost a INR 900 crore worth of tender. But substantial portion of INR 500 crore went to a Korean company. In future, now we are working very hard with all the government utilities to put in Make in India clause in the tenders. So that the business remains in India. And when we have the capability to manufacture, this range of product, why import. And I think the relevant ministries are acting on it. And we should be able to get it through. There should -- there will be a gradual growth in demand in 400 kV cable segment even in the transmission -- underground transmission segment as well as the hydro power project segment. So thus, this is the future, and this will be a substantial future. And company will be benefited out of it. You have seen that last year, our EHV sales is grown by 130% from INR 189 crore to INR 435 crore. So this year also, there will be -- I won't say that this year, the sales are likely to remain or grow by 10% to 20% in EHV segment because of the sentiments and the COVID situation. But this segment is going to grow substantially.

The next question is from the line of Rita Tahilramani from Invesco Mutual Fund.

Sir, while you've highlighted the fact in terms of working capital improvement also. But could you help us understand the execution time line for the INR 1,200 crore EPC project has also almost INR 750 crores of EHV projects. So is it that due to challenges in terms of receivables, will you slow down in terms of execution? Could you just give us a sense on that?

We generally do a total sale of EPC INR 1,000 crore, out of which close to INR 308 crore is the cable and INR 700 crore is the EPC portion. So because we have the INR 1,200 crore order book position, which is almost for 1.5-year position. So we are always doing only in this range of EPC.

But extra voltage -- in case of extra high-voltage cables...

It is increasing.

It is increasing. And in this, the 70% of the cost of the project is only cables. So execution portion and 10% is other materials like jointing kits and accessories, but -- and rest is the execution portion. So there is -- this is purely EHV when I say that we have a order book of INR 774 crore, so out of which 70% to 75% is only the cost of the cables, which is our own manufacturing.

So is it fair to assume that this entire project -- so this EHV INR 700 crores will almost be executed in the current year, let's say?

No. Normally, these projects take -- smaller projects are executed within 9 to 10 months, but larger projects like 400 kV, it will take 18 months. It is -- it takes time because the ground clearances, the document clearances by the customers, the ROW permissions from the local authorities. So due to that, it takes time. Otherwise, we can execute these projects within 6 months.

Okay. So what is the breakup of your long-term, also short-term projects within the INR 750 crores of order book?

Most of the projects are for 18 to 24 months.

Okay. Okay. And in terms of -- in this tough times, are we looking at a theme of incremental orders in both EPC as well as EHV side?

EHV, as sir has said that we have the order book position for this financial year as well as for next. In EPC also, whatever we are having close to INR 1,200 crore order book position, it is sufficient for almost 17, 18 months time.

No. But it doesn't mean that -- we will be bidding for the tenders, which benefits us, which are of our lines. And we -- since we are not dependent on this industry, so we only bid a reasonably good price, and we don't compete just for the sake of the order. So this is -- that is the reason that we are doing controlled business in EPC and with a better cash flows and better margins.

Sure. And just one last question. What was the housing wire capacity utilization pre COVID?

Pre-COVID, our Silvassa was almost 100% and then -- and the...

Up fully.

Yes. And the new plant was Chinchpada. So that was only 10% utilized before COVID.

The next question is from the line of Ashwini Agarwal from Ashmore.

Yes. Sorry, I was on mute. I had a couple of follow-up questions. One is with the deferral of the CapEx by 6 months, is there a risk that March '22 also turns out to be a very slow growth here because your capacity constrained? Because I was under the impression that you don't have much spare capacity left.

See, in cables, we could have grown by more than -- around 15% from the level of '19/'20, we had that capacity. And in wires, since we have already constructed our Chinchpada plant, which -- and it is completed now, so we have more than doubled our capacity of what we had in '19/'20 from the Rakholi. So that plant can produce close to 7 -- INR 80 crore to INR 90 crore of production a month. But at the moment, it is not being utilized because of the -- after the COVID. So we are just producing in our original Rakholi plant in Silvassa. So we have the substantial capacity already available in the house wire and flexible segment. And around INR 500 crore to INR 600 crore growth capacity available in cable segment also. And definitely by doing better production efficiencies and debottlenecking, we will try to improve the spare capacity by another 5% in the same plants. So we have the growth potential available in FY '22. Even if we do not do any CapEx and -- or we defer the CapEx by 5, 6 months. And this is the -- at the moment, it is logical to conserve cash instead of doing CapEx. And once we are really certain about the markets and situation of economic situation, then only we should go forward for the CapEx. I think I mean, you will agree with us for that.

