Kendrion N.V. (KENDR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everybody, here in the Novotel and on the webcast. Welcome to Kendrion's Capital Markets Day 2024. My name is Joep van Beurden, Kendrion's CEO, and with me are Jeroen Hemmen, Kendrion CFO; Olaf Detlef, who heads our Industrial Brake unit; Robert Lewin, leading our Industrial Actuators and Controls Group; and Telly Kuo, President of Kendrion Asia and responsible for our operations in China. Almost exactly 2 years ago, September 8, 2022, at the tail end of the COVID pandemic, we discussed the progress we have made towards our strategy and the related financial targets for 2025. Well, in today's world, 2 years is a long time. Today, we are here to present a new Kendrion, a Kendrion that is no longer active in both the automotive and the industrial markets, and that will continue its business as a pure-play industrial company, a Kendrion that will focus exclusively on opportunities within our Industrial Brakes and Industrial Actuators and Controls business groups in Europe, China and the U.S.; a Kendrion that is a global niche leader in selected industrial market segments and that will sustainably grow its revenues with an expected 5% to 8% per year, achieving a profitability of at least 15% EBITDA. A Kendrion that has and will select these industrial market segments against 3 criteria. One, we are looking for business opportunities with a clear product differentiator or USP based on our deep expertise in valves, actuators, brakes and control technology. Two, the product market combination needs to offer superior profitability of at least 15% EBITDA and preferably more. And three, it needs to offer healthy growth potential of at least 5% and preferably more. Now you may say a nice criteria, but where are these opportunities? Well, we are working on many. Olaf, Robert and Telly will give examples of opportunities and projects that are all active. Kendrion pivots from a strategy where organic growth leads to increased profitability through economic -- economies of scale to a Kendrion where profitability leads further profitable growth. And over the next 2 hours, my colleagues and I are keen to tell you that story. This morning's agenda, I will start with the introduction to give some context behind the strategic decision to focus on industrial and to summarize the structure and key terms of the transaction with Solero. After that, I will talk about our strategy post close, where profitability will lead our growth in the niches we have selected. After that, you will hear about what it means in terms of the concrete implementation of our strategy by our business leaders, Olaf, Robert and Telly. You will hear about the USPs, the profitability and the growth potential. Then Jeroen will take the floor and talk about our 2024, 2028 ESG plan and the translation of our strategy and our expected performance towards our 2025 targets and, of course, discuss the new ones we have set for 2027. We'll wrap things up by around 4:00 p.m., after which you are invited for drinks right here in the room. Before we get started, I would like to draw your attention to the following. Certain statements contained in this presentation constitute forward-looking statements, and these forward-looking statements rely on several assumptions concerning future events and are subject to uncertainties and other factors, many of which are outside the company's control that could cause actual results to differ materially from such statements. The decision to divest our Automotive business to Solero as announced on April 12 is clearly an important strategic decision for Kendrion. Let me give some context. First off, there has been a significant and unprecedented change in the automotive market over the past 10 years in almost all aspects, the size of the market, the products, consumer behavior and the main OEMs with many players now that did not even exist 10 years ago. As an example, let's take the size of the market. On this slide, you see the view of the 2024 automotive market as presented 10 years ago, 2014, by Roland Berger. It's a busy slide, but let me call out 2 points. First of all, the number of cars was expected to grow from -- for 10 years with 2.5% per year from 88.1 million cars in 2014 to a total of 112 million vehicles produced in 2024. And this was deemed slow. The second part is even more striking. Electrification was thought to be relevant. The forecast for 2024 called for 3% of all vehicles to be electrified, both EVs and hybrids together. Now let's fast forward 10 years. It is the most recent forecast for 2024, 2030 by IHS Markit. First of all, you see the actual number of light vehicles for '24 is more like 90 million, instead of 112 million. So in fact, in 2024, the number of cars produced is similar to 2014. The market for light vehicles has not grown for 10 years. And look at electric vehicles. 2024, not 3, but 20% of all vehicles produced are electrified. This means 18 million EVs and hybrid cars, instead of 3 million. Comparing the two, the difference is striking. A 20% smaller market overall in terms of units than forecasted in 2014, EV is 6x larger than anticipated, and the combustion engine representing well over 60% of Kendrion's revenue in 2014 is 34% smaller than forecasted and actually 18% smaller than it was in 2014. So how did we respond over the past years? Here, you see the composition of group revenue over the past 8 years. In 2016, 66% of group revenue, or around EUR 293 million was automotive or in the combustion engine. When the changes started to accelerate in automotive, we acted. Investing more in industrial and through M&A, we bought into and 3T. This resulted in a more balanced group. In 2023, Automotive represented over -- just over 50% of group revenue, around EUR 260 million, 10% smaller than in 2016, but still mostly in combustion engine, which by now is a market that had shrunk by around 20%. So in hindsight, you could say it's a reasonable result, but of course, not at all what we set out to do as a mostly automotive company in '16 with a different expectation of what the automotive opportunity would be. The significant and relatively fast changes in the automotive market have led to strategic changes over the past years at Kendrion, such as putting more emphasis on industrial. And we're not alone. The changes have triggered big strategic moves in the industry such as at Continental. And recently, Volkswagen has announced in May, for the first time in its history, closed factories in Germany. We at Kendrion arrived at the conclusion that we could not support both investment in industrial and automotive, that we had to make a choice. The automotive industry is in a major transition, also means opportunity, but to make use of that opportunity requires substantial investment in R&D and in production equipment. And over the past years, we have found ourselves more and more in a position that we have to choose, do we invest in a specific automotive opportunity or do we instead allocate the funds and the resources to industrial. By staying active in both automotive and industrial, we run the risk of being subscale in both, which led to the strategic decision to put our focus exclusively on opportunities within our Industrial Brakes and Industrial Actuators and Control business groups in Europe, China and the U.S. With this, we think we can make better use of the growth opportunities in brakes and in actuators and control, and we substantially improve the group's EBITDA margin profile. As a reminder, let us briefly go to the transaction itself. Solero with support from Atar Capital will pay Kendrion an enterprise value of EUR 65 million in cash and integrate Kendrion's Automotive business into Solero. Solero is a Tier 1-2 company of Atar based in Water Valley, Mississippi. The cash generated by the divested assets until closing will be for the benefit of Kendrion. And as to the closing, we've made great progress and expect to close on October 10 later this year. Of course, the transaction has significant impact on our revenue mix. Looking at this foil on the left, the makeup of Kendrion's current revenue, as mentioned earlier, pretty much 50-50 between Automotive and Industrial. And in the announced transaction, we divest around 80% of the Automotive revenue, so 40% of group revenue to Solero. We retained suspension China, Automotive Sound and Electronics in Europe, and this is to be integrated in IAC. Post transaction, Kendrion will be a pure-play industrial group with around 42% of revenue in Industrial Brakes and 48% in IAC. So how do we integrate retained Automotive? 3 Automotive parts are going to stay with Kendrion and will be part, as mentioned, of IAC. Firstly, it's our suspension business in China. In 2023, that business was EUR 9.5 million. And as presented in February, during our full year 2023 results, we have a sizable pipeline of won suspension projects. Here, we will continue to look at potential new business with the explicit condition that it will need to satisfy industrial-level profitability targets of at least 15% EBITDA. Secondly, our electronics business produced in Sibiu. This is our fuel pump controller business. The size of the business in 2023 was EUR 22.3 million. This is sunset business. And although we expect it to run for quite a few more years, we are not investing here, and we do not foresee that to change. And then finally, our Automotive Sound business, the revenue in 2023 was EUR 20 million. As part of the strategic repositioning, we have decided to discontinue our investment in these products. We foresee a cost saving of EUR 7.0 million per year as per the 1st of January 2025. The one-off costs associated with this is expected to be around EUR 4.5 million, and these costs will fall in the second half of 2024. As mentioned before, all these activities will be integrated in IAC, which also means the pro forma 2023 revenue for IAC is EUR 179.3 million. Financially, the announced reposition of -- repositioning of Kendrion into a pure-play industrial company has 2 main components. First, the sale of the electromechanical automotive business in Europe and the U.S. and an enterprise value of EUR 65 million and, at the same time, discontinuation of all R&D activities in the area of sound and electronics. We expect that this termination of R&D activities, together with the reduction in central costs as a result of smaller organization, will result in a total of EUR 9 million in annual cost savings. Earlier, we said EUR 8 million. We now expect it to be EUR 9 million. We're on track to have these cost savings effective as from January 1, 2025. We anticipate a charge -- the one-off charge of EUR 9 million in nonrecurring costs, which includes both the restructuring charges and the transaction-related costs. These costs will be incurred -- largely incurred in the second half of 2024. In order to illustrate the economic impact of both events, we have shown the effect on a pro forma basis in fiscal year 2023 as if the automotive sale and the cancellation of sound R&D were fully effective. The EBITDA contribution of the sold activities was EUR 19 million in '23. And together with the expected EUR 9 million cost savings, this would have resulted in a EUR 10 million lower EBITDA in full year 2023. It also means the implied multiple of the effective loss of EBITDA is 6.5. The transaction, and you will be surprised by that, significantly improves Kendrion's financial profile. Based on our historical performance and on the longer-term business outlook, the transaction improves our profitability, our added value margin and our cash flow generation. This slide illustrates how the key financials of Kendrion look like as an industrial company in 2023, again, on a pro forma basis. Our revenue would have been EUR 309 million with EUR 43 million in EBITDA, which is a normalized EBITDA margin percentage of 13.9. The transaction would have further increased the absolute net profit before amortization to EUR 15.6 million, driven by lower financing costs. And importantly, our financial position will significantly strengthen, as indicated by the pro forma leverage ratio of 2.2, enabling us to continue to invest in growth opportunities in IAC, IB in China. We expect the transaction to close on October 10, 2024, which is exactly 5 weeks from now. And the next 4 sections will be about Kendrion post close. What are we going to do? To capture that in one sentence, at the new Kendrion, we will focus on profitability first. Since we announced our medium-term financial targets in September 2020, we have used the Kendrion Strategic House as the metaphor for our strategy. The top of the building indicates the strategic intent, and linked to this are our medium-term financial objectives. Jeroen will come back to this later in the presentation. Underpinning this strategy are 3 pillars: Industrial Brakes, IAC and the Automotive group. And as stated on this slide, the majority of these businesses was focused on organic growth, Automotive, IB, parts of IAC and certainly also China. This organic growth drives profitability through operational leverage. So in this strategy, growth drives our profitability. The divestment of Automotive in Europe and the U.S. will also drive the fundamental change in that strategy. Post close, Kendrion will pursue a strategy where profitability is leading for 100% of the business, IB, IAC and China, a pure-play industrial company active in brakes with applications like robotics, wind power and logistics. And in Actuators and Controls, where with various technology groups, we serve over 30 different market segments. It will be a simpler, more focused organization. And at the new Industrial Kendrion, the focus is on profitability. The retained Automotive business, both in Europe and in China, will be managed in exactly the same way. We are a global niche leader in selected industrial market segments to sustainably grow revenues with 5% to 8%, achieving a profitability of at least 15% EBITDA. With strict criteria for the market segments and the opportunities that we invest in: first, it needs to be a product opportunity with a clear USP based on our deep expertise in valves, actuators, brakes and control technology. Second, and of course, related, the product market combination offers superior profitability with at least 15% EBITDA. A good differentiator is essential for that. And finally, we're looking for a healthy growth potential, at least 5%, preferably more. In other words, no differentiator, we will not engage. Not enough profitability, we will not engage. No visibility to at least a 5% CAGR on growth, we will not engage. And in the sweet spot, as indicated here on this slide, we see plenty of opportunity. Olaf for IB, Robert for IAC and Telly for China will present around 15 concrete examples of these opportunities, all of which are in the middle of this diagram. Each opportunity is different. Each has its own dynamic, its own competitors, its own leading customers, its own USO, in some cases, it's on road map. However, each niche shares the characteristics just mentioned. Some may be relatively small. But added together, they represent a substantial and tangible opportunity for growth between 5% and 8% at an EBITDA of 15% or more. Let me elaborate a little bit on that. So what type of market segments are focused? We are looking for market segments with a clear underlying trend making it interesting. Think about energy transition, medical devices, factory automation, logistics. We're looking for a minimum size of these opportunities, although specific submarkets can be substantially smaller. And importantly, as mentioned, we're looking for a unique selling proposition, things like additional safety features, required precision, reliability demand, things like that. We will avoid large commoditized, volume-driven segments such as the traditional automotive Tier 1 or Tier 2 segments and consumer products. We will also avoid markets overly dependent on government subsidies as these opportunities tend to evaporate as the politics of a specific country changes. And what does it mean in terms of the financial criteria that we use before we engage in a customer project? New business investment decisions are made per project and based on a set of financial criteria. An added value margin of at least 50%, a steady-state fully costed EBITDA margin of more than 15%, a lifetime return on invested that is larger than 25%. Minimum lifetime revenue and EBITDA requirements that vary a bit for business group and sometimes even per segment. Furthermore, we will mandate volume-based pricing for all customers, meaning that lower-than-expected volumes will be priced higher and better volumes may attract a discount. And if we're talking about investment in R&D, in tooling, in production equipment, we will implement co-investment and risk share requirements by the target customer of at least 50%. And of course, as also mentioned earlier, we're looking for clear differentiators through IP, specific know-how, product USP to be able to protect our profitability. Now before we go to the business section, let me talk about M&A. We have done 2 significant M&A deals over the past 4 years -- 4.5 years. We acquired INTORQ in January 2020 and 3T in September 2021. In our view, these transactions have strengthened Kendrion and have broadened our strategic options. M&A continues to be an important tool for us. We have clear acquisition criteria and combine that with a disciplined approach to potential transactions. First and foremost, when offered an opportunity, we look at strategic fit. The transaction must be in direct support of our strategic objectives through targeting industrial companies closely aligned with either IB or the IAC areas of focus and must directly support our strategic objective of profitability-led growth. We're looking for tangible identifiable synergies justifying the acquisition premium in a relatively short period of time. And of course, we assess management and look for a good cultural fit with Kendrion. Post close of the transaction with Solero, our M&A efforts are supported by a stronger balance sheet. And we will continue to use M&A using this criteria in a straightforward and disciplined manner, which leads me to my final slide before I hand over to Olaf. I said it before, post transaction, Kendrion will be a simpler and more focused organization. This is the way we'll be organized, with all 3 business leaders responsible are here today. All 3 will now present concrete examples of the opportunities we are currently pursuing. And we will start with Olaf Detlef, Business Group Manager, IB.

