Koninklijke BAM Groep nv (BAMNB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everyone. I'm Michel Aupers, Investor Relations Manager of Royal BAM Group. Welcome to everyone joining this analyst meeting here in Amsterdam or in the audio webcast. The meeting is hosted by our CEO, Ruud Joosten; and our CFO, Frans den Houter. They will make a short presentation on key points of BAM's half year results we published this morning before the stock market opened. Afterwards, they will take analyst questions. I draw your attention to the disclaimer here. Ruud, over to you, please.

Thank you, Michel, and good morning all. We invited you to join us today in the Zuidas area of Amsterdam, where we have a magnificent view of the Crossover project on the other side of the highway. It's being developed by a property developer, AM, that's under construction by BAM Wonen, both part of BAM Residential. This is a mixed-use development that includes 12,000 meters squared of high-end office space and 120 social housing apartments owned by the Housing Corporation Lieven de Key. It is energy-neutral design, uses recycled materials and incorporates green terraces and roof gardens. It was awarded the highest BREEAM rating for such a project, which is unique for the Netherlands. You may also have seen the press release last week about the [ Warehouse ] Redevelopment Amsterdam, where a former office building will be redeveloped into offices, houses and shared spaces. This is another building with strong sustainability credentials. Here are a few images to give you a full impression of the Crossover Building when it's finished in 2023. Here you see an impression of the exterior of Crossover, an impression of the complete building, and the interior of Crossover. And last but not least, an impression of the street view of the building. Crossover and [ Warehouse ] are great examples of BAM using market-leading capabilities for sustainable buildings to secure great projects that support the order book. This brings us to the main item of this morning, our half year results. I see 3 main elements underpinning our strong first half year. First, we can be pleased with the solid operational performance in both divisions, the Netherlands and U.K. and Ireland. Second, we further derisk project by selling -- by settling some claims like Museum of the Future and agreed the way forward for Afsluitdijk. And third, we closed the sales of the Belgium businesses Bam Galère and BAM Contractors and will complete the sale of Wayss & Freytag in the third quarter. Frans will discuss the numbers in a few minutes. The recovery of our capital ratio is a strong indicator that we are on track with our 3-year strategic plan. We are halfway through this 3-year strategic journey that started during the severe challenges of the pandemic. The impact of COVID has reduced, but our industry now faces a different set of headwinds. So I'm very pleased with how we have achieved so far. I would like to thank our employees for their outstanding efforts to be agile and to depth. Looking at the first pillar of the strategy. We have nearly completed the process to focus our business portfolio on a profitable growth platform with the divestments in Europe and the winding down of BAM International. For the second pillar, we have moved a long way to reducing risk in the project portfolio. For example, for not bidding on single large lump sum tenders above EUR 150 million. And we are using group-wide programs to improve operational excellence and tenders on projects. As for the third pillar, we are investing in assets, people and technologies to create life cycle solutions and sustainable environments to enhance people's lives. For example, we are building a new factory for the flow timber housing concept, which will start production next year. I will say a few words about that later. All in all, we are tracking well against 2023 strategic targets. Now a few words about the divisions. On this slide, you see the Alexiatunnel in Hilversum. The underpass is crossing the busy railway line between Hilversum and Amersfoort. This opened last week to all traffic. This aerial view of a few weeks earlier shows you the unique feature of the 2 tubes that are located one above the other. The lower tunnel tube is intended for motorized traffic, the upper one for cyclists and pedestrians. It was delivered by our Dutch Civil company, BAM Infra, where adjusted EBITDA recovered from a loss of EUR 11 million in the first half year 2021 to EUR 31 million positive this year. Overall, the Netherlands division had a good first half year, with adjusted EBITDA of nearly EUR 100 million. The improvement of the civil engineering activities, I just mentioned, is welcome progress. On top of that, we are very pleased the government has ratified the agreement for Afsluitdijk. This is in line with the provision we made for our full year 2021 results, and the revised scope of work has significantly derisked the project going forward. Dutch Construction & Property was below the exceptional strong first half year 2021, but still made a strong adjusted EBITDA. Like many industries, we have felt some pressure from inflation and supply chain, especially in nonresidential. In Dutch, residential house prices are at a good level and the market remains strong. We expect sales to increase in the second half year compared with the first half year and to sell more than 2,000 homes over the full year 2022. Moving to the division U.K. and Ireland. Results were stable in the first half year. In the U.K., Civil Engineering showed a solid performance, supported by a high activity level. UK Construction had a satisfactory half year, also reporting a small increase in revenue and a higher margin. The newly established ventures businesses which includes property UK, Ritchies, facility management, site solutions and EV charging solutions with a satisfactory contribution. These are attractive businesses with strong potential as growth platforms, and we are giving them support and resources to succeed. There were supply chain issues in the division, including some larger construction projects. We can mitigate much of this through sourcing, contract terms and pricing. Now Frans will take you through the financials.

