Koninklijke BAM Groep nv (BAMNB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to the BAM Analyst Call Half Year Results 2025. Today's call is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I will now hand you over to Michel Aupers, Manager Investor Relations. -- to begin today's conference. Please go ahead.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Michel Aupers, Investor Relations Manager at Royal BAM Group. Welcome to everyone joining this audio webcast. The meeting is hosted by our CEO, Ruud Joosten; and our CFO, Henry Pater. They will give a short presentation on the key points of BAM's results for the first half year of 2025. There might be an issue now with presenting the slides on -- via our website but the slides are also available on the Investor Relations section of our website. So that's the possibility to follow the presentation. The slides -- so now I will draw your attention to the disclaimer, and then over to Ruud.

Thank you, Michel. Sorry for the delay, everyone, in the call. Fortunately, there's nothing to do with our results today. But anyhow, thank you for bearing with us. We are proud to highlight one of our key contributions to the future of the Dutch energy infrastructure, the new 380 kV high-voltage connection between Borssele and Rilland, and this is indeed on the first slide. So I hope you can see that one. This project is part of our EUR 367 million multiyear framework agreement, a vital initiative aimed at strengthening and expanding the Dutch electricity grids to meet the growing demand for sustainable energy. BAM Infra Nederland plays a crucial role in this development. This project reflects our commitment to innovation, reliability and building a resilient energy network for generations to come. Let's start with the key points of the first half year. The group has delivered a strong performance in the first 6 months of 2025, which reflects the success of our growth strategy and our core strength in the energy transition, transportation and the Dutch residential markets. Our reported adjusted EBITDA increased by 40% to EUR 176 million. This was the result of a 7% increase of revenues and a substantial improvement of our adjusted EBITDA margin from 4% to 5.2%. We are proud that we can present a net result of EUR 102 million, which is an 85% increase versus the first half year of '24. All our activities contributed well, highlighting the resilience and effectiveness of our business model. We also made further progress with our legacy projects. We handed over the last school project in Denmark and finalized the Co-op Live arena in the United Kingdom. Our other key performance indicators also remained solid. We maintained a strong financial position by focusing on projects with an attractive risk/reward balance, along with effective cost and working capital management. This has resulted in a robust solvency and liquidity position. It's good to see that our order book was maintained at a high level of EUR 12.9 billion. A substantial part of our recent project wins aligned with our strategic objective to expand in sustainable solutions, while we remain focused on the quality of the order intake. Looking ahead, for 2025, we are now expecting an adjusted EBITDA margin of at least 5%. This is an upgrade versus the outlook we provided in May, which was an adjusted EBITDA margin of around 5%. Now let's look at the performance of the 2 divisions. Next image illustrates a prime example of BAM's expanding electric vehicle fleet. The new electric tractor developed in-house is currently in use at Schiphol Airport. By electrifying our equipment, we reduced the emissions and enhance our competitive edge as a sustainability leader, allowing us to meet the rising demand for emission-free construction. In April, our contract with Schiphol Amsterdam Airport was extended by 3 years. This reaffirmed our position as a trusted partner in maintaining and developing vital airport infrastructure and assets. Our integrated approach, extensive experience at Schiphol and shared commitment to sustainability and innovation supports Schiphol's ambition to be a leading and sustainable international hub. The division Netherlands reported a 10% increase of revenues and the reported adjusted EBITDA improved substantially to EUR 110 million, reflecting a margin of 6.7%. The improved performance was driven by the high production in nonresidential construction. Also, the last project in Denmark was handed over. Residential property development activities continue to contribute well. We sold 692 homes, and we made 917 houses more sustainable in the first 6 months. For the full year, we anticipate that the number of homes sold will exceed the 1,850 of last year. Also, our civil engineering activities continue to perform well. Moving on to the division U.K. and Ireland. On this slide, you see Woodmill High School in Dunfermline. This month, BAM has received certificates from Passive House Institute for Woodmill and St. Columbus High School. Passive House is a worldwide operating institute that certifies researchers and promotes energy efficiency. This is now the largest certified passive house education building in the world. In the first half year, we decided to simplify our organization in the division United Kingdom and Ireland by integrating the activities of Ventures U.K. into the other 3 businesses. This should further enhance our efficiency. Now over to the results. Division United Kingdom and Ireland reported an adjusted EBITDA of EUR 66 million, 1/3 higher compared to last year and reflecting a margin of 4%. I'm pleased that Construct U.K. returned to profitability, and we recently finalized Co-op Live in Manchester. Our other businesses in the United Kingdom and Ireland performed very well. Civil Engineering U.K. continued at its high productivity level, especially in rail and projects related to the energy transition. Ireland also had a solid contribution and is successful in the residential market. Our already well-filled order book increased by 2% to EUR 7.4 billion. Now Henry will elaborate on the financials.

