Kyndryl Holdings, Inc. (KD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Terrific. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Tien-Tsin Huang. I cover the payments and IT services sector at JPMorgan, and we're here for the Kyndryl section of the day. We're going to do a fireside chat. I'll have questions that I've gathered from investors. We'll take questions from the portal and, of course, from the audience as well. Really, really happy to have Martin Schroeter, CEO, Chairman of Kyndryl; and David Wyshner, CFO, here with me. So we'll run through this and, of course, take your questions. So get them ready. Thank you both for being here.

Thank you. Thanks. Nice to be here. Thank you for the opportunity, Tien-Tsin.

Of course. I know we've shared the stage a bunch of different times, but I don't think I've ever had to ask you this question before. I'll ask it here. Kyndryl, what does Kyndryl mean?

What does Kyndryl mean? Boy, okay. So when you launch a brand, right, you got to really figure out what you want the brand to mean, what is the purpose of the corporation, et cetera, et cetera. And so this turns out is probably more art than science. So we built the name Kyndryl really from 2 ideas. One, from the word kindred or kinship, meaning together with partners, with customers, we can through relationships really build something of significance. And through the word tendril of new growth. We've always said -- I've always said since I joined that this business at the time, NewCo when I came back, now Kyndryl, was always going to be about growth. So we took the idea of kindred and the idea of tendril to put together. We came up with Kyndryl. And then obviously, in order to own a trademark globally, sometimes you have to monkey around with the spelling so we can own it. So that's how we got to Kyndryl. Think about it as very much a partnership-based, people-based business, focusing on growth in our space.

Good. I like it. So I know that part is the art part, like you mentioned. But let's go back to you deciding to come and join as CEO of Kyndryl. Obviously, you know the business. What attracted you to it?

I was happily retired. All the kids were back from their apartments. Nobody wanted to work in an apartment, turns out, during COVID. Look, I was thinking about what to do. And I guess I'd start with one of the things I always loved about working at IBM was that IBM is a really important company to how the world works. And so the nature of the work is important to me. And when I -- now Kyndryl, but NewCo, I knew was going to be a really important company to how the world works. We run the infrastructure that makes the banking systems work, makes the telecom systems work, makes the supply chains run. So the nature of the work is one that is really appealing to me. And secondly, it's about the people. Obviously, I didn't know the 90,000, but I knew quite a bit of -- I know quite a few of them. And I also had an opportunity to build my own team and to help build my own board. So the nature of the work really important, and Kyndryl occupies a really important place in how the world works. The people with whom I get to work are really important. And then third, in a spin -- now I had not done a spin before. But a lot of people I know have, and I've gotten a lot of advice. The third thing that's really appealing about Kyndryl is the freedom of action we have, freedom of action to build a strategy, to choose a direction, to craft a business model, to craft a culture that we want to build. So from a career perspective, when you get work that really matters with people you really like and have freedom of action to really create something, it's pretty much -- it's a home run in my mind. So I was delighted and excited to be a part of that.

Obviously, a lot of reasons to say that sounds compelling. So very important, right, to shape the right culture. You have -- you can shape that. What are you trying to build? And how is it going to be different than IBM, Martin?

Yes. That's a really good question. And we spend a lot of time on culture. When they make the movie about the success of Kyndryl someday, that movie is going to be about the transformation of the culture. Yes, it will talk about the investments we've made. And yes, it'll talk about how we've returned the business to growth. But at the heart of what this business is all about is building a services culture, right? So this business was a services business stuck inside a product culture, and product cultures have a different cadence, a different operating model, a different business management system than what a services business has. So what we have an opportunity to do, and more importantly, what there is a ton of energy to do inside the firm, 90,000 people really want to build a services culture that is restless, that is not trying to protect a past, but rather trying to endlessly reinvent the future for customers and build what's coming next. So a very restless culture, a culture that's empathetic, that really listens to customers. As an integrator of other technologies, now that we're out of that narrow ecosystem of IBM, what's interesting to our teams is that we can now show up and actually listen and be part of where they want to go to our customers, and quite frankly, to one another as well. And then, obviously, we have an opportunity here to build a culture in a services construct that can be truly devoted to our customers and their outcomes. Services business models are easier to align with customer outcomes than a product model might be. So we're building a culture that really suits us being the leading services infrastructure provider in the world around being restless and empathetic and devoted. And now with our freedom of action and being much more able to focus, we also can build an operating model without all the complexities that we had before. We can build an operating model that's much, much flatter, that's much, much faster, not just in terms of we can run faster, but think of, we can really cultivate simplicity everywhere, which we couldn't do before, and one that's much more focused on delivering great customer outcomes. So as I said, when they make the movie about Kyndryl, maybe I'll get Brad Pitt to play me. We'll see. His people don't know about it yet, so don't mention it to him. When they make the movie, it's going to be about a cultural transformation, and it's really going to be about building a services culture that resonates with clients and resonates with our partners.