No, fair enough. The second thing is that are you sort of -- we've heard several companies relooking at all their costs in certain cases, reducing ad spend or reducing overheads in some extreme cases, some pay cuts as well. Are there any cost side management that is being considered by KEI?

Yes. We are also looking at all our overheads, even the manpower placed in all the departments. And rationalizing them, relocating them to the newer positions. So far as ad spends are concerned, we have taken a conscious decision to not to do any much ad spending in the first 6 months of this financial year. And in September, we'll review whether to do further ad spends in this -- in October onwards. But for first 6 months, we are not doing any ad spend, which used to be substantial. We are looking at every cost in the company, like all other organizations to make the company really viable and profitable.

And the last question is that you mentioned that you add roughly about 10%, 12% to your dealer count each year. I assume that's on a net basis because some people probably go out of the system as well. We are hearing a significant amount of stress in the MSME space, and dealers with no revenues almost for 2 months and overheads in terms of printers and employees, et cetera. I don't know. I mean are you worried that you might see a higher turnover in your dealer base because of the financial difficulties being faced by them. How are you thinking about these risks?

See, we are very conscious about the -- we are reviewing the financial positions of the dealer regularly and now along with our marketing person, our financial -- commercial people are also meeting the dealers and understanding, and we are also limiting their credit limits and not taking a very big exposure on any particular entity. So -- and also not trying hard pushed sales to the dealers, so as not to increase our credit exposure to them. So it is -- we are really conscious that it is better to achieve -- to do lesser sales than increasing the credit exposure to the dealers, which are small.

Have you seen any sticky receivables from individual dealers? Is there risk of elevated credit cost from that?

Not yet. But some of the dealers have gone for a deferment of 1 to 2 months moratorium in the channel finance, so which we have agreed. Because we also know that they have not been receiving payments from their back end.

The next question is from the line of Sanjay Dam from Old Bridge Capital.

Yes, sir. I had two questions. One is that when you talk about possible squeeze on the top line, just correct me if I'm wrong, you are looking at the housing wire segment and the EPC segment. Is the understanding correct?

EPC segment, I have mentioned that we have a good order book position. And we are very conscious in bidding for EPC projects, wherever we are very confident about the funding and they are funded projects, we are going ahead. So far as housing wire is concerned, I'm not very bullish about this year, but I'm positive. Because ultimately, the product what we are selling is going across to various government projects of public works department of the states or government-funded projects, hospitals and buildings constructed by this National Building Construction Corporation or airports. Also, we are supplying these wires to panel manufacturers who use these panel wires in the panel manufacturing. We are also selling wires and winding wires to agriculture sector, which is very buoyant. And we have seen a very substantial sales of winding wires in May because it was a sowing season and it will continue for next 4 months as well. But -- and also, I'm very bullish about the house wire sales in B and C category or D category cities. Of course, in A category cities, it may remain flat or even it may decline to the larger multi-storage projects or even to the commercial real estate also may slow down in this year.

Sir, the second question was that, did I also understand correct when you said that the working capital by the end of the year, would -- by the end of the year FY '21, would be -- would revert to normalized level of what you did at the end of FY '19? Would that be a current assumption to make?

[Foreign Language] Yes, Sanjay, [Foreign Language] so that is mainly because of the [Foreign Language].

[Foreign Language] which would have given a decent 11%, 12% growth in Q4, but which could not happen in -- due to the lockdown in last 10 days of the March. So due to [Foreign Language].

Right, sir. So basically, going ahead, your payables will also -- like, Rajeevji, you said that your payables reduced and your receivables increased. So when you get your money back, so receivable days will also normalize and payables will also possibly revert back to a normalized level. So when we look at the working capital at the end of FY '21 or maybe at the end of first half of FY '21, it will be familiar to the numbers that we have seen at the end of FY '19, would that be a good understanding?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And -- yes. And finally, the last question is that when I look at your product mix that you see, so to an earlier question, you said that you are not constrained for FY '22 growth, which is a good thing, and you will review the CapEx in another 3, 4 months. In FY '21, when I look at the product mix between house wires, cables and exports. So exports, I understand, will not possibly go up much from what you -- you had a fantastic year in FY '20. So FY '21 exports may not go up much. Maybe house wires will decline and cables will grow, institutional cables, EHV will grow. What will it do to your margins, sir, in that changed mix?