Thank you, Ruud, and good morning, everyone. On this slide, you see Amsterdam Central Station, a natural heritage site on one of the busiest transport hubs in the Netherlands. By 2030, the number of daily train passengers is expected to rise from 200,000 to 275,000. To meet this growing demand, we have partnered with ProRail to create more space for both passengers and trains. And over the past 2 years, we have successfully completed a major upgrade, the redesign of the entrance to the Western passenger tunnel, the widening of the platforms and the modernization of technical installations. This morning, we reported an adjusted EBITDA of EUR 176 million, which translates into a margin of 5.2%. Other highlights are the backlog of EUR 12.9 billion, a solvency of 73% and a liquidity position of EUR 0.5 billion. These numbers confirm the success of implementing our strategy and was delivered by good performance of all business activities. Also, our performance supported BAM to return EUR 93 million via dividends and the running share buyback program to shareholders in the first half of 2025. Let's zoom in on some details of our income statement. Group revenue was up by 7%, and it's good to see that both divisions contribute to the top line growth. Compared to last year, our reported adjusted EBITDA improved by 40%. This was a result of the increase of revenues in combination with a substantial higher adjusted EBITDA margin of 5.2%. The announced divestment of our 50% remaining stake in Invesis was completed on the 25th of March. Depreciation and amortization totaled EUR 71 million. The increase is, among others, a reflection of our increased investments last year in sustainable and modular solutions, including the continued electrification of our plants and equipment. Our finance result is EUR 3.5 million higher compared to last year. This is mainly explained by interest income related to the payment arrangements with PGGM for the divestment of our Invesis stake. The tax in our profit and loss account is EUR 11 million, which implies an effective tax rate of 10%. This low tax rate is the result of the revaluation of our deferred tax assets for the tax losses as part of our regular reassessment. For the full year, we expect a tax rate between 10% to 14%. Bottom line, BAM reports a net income of EUR 102 million. This is almost a doubling of our earnings per share to EUR 0.39 versus the EUR 0.20 reported a year ago. Moving on to the cash flow statement. The operational performance resulted in a strong cash flow from operations of EUR 151 million. In the first half year, the cash flow from working capital was EUR 266 million negative. This reflects the normal seasonal pattern of trade working capital and included also EUR 90 million of investments in our residential development positions like in Bilthoven [indiscernible]. To put things in perspective, in the comparable period last year, our investment was limited to EUR 2 million. It's good to see that trade working capital efficiency slightly improved to minus 12.3% versus the minus 11.7% at year-end of 2024. The net cash flow of investing activities was on balance 0. And to mention the largest building blocks, our capital expenditures was EUR 46 million, and BAM received the first tranche of the EUR 54 million related to the divestment of Invesis. The second tranche of the same amount is expected before the end of the year. Cash flow from financing activities of minus EUR 111 million included the payment of dividend in cash of EUR 66 million and the share buyback totaling EUR 27 million. The remainder of the cash flow from financing relates to leases and an increase of debt to fund new development positions. Our liquidity position remains solid at EUR 0.5 billion, which is comparable with our position mid-2024. Next to our financial position. Our net cash position after lease liabilities of EUR 153 million is around the same level as last year. Shareholders' equity was slightly lower versus full year of 2024, which is mainly explained by the payment of dividend this year fully in cash and the start of our share buyback program in May. Our solvency is 23%, the same level compared to full year of 2024. We had a strong net result in the first half of the year of EUR 102 million but in the first half year, we also distributed EUR 93 million to the shareholders via dividends and share buybacks. Now back to you, Ruud.