No, I'm glad you say that. Following the services sector, and I know you and I have talked about this, right, getting the culture right is so important, getting the teams because it's a people-based business. And so getting that culture right is critical, which is why I wanted to ask. So thank you for that. So one more question on IBM, if you don't mind. Just -- I still get this question quite a bit. So just refresh us on the commercial agreement you have between IBM and also their equity ownership.

Sure. So there are -- in a sort of a big-picture way, there are 3 elements to our relationship with IBM. One, probably the smallest piece is the transition service agreements that exist -- always exists inside a spin. So we're using their systems to run our financials, procurement, I mean, all that stuff. And we had 2 years from the date of the spin. So we have just under 18 months left. And in 2 years, we'll be off those systems. So that's a part of it. The second part is the equity relationship. They retained 19.9%. Last night, they released a filing that they've transferred that to a bank. So I believe that -- that's welcomed by us. It begins the process now where they can unwind that stake, which, again, welcome to us. It gets rid of the overhang, which we hear in a lot of investor meetings. Hopefully, they do it well. We'll see, but they've at least started that process. They have said they would get rid of their stake. They would reduce it to 0 by the end of the first year. So they've got, again, just under 6 months left. And then the most -- the biggest part of the relationship is the commercial relationship that they've created between IBM and between Kyndryl. Now this is their making, right? They created the commercial relationship. They determined the parameters. We are essentially their largest customer. And we're buying -- obviously, we're paying for the software licenses we're using on kind of a fixed fee basis for now. That contract runs 4 years, where we have prices that they've set for us to buy mainframes and storage and power boxes and everything else in maintenance. So there is a whole bunch of consumption that happens on our side. It's nearly $5 billion in the first year, and we'll see what happens to it over time. And then there are a series of resell agreements that are in place, where we're reselling, for instance, IBM Cloud, we're reselling some of their security services. So the commercial relationship as their largest customer, again, terms set by them, represents both our purchase as well as some resell. But it's -- look, it's a big relationship. It's to put in context the size of that, we are -- within our cost base, we're about half labor, half nonlabor, and they're about half of the nonlabor component. So that's 25% of our cost base.

And as you mentioned earlier, Martin, the commercial relationship that we have with IBM doesn't limit our strategic or operational flexibility. We really have full flexibility to work with other technology providers as well. And over the last 6 months, as an independent company, we've been able to enter into a number of alliances with major technology partners that wouldn't have been possible when we were a subsidiary of IBM and that I think are going to be really valuable to us going forward.

Let's keep to the story. So let's dig in on that. You talked about, if I wrote this down correctly, right, you're -- the separation doubles your TAM to $510 billion. David, you mentioned some of the alliances being a big part of that. I know you've been working very hard, right, to go after that and pursue that and position Kyndryl to get there. Tell us more, right? How much of that is really serviceable today?

Yes. So when we were part of kind of the narrow IBM ecosystem, we would have said that the market we served was $240 billion, $250 billion. Now by signing -- as David said, we took very fast advantage of our freedom of action. We signed a deal with Microsoft a week after we spun out; Google a month after that; AWS a couple of months after that; and others, Lenovo, Dell, VMware, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So we've been very quick to create those partnerships, and those partnerships are built really around 3 things. They're built around a co-investment by the partner and us around our skills to get our teams credentialed and skilled in those technologies. They're built around kind of a joint go-to-market, and they're built around co-innovation. And so that process is now moving at scale. We have now what we basically started at a standing start before we were spun out already. But we had -- across the 90,000, we had maybe 2,000, maybe fewer than that, public cloud certifications within Kyndryl. Now we're north of 18,000 already. So we're building that credentialing very quickly. We need that scale, obviously, because we're big. And that's the sort of the starting point of us being able to access that double market opportunity. So when we created our business, we created practices, 6 practices. And we spend a lot of time with our customers, and the practices really represent the intersection of 2 things: where our customers are growing, so where they're investing; and where they give us brand permission to operate. So for us, in our practices around cloud, around data and AI, around security, around network and edge, these are all new opportunities for us that we need to now, with the help of our partners, create the credentialing, create the skills and start to move into those TAMs. So it's not immediately available. It's there. It's not immediately available until we build skill. But we see us already, for instance, in the first year, signing at least $1 billion of new business -- incremental new business just across our hyperscale -- cloud hyperscale partners. So this will take some time. But again, we've got all the pieces sort of in motion for us to access that market opportunity. And as David indicated, it starts with the freedom of action we now have that we didn't have before.