The margin, more or less, there may be 0.5% vary because of the fixed cost between these 2 months. But otherwise, it will remain same.

You see that remaining same?

Only -- yes. Only to that extent, it may hit. Because now the -- in this financial year, our interest cost will go down further from here. So somewhere it will exceed, but somewhere, it will go down. So ultimately, the cash profit, we will be able to achieve.

And one last...

Sorry, sir, I would request you to please return to the queue for any follow-up questions. The next question is from the line of Manish Mahawar from Edelweiss.

Manish Agarwall here. Sir, just one housekeeping question. Basically, our order for EPC, order backlog is around INR 1,200 crores, and we target around INR 1,000 crores of revenue per year. So sir, basically, we received some orders around INR 200 crores this year. So do we have that kind of a -- or basically...

Manishji?

Yes, sir.

Manishji in EPC division, the current year sale is close to INR 1,300 crores, which include EHV, EPC also. So again, the -- in this year, EHV, EPC is more because we are doing the EPC wherein the more and more the cable component are there. Because we do the EPC for making the profit and selling our cable as a forward integration. So if the distribution products are not there, we are compensating through the extra high-voltage EPC.

Sir, my question was more on the order inflow perspective. So math around INR 1,000 crores of revenues basically, we will need around INR 800 crores of -- for '22 also if we need INR 1,000 crore revenue, we will need some INR 800 crores to INR 1,000 crores of order inflow this year also. So do we have that kind of outlook in this scenario that we can get that kind of an order inflow, including EPC and EHV?

I think that, that outlook is there. And I think we should be able to get that kind of inflow in the order book.

The next question is from the line of Rita Tahilramani from Invesco Mutual Fund.

Sir, we mentioned that our working capital will normalize in the current year. And we are also deferring the CapEx plan. So in that case, could you help us understand what could be the debt number be at the end of the year?

If we are not doing the CapEx, then the debt number will be closer to INR 300 crore, not more than INR 300 crore or maybe INR 250 crore.

Okay. Okay. Okay. And secondly, so if you're not doing the CapEx, could you help us understand what could be the maximum revenue you can go from the current capacity for the cable division?

INR 5,700 crore.

INR. 5,700 crores overall?

Wire or whole?

No. No. From the cable, I'm asking, only from the cable business.

So out of which you remove the INR 1,000 crore, so INR 4,700 crore from the manufacturing front.

We will be taking the last question from the line of Sanjay Dam from Old Bridge Capital.

Sir, so out of the INR 500 crore that you raised, sir, Rajeevji, INR 400 crore has been paid back -- loans of INR 400-odd crore has been repaid or prepaid, out of the INR 500 crore that you raised?

Right, sir.

Okay. Okay. And -- okay. So out of that sum, that would obviously be working capital that you may or -- you may raise later?

Sir, close to INR 139 crore, we have paid term loan. And balance, we had INR 258 crore, INR 259 crore, we had paid the working capital loan.

I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Amit Mahawar from Edelweiss Securities for his closing comments.

Yes. Sir, just one last question, if I can. Can you just share the breakup of segments into house wire, LT actually for Q4 and for FY '20? And that would be all.

Yes, sure. You can note down Amitji. First, I will tell the Q4 number. Low tension power cable Q4 is INR 592 crore, and for full year is INR 2,041 crore. High tension power cable Q4 number is INR 134 crore, and full year number is INR 673 crore. Extra high-voltage power cable is INR 127 crore and INR 435 crore. House wire is INR 190 crore and INR 850 crore. Stainless steel wire for the quarter is INR 40 crore and full year is INR 137 crore. EPC other than cable is -- quarter is INR 186 crore, and full year is INR 764 crore. So these are the numbers.

Okay. Do you have any closing comments, sir?

So thank you very much for your valuable time for this investors conference call. I can reassure you that the company's business is intact. In spite of the COVID uncertain situation, I can emphasize that we will do better than the -- our fellow other industries in the same business and in the same line of business. And our EBITDA and profitability will be maintained. We have very strong order book, and we have very strong customer base in foreign countries, in exports, in many other countries, and it is growing every year. So the company has a -- we have a very, very positive outlook for KEI in times to come. And we'll also be improving our financials in terms of cash flows and debt reduction, which is our motto. So if you have any further questions, you may reach back to us. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Amitji, and thank you all.

Thank you very much, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Edelweiss Securities, that concludes this conference call. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.