Good morning, everyone, and I will start by repeating what Ruud just said. This was a strong first half year for BAM. From a finance perspective, I would like to highlight [Technical Difficulty] 5.5% -- the microphone was switched off. Do I need to restart or no? No. Okay. It's fine. Some technical hiccup here. The third point I would like to raise is the further derisking of the portfolio, which will improve the predictability of our results. The trade working capital efficiency, which is stable at minus 16.6%. The cash position at the year -- at June was EUR 830 million, and the capital ratio is 17.7%. Let's go to the income statement. As Ruud explained, there was a solid performance from the divisions, Netherlands and U.K. and Ireland. Our other businesses contributed EUR 24.5 million to the adjusted EBITDA, including a EUR 13 million following the Museum of the Future settlement. BAM shares of Invesis result was EUR 16 million. And as stated in the press release, we have changed the basis of accounting for Invesis hedges. So in future, there will be much less volatility on this item. Depreciation and amortization was lower due to the divestments and the decrease in interest cost reflects the repayment of the RCF and the convertible bonds in the first half year of 2021, if you compare half year on half year. Impairments of EUR 12 million related to the write-down for equipment, goodwill, some property positions and the effect of completing the Belgium divestments in the first quarter. We report a normal tax level, and the net result strongly improved to EUR 85.7 million, which equals EUR 0.31 earnings per share. Moving on to the cash flow. Cash flow from operations was strong, driven by the solid performance of the operations. And this year, we see the return of the usual seasonal cash pattern in the industry. And as such, we report a working capital outflow of EUR 272 million in the first 6 months. Although working capital declined over the first half year, trade working capital efficiency was stable at a high level of minus 16.6%, which is explained by the reduction of the revenue. In Q2, there is EUR 188 million cash reclassified as held for sale due to the Wayss & Freytag transaction. This was partly offset by the completion of the Belgium companies. The reported cash position amounts EUR 830 million. But please bear in mind, we expect to receive the proceeds from the sales of Wayss & Freytag in Q3, which will significantly improve our cash position. On this slide, I would like to highlight the strengthening of our balance sheet. Two years ago, our capital ratio was 11.3%, including the support of the subordinated convertible bond. Today, we report 17.7% without having a convertible in our balance sheet. The sale of Wayss & Freytag will bring us towards our strategic target of 20% and confirms the strong balance sheet we aimed in our strategy to support our market position. We are very pleased with the progress on this important KPI, and it reflects our improved operational performance, portfolio decisions and the focus on an efficient balance sheet. Back to you, Ruud.

Thank you, Frans. Last June, our Dutch housing building company, BAM Wonen, launched our new housing concept flow. Flow helps meet the high demand for sustainable and affordable housing. The housing concept uses timber elements as a sustainable basis instead of concrete, which are built off-site. It's sustainable because the house consists largely of timber. CO2 is stored instead of emitted. When assembling the house, we make sure that the house can be taken apart again later. So it's truly circular. This slide shows you how our prototype was assembled at our plant [indiscernible] in Lelystad. BAM is a leading homebuilder in the Netherlands. We develop over 2,000 homes each year on our own accounts. But this new concept can make a real impact in the overall Dutch market. We are pleased with the quality and level of our order book of EUR 12.2 billion, this was stable over the first half year of 2022 when you set aside the divestments of Belgium. The strong backlog secures a large part of our revenue for the rest of 2022 and 2023. So I conclude by saying we are making good progress with the strategy and are on track to deliver our targets for the year 2023. The outlook for 2022 is for a margin of at least 4%, excluding the book profit to come from the sale of Wayss & Freytag. Now we will take your questions.

Tijs Hollestelle, ING. Yes, my first question is about the Dutch Infrastructure business, indeed a solid performance as an absence of, let's say, additional project losses in the big projects division. I think we discussed it in the last meeting, the revenues are declining from the big project division. Could you, let's say, highlight how much the revenue contribution was in the first half? And what you expect for, let's say, the full year? And also what you expect, let's say, the revenues going down in the coming years? And then also, could you confirm that the remaining Dutch Infra business on the smaller projects has indeed a healthy margin already in line with your -- basically with your targets? That's the first question. Let's do them one by one, please.