And to be clear, right, 18,000 credentialed staff, that's an asset. I mean...

Huge asset. Yes. In a market, by the way, that can't get enough of this talent, right? So everyone's trying to create this talent or trying to find this talent, and we're doing it -- a mix of bringing, obviously, some people on from the outside, but we're creating a lot of it ourselves.

Right. So I think one of the As, as we sort of just talked about alliances, so the advanced delivery part, let's touch upon that. We've had a lot of your peers, other IT services firms here, right, fighting automation, attrition, upscaling, training, you name it, right? There's a lot going on, on the labor side. So your confidence in balancing all of this, I think you guys targeted, what, $600 million in savings across all of these initiatives. Walk us through how to get there?

Sure. So advanced automation can deliver, for us, can deliver that. Let me talk a little bit -- let me step back and talk a little bit about -- we did talk about alliances. For those who aren't familiar, we sort of set out the 3 big elements of our turnaround in 3 As: alliances, as Tien-Tsin said; advanced automation; and then account focus. We'll come back to account focus, I'm sure. In advanced automation, what we've described is an ability for us to deploy tools. We started in a few dozen accounts. We've now expanded that to hundreds. As we deploy those tools, the people, maybe there are 100 people working on an account, we can improve the operational risk position of our customers, and at the same time, instead of using 100 people, we can use 90, right? That -- the 10 people we free up, these are people who are trusted by our customers, right? They know them, they see them in their premises. So we can take those 10 -- with the co-investment of our partners, we can put them into -- get them Azure-trained, get them VMware-trained, get them a different set of skills and then put them right back into the customer on new revenue opportunities. Now at the same time, sometimes, as we build the demand pipeline for those new opportunities, we can also use them to go backfill skills where we don't have what they currently have or we need them. So while there is inflation in wages, we -- obviously, we have to be competitive in pay. We actually find that the -- while the wage inflation is, it's real, right, but at the same time, the money we save from not having to recruit, the money we save from not having a drop in productivity to bring new people on, to get them used to the account, and quite frankly, the benefit of having the trusted people in those customers allows us to expand our wallet share with that customer. So while it sounds like a more difficult sort of bank shot, it's actually simpler. The wiring diagram has a slightly more complexity to it because you don't set up a hiring machine and bring people on. And -- but you do -- internally, from a wiring diagram, it's got a slight more complexity to it, but it's actually lower risk and easier for us to execute because, again, the thing we get to -- the thing we maintain is the trust of our customers and the people they trust to do the work for them. So advanced automation, I think, over time, will prove to be both margin-enhancing as we reduce our labor need and we'll get people redeployed and also revenue-enhancing as we put them into the places our customers are going, whether it be Azure, VMware, et cetera. So anything you would add to that, David?

Just we look at this as being potentially a $600 million a year opportunity for us over the medium term. So it has the potential to be really impactful. And I think one of the things that caught people's attention in a really positive way was that in the first quarter, in the March quarter, we freed up about 900 people on the accounts where we're deploying these tools. And that translates into about $46 million of annualized savings. And we laid out a plan as of next March to be at $200 million of annualized savings. And starting this fiscal year with $46 million of that already done gives us a real head start and also indicates how powerful this initiative can be.

Yes. No, no doubt. Look, retraining, reskilling, I mean you can do it at scale. That's an asset also, right, to do it as a competitive advantage. And I don't want to take for granted, right. Treating the clients well, giving them the right people and not having a lot of turnover, that should pay back.

Oh, absolutely.