Thank you, Henry. I would like to conclude with the market trends and our outlook for full year 2025. Here, we show you a photo of the works we execute on the Transpennine Route Upgrade, one of the largest investments in England's rail infrastructure. We are pleased with the development of our order book, which was maintained at a high level of EUR 12.9 billion. This while we continue to focus strongly on order book quality and selective tendering in key markets where we have a proven competitive advantage. Now over to the market trends. In the Netherlands, the residential market remained strong, driven by stable consumer confidence. The nonresidential market is cautiously optimistic, specifically in the health care, education and office sector. In civil, there are many attractive growth opportunities driven by the energy transition and the transport market. There remains a strong rationale for essential investment in energy transition, infrastructure, defense and sustainable and affordable homes. The construction market in the United Kingdom is also expected to grow. Energy security remains a key focus for the U.K. government. The recently announced 10-year infrastructure strategy from the U.K. government is also positive. And like in the Netherlands, investments in defense are expected to rise as well. In Ireland, there's also a solid demand for transport and social infrastructure. The Irish government launched a new task force to oversee the department's program for reform to unblock barriers and accelerate infrastructure delivery. Delivering complex infrastructure projects and new homes are essential for creating thriving communities, but this requires stability, clear planning and commitment beyond short-term political agendas. Now over to the outlook for the full year. We continue our disciplined contract and risk management approach, which is a fundamental priority within our strategy to enhance our financial performance and predictability. For 2025, BAM expects to deliver an adjusted EBITDA of at least 5%, which is an upgrade versus the outlook we provided in May when we published our first quarter trading update. Now we will take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] And our first question today comes from Martijn Drijver from ABN AMRO.

I have 4 questions. I'll take them one by one, if I may. And my first question is just looking at your adjusted EBITDA margin, 5.2%. If you take out that claim settlement in Germany, which is roughly EUR 2 million, EUR 3 million, you've done underlying 5.3% in H1. Now in the last 2 years, your H2 EBITDA margin has been over 100 basis points better than your first half EBITDA margin. And if I were solely to add H2 2024 to your current H1 2025, I would get closer to 6% than 5%. So what is causing that relatively cautious guidance upgrade from around 5% to at least 5%? What is keeping you back? That's question one.

Okay. Well, maybe I first take this one, Martijn. Indeed, you know as we always try to underpromise and overdeliver. So that's also part of this. We don't see, let's say, at this moment in time, reasons to believe that our results or revenue will not develop well, also looking at the order book in the second half of the year. But it's also clear that there is still uncertainty politically, especially in the Netherlands and also in the world. So in that sense, we stay a little bit cautious and of course, try to surprise you again by the end of the year.

Okay. So it's just your normal indeed behavior with regards to underpromise and over deliver. Got it. Then my second question is on the Dutch civil engineering activities, you mentioned it had a good performance. But if I look at the adjusted EBITDA margin, it was 4.7% this semester, where it was usually between 6% and 7%. So half year last year was 6.5%. So why has that EBITDA margin dropped quite a bit actually in the first half?

I'd like to answer this question. I think that's really a fair challenge. As you said, we are operating on a level of 4.6%, which is still healthy and in line with our projections. If you are comparing the figures also, let's say, with the same period a year ago, at that moment in time, we saw some one-offs, completion of larger and a couple of other projects as well. We saw in the first half of 2025, a lower or slower start, specifically in roadworks, and we are still expecting an acceleration in the second half. So overall, still satisfied with the performance of our Dutch civil engineering activities.

Okay. So no difference between the large projects business and the, let's call it, the regional ones. The performance is equal in both?

Yes.

Okay. Moving on. My third question is with regards to Construct U.K. You've made our lives quite a bit more difficult by transferring these businesses again. So Facility Management and Property Development is now included in Construct U.K. If you were to exclude those, was BAM Construct U.K. actually profitable at the EBITDA level? And when do you -- if it wasn't, when do you expect Construct U.K. to get to those margins that you need in order for BAM overall to get to 5%, 6%?

No. Indeed, that percent wise, it doesn't make a big difference because indeed, there was a huge increase in profitability of construct on its own. And to be honest, of course, that also had to do with the finalization of the Co-op Live project in Manchester because we reported on that one. We had some other disappointments in construct over the last couple of years. And these disappointments or disappointed projects, better to say, are now out of the order book. So we are now focusing again on profitable projects, being very selective in tendering going forward. We have some very attractive tenders coming in. So also stand-alone, without the ventures results, there's a strong recovery in U.K. country.

Okay. Got it. And then my fourth question. I was slightly puzzled. This is a question for Henry, puzzled by the working capital cash out of EUR 266 million and it was lower last year, even though your trade working capital has actually become more negative, which is positive when you grow and you've grown. So how can working capital cash outflows be more negative if you have a positive trend in your working capital -- in your trade working capital?

Martijn, the main driver is additional investments in our property business. So you already said something about it. We included EUR 90 million of investments in property, which is reported on the line item working capital. If you compare it to the same period in 2024 at that moment in time, as already said, we invested just EUR 2 million. So I think it's more positive if you compare that with the same period a year ago and really positive to be able to invest in the EUR 90 million of property position, which is really helpful to drive that business going forward as well.