Indeed correct that the large project division is getting smaller because of the fact that we don't step into large projects anymore above EUR 150 million single stage lump sum. And in the meantime, of course, the older projects are getting completed step by step. We don't go into the exact numbers for the first half year, small projects -- bigger projects. But what we can say that the future of the Infra business will be much more focused on the opportunities we see in, for example, electrification, climate change within the Dutch market anyway. And there we see a big opportunity going forward. And that strategy is being developed in more detail as we speak. Of course, happy to see at this moment already that profitability in Infra Netherlands is increasing dramatically when you take out indeed these big losses on these big projects. So in that sense, I'm really happy with where we are at this moment in time. You see the big -- the fast recovery of the results in that part of the business. And that's supporting our vision that there is a big opportunity for Infra, the Netherlands, within these sustainability segments going forward, but also linked to that, indeed, for example, electrification, where we see a lot of customers looking for our expertise and skills. I think that's a bit where we are. Of course, we were supported in the first half year as well with the settlement of the [indiscernible], but still even without that, a strong recovery in results.

And if you would look, let's say, 2 years ahead, is that an EUR 800 million revenue business or EUR 1.2 billion in smaller projects, if everything is cleaned out? You have a few...

Well, what we see is that the total Infra business is around EUR 900 million for the full year, I guess. Looking at the first half year, that's why I say I guess. EUR 200 million, EUR 250 million, in the past EUR 300 million of that was the big projects. And gradually, the big project will be phased out. And development of the new strategy and the opportunities we see, for example, in electrification, but also in dike management, for example, as one of the segments. We'll partially or completely then replace these bigger projects. So we still go for a substantial business in Infra, the Netherlands. Yes, you can calculate for yourself, if you take out gradually the EUR 250 million and then build it up with other business going forward. But it's also, I think, fair to say that we have to invest more in these segments going forward and rebalance in that sense, Infra, the Netherlands, towards this maybe smaller but more attractive and profitable businesses.

Yes. Okay. That's very clear. Yes. And then I also have a question about -- because of all the disposals, it's still a bit, messy is not a very friendly word, but it's difficult to see the full, let's say, continued business performance. So the way I look at it, let's say, also next year when your the deadline for your target is, but maybe 1 year later, if you're completely finished, we're looking at the performance of the division in the Netherlands and then the U.K. and Ireland. And what kind of normalized other costs or income are you calculating with? Because the PFI division now also reported an exceptional results, but are there, let's say, structural holding costs. So what should we use for our, let's say, modeling of the adjusted EBITDA of only the continued business? So assuming yet you dispose everything you want to dispose today.

Yes. So I think on the Invesis, BAM PPP -- formally known in BAM PPP, we've completed a transaction there. And as such, the income is quite modest because you take a lot of the upside in the transaction. So EUR 4 million to EUR 5 million recurring income on that one is realistic. Indeed, as you say, we had a lot of volatility from the hedges in the first quarter. That was a technical issue that we resolved. So that is not a recurring component. And then on the other miscellaneous, yes, that typically is always a bit around 0 on a PBT level. But then correcting for depreciations, we have there, you come on a EUR 10 million EBITDA. So those, I think, are the 2 main components. And then, of course, indeed, as you say, we completed the divestment portfolio. We will still have Belgium Construction & Property in our portfolio that we want to make a profitable healthy business, and that is EUR 150 million turnover, and we are happy with the small margin there for the coming period.

Okay. And then a final question for now at least. I understand, let's say, the lumpiness of the residential businesses or a relatively low number of [indiscernible] houses in the first half. You provide guidance for the full year, 2,000 houses. I guess that your visibility also on the operating income for the second half is quite okay. And that is excluding what's currently happening outside with the higher interest rates because I'm personally quite worried that there will be kind of a dip in the Dutch residential market. So what are your, let's say, internal scenarios on what might happen to the residential business next year because it's a long time ago that we have seen, let's say, a market downturn, and that was in 2009, and it was quite severe. So I don't believe it will be that bad, but can you give us a little bit of guidance what kind of bandwidth we should expect? And the reason I'm asking is because it's your most profitable business within the overall group.