Yes. Today, we will start with the Industrial Brakes, and, well, the first slide shows our 5 locations. And we have the change here in -- compared to the 2 years before. In the past, we had 2 plants in China. This came from the INTORQ business that were located in Shanghai and the Kendrion plant in Suzhou. And Telly and his team, they merged it to a sophisticated plant now located in Suzhou. Now we have 1 phase to the customer, big advantage. We have the INTORQ still in Pune in India. So -- and India is a growing market. We participate from that. So they are really efficient. It's a small market so far, but we make margins there. So it's quite positive to have a footprint in India also from the window market. Core business is still Europe. So we have 2 plants, 1 in the North. This is the INTORQ plant and here in the South in Villingen, the Kendrion plant. And both of them make different products. So the fit between INTORQ and Kendrion from the Brake business is perfect. Now we have the Integrated Brakes and the external mounted breaks. And then we have the United States. So it is more a sales office with a local assembling, but focus attention for the intralogistic, medical, robotics, and they're also growing rapidly. So coming -- this was next. Yes. I want to show you the market volume. It is difficult for us in the industry to really calculate the market volume. It's not like as in what we have in automotive, what is available, because the product prices are so different. But nevertheless, we need a volume out of that. So how we did that? Number one, of course, we asked our customers. So we used our -- all our CRM data, what we have. And -- but there's not really a proof. So therefore, second pillar is we bought the external analysis, and we compare that with all the information that we got from our customers directly. And then finally, we used AI tools and compared that with the external analysis and the information from the customer. So therefore, we came up with this number, between EUR 730 million and EUR 800 million. So of course, the driver still are the electrical motors on one hand and the industrial robots. But our backbone are also the niche markets. Niche markets mean markets where we are in for years. This can be, for example, the hoist industry, the stage, the elevator industry. So we don't have to develop their new products, but we have a nice margin business and. As I would say, is a backbone for these numbers. So now, today, we want to focus on the industrial robots. So I have examples for that: industrial trucks, ATVs, wind power and electrical motors. So the slides will follow. But this is not all. Our distributor business is also important for us because they are located in the emerging market, areas like in Brazil and Australia, where we are not direct present. And additionally, we hand oversea customers to them, some big customers that we are more efficient with our premium customers. And the additional niche markets, what I already mentioned, we also added the medical to this niche market because this is a new market for us. I have a slide, I will explain that to you. This can be a focus market for us also in the future. Let us start with the Robot business. So in the past will be our main customers are for the heavy-duty robots. So they use mainly the permanent magnetic brake. It's an integrated brake. And so the -- what you see here, KUKA, one of our big customers. And -- but now we have a chance here in the market, a big chance. So it's not only that we can offer for the heavy-duty robots. We also have the product for the cobots. And the cobots get more and more important now for us. So we have the whole portfolio for both of them. We don't have to develop that. We already have that on hand. And so we -- yesterday, we spoke about that because, last week, Amazon Robotics called us in the U.S., and they are interested for the cobots industry in the future. So means for the order picker. This is a huge market for us, and we have special brakes that we produce in Germany in filling and plant that we can use for this application. So additionally, we have already shifted the permanent magnetic line to China. So means now, Telly and his team, they are ready to sell the brakes local to local. So we buy -- we have the supply chain in China, and we will sell the products in China. So we have a competitive price also now in Asia. And what we have to do? So next step definitely is we have to optimize our supply chain in Asia that we have the -- that we can offer competitive prices also for the Asian market. So the market share, I would say, roughly in the robot is 8% to 9%, what we have. But think about that, it's mainly heavy-duty robots. Cobots is now additionally and, therefore, we see a big chance for us in this market. Industrial trucks. This is a core business from the interplant. So INTORQ is really, really strong in that. So the Aerzen plant. What we also have then in the old plant in Shanghai and in India. So we can offer solutions for the entire sector. And now what you see here on the picture, the blue one, this is a driverless truck and counterbalance truck and -- from the Bastian Solutions. So it's not a well-known brand, but belongs to Toyota. As long as this is a test for them, they use a Bastian brand. When this becomes a serious, really, and big business, they will change it to Toyota. And now the brake becomes more important in the future. Why? Because in the past, the industrial truck had the driver and the brake. The driver made a decision how to stop the truck. Now it's only the brake. So quality is so essential. So we had, really, on deep discussions, how, what we can offer that this kind of trucks can really keep in the line, that there is no danger. So that means, for us, due to the fact that we have all the knowledge in -- out of this industry, so we were able to offer the suitable solutions. So what is important now for us, due to the fact that the market is changing here as was in the last years before, the driverless solution came a little bit boring. There was not really, really big changes in the market. But now there is more speed now in. So the digital footprint, our website, if you check now our web page, you will find a lot of information about the ATVs. So this is now 2.5 tonnes plus. But the smaller one, you see that -- and we have a CAGR of roughly 13%. What we see is a new market also for us. And what's interesting is, what I said before, the industrial trucks was more an absent business. But now coming to the old Kendrion plant, here, what you see here on the picture is an Integrated Brake. This is a typical filling in business. So means now, the interplay between INTORQ and Kendrion is a perfect fit. We can offer the whole program. So if you'll see, for example, the Jungheinrich, who has the AGVs and the forklift trucks, a larger one, we can be a supplier for the whole entire range. And the advantage what we have here, this is a new market. So means -- and we have started here from scratch. So currently, we said the market volume, what we expect is EUR 40 million to EUR 45 million. That's information what we have currently. Maybe in 2 years, we will have a total different picture because we will see, this is a new market we are in, and what we have to do next step is, yes, we have also to increase our visibility for that. We must be careful. There is one challenge. There are so many new player now in the market, but we don't know who will survive here. So therefore, we select the main player because the advantage, what we have here, is our reputation. And that we will not invest in newcomers in the market. And then maybe in 2 or 3 years, they already disappear again. Very important. So wind power markets, old INTORQ business. We are in for more than 20 years in the wind power. So in the wind power, why you need their spring applied brakes? So they're at the blade control. There are 3 brakes for that. And for the whole cabin control, these are roughly 6 brakes. Depends what kind of wind turbine there. And so we have, in average, now 9, sometimes 12 brakes per wind turbine. They are totally different. So that -- with the brakes, what you need for are moving or stopping the cabin is not the same one as you had in the blades. So our big advantage is due to the fact that we started with the wind turbine business in 2001, all OEMs know us. So we are really, yes, I would say the player in the market. We calculated our market share here with roughly 30% to 35%. In fact, we sell the brake in the wind turbine maybe 4 times. When it is a new customer, a new OEM, we sell that normally not directly to the wind turbine manufacturer. It is the motor manufacturer, [indiscernible] manufacturer between. So this is number one and then 5 to 8 years later as a spare part for triple the price. So it's an attractive business for everyone, also for the OEMs. And because then maintenance of wind turbine is an important topic, and we participate from that also. So the second UPS, what -- USP, what we have here is we localize the brake production in Germany, in India and in China. So means also, they are local for local. And so fast reaction time. And we have also the professionals located in these countries. The challenge for us here is there is a technology shift. The wind turbines get larger and larger. So of course, we can develop bigger brakes. But on the other hand, the response time of the brake is also important. So for us, this is now the question, we do that with the OEMs together, how we can optimize the brake for the future? And the next step, what we do here is that we get more and more in contact, not only with the motor manufacturer, what is normally our customer, we go back to the OEMs, have this kind of workshops. The advantage that we have, we get an invitation due to the fact that we are so well-known and that we get the information how we have to develop our brakes for the future. I have an example for you, and this is with Siemens Gamesa. So in fact, the whole project took around 2.5 years. They came to us and said, "We have a challenge here in the market." And the challenge is that when side winds attack the wind turbine and the wind turbine has to move because, otherwise, there is one, the mechanical load on this wind turbine is too high. So the wind turbine has to move, but how we do that? So they asked us if we can offer a brake solution with really, really tied characteristic tolerances. And we said, "Yes, we have an idea for that," because in this case, the brake will work as an overload clutch. So when a side wind is coming, so then the whole cabin is moving because the brake is slipping. This will damage the brake maybe or reduce a lifetime, but this is the cheapest part in the whole wind turbine. You can destroy the whole mechanical chain with that. So therefore, we came up with the solution. And now the USP for us is R&D was so happy with that, that the 2 other projects, the offshore project and another onshore project, we got that automatically without the buyer between because we offered the perfect solution for them. And think about that. Price is always a sensitive topic. But in this case, when you can protect the wind turbine and you have a solution for that, and we have a proof of the concept, then quality is more important. So electrical motors. This is definitely the core business for us, also from the market size of around EUR 300 million and expected to EUR 400 million in 2029. So we showed you here 2 pictures. And the upper one is the external mounted brake. So that's the INTORQ product, and Kendrion do the internal integrated brake. That's the typical Kendrion business. And due to the fact that we are one company, we can provide a full range of spring applied brakes and permanent magnetic brakes for all the motor manufacturer. And what is the challenge for the motor manufacturer? It is a competitive market. There are so many motor manufacturers there. But what they need is reaction time and a solution, what is all standard. So normally, they get an order 4 weeks in advance. So they need a brake supplier who is able to provide a solution within 4 weeks. So therefore, we have a modular system with the brake. So this is all standard on our ERP system. The customer order that and within 1 day, you get an order confirmation with -- we are able to supply a brake within 4 weeks. And now what we see more and more in the market that Chinese competitor come to the European market. They want a piece of the cake. We have so much [Foreign Language] here in Europe. And therefore, they want a piece of that. And how we can win this game? With speed and with our quality mindset. That's how we have to react. So additionally, next step also for us, because we produce these brakes everywhere. So we have a family line in U.S., in Europe, then in India and in China. Of course, optimizing the supply chain is the key. We have to think about our cost because it's a sensitive market, the motor market, but it's really, really attractive for us as long as we do our home books. So now I want to give you an example for the new market, the medical. What -- there is one picture. This is called the da Vinci surgical robot from Intuitive Surgical. So these players are mainly currently located in U.S. Fortunately, we have a footprint in the U.S. So they come directly in contact with us in the U.S. So -- and now, what we ask here for that is really, is quality here a key? Or is price here a key? And hopefully, no one from us comes in contact with this kind of surgery robot. But I would say this will be the near future. And if you think about yourself, and maybe you are in pain and there is an expert, but you are here in Amsterdam in the hospital and the expert is located in Miami, so then it is only between the doctor and you, the surgical robot. So now we come to quality. So what we can offer here is a backlash free solution. That means whatever happens when there is a power stop, when there is any kind of failure in the program, there is no movement of the scalpel. We keep the position. And if I think about myself and I need a heart surgery, I don't want to speak about the quality of the brake. And they are highly interested in partnership with a high-end brake manufacturer, and this is what we can offer. And we have this compact design for that. And all the companies, what you see here, they are in contact with us, and these are not only leads. We ship samples to them. I cannot go more in detail about that because there's also some NDAs behind, but it's an interesting market for us. And we know, when the NDA gives an approval for that with our product, then we are in. So these are projects, this is only an example, because from the early stage with Schneider; mid-stage, Johnson & Johnson and Wittenstein; and late stage is FERTIG Motors. Schneider Electric, they develop a new motor line, more efficient, more power. So they need a brake vendor with a higher energy density. So it means we have to offer a higher torque, and we have to fulfill the requirement of the new motor generation. And we did it. So this is an attractive project for us because they don't develop a motor line every 2 years. This will run for the next couple of years. And the advantage, what we have, is we can offer the full range. So they are not interested in 2 vendors, but we can offer that. Let us come to Johnson & Johnson. It's a small project, what you see here. We only mentioned that with 150,000. But this is just the beginning. Johnson & Johnson went in contact with us and asked us, "Can you develop a brake for us, what is the size of a quarter?" And we said, "Well, we never made that, but let us think about that." And we came up with a solution, and we offered that to them. Then the quality manager, the buyer, then 2 R&D guys that took a fly to Villingen and made out it about us. So they said, "This is a partnership that we need." So this is a first small project, but think about that. We had never contact with them before. But they realized, wow, this is a company for the future for us. So Wittenstein, we have them -- this is not Wittenstein, but we have an AGV here. We can show you a little bit of solution integrated brake, battery-driven, so low energy consumption, and we offered a solution for that. Late stage, FERTIG Motors. This is one of the biggest company -- customer from our competitor. But he was not able to fill the requirement for the new motor generation. But we have a line, it's called high-torque brake, there's also a sample here, and we were able to fulfill that. So after many years now, he would change to us. And this shows us that we have the right products. We don't have to develop them. We already have them. So my summary, I see we have really an excellent outlook. So currently, I'm still located in the U.S., and we have currently 18 projects in the funnel. Of course, not all projects will go through, this is for sure. But as more as you have in your funnel, as more as you get out. But how we sell, really? What is our USP if we come to the sales department? And I mentioned that here with customer and market centricity. What does it mean? In fact, we have a big change in the market after COVID. Now it's maybe after 50% or 60% of the whole sales journey, they -- it is the first time they go in contact with us. They do the homework now. They check the digital footprint. They know what kind of products we have. They know what is our performance. When we come in, they're already informed. So that means we have to get up to speed immediately. So when we are together with the medical companies and these MIT engineers, they are not interested in small talk. They want to have the answers directly. So we changed our approach for that. So in the first call in the discovery call, anticipation and advisory, that we really -- we work together with our product management and the sales and that we show our competence from the first contact. Then we have to navigate the customer in a kind of a solution what is suitable for him, but this is the advantage in the industry. We can navigate the customer here. And then we need an interpretation. So what he want, what we want, what we can offer, that we come really to a confirmation of the deal. So we increased our hit rate with that because we offer content to the table. That's how we make business. That's about us. Thank you. Robert?

Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, looking at the IAC world map, yes, we can state we work also in 3 different continents. However, the regional strategies differ from region to region. To give you a few examples, isolating switches for the electrical grid are mainly manufactured now in our China facility. Why is that the case? There's just more investment into the electrical grid right now. Beverage makers or valves for beverage makers are made in the U.S. because that's basically a U.S. business. There is little manufacturers to be found in Europe. And in Europe, our main manufacturing workforce is located in Romania because we have the best cost base there. And the business is quite well distributed. Yes, we have a large part in the German-speaking countries, but we are also active in the Netherlands, in Scandinavia, and we see more and more business upcoming in Eastern Europe. Looking at our 5 major strategic growth areas, which is health care, energy consumption and energy efficiency, manufacturing automation, remote-operated locking systems and beverage dispenser. We have indicated for you the market sizes. And as Joep already stated, we are looking for market sizes which are larger than EUR 100 million. But we come to some explanations also in the details. When you are working in the niche, you might pick the whole market, but you can look at the niche. You can look at certain regions. So that's why you can make your pick here. But what I can tell you is these markets are large enough and we can always pick a new niche, which we are following into. The CAGR is usually higher than 5%. Of course, we are growing in markets where we see also a certain trend which is helping us to develop this, our activities. And what we also do, we look for loyal and solvent customers who are willing to pay their share in the R&D and customers who can value that. We are usually looking for the upper 30% of these markets because the requirements are higher. And our own CAGR is typically higher than what we show here in this table. Usually, that range is between 12% and 20%. So then we decide for major activities of our R&D. The 5 market or application elements, you see here represent approximately 40% to 50% of the total IAC revenues. Let's have a look into the first growth area, this is the medical equipment market. Actually, we are in 3 different areas, with dialysis machines, anesthesia machines and it's dental equipment. We also have some activities here and there in the laboratory, but the major part are these 3 applications. What do we deliver? It's fluid controls, mainly valves. The lifetime of the product is typically 20 years. So once you are designed in, it will run for that time. Why is this the case? The device manufacturer needs FDA approval, for example, so it costs millions to make a change there. We have, of course, not only precision innovation, yes, we have our own IP. We address, hopefully correctly, the market drivers, but I can say we have always a good price performance level. And that is, with valves, usually the leakage. You might imagine fully plastic valve, has higher leakage rate, fully metal valve is easier to achieve low leakage rates. We have found the right mixture between metal parts and plastic parts. So it's a good cost price performance level what we achieve here and is dedicated to the medical market what we do. We brought an example along that is American or U.S.-based subsidiary of Fresenius Medical Care. It's one of our major customers. And what you see here is a product we developed for home dialysis machine. You might imagine for dialysis treatment, you have to see the dialysis patients 3 times a week for 4 hours. Of course, that is not very convenient for the patient. So to have it at home is a huge advantage, where you can connect to the machine during the night and then it's 8 hours, and it's much more convenient for the patient. And we think our customer is driving in the right direction here, and it has huge potential for further growth. And it's also portable, so you can take it along to your holidays and have also your treatment there. What do we do there? We press the PVC tube together. It needs a higher force than normal. And it prevents the patient from dying when air bubble, for example, might go through this tube. So that the security element within -- an important security element in those kind of machines. We have long-term knowledge about that. So usually, the major provider of this equipment are asking Kendrion to, yes, for our help and our knowledge. The next market we call energy and energy efficiency. It actually has 3 elements. The first element is rather about reduction of energy consumption, the next one is energy generation and the third one is energy distribution. So we are, in all these 3 segments, active. And our main driver of energy efficiency or reduction of energy consumption is inductive heating. Inductive heating is used for long term, mainly for forging of metal. But that is actually not so sophisticated. We use a more advanced technology, which is allowing you temperatures with plus/minus 1 degree up to 300 degrees Celsius. We have achieved energy savings of about 50%. Our performance ratio is 97%, and what we can achieve. It's relatively high. So you get the heat exactly there where it's needed, and you don't hit the environment. This is a very precise process, and we have achieved up to EUR 100,000 per machine per application in savings. The second one is addressing the nuclear power plant market. Nuclear power plants are built everywhere in this world, and it's growing more and more. Many countries see a future in that, yes. And what we do, we have also brought the product along, it's a very heavy one. It's solenoid actuator in the cooling circuit of the nuclear power plant. So it's highly safety regulated market. And we have the documentation, we have the engineering, which is a large part of delivering such a product. And the third area where we are active in is isolating switches or circuit breakers for the electrical grid. We serve that in all 3 continents. So we have customers in Europe, in the U.S. and also in China. And we see more and more activities there in China. So the market is somehow moving in that direction, and we can address that properly. So we brought a nice application along about inductive heating. You see here a typical application that is coating of plastic foils. This is done the so-called [indiscernible] machines. And also here, the requirement is to control that with plus/minus 1 degree Celsius, so it's very precise. That technology is used for foils in electrical cars for the battery. So they are more and more driving to more sophisticated foils to extend the lifetime of these batteries. So that's what's actually behind. Yes, it's a roll, it's a heated roll. And the current technology is based on oil. So the oil is heated. The oil needs pipes. The oil has leakage, it's dirty. It takes time to heat up, it takes time to cool down. So we all don't have these disadvantages with inductive heating. So -- and you can also imagine that we can replace other technologies based on steam. So we replace gas heating. We might also replace normal electrical contact heating. So that is what we are currently doing successfully. And of course, the inquiries are coming up more and more because there is, as you might imagine, a heavy driver for energy consumption reduction, but also for reduction of CO2. The next market is manufacturing automation. And yes, this manufacturing automation might be a market of EUR 200 billion. Even the P&C market alone is EUR 20 billion. But we are working in certain niches. So that's why we are narrowing it down a bit. The first element is electronics and embedded controls. Engineering services, that's what we do out of our 3T operation here in the Netherlands. We have brought along also electronic automation products. We do safety brand leveling for famous automation manufacturers. We do motion, as you can see here in this [ edgy locks ] AGV running. We have a large product portfolio for the AGVs right now, but we are also active in other areas, like optical beam shutters. Optical beam shutters are used in laser applications. I think in these laser applications, we might be the #1 worldwide. We are supplying vibratory solenoids used in excitation systems and for feeders, just to give you one example where we are in these manufacturing automation element. And also here, besides our 2 examples from the AGVs, which you can see after the presentation. We have heard already Jungheinrich as a customer for IB, also a customer for IAC. We have here an example for an RGV. So it's not an AGV, automatic guided vehicles. So this is radio-guided vehicles, so it's running on rails, but it's also supplying warehouse. Jungheinrich is, of course, known for its forklifts, but it's also active in intra-logistics systems. And Kendrion supplies a soft PLC-based safety solution, including motion control. We have integrated several software packages. And of course, we are running it on industrial network protocols, integrating function and safety. The next market I would like to introduce to you we call remote operated locking. And also here, you might imagine everything is now operated out of the mobile phone, switch on, switch off and, of course, also opening and closing of cabinets and all kind of devices. That's where we are in. 15 years ago, Kendrion supplied one lock into one washing machine. That's how we are starting this. So in the meantime, we are #1 in Europe for professional washing machines. We do the main lock of the washing machine. And 3 years ago, we spread it out into professional kitchen equipment, such as bakery ovens. So we also opened and closed the doors there. And now we are moving into laboratory and medical equipment, and we will also exhibit in Amsterdam at the Post and Parcel Expo (sic) [ Parcel+Post Expo ] we show our possibilities for these post cabinets. So if you are interested, you are invited to have a look at it. Yes. Currently, we are implementing a larger project with the company Gorenje. Gorenje belongs to the Chinese Hisense Group. And we will equip their ASKO line. This is the high-level washing machine line. It's semiprofessional, I would call it. It's rather not to be found in the household. But it's addressed on a larger scale. So we are looking at a higher number of pieces where we have the possibility to automate our lines as well. So that should increase also our margins, which you can usually not achieve in that high number of pieces. We are using here our patent-based motorized dry solution, which meets a lot of operational and safety requirements at affordable prices. And now I would like to come to the beverage dispensers. The usual -- yes, the usual convenience store in the U.S., you might have seen it are operating up to 9 different machines. In Europe, you might find one. So that's why the American market is just by far larger than the European market ever will be. It's actually a long-term business we have in the U.S., and it received a larger push by a new technology with more accurate dosing. And this has been brought in by our partner, Newton CFV, where we have also a collaborations since 2018. And this has been taken over by Middleby. Middleby is a larger American-based professional kitchen manufacturer, and they were looking also to enlarge their product portfolio into beverage-making machines. And of course, with this new technology, yes, we see a good chance together with them to spread out. The market has more than EUR 1 million. It's also a replacement market, where we just replace in the existing beverage mega machines, the valves. It's a plug-and-play exchange. It can be done by the service technicians, and it will immediately improve the taste and also the consumption. Middleby is also moving with us into other applications, such as dispensing the syrup in the coffee machines. If you, for example, go into Starbucks convenience store, there's always someone busy with putting the syrup onto the coffee. So if you can automate that, you save one person per convenience store. And the next idea is to have alcohol-free beer from the tap. So nowadays, alcohol-free beer is just available in bottles. In every restaurant, it's just in the bottles. So if you can have it from the tap at a good taste, of course, that would also give a push into this market. Yes, so we said we are in this business of replacing the valves. So the market is relatively large. We are currently active with several convenience store operators like Circle K., to just give you an example. And what we are actually doing is we deliver a more precise mixture of syrup and water at a lower cost level, and that creates value for the operators and for the syrup manufacturers in delivering a constant mixture of syrup water so that the taste is the same and also the consumption is the same in every convenience store. So that is the target. Because if you are a Coca-Cola drinker, you expect the same taste. It doesn't matter where you buy it. Then let's move a bit regional. I have prepared a slide for 3T because we are here in the Netherlands. And also, I would like to introduce to you, Michiel Bloemen, our Managing Director of 3T based in Enschede. We can state after the acquisition made in '21, as mentioned by Joep, that 3T is adding more and more value to Kendrion. The first, we see that due to the well-known brand within the Netherlands, Kendrion is receiving more and more interesting inquiries out of the Netherlands. So even for other products. So that is a very good benefit. Secondly, we also see now that first inquiries from Germany are ending up at 3T. So it's really a good synergy we have achieved here. And also this year, we opened a third office or affiliate for 3T in Drachten. Yes, this has been done to better address the constraints in the engineering workforce in the [ Sasan ], Netherlands region. You might understand competing for the engineers with ASML has been a bit difficult. So -- and we can also work very well out of Drachten. Yes, mentioning ASML, the ASML business is, by the way, the largest customer of IAC, and it offers even more potential. So we are currently working on it to enlarge our service business. But so far, we are delivering just services. And of course, we have to potentially deliver also products. We will, therefore, drive for more integration with the control technology based in Malente, so that we position ourselves better for more business in laser power generators, just to give you one example. Some details about the integration of the rest of the automotive part. As you know, we sold mainly our electromechanical part of automotive. In Europe, we will still operate the electronics part of automotive in Sibiu, and we will integrate this automotive electronics business to be an electronic manufacturing service company. It doesn't necessarily need just automotive, it can also be something else. This will be operated directly out of Sibiu, so we will serve all customers out of Sibiu. We have some limited support left for engineering in Germany. And we will ensure, with that matter, several topics. First, no interference with other IAC business. It will be a separate company. We will focus on electronics only, with strong emphasis on margin improvements. The plant is fully loaded until end of '27 with a healthy product mix. It's not very dependent on the, nowadays, a bit doubtful development of the electrical cars. To sum it up, Kendrion IAC is a very solid business. It's highly innovative. We have a strong R&D team with top-of-the-notch customers, a lot of IP, a strong Sibiu cost base and an advanced sales and marketing process. There is a proven track record to bring new innovations into the market. And of course, we choose market segments where we see an interesting payback time of less than 3 years and the ROI of above 20% -- 25%, sorry. And of course, when I look into the past and compare it to the current situation, I can state the pipeline is more full than I've ever seen in the last 15 years. Thank you for your attention. Telly?