Correct. I had not fully realized that. I have 2 more other questions but I'll go back into the queue for now.

And our next question now comes from Maarten Verbeek from The IDEA.

Maarten Verbeek from IDEA. Firstly, you have completed and handed over the Danish School project and Co-op live in Manchester. Did you have to take additional costs for that because there were still some issues in Denmark that much, but still the co-op one -- or did you provision for all of that already last year?

The answer is yes.

Provisioning all last year?

Yes. There were no additional costs in this half year in this quarter.

With regard to the Rolls-Royce joint venture for SMRs, could you give us some kind of indication how much work for BAM that involves in revenues?

Yes. I think that's -- you have to see that we are, let's say, having the IP on a system that we developed for an overarching building when the people of Rolls-Royce are building the nuclear installation. So after the completion of the nuclear installation, this BAM temporary building will be removed. So that are, let's say, substantial -- that will be substantial investments for these temporary buildings. But of course, it all depends as well on the number of these smaller nuclear plants that will be built all over Europe, which is the plan anyway by Rolls-Royce, of course. So probably it will start with a couple of these installations in the U.K. to be tested. And of course, it's not -- it's linked to all kind of permitting and investment by the U.K. government, and they now announced EUR 30 billion to be available for that investment. So it seems there is progress there. And maybe by the end of '27 or early '28, we will see the first of these test installations coming through within the United Kingdom. And then there are, let's say, if that happens for BAM, it will be in the hundreds of millions coming into our revenue stream.

And then lastly for now, the National Children's Hospital, do you expect that to be completed before year-end?

Yes. That's true. The question or...

Now this question. And then as a follow-up, do you also expect a complete settlement on all the costs with the National Children's Hospital that will be settled as well before year-end?

I think we discussed this hospital now, I think, anyway for me for the fifth year in a row in these meetings. And of course, we like to complete it as soon as possible. We are very proud of the result of what we are doing over there. But the fact of the matter is that the customer is coming with design changes all the time still now. And that means that we -- as a build-only company, we have to implement all these changes. And that leads to delay on delay on delay. So where we are now looking at the change orders we have in our portfolio, we plan to hand over the project, the building before the end of the year. And then there is still discussion, of course, on additional cost for all these changes with the customer.

And lastly, I just would like to get back to the SMR. This initial order, I presume it's not yet in your order book.

No, in our order book are only signed contracts.

And from ING, we now have Tijs Hollestelle with our next question.

I also had a question on the U.K. Building division because I feel a bit wrong footed because I thought in the morning, there were more results out that, okay, I'm glad that this is in the positive territory. But what I understand now is that the complete venture revenue results being incorporated in the building business of the U.K. So there is still an operating loss underneath something between minus 15% and minus 5%. Is that correct?

This is Henry. That isn't correct. So if you talk about the Facility Management business and property, which is included now in the Construct U.K. line item, then we are talking about lower level of revenues and results. So Construct U.K. only without Facility Management and the Property business is acting on a positive level now, although it's still low but they are moving to 2.5% EBITDA.

Okay. And let's say, the historic performance before the losses were reported was an average EBITDA margin of about 3% for that building business in the U.K. Is that something we can expect to go back to in the second half? Or it will happen more gradually the recovery?

Yes. So we are making incremental steps but I think it's good to note if you're talking about the backlog and the order intake, then we are acting and trading on that level already.

Okay. And then I have another question. In the Dutch division, there is a EUR 3.9 million result in other. What is that result?

Can you repeat the question?

In the Dutch division, in the segment order, there's a EUR 3.9 million EBITDA contribution. What is that.

Yes, there are always, let's say, on the consolidation level of a division, some other results, which has to do, for example, with eliminations like internal equipment revenues and those kind of stuff.

That's a kind of a one-off?

Yes, if you compare it also in previous years, it's normalized around 0.

Okay. Yes. And then I also had a question about the dynamics in the Dutch Building and Property division. So I understand that part of the quite massive improvement year-on-year comes from the Danish school projects no longer impacting profits negatively. But I also noticed that there was quite a drop in the sold houses volume, something like 70%. I know that pricing is strong and that you have good projects but you're also mentioning in the press release that you expect a higher full year number of houses to be sold. Is that now reflecting, let's say, Dutch market conditions? Or is that purely based on what BAM has the projects at hand? So can you explain a little bit what the drivers are here?