Clear. I think the 1 million dollar question at this moment in time, a lot of things happening there, increasing interest rates, inflation, some countries going into recession. Luckily, yesterday in the Dutch environment, we saw that it was not as bad in Q2. And that's also the link to how I look at the market at this moment in time. We see still structurally huge demand for homes in the Netherlands. The deficit of 900,000 homes is still there. So structurally, the demand is there, and people just want to have a home, of course, so that will not change. So as we maybe -- over the last years, I've seen a situation where we built or we developed a home or house and there were 17 buyers ready to buy it, maybe now it's 8. So yes, maybe the highest pressure is a bit gone, but the demand is still extremely high and prices are still very good. And that's the short-term outlook for this business going forward. And it's more that the lack of permitting and the opportunity to develop more homes is the bottleneck then that we cannot sell these houses to buyers. So again, I see these effects, too. Long term, the demand is there, the 1 million or 900,000 homes deficit. How can we manage it in the meantime will be an interesting game between government taking more, let's say, direction in permitting and zoning, maybe also pushing a bit more to out of city building projects, not only looking at inner-city opportunities. Then there can be an acceleration and maybe even we can build more homes in the coming years because I think when demand is there, for such an important thing as living, a home for people, I think we can sell these houses if we can build them. That's how I look at the, let's say, short and midterm situation in the Dutch home market.

Yes. And one of the things I also noticed is that, I mean, because you're building new houses, you're the ones who can, let's say, provide more affordable homes. But if the mortgage rate is just too high for the average consumer, but how quickly is BAM able to switch to those kind of -- maybe it's not the most profitable offering, but yes, at least you can, let's say, lower the size of the house or using a bit less quality materials, et cetera, in order to lower the...

Yes, absolutely. I think we can play a very good role there. And one of the things we introduced this year is the Flow concept, which is a wooden affordable, sustainable house concept, building concept. It plays an important role that we are building a factory at this moment in time. Now we can scale it up and really have a very flexible way, flexible form of delivering sustainable, affordable housing in the Dutch market. So indeed, yes, it's about how much permits, how much development can be realized in the Dutch market going forward. So I think a company like BAM is not a bottleneck in that sense. But yes, things need to come together a little bit to accelerate. For now, I think for the outlook for this year, I think, indeed more than 2,000 homes are what we see at this moment in time going forward, and we don't see a very negative development in 2023 in that sense.

[indiscernible], ABN AMRO. Coming back to the homes outlook. So more than 2,000 this year, will it be lower or higher next year in your view? And related to that, do you already see any acceleration because of the, let's say, new government plans being developed or exactly vice versa effect?

Well, that's an extremely important indeed, additional remark from your side because that makes a big difference. We are very happy with the fact that the Dutch government appointed the Minister, especially for this big crisis because, I think, it is a big crisis. And indeed, strong governmental direction can really accelerate demand and opportunity here. Demand is there, but the opportunity to really realize these homes. So in that sense, difficult to do all kind of predictions for next year in that sense. Already for this year, I think, yes, we can make the 2,000-plus statement for our business. And let's hope we get the acceleration that we all need in the Dutch market. And we're talking with the Minister, also represented by BAM Netherlands, but also from our side as BAM to play our role and together accelerate the permitting situation in the Netherlands.

This may be logical to assume first, let's say, the kind of freeze everyone waiting the new plants. And once the new plants come in, then the acceleration, so maybe a dip '23 and then hopefully, recovery '24?

No. That's for me speculation. I see opportunity here. When there is a strong demand, yes, I think we should be able in this country to realize homes, affordable homes for people. I think we should be able to do that. We have the products in-house. I mentioned Flow, but also our existing assortment. So we are flexible in that sense. It's just a matter of -- yes, can we work together as 1 player in this complex field together with government bodies to get the permitting right. And that's the bottleneck at this moment in time. But I don't see at this moment a big dip coming up, all the demand is still there. We are doing our best to develop these numbers of homes also next year.

Okay. Next question on people. I think that maybe the scarce resource in the market as a whole, at least in the Netherlands, are finding the right people? How are you looking at that?