Yes. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. So let's present our updated progress in China. So, so far, we have roughly about 200 employees and deliver more than EUR 40 million business in last year. But actually, the one specialty for Kendrion in China, we think Kendrion [ one ] is we are the only one entity or a factory with everything -- with all Kendrion product and service consolidate into one site. Therefore, we can -- actually, we can deliver the one-stop shopping service to customer. And also by the one site integration, also sometimes we can deliver total solution to customers in China. So -- and also, today, we are serving around the 300 customers locally. And also, we are aiming to follow presented focused market here. And definitely, we are delivered mainly by the 2 industrial business group. So like Industrial Brake, as Olaf also presented, industrial robot and also electric motor, up also the major market in China. And of course, also wind power, which are also quite significant. We are also a significant and even -- and also a leading player over there. And also for IAC product, we are active in energy world and railway and medical. And on top of that, we also have another focused market or interesting market, we call electric vehicle suspension. Which is right now is more than EUR 100 million annual market size, but with huge growth speed, more than 30%. So that means 5 years later, this segment will be EUR 0.5 billion annual business, can help -- that will enlarge our -- right now, the market totally about EUR 0.5 billion to EUR 1 billion serving [ black ] market in China. So we -- for this one, we will have additional page to share as the following. It's for electric vehicle industry in China become more and more active. So far, China become the largest manufacturer market or country of -- for the electric vehicle. We -- China market already become the largest in the world and also with a significant annual growth, more than 30%. So -- and also we -- actually, we are aiming this big market. And also, we have -- we do have a couple of projects, interesting projects, which meet the [indiscernible] strategic target. EBITDA is more than 15%. So we will also have some -- those projects to be shared in coming page. And to win the profitable business locally in China in our focus market, so we are executing the [ low ] 3 localization strategy. First one, we call local for local, actually means that we like to be building the local capability fully. We want to deliver the total -- the local service to customer locally independently to avoid any -- well, sometimes we call it geopolitical risk there, especially I'm from Taiwan. So we try to be more cautious. So we can deliver product service locally. And also, second, we like to win the local business. So we call -- you want to be a winner locally. So definitely, we need to meet the local customer target, service and customer speed. So to be -- and third, we like to be also the -- look, we'd like to show our local competitiveness, which means, actually, internally, we convince our local employee in China, say, actually, we want to position ourselves as a local company. Because we do believe in a few years later, our major competitor in China will be local customer. So it's better, we build our competence as a local company. For example, since the last second half in '23, we already moved in our new factory located in Suzhou, which is 28,000 square meter floor area, located in 20,000 square meter land. And the land is provided by local government almost free of charge, actually 5% of the local cost, of market cost. And we built a factory by ourselves. And we buy material from local supply chain, then we hire local people and we produce locally there. And we sell to local customer. So internally, we convince ourselves we are a local company. We are not a European company anymore. I mean, to local employees. We want to be local competitively in front of local competition to win the local business layer. So this is what our strategy, to be as local to local. Yes. So for the most important, we call -- usually we call a local technology there, so local R&D capabilities. So far, we're already localization for around 70%, which we are quite confident we can complete the localization process 100% within 2 years. Basically, the position of Kendrion in China, we are positioned ourselves as the joint strength between Germany and China. We call -- well, we like to build the Kendrion China as the Germany quality and Germany design with China's speed and China cost. This is our position there. So I'd like to introduce a couple of interesting projects in China locally here. Here is an interesting example. This is a traditional Industrial Brake. It's part of Olaf's presentation there. But we can see we are selling this traditional Industrial Brake into the growing market in China of in electric vehicle. This is kind of what we call automatic door of the car. And this is quite a new design. We actually started this design job or customer inquiry 5 years before in '19. The customer with a lot of hundreds of discussion and also validation, et cetera. So we start to mass production since last year. Well, this is a quite interesting design. I personally like it very much, because I'm the heavy tea drinker. So if I want to drive, have a long distance drive, usually, I will carry 1 cup or 2 cups of tea or coffee in the car. And by this design, that means actually, well, the door will automatically open for you for the driver, we can sit in without nobody to help. So this is quite nice. And we start to deliver the business since last year for millions of euro business annually, starting from last year. So this transitionally brake, but we are selling to electric vehicle market in China. And so far, since this year, our customer is a Tier 1 player leading -- well, by the way, we are the only one brake supplier so far in China, I mean, in this market. And our customer is also the #1 leading Tier 1 player -- and we are quite early bird. And also the customer, they are expanding their business since this year to get more and more nomination. So this is a quite interesting project. We are selling traditional brake then into the different market innovatively. So this is the one. And the second one is our mature or traditional market, like the Robert's presentation on IAC. This is our product on solenoid, and our customer product system we call isolation switch, which is designed for the power plant for energy distribution from the power generator centrally then distribute energy to everywhere. And our product, we are delivering the best -- I would say, best quality and best reliability locally in front of local competition. Of course, we are selling a little bit higher price and with a nice margin. And although we are selling higher price in -- compared with local competition, but customers recognize our quality and service, because the customer system is cost million -- or a few million euro system. And well, our solenoid probably will be a few euro more expensive than local competitor. Well, for customers, they don't want to save EUR 2 and to take the risk of their millions of systems. So we are happy with this kind of cooperation with the local customer by nice margin there. So this is a second project. And the third market here is another interesting market for what we call the suspension, which are mainly for the 2 categories. The upper one we call air spring; the lower one, we call CDC damper, which are both built also in electric vehicle. I tried to explain a little bit. For the upper part, air spring is try to help the balance in the left and right, because the electric vehicle is quite heavy compared with traditional car. How heavy? Let me put it simple. 12 years before I got -- I bought a new Maserati. The Maserati is quite heavy in the traditional combustion car, combustion engine car. But even that, it's 1.5 ton. However, for electric vehicles, in general, more than 2 tons. So that means for the average electric vehicle, the weight is even heavier than Maserati. So you can imagine. But then that means we are driving -- well, we think electric vehicles become more popular and popular, when you are making the right turn or a left turn, so I mean for fast speed. So the weight of the body, the car body could be a little bit shift to the left or right when we make a turns. So our product for the upper one, called ASV, is to help the balance in between left and right, so which can drive more comfortably. This is our first product. And the lower one, we call eCDV or eCDA or iCDA, depending on customer design, which has helped the CDC damper, which means to reduce the vertical damping force to let the passenger inside the car feel more comfortable without feeling too much vertical damping. So that means Kendrion, we are trying to provide the comfortable for the driver or passenger. Well, we want 360-degree for turn, upper one to reduce -- to be more comfortable for make a left turn or a right turn. And the lower one is to reduce the vertical damper, the damping force. So we did have a pretty nice successfully design in into the major locally there. And with the guidance of more than 15% EBITDA percentage. So this will be our business in the further. Then showing the summary. Yes. Okay. So for the strategic summary. In China, we are building the company there and the local team there for local design production. And by following the group guidance of profitability, minimum 15% EBITDA, we will serve those mentioned the key market layer, including EV and energy and automation, railway and medical, et cetera. So -- and also, we are quite confident to be the winner there by one consolidated site and Kendrion's strength as a total Kendrion in China. Yes, thanks for attention. Thank you.