Yes, I think it's a fair question. The dynamics are still strong. And we also talked about it, of course, many times, it could have been much better with more positions and permitting, let's say, speed of the Dutch government, nitrogen issues, what have you. But still, looking at our flow -- deal flow for the second half of the year, we are confident about this, let's say, target of above 1,850 houses. And I'm also happy to say that over the last week, we signed a deal with an investor for almost 500 homes. So that already gives us a kind of a nice basis of around 1,200 or more than that even for the second half of the year. So I think based on our -- indeed, our stream of deals that we see, the 1,850 is reasonable, and that's why we are pretty comfortable to make that statement today.

Yes. So the first half profitability is kind of a good reflection for how it is going with BAM projects and also with the underlying market condition, good proxy for profitability going forward.

Yes. I think you're right, there are many dynamics playing in that segment, of course, because you have indeed, on one hand, the positive news that we got rid of the Danish business. And on the other hand, we see also very good progress in the nonresidential business in the Netherlands, which is also part of these numbers. So when you see there that our strategy of focusing on lower risk and higher profitability projects is really working. So -- and then on top of that, the stable results in the residential part of the business, yes, when you add that all up, you get business.

[Operator Instructions] Next, we now move to Tim Ehlers from Kepler Cheuvreux.

The first one would be about Ireland. In the press release, not really in the presentation, you're talking about residential activities that you do there and that you expect to build, if I'm not fully wrong, 300 houses in Ireland this year, which will represent roughly 30% of what you do in the Netherlands. Is that a market that you plan to grow a bit, so basically that you diversify your residential activities? Because in the past, you were not really active in any other regions with regards to that. Yes, how should we look at that?

Tim, fair challenge, fair question, of course. It's already an existing market, and there is a lot of appetite over there as well. And we own a land bank for years, and we are now developing the bank. Hence, we are bringing a house to the market already lots and lots of apartments together with a government body, so to say. And we are also, let's say, selling private houses to private customers, trading out that land bank that is currently, as already said, part of our business.

Okay. Great. And are you planning to replenish that land bank, grow the land bank or basically just selling what you have?

The first challenge is already, let's say, taking care of the current land bank before talking about, let's say, all the kind of new strategic options.

Okay. Great. Then another question would be about the cash flow. So I mean, it looks like normal seasonal pattern, if you would adjust for the increase in inventories from the residential project in Bilthoven of the EUR 90 million. How should we look at it at the full year? Should we expect an improvement versus last year, assuming that the increase in inventories will be offset by the EUR 100 million cash in from investors, of which you already got a 50% tranche. And then, just looking at operations, which should be -- cash flow from operations, which should be higher, so it should be quite a step-up.

Yes, fair challenge. So current cash position is EUR 0.5 billion. And in that cash position, as already mentioned, so we invested EUR 90 million in our property positions, but also we paid EUR 93 million to our shareholders. If you talk about the dividend, if you compare that with 2024, all in cash, but also the share buyback program. There's always a seasonal pattern in the upcoming period, but we are expecting to ramp up also in the second half in line with our projections. And it's also a bit depending upon opportunities in the market. If you're talking about additional investments, for example, in property, they will be incorporated in those outlooks going forward as well.

Okay. Clear. And then one last question about the legacy projects. Probably already know the answer, but any updates on the projects that you don't mention in the press release, so besides Ireland and besides Denmark, could you share any details there? And is it still on track to, well, clean up the portfolio outside or other than the Fehmarnbelt tunnel in this year?

No, I think we mentioned before that the list of these legacy projects was decreasing fast. I think we mentioned the number of 23 of these projects 5 years ago. Today, you can see a very short list. We are finalizing indeed the new Children Hospital this year. Then we still have the Metro in Brisbane that we are also finalizing now that will take a little bit longer. And I think then in the end, there is the Fehmarnbelt project where we have a 12.5% stake, and that's a big beast and that will only be finalized in 2030, maybe '31. So we will come back to that when there is news or developments. We are now preparing the first immersion of the tunnel elements into the sea. So hopefully, that can start after summer. And hopefully, we can give you some more operational details then about that project.

Okay. There would have been a follow-up question on the Fehmarnbelt tunnel. So there is this milestone where they put the first elements into the water and that would be after summer and that would give a bit more clarity how things would progress, right? So it's something to...

I think that's a really important -- Yes. I think, Tim, that's an important moment for the project, of course, because then you start the immersion process. And hopefully, we can then also give some more information on planning of that project and see where we are financially as well.