Yes, absolutely. That's also a bit schizophrenic that people are talking about recession. But at the same time, there is a huge deficit of resources, of people. And of course, we are also impacted by that, but also in the supply chain, this is a big thing. For ourselves as a company, we can still find good people, and it also has to do with the fact that we are an attractive party to work with. We have a strong footprint in the Netherlands, but also in the U.K. and Ireland. And more and more, we see that our sustainability footprint and strategy is attracting people. So in that sense, a lot of, let's say, the next generation will choose for a company like BAM, which has strong intention and strategy on sustainability. But that doesn't take away that there is, of course, a structural shortage of people in the Dutch market. Till now, we can build indeed, I think, partially based on our brands. We have the resources in place to build what we need to build, but sometimes we're also having this problem in the Netherlands. But if you look at our numbers, we can still cope with it at this moment in time.

Okay. Clear. Then I think you promised or we're looking at potentially again paying a dividend. Can you remind us on dividend policy, and what kind of metrics you need?

So there is indeed a clear statement here. We expect to propose a dividend over the full year. There's no reference to an amount or policy, but there is a dividend policy in the company that we communicate, which reached 30% to 50% of net result.

Okay. Clear. A final question for now maybe on Belgium, although small, at least my colleague noted slightly below expectations. Maybe you can give me the reason why? And a related question is, is the sea lock IJmuiden project still part of your exposure or not?

Sorry, what was your first question on Belgium?

The performance according Martijn was slightly below his expectations. So...

So we don't agree with it. I don't know what his expectation is. But Germany, Belgium International, we report on one line, and that is EUR 24.5 million of EBITDA. And there is -- the Belgium business is reported in there. And as we said, we are pretty okay with the performance of the Belgium.

Germany was probably [indiscernible].

The [indiscernible] project is part of Infra. So partly part of them contractors in Belgium that was sold to a company called [indiscernible] in the first quarter. So that's not part of the C&P part that we kept in our company.

And that's now completely gone also...

Yes, that was completed in Q1.

But to be complete, again, partially, that project is also realized by Infra, the Netherlands. So [indiscernible] is still in the portfolio of Infra, the Netherlands, to complete in the next period.

Tim Ehlers from Kepler Cheuvreux. So you already mentioned the permitting issue talking about nitrogen. Do you see -- what do you expect there? Because you could see that the numbers of permits issued in Q2 dropped quite significantly, at least in the meantime. What do you expect going forward happening there? There may be also some political adjustments to push the number of houses built or what's your take?

Yes, it's a very complex issue as well on top of the already, let's say, difficult permitting situation in the Netherlands. We have the nitrogen issue as well on top of that. And yes, I think it's very important, again, that Central Government takes central direction there and tries to come to, let's say, compromises with all parties involved. I think that's how we should run this country altogether. And for the building industry, of course, very important to get more flexibility there, which is especially true for the Infra industry as part of the Netherlands, but also it can have impact indeed on the housing situation and the building of houses in the Netherlands. Till now that was for BAM, not dramatically impacted our business, but it can change, of course. And indeed, the last couple of days, intensive discussions were taking place between -- also with representatives of the industry and the government to come to solutions for this. That is clearly true. On the other hand, I don't want to make it too big for BAM looking at our outlook for this year and the fact that we are on track to realize our strategy. But of course, linked to the general permitting situation, it will be really good if Central Government indeed brings people together. There is a special minister as well for nitrogen as for the home -- housing crisis in the Netherlands. So I was really pleased to see that I think today, there is [indiscernible] and governmental discussion where all these ministers are sitting together, including the Prime Minister. So I'm really anxious to see what's coming out there because I think you really need to look at this as an integrated problem and try to be very clear in, let's say, positive next steps where everybody evolved can live with. I think that's really important for the Netherlands.

Okay. Maybe little bit sensitive for Dutch. But looking at the issues with farmers and the potential of land that maybe gets available there, do you see some opportunities to increase your land bank and maybe acquire some land then might have to give up? You have to be given up by the farmers or that's not a scenario you would think about right now?

Well, I don't want to get into a discussion with the Dutch farmers, and I have a lot of respect for these people. They invested a lot of money, and I do sympathize with that group as well. It's extremely difficult. But on the other hand, yes, what I said before, I think it is important to also look at opportunities for outside city building if we really want to get to the numbers that we need in this country. So we need to find a balance. We need to find a compromise altogether to look at opportunities and in a balanced way. And I think that is really possible, we did it in the past. So let's try to do that again.

All right. Then going to Infra, I mean, the strategy you try to pursue, it's not really new to the industry. That's something you see in other companies as well that they try to derisk the portfolio and go for smaller projects also to nationalize the operations a little bit more. In the market, do you see less competitions through international players? Do you maybe also going forward see an opportunity tender for bigger projects again because you can see some movements by the politicians that they say, okay, we have to make some agreements with the builders to be able to go for big projects again because we don't find any companies that want to go for them? So maybe some margin potential there going forward.