Yes, okay. Thanks. Thank you, Telly. By the way, the Maserati was not a company car. So yes, I will discuss ESG. And then, of course, also the financials, how everything you heard today, how that ends up in the financials and, of course, the new financial targets. So over the past years, we have made significant steps in embedding the ESG principles across our operations, and I'd like to take this opportunity to highlight some of the achievements and our future ambitions. So our commitment to ESG is not new. We began early on our journey basically before they became mainstream. One achievement is a 15% reduction in energy consumption and a 65% reduction in carbon -- in relative carbon emissions since 2015. But we are not stopping here. Looking ahead, we have set ambitious targets for 2028. We aim for a further reduction of 70% in carbon emissions and the establishments of frameworks for Scope 1, 2 and 3 reporting. In addition, we are committed to enhancing gender diversity at all levels in the organization, striving for a 25% improvement to at least reach 33% representation. Moreover, we recognize the importance of integrating ESG metrics into our sourcing process, ensuring that our suppliers worldwide adhere to the same level of standards as we do. Then zooming in on our energy consumptions on carbon emissions. In '23, Kendrion emitted around 6,200 tons of carbon compared to around 12,300 in 2015, a reduction of 50%. The pro forma carbon emissions, excluding the discontinued operations of automotive in '23, was 2,200 tons. By '28, we plan to reduce this by at least a further 70%, which would then lead to a total 85% reduction since 2015. We will realize this commitment via further optimizing energy consumption, the use of solar panels in Germany and in China, and where possible, the procurement of clean energy. Then to gender diversity. Here, our task is clear. While gender diversity at the total labor force is well balanced, we do recognize that women are underrepresented in the indirect staffing areas and, in particular, in the higher management functions. Each business group has the clear target to improve at least with 25% until '28, realizing at least 33% representation of women in the indirect area and higher management. In conclusion, ESG is not just a buzzword for us. It's an integral part of our strategy that influences every aspect of our business. This is also evidenced by the step-by-step improvement of our EcoVadis rating since 2022, with our current rating putting us at the top 15% of thousands of rated manufacturing companies. However, we know we have much more to do. With clear targets and strong commitments, we are confident in our ability to continue leading ESG and delivering value for all our stakeholders. Then to the final part of our presentation today. Our financial achievements since the last Capital Markets Day and, of course, the new financial targets as a new pure-play industrial company. So first, the industrial -- the revenue development. Between 2019 and 2022, we experienced significant growth in our continued operation, basically the industrial business, both organically and via the acquisitions of INTORQ and 3T. Organic growth in that time frame was 7%, largely driven by strong demand for Industrial Brakes in '21 and '22. In '23, we encountered market challenges that impacted our revenue trends. The economic environment shifted, leading to a significant destocking and a slowdown in economic activities in our main markets. As a result, we saw a decline in revenue in '23 compared to the previous years. While this is a setback, it is essential to view this in the context of the broader economic landscape. Despite that, overall, organic revenue grew with 4% between 2019 and '23. And with the industrial markets in Europe now stabilizing, central banks hopefully turning to a more expansive monetary policy and various new programs ramping up, as you have heard from Olaf and from Telly and Robert, we feel confident that we can achieve the targeted revenue growth between '19 and '25 of between 4% and 5% for the continued operations. We're also on track to reach the 15% EBITDA margin in '25. However, of course, here we are held by the portfolio shift as a result of the automotive divestment. While the group normalized EBITDA margin ended well below our target with 11.1% in '22 and 10.3% -- 10.2% actually, it was in '23. It is also clear that the industrial margins significantly outperformed the group margin without exception, reaching 17% in '21 and '22, and 14% in '23. The pro forma EBITDA margin in '23 as if the automotive divestment had already occurred, and as if the EUR 9 million announced cost savings were already realized was 13.9%. The normalized EBITDA margin from continued operations in the first 6 months of '24 was 13.5%. But including the planned cost savings from rightsizing the corporate cost. Also here, the pro forma EBITDA margin would have been 14.3% in the next -- in the first 6 months of '24. By continuing our focus on the added value margin and operational leverage from the expected higher revenues we do expect an EBITDA margin improvement to at least 15% in '25. The ROI development shows the same picture. Solid improvement up to '22 and a decrease in '23 as a result of the industrial market downturn. However, also here, the automotive divestment is ROI-accretive. ROI of the continued operations, including all the announced cost savings on a pro forma basis was 17.8% in '23. This is significantly up from the EUR 13.6 million ROI that we reported for the total group in '23. We currently expect the ROI to improve to at least 20% in '25, mainly because of improved profitability. And then on the next slide, I will walk you through our target financial model of the new Kendrion. So the '23 numbers here are pro forma, as if the automotive investments and all the cost savings already happened. On the revenue, it was already mentioned, we expect to realize between 5% and 8% growth between '24 and '27. Based on this, our revenue in '27 is expected to end up between EUR 360 million and EUR 390 million. We anticipate between 50% and 52% added value margin as a targeted net positive pricing effects and sales mix effects are expected to balance out. At the same time, we expect staff cost as a percentage of revenue to decrease. This reduction is driven by increased productivity, positive sales mix effects with a comparably high growth in China and finally, our ability to leverage growth. Other operating expenses are targeted stable at around 6.5%, while depreciation as a percentage of revenue is targeted to reduce as a result of increased capital efficiency. R&D costs are expected to remain stable, while capital expenditure is expected of around EUR 14 million is expected in '27. Please note that the EUR 22 million investment in '23 that you see here includes EUR 6.7 million related to the construction of the China facility. Working capital as a percentage of revenue is expected to remain flat, and the targeted improvements in inventory turnover are expected to be offset by sales mix related increases. If you calculate these numbers, which I'm sure some of you will do, you arrive at the EBITDA margin between 14% and 19%. However, it should be noted that changes in the sales mix can have some offsetting effects between added value and staff cost. For example, high growth in 3T will be very beneficial for the added value margin, but less beneficial for the staff cost. So then to cost flexibility. As you have seen, our revenue expectation is the range between EUR 360 million and EUR 390 million. And while we have good visibility on revenue from new projects and the customer attrition rate is extremely low, we do have less visibility on the state of the economy. So to absorb the impact of volatility in the manufacturing industry, we have a strong focus on maintaining a flexible cost structure. So close to 70% of our total cost base is directly impacted by production and thus, revenue. The rest is basically indirect cost. 80% of these direct costs relates to raw materials. Raw materials that we purchased from outsourced production and 20% relates to direct labor. On the staff side, we target to have at least 10% flex workers and 10% workers with fixed-term year contracts, enabling us to lower our cost base quickly when that is needed. Additional flexibility can be reached with our bank, allowing to change the working hours between 32 and 40 hours also when needed. Then on revenue. So as Joep, has been stated throughout this presentation, the new Kendrion will prioritize profit over growth. But that is not to say that there are not ample opportunities to grow our top line at attractive margins. Throughout the presentations of Robert, Olaf and Telly, you have heard numerous opportunities for profitable growth. The table on the slide provides the indicative revenue share of the different end markets in '23. The stated CAGR is the growth rate that Kendrion expects to realize in these different subsegments between '23 and '27. Machine building and electric motors together represent EUR 95 million in revenue in '23. The main growth drivers here are electrification and industrial automation. So in addition to the expected overall market growth here, we also heard Robert talk about opportunities at ASML and Olaf about new motor projects with Schneider Electric and FERTIG Motors, as an example. The highest relative growth is expected to be realized in robotics and the logistics segments that represent around EUR 25 million of revenue in '23. The expected growth in these segments is driven by existing customers and emerging markets for AGVs collaborative robots that are targeted both by IAC and IB. Other fast-growing segments include energy, which represents EUR 40 million in revenue and where IB is the market leader in wind power, and IAC has a full pipeline with revenue for nuclear power plants, inductive heating, and fast switching solenoids for energy distribution. Another large one, the mobility segment includes besides the remaining Automotive business in China, and in Sibiu, Romania, also aviation and high-speed trains. Growth in the segment is driven by various new existing projects that are currently ramping in China and where industrial margins can be realized. Then moving to our capital allocation model. So the automotive divestment will strengthen our balance sheet. And in addition, the focus on profitability and a more predictable cash flow will further enhance the sources for capital allocation. The framework is actually quite straightforward. We believe that a strong balance sheet is in the interest of all stakeholders. We strive to maintain a leverage ratio between 1.5 and 2.25 throughout the cycle. We will also continue to be very disciplined in our capital expenditure and only do those investments that either protect revenue or at least meet the internal hurdle rate of 25%. On the M&A side, you already heard Joep, state that is back on the agenda. However, we will comply with the strict M&A criteria that we have set for ourselves. And last but not least, shareholders should benefit from improved profitability and a more predictable cash flow. So we have increased our dividend policy to pay out at least 50% of normalized net profit. And in addition, if the balance sheet allows so, also share buybacks are back on the agenda. So on this slide, you can see the shareholder distributions over the past years. As you can see, with the exception of 2020 (sic) [ 2019 ] , we have consistently paid out a significant percentage of our normalized net profit. We will continue to do so, but as we expect from an increasingly higher profit level. And then finally, the new financial targets as the new Kendrion as a pure-play industrial company. So in line with the focus on profitability, we explicitly do not have a revenue target. We do, however, state that the revenue growth expectation of between 5% and 8% per year between '24 and '27. On the EBITDA margin side, we have changed our target to at least 15% as from '25, to consistently achieving an EBITDA margin between 15% and 18% as from 2025. And to anticipate any remark that this target shows a lack of ambition compared to the existing framework target of 15% in '25. I want to point out 2 things. So first, and I'm sure you are aware, the pro forma EBITDA margin as a pure play industrial market in '23 was 13.9%, and the actual group margin was 10.2%. Second, the target range does not mean that 15% margin in any of the years is okay or expected. The 15% is considered a lower boundary and in neutral, and favorable market conditions, we explicitly target returns at the higher end of the range. I already explained that we are not on track to realize the targeted 25% ROI in '25. The current expectation of [ ROI ] in '24, '25 is an ROI of above 20%. And the target for '27 is between 23% and 27%. Finally, as stated already, we will change a dividend policy to distribute at least 50% of normalized net profit and finalizes our presentations of this afternoon. And then I hand back to Joep for the Q&A.