And we now have a follow-up question from Martijn den Drijver from ABN AMRO.

Henry, why was there a delay with the PGGM payment for Invesis because it was supposed to be in the cash flow to be received in Q2, at least that was the last guidance.

There was no delay, Martijn. So the first payment was paid before the end of the first half, and the second one will be paid before year-end. So it is absolutely in line with the signed contract.

Okay. Then moving on to BAM Construct. The question Tijs asked the historical margin, can we go back to that? You said based on order intake, we're roughly trading at that level. Is that the ambition level? Or do you think you can improve that further given the increased focus on the educational and health care segment?

Yes. I think it's a combination of risk and profitability. The idea is that we focus indeed not on the, let's say, big sexy projects like Sky Studios and Co-op Live in Manchester. Indeed, we go for the, let's say, longer-term framework contracts with British government, for example, for health care and education. And then we're not looking at schools of hundreds of millions but maybe more, let's say, EUR 50 million to EUR 100 million and schools that are, let's say, similar to each other, so we can use a little bit more industrial approach there as well. That's what we're going for. And that means a little bit higher margin, but also lower risk. So that combination, I think, leads to the conclusion that we'll look for a little bit higher margin, but especially with the low risk levels.

Got it. Got it. And then on the Dutch non-resi, which was strong. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Which segment drove that strong performance? And if you look at your order book backlog, is that sustainable in the coming 6, 12, 18 months?

Yes, absolutely. So when you look at that period, I think you will see the same development for that segment. What we did a couple of years is that ago, we said goodbye to smaller projects with higher risk levels where we could not really add our specialty. So in that segment, we are looking for the more complex projects where we can add our sustainability knowledge, for example. Like, for example, the ABN AMRO new headquarters that you probably know very well in Amsterdam, where we are in the partnership with ABN AMRO to deliver one of the best offices in the world, where we use also a lot of wood, for example, to bring an excellent office for the employees of ABN AMRO. And I think that is the core business of our -- of that segment. We're also working on the AP, for example, in Schiphol Airport. This is also in line with the sustainability ambitions from Schiphol management. That are the kind of projects we want to be involved where we can really add our knowledge and experience. So we're looking for projects that are like that also for the future, but we are very selective. We are very selective. So if we don't see that or we don't have that, we will not tender. But the fact is that this segment is still a bit difficult. This office segment is a bit coming back but still difficult in the Netherlands, still hesitance from parties to jump into these bigger projects. So we are very selective. But based on the -- what people see, what we are doing in these projects I just mentioned, there is an attractive pipeline coming up. There are not many but we don't need many in that segment. We just won a few of these very attractive projects. On top of that, maybe good to mention that we also went through the portfolio of our field management or facility management in the Netherlands, and we cut back there many, many projects and maintenance contracts. So that's also part of this improvement of the results of that segment.

Got it. And then with regards to H2 cash flow and investments in the land bank, should I assume that the acquisition of the [indiscernible] terrain in Amsterdam is a cash out in H2? Or will that close in 2026 because it is quite a material one.

Yes. So Martijn, that's indeed spot on. It's already acquired, signed in July. So it's part of our cash outflow in the second half of this year.

Okay. Clear. And then a technical question related to my discontent about the reclassifications. How much sales and EBITDA was transferred to the Ireland unit, just to get a good grip on the underlying performance? -- roughly speaking.

Maybe, Martijn, in the slide deck on the last page, you also find a pro forma setup of the U.K. division, how it was in 2024 in the new setup. So that provides some more insight.

Yes, but that is already on a year-over-year improvement. So you restated 2024, but doesn't really tell me. I don't have the slide in front of me but doesn't really tell me what...

I don't think that we are talking about material figures.

Okay. So the performance has not been tainted or changed much by the reclassification.

Absolutely not.

Okay. And then just normally, Tijs does this but now I'm going to do it. Just to ask for some change in the reporting. Could you please go back to normal reporting for Q1 and Q3? The qualitative update is helpful but definitely not as helpful as what you had previously. That was a question/statement request.

Clear. And as you can imagine, I'm not going to give any promises there. But of course, we listen always very carefully to you guys.

Thank you. Yes, we have no further questions in the queue.

Sorry, operator. Okay. Then this concludes -- this concludes the call. I think for now, everybody, thanks for calling in. Sorry for the delay, as mentioned, and I hope to see you and hear from you soon. Thank you.

Thank you for joining today's call. Ladies and gentlemen, you may now disconnect.