Yes. Well, what we said before, we are not against big projects. In the U.K. division, we tender huge projects, but that all has to do with the procurement route and the contract forms. And if there is a way we can get to a realistic profitability for the sector and the predictable profitability, we will step in, and that's how I look at it. And if we provide extremely important strategic infrastructure to a rich country, I think we should be rewarded for it. Until that moment, we will not step into this project.

All right, clear. And then one last question, a smaller one. Regarding the scarcity of talent and what do you expect about the wages going forward also with adjustment to inflation and then more negotiation power by the workforce regarding the scarcity and the increase in cost of living? Do you expect a significant increase there? Or is it not significant for you?

Well, looking at our 2 divisions, for next year, the first negotiations took place with the big unions in the Netherlands for our industry and that ended at 5% increase for -- from the next year, which is, I think, a realistic number looking at the inflation numbers we see. U.K. discussions are still going on, but I expect, well, that's a bit speculation, but probably based on the Dutch experience, it will be around the same numbers. And that's important for us to know because if we know these numbers, we can, of course, calculate that within our tenders and move forward.

[indiscernible] ABN AMRO. You seem very well positioned in the residential market with your new housing concepts and projects. At the same time, you published a number of 1,446 sold homes in the first half year. When you look at that number, can you elaborate a bit on how many homes are sold to owner occupiers or otherwise depart which was sold to investors? And will that change looking into the future regarding the difficulties in the residential markets? And what kind of flexibility do you have there?

Well, you're absolutely right. That number is impacted by who is buying these homes indeed, and that can give an acceleration or a decrease of the number in certain periods, that's absolutely true. We don't have these -- we don't give these details within these numbers. But indeed, last year, that mix was a little bit different than this year. So that gave an effect on the total number, that's absolutely true. But again, we give the outlook for the year more than 2,000 homes, which is based on what we know today. And hopefully, we can increase that number dramatically if we get the opportunity, like I said before, with more permitting and designated areas where we can build these homes, especially from our new Flow concept, which I really think is a revolution in building homes. For many decades, we built only concrete structured homes very successful and still we do that. But this Flow concept is really, yes, circular design going forward. And yes, the combination of the flexibility of that and affordability with the strong demand, I think, is a nice mix.

Could you please say something about -- regarding your housing concepts? Are those housing concepts also attractive for investors? Or are they primarily focused on owner occupiers or will serve both?

Yes. I think they are interested for, let's say, everybody was interested in homes living there or investing in them. For now, there are homes, so they're not yet, let's say, developed into high-rises or big apartment buildings. But of course, that will be the next step in the innovation of wooden building, wooden construction, timber construction within the market.

Maarten Verbeek, The Idea. Firstly, in the press release, you specifically mentioned that you have started a constructive dialogue with -- for settlement of the National Children's Hospital. Have you arrived in the new status? Should we expect the settlement in the next half year? Or could you give some more color on this item?

It's a large project, and there's a lot of media attention for it. And in the Irish portfolio, it's definitely the main project. So we thought it would be good to also expand to the market where we are with this project, so 71% completion. It's a state-of-the-art hospital. So we're really proud that we can contribute to building it. And there is a lot of discussion about extra work and variation orders and design. And yes, we -- it is, as we say in the press release, we're in a dialogue with the client, and we don't put a timing on an expectation of an outcome there.

And when do you expect to complete this project?

It will be completed Q2 '24 in the current plan.

Two other problems, which have been labeled as risk project, Brunsbüttel and [indiscernible]. Although with Brunsbüttel, you had settlement. You also reduced your position by selling Wayss & Freytag and BAM Contractors that has reduced your position. Have you also had to provide guarantees when you sold these businesses? Or that's all been included in the selling price?

Yes. So maybe just for completion, Brunsbüttel will be completely sold with the transaction that we will do. So the Infra -- the former Infra part is handed over to -- will be handed over to the new owner of the company. So that one will be out of the portfolio. And then the other question was, sorry?

It was on the [indiscernible] project whereby contractors also own the stake in this project and that's been sold?

Yes, that's been sold. But -- okay, that's...

[indiscernible] remaining position through -- the question is had you provide guarantees when you sold Contractors or it has been discounted for in the selling price?