Yes. Thank you very much, Jeroen, and thank you to all my colleagues for the presentation. We now go to Q&A. And as to the Q&A, we create, of course, the opportunity to ask questions here in Novotel. [Operator Instructions]

Martijn den Drijver, ABN AMRO. I have a few questions, and I'll do them one by one, please. Given that you're guiding for CapEx relatively stable to depreciation? Is it my understanding? Is my understanding correct that you can achieve that 17%, 18% EBITDA target with the current production footprints? That will be question one.

Largely. So there are always CapEx needed, but largely -- so there is -- we have invested in equipment. The equipment is in good state. So largely, we can realize that with existing machinery. But in some cases, new projects that, for example, Robert talks about, does do require new tooling or small investments in new equipment.

But that's already included in your CapEx?

Sure, sure.

Okay. Clear. Then moving on to my second question, the 15% EBITDA target for 2025. Included in that assumption, is there any assumption of organic growth or is it just plainly H2 of 2024 is going to be equal to H1, plus the EUR 9 million that already gets us to 15%?

Now for 2025, we do expect -- so we said we expect to grow between 5% and 8%. All of this, of course, is handicapped by the overall state of the economy. But as we already observed the interest rate is coming down. We see some stabilization in the industrial areas. You heard a number of projects, and there's a lot of detail on the slide but quite a few of them are ramping in '25. So we certainly expect something in the order of that 5%, hopefully, a little bit more if the economy helps us. So that type of revenue expansion we expect and that will then help us, of course, to get to the 15%.

Okay. Got it. And then my third question is on growth and margins. You're switching now from growth focus to margin-focused. How are you going to ensure that the organization, not just the Executive Board is on board with that? Are you changing KPIs for remuneration? Are there new training plans? Can you elaborate a little bit on that part?

Yes, sure. So first of all, in many -- certainly in Robert's organization and to a large extent, also in IB, sort of the industrial part. This is already the way we think. Now we're going to be more disciplined -- even more disciplined than we used to be. But so this emphasis on making sure that we have this USP that we have the ability to generate at least 50% and that there is at least 5% growth, but you heard Robert say. So in many of these cases, we think we can achieve a lot more. That's already present. We're going to, of course, make that additionally and want to be clear, including also in China. To give you the last example, next week, we're all going to be in Sibiu. We have our annual top 50 meeting. Guess what the theme is. This is going to be the theme.

Okay. And then my final question with regards to capital allocation, and you now mentioned that share buybacks are in the -- are on the agenda again. You also mentioned a leverage target, what was it, 1.5 to 2.25 is as the optimum for Kendrion. At what level, assuming no M&A, obviously, would you consider SBBs in that framework?

Yes, I don't want to pin that down to a specific level. It's clear we're going to generate cash. It's clear that we have -- we will deleverage on the back of the Solero transaction. It's a Board decision in any case. We, of course, will look at the pipeline of opportunities in M&A that is typically not something you can share with the market if you tune in discussions. So all that stuff will factor in. And then we'll announce share buyback when we announced it, as we've done in the past.

And then just one final small question for Olaf. With regards to that Siemens Gamesa example. If that product is so unique, and you've designed it with the customer you have look in, why is the ASP only EUR 125?

What under?

EUR 125.

We still have to fulfill the market price. So it means it is important for us that price level and technology is in balance. We also want to win the future projects, and we got the future project. And this is -- we supported the customer in this situation and the [ sanguine ] is the following 2 projects also.

But wouldn't you be able to do that? We have [ EUR 250 ] available.

No, this is out of the market for that. So it is not -- so we are so long in this business, and this means there is a price range for that. And definitely, it is better than 15%, but it's not that we want to kick out us by ourselves.

But the other dynamic here is sometimes that if you really -- because of course, for a couple of years, short term, 2, 3 years, you can do whatever you want. But at the same time, the customer will then say, look, these guys are not real partners. We understand you want to make a nice margin. It's a great product, but we will now start working with a competitor and that may take 4 years to design you out. So -- and that's, of course, the art of the salesman that you inflict enough pain that they sort of accept it without being -- that they feel that you really abusing your position, which means they're going to go somewhere else.

Maybe I can add in sentence. Yes. So it is not rocket science what we do, the brake business. This is what we have to find out, but we were fast and we understood the issue immediately. So it means competitor can do that also, but not in the same time. So this puts our USP in this case.

The first one, then maybe for you, Olaf, because it's primarily about IB. This year, obviously, quite difficult market. Have you changed the markets you address to sort of make the business less cyclical? And which parts of that market are still very difficult and you still expect them to remain difficult to go into the new year?

So this year, yes, it is very difficult. So we realized this makes no sense currently to follow a project where a big investment from the customer side is needed. So especially in the U.S., we realize that for wind farms, there is no money currently in the game for that. So what we paid our attention now then for the AGV business because especially the smaller one, where we mentioned, less than 2.5 tonnes, this market is quite open for us. So therefore, we -- what we did is that we finalized the product line, there were a gap between, we filled that and sales were proactive. We're working together with robot, with the IAC. We hired an employee for calling cold calls that we get in contact with all the contract windows that we get a lead that then our sales go more active in that. This is what we did in this year.

So eventually, the goal has become less cyclical by spreading out the product offering? It's maybe different than previous cycles.

Yes, definitely because currently, we realize some of the customers currently they postpone projects. So we followed a little bit the market situation, yes.

And then maybe also as a follow-up, the projects you mentioned that in different stages like for Schneider, Johnson & Johnson, et cetera. You mentioned potential turnover per annum.

Yes.

What's usually the lifetime of those projects can it then be considered recurring revenues? Or are we still talking about project revenues? So let's say, you win those projects? Are we then -- can we then expect those revenues to come in for 10 years going forward? Or what's the -- usually the product lifetime?

If we speak for the motor business, I would say it's roughly yes, it's 10 years. If we come to the forklift trucks, it's 7 to 8 years, it depends. Wind turbine is roughly 5 years. Chain hoist is 15 years. So it depends on the application. But this is a big advantage in our business is when you're in, it takes sometimes 2 or 3 years to win this project, then we are in for years. So therefore, we have a stable growth with that. Of course, now what we also have to take into account, Schneider is a customer from us. They will discontinue more and more the older motor. So that's -- it's an add-on on one hand, but also then the other parts that goes more to the spare part business.

Okay, clear. And that's also compared to the previous cycle, you see those products getting longer or shorter because of higher innovation?

Yes. That's -- I would say that's also an interesting question that we asked ourselves. My opinion is to get faster.

And then one last one to rip it up. Cross-selling. Well, I realize that you have a lot of customers like Jungheinrich that are relevant for IAC and IB. What's the rate of cross-selling you see and that you actually lock in the customers and then also look into the other products you offer?

Shall I answer or you will answer?

Okay. Then I will take over maybe. Yes, we -- this is our first activity together for the AGVs and of course, we have applications where we have to find our luck separately. But we organized ourselves that we put our forces more together when it's necessary and applicable.

This is also, I think, as part of this new strategy. This -- we are going to be much more explicit in identifying and pursuing cross-selling. And that also -- it's a benefit of just being more focused.

Frank Claassen of Degroof Petercam. Two questions. First of all, on the China growth potential. If I recall well, 2 years ago at the Capital Markets Day, there were quite quantified revenue target for China. I haven't seen or heard them today, but can you elaborate on what is the growth potential in China? Is it more than the 5% to 8% target overall? That's my first question. Maybe, yes...

Double digit...

The first -- the reason you haven't seen sort of a specified and quantified growth target for China is because it follows the profitability. So there's a very conscious choice that we say totally, there is -- and we will talk about the growth potential, but it's there. But it will follow the profitability. So it's very, very important to realize that also in the EV market, where we have these 2 products that Telly presented, we have a great part. We have existing commitments. Obviously, we will honor those, clearly, and that's the pipeline that we presented, I think, in February. But for -- and there's much more opportunity, but it will need to satisfy the profitability targets that we set. And that will -- may or may not put a limit on this growth. Telly, for the current pipeline?

Yes. For the current pipeline, we are quite confident we can deliver more than double digit as the annual growth in the coming years.

Based on the existing commitments.

Much higher than 5% to 8%.

Yes. Okay. That's helpful. And then secondly, on, let's say, the retained Automotive business. So that would be the sound to suspension. What kind of margins can you achieve there? Is it similar to the rest of the business, the 15% margin? Or is it fair to assume that it's lower? Could you help...

So it's hard work, but we will be able to generate margins also there, the 15% so of course, you have some existing business that does not fulfill that, but there we're working to achieve that as well. We are taking out a significant portion of cost. The 7% to 8% R&D costs are basically squeezed out. And with that, you can realize a margin of 15% at least also for Automotive.

Maarten Verbeek, The IDEA. Firstly, a couple of clarifications, please. Firstly, you talk about growth of more than 5% per annum, but I've missed the word organic, which you did report in your previous strategic update. So the growth you foresee the more than 5%, is that organic?

Organic.

Okay. Then secondly, you also mentioned you changed your dividend policy more than 50% from 2025, I presume that's also over fiscal '24?

Sorry, again. You heard it?

Yes, sure.

And in the past, you also tend to offer your shareholders the opportunity for stock dividend. I'm a bit surprised that you mentioned share buybacks. Why will you be offering stock dividend? Because on the other hand, you think about buying back shares?

Well, actually, in the past, for example, we have also used -- I think 2018 was the last year buybacks to buy back the shares that are given a stock dividend. At one point, we have contemplated to switch to cash dividend, but there are certain shareholders that prefer actually stock dividend. So it's a choice. So I don't think anybody will get word from it.

And then do you also have -- because you mentioned the strategic criteria for making acquisitions. I wasn't really clear about the financial criteria. Is it when you're making acquisitions, those acquisitions should live up to your current financial criteria, of 15% EBITDA and 5% organic growth?

Yes. They should strategically fit, obviously. But also financially, they should not dilute the targets and the financial objectives that we just stated.

After the divestment of your Automotive business, your leverage will come down strongly to -- when I calculate to some 1.8. But again, looking at the future free cash flow you will generate and when you would like to acquire a business with a profitability of 15% and attach a certain multiple to such an acquisition, you will very quickly end up ahead of 2.5 again. So when you talk about making M&As again, will you be issuing capital even at the current share price?

Well, it's either way, right? It's either. So at the current share price, they will be very dilutive and therefore, expensive. If what you just stated, of course, which is hypothetical is true, then my expectation is that the valuation will have moved and we'll have to look at that time in what the situation is, how we will finance that. The point is that we are more focused. We do believe our balance sheet will improve. We do believe we're going to get the option to do M&A just as we did with [indiscernible] as we did with 3T, good examples. That's the type of acquisition we're going to be looking for. And if we see that opportunity, then of course, at that time, we will decide how to finance it, what is the best way. It's very difficult to say something generically about that.

And then lastly, for the moment, also during your AGM, you've stated that industrial activities, we prefer over Automotive also because it requires less capital. And therefore, I'm a bit surprised that you stated today that your depreciation level is so rather high.

Jeroen, do you want to say something about that? the [ 14 ], you mean?

Yes, you mentioned that depreciation...

Yes, 4.5% depreciation -- percent. Yes. But yes, I think Automotive is higher than that. Industrial is a little bit lower than that. We have some, for example, some capitalized R&D that will be amortized over the coming years especially in the sounds area in Sibiu. But yes, I think in the long run, Industrial, a little bit over 4% can be achieved, but that is, of course, depreciation being quite sticky that will take some time. [ Aaron ]?

[ Aaron ]. Can you talk a little bit about your willingness to accept lower-margin projects and SKUs because you've presented a lot of SKUs and a lot of end markets, and a lot of projects. And certainly, the new ones, Johnson & Johnson comes to you. Can you develop this new Jungheinrich comes you can develop that? A lot of these products of yours go into new projects of these clients and they may not pan out. I mean the power of Jungheinrich still has to prove itself. I think it sold one. So you can get stuck into low-volume projects with the client for years to come that actually results in you ending up at relatively low margins or below the 15% threshold. So how do you ex ante manage the risk of ending up in SKUs and projects that are actually below in your stock? And I think the volume-related pricing, and the pricing power there is I think something you may want to address here.

It's a fair point. I mean, you can put all the criteria up that you want, and we're going to be very disciplined about those. But ultimately, as you say, it's usually an innovative product. It may not work at the customer side. We invest in R&D. It may not work as well as we hoped in our end. That will continue to happen. Robert just mentioned, I think that he see never the pipeline further than today, not everything. You also said that will pan out. So we take that into account. Of course, the hit rate and the success rate is something that we have some experience with. We're pretty good at that, but it's not 100%, obviously. So in the mix, that will have to ultimately result in at least 15% but that also means that for the more risky project, if you like, if we assess, well, this is technologically risky or it's more risky from a market perspective, we would probably demand more. So it's -- but in the broader portfolio, if you look at the abundance of examples that we gave, we're very confident because all these projects that we presented are here today. This is not something that we're thinking about, now where doing it as we speak. We're quite confident that in the mix, overall, we're going to hit the range that we've indicated here. More questions. Do we have questions online? One question. Let's start.

This is a question of [ Vincent from Hill ] Given the geopolitical TMR in the world and the increasing importance of strategic autonomy, does Kendrion see opportunities to focus on the defense industry in the future. This market segment seems to be ideally suited for Kendrion's products like drones, air defense and missile systems.

Yes. I mean -- so as a -- you presented just the segments that we are currently focused on the defense industry is not part of that. I also don't think we should rule it out. So it's basically a little bit the same. The mechanism that Robert described. We have valves, we have actuators. We have controlled technology. We have a multitude of opportunities to make new innovative business with that. If there's going to be an opportunity for a credible defense industry player, I don't see any reason why we would not engage with that. But to say, well, it's an actual spare point for us that we're going to go after that. That is also not in the works. Robert, you want to add to that?

Yes. We already deliver into defense industry but of course, not at the scale that should be mentioned here today. And we also think that we will increase that in the upcoming years. For sure, we will follow those kind of projects if they are interested.

Okay. Another question here?

Coming back to China. You've mentioned we're divesting automotive because we run the risk of being subscale in both. And if I look at China, you're doing IB, you're doing brakes -- excuse me, IAC you're just still doing Automotive. Aren't you running the same risk in China that you're spread too thinly, focusing on too many segments with a relatively speaking, still small organization, which doesn't have the track record of the organization of Olaf and his colleague over here.

Yes. That's a fair point. There is one big change to the way we thought about automotive in the past and today. And that is effectively the business that Telly presented with the suspension actuators, we call that is on the slide smart actuators is just another application area and it happens to be electrical vehicles. But we have the same criteria, so it's the same underlying technology. It's either a valve or it's a solenoid. It's control technology. And we look at the different application areas. So existing commitments, we obviously honor. By the way, they have to be at that 15% anyway. So that's good news. But for any new business, we're not going to create through the back door and other automotive franchise in China. It really will be treated exactly the way all the other segments that Telly, Robert and Olaf presented. And that means that if, for some reason, this commoditizes, and this margin is not available, then that's it.

Okay. Moving on. Jeroen, where did you find the additional EUR 1 million in savings?

Largely, the main part is we had a little bit remaining business still Automotive business in Malente for -- it's called [ IPG 2 ]. It's a sound actuator. We're moving that to Sibiu that enables us to fully close the Malente Automotive business, and that yields, yes, substantial additional savings.

Okay. You didn't know that when you came up with...

Well, it's not easy to relocate Automotive business. You need a customer. This is not the most easy customer, but it goes much faster than we have anticipated. Actually, we believe that as from the 1st of January this business is actually already in Sibiu.

Okay. And then there was some additional information on when charges are going to be recognized and then -- can you elaborate a little bit? Or can you give us a little bit through when the cash out is going to occur? So you had EUR 9 million of costs associated with the EUR 9 million in savings, EUR 4.5 million in the second half. I guess the rest is just doesn't require a restructuring charge. Now it's, I guess, becoming EUR 5.5 million. Is that all cash out in 2025? Or how should we view?

No. Well, it actually depends also how the negotiation will go. But in principle, chances are that, let's say, in Q3, we will take a provision in the books and in Q4 cash out.

And then a final one, and I'm sorry, it's another accounting question. Could you guide us a little bit for -- with regards to the free cash flow of the discontinued operations? What kind of cash flow are you expecting this business to generate because from an accounting point of view, we're all working with the continued operations? But obviously, this business is still generating cash. So -- is that going to be a material amount or not? Maybe something to clarify that?

You mean the Automotive business that will remain?

Yes. Your divested business.

Yes, sure. So you could say the 15% EBITDA is the minimum target that we will reach there. The investments are very minimal. So actually, the cash flow would be quite positive. So let's say, EBITDA minus 2% in investments because you do need to maintain certain investments take off the tax, and then, yes, I think 9%, 10% cash flow can be generated from that business and also relatively stable, depending, of course, on the ramps in China. If you grow fast, then obviously, you have a working capital component there, but in the long run...

No, no , I want to know. We know we have the half year figures. So we have the net profit of the discontinued operations. And we have in your overview, we also have what it would have been if you had not sold the business. You're going to close the transaction on October 15. But you just mentioned in the beginning of the presentation, all of the cash flows of the discontinued operations are going to be for the account of Kendrion. So it's going to be...

That's cash flow. Okay. Sorry. Yes. Okay. I'm with you now. So between the closing of -- between the announcement on the 12th of April, and what was it the half year figures. So there was like EUR 700,000 attributed to Kendrion. So let's say, another EUR 500,000 in Q3. So it's not everything else, but it's not super significant.

Maarten?

You made the decision to move away from Automotive, but you hold on to certain activities, particularly the suspension business in China. I'm actually surprised that you stepped into a new segment of the Automotive market through Industrial Brakes into those electrical power door business.

But into the what? The power door?

The power door business. Why do you want to get out of it and now you make an investment, can we also expect that activity entering into Europe?

Well, if that technology appears in Europe, perhaps. But as you may have noticed on the slide, we started this investigation in 2019. So this is not something that came up after April 12. So we've really had this for a long time. It's a standard brake, so there was no real R&D cost. Of course, there's a lot of tweaking and tailoring to be done. And now after many, many years of hard work by Telly and the team in Suzhou, this is now in China beginning to take off. And actually, we -- when we were in China, we watched -- we went to a demo room of some of these markets is actually quite interesting. Telly?

And one more remark is, actually, this is our standup break. So therefore, no CapEx required. We just produced in our standard brake line -- production line. We -- for that project, we didn't invest any CapEx. So to us, it is standard brake and no capital investment, then quite some business, millions of euro annual business, where margin -- we can meet the 15% EBITDA. So we keep it.

So we treat these things just as earlier talked to you -- answered Maarten. We treat EVs as just another segment. We have a product, we have an opportunity. We're going to look at the opportunity, we look at the growth, but we look at the profitability as well. If that's all good, we go for it. If it isn't, we don't.

So it's possible to expect other projects in EV in Automotive in future?

That could potentially be. I wouldn't know today or hand what it would be, but it could be.

With Automotive, you always had a difficult sign of getting a good prediction of what your inventories would reach your working capital? Is it more -- do you have -- because you didn't know what your clients were looking for, what kind of demand your clients and particularly at year-end, is that much better within the industrial activity?

You mean the visibility as to what our customers have in inventory? I refer to the 2 gentlemen over there or Jeroen maybe you, but I don't -- my answer would be no.

My answer is no. There's no difference.

It's so fragmented to the matter, it's really difficult to know. And actually, to some extent, in the slowdown in IB that we saw in the second half of '23 was largely destocking that we and nobody else saw coming.

Okay. And lastly, maybe an odd one, but do you expect to close the deal with Solero at October 10? Besides customary conditions, are there any other circumstances that Solero can walk away from this deal?

No. Other than acts of God or no.

[ Norweigan's Capital ]. One further question on your capital allocation proposal because you mentioned and answer that situation may be similar to the previous acquisitions you made in talk and 3T, but your share price has fallen by 32% since 2019, which means looking at the proposal you make for capital allocation, I would say that the order of play should be different and I think investment in Kendrion share -- the new Kendrion share today is, well, should rather be a preferred instead of just paying out cash dividends to your shareholder. And that would, well, make a more relevance to if you are expected to make M&A action again because then you can use your own shares as a way of financing them at more attractive levels. So what would be your views on that remark?

Well, the first -- the first question, of course, is we talk a lot about M&A, but M&A is opportunistic and happens when it happens. So if there were an option today, first of all, it's before the close of our balance sheet, we don't really support that or but shortly thereafter, that's a different situation than you say, actually, we're doing extremely well. We're on track for our targets in '27. We have further deleveraged the share price has responded and then we have an INTORQ or 3T like opportunity. We would then have to assess the situation as is. By the way, as a reminder, when we acquired INTORQ, we did a sub-10 at much better share prices than, of course, today, which I think at the time was the right thing to do. And for 3T, we did not. So these types of deliberations in our boardroom will continue to be held. It's 18 past 4. Any last question? Is there anything online still? No. Then I would like to thank you all very much for your attention and your questions, and you're all cordially invited for drinks and hopefully, a few snacks. And please take good note of the products that we have at the back. There is a solenoid that helps you, nuclear power plants from exploding. We have from AGVs. So plenty to see. Thank you very much.