This is a win-win-win because, as Martin said, it improves the quality of service that we provide. It creates opportunities for our people to take on additional skills and additional responsibilities, and it's helpful to our economics. So it really works for us.

Yes. I mean I'll -- just to bolster your point, Tien-Tsin, on the importance of the people. I spend a lot of time with our customers, right? I probably talked to 300 or 400 last year. We're on track to do more than that this year. The 3 questions they all went through after IBM announced the spin as I came back, question number one was IBM didn't release much financial information. Tell me how you're -- what does investment-grade really look like, et cetera. So there was a lot of focus on the capitalization in the business. Will you have the balance sheet to support us, to support me as your customer? We got them through that. As you know, it took IBM until late summer to release the balance sheet, but they were fine. The second question after the financial stability of the firm turned to, "Martin, I know I tell you I trust you, but what I really mean is trust Kyndryl, which what I really mean is I trust the 200 people who run my account. Those are the people I trust. I want to know that I'm going to have those 200 people. And when we assured them that they would, then the concern around the financial stability and the concern around who is going to be doing the work turned all into now let's talk about the future. "Tell me, Martin, how you're going to use your freedom of action. Tell me you're going to work with the partners who are important to me. Tell me you're going to create something with Microsoft. Tell me you're going to create something with Google, Azure and others so that I can start to think about how your deep, deep knowledge in my systems can help me on my journey, whereas in the past, you just couldn't because you didn't have the skills." So the people sit -- we are a delivery organization at heart and the people who do that delivery sit at the center of our customers' minds in terms of why they trust us.

Well said. Well said. So what we had to talk about the account stuff because I know, David, we talked about this before. When the earnings call come out, I thought that was the most interesting disclosure. I, being an analyst, of course, looking at some of the numbers. And I guess I'll read it and you guys can elaborate on it, right? What? 40% of your revenue is with focus accounts with 0% gross margin. While the blueprint accounts, right, which would be the remaining 60%, running at 20% gross margin. So lots of opportunity to...

High 20s.

High 20s. Sorry. My fault. Well, correct me on -- thank you for correcting me. But either way, a lot of opportunity, right, to get those focus accounts back into the blueprint world. How does that happen?

So yes, look, this is -- I think this was probably the one element that our investor base has really focused in on. Because going into -- before you pull it apart, one might conclude that it's $18 billion, $18.5 billion of revenue at -- if you round up 1% -- it's a bad space, right? It's not an investable space. And what we tried to show is that, no, no, no, that -- let us pull it apart for you so you can see that the space is investable. You can earn -- you can create value for a customer and earn reasonable profits if you do it well. So we wanted to prove that we could do it well, which we do in those blueprint accounts. And then the focus accounts, they exist for an entirely different reason. They exist because they were part of a relationship that IBM had that was focused on a much bigger thing, right? And IBM has many, many ways to extract its economics in these relationships. And so this was essentially what -- we were left with essentially translated to cost recovery, right? 0 GP means cost recovery. And so the point of breaking it out this way is that we have a great business. We can keep getting better, and the things we're working on will even be accretive to those blueprint accounts, but it's a great space with a great part of our business. And we're really going to focus on these accounts where we're at 0 GP. And we've said over the medium term, as we focus on those, we'll generate an incremental $800 million or so of profit. Now the focus on those, how does it happen, which was sort of the heart of the question is, look, every contract ultimately expires or it comes to an end. We can renegotiate. But we also have an opportunity to go in well before that renegotiation and sit down with customers and talk about, "Hey, we don't have a relationship with Microsoft, as an example. You use Azure. What work do we want to put in, we can help you with. What's next in your thoughts on your journey and how can we build some higher-margin content into this?" We can also talk to them about, "Look, when we pull the elements of this contract apart, this is really -- it's not creating any value for us. You may be better off either pulling it back inside or negotiating directly with that vendor so we can pull some content out." So there's an opportunity to either grow. There's an opportunity to shrink some of these. And of course, at the end of a contract term, we have an ability to renegotiate. And most customers, they do understand this phenomenon. Most customers don't want to wait until the very end and then realize, holy cow, my prices are going up, right? So we have a real opportunity here to intervene. If we just look at the contract runoff, this would take us years and years and years. But as we said, we think we can get it done a bit faster than that by focusing on higher-margin business on working with the suppliers to optimize that cost base or renegotiating in some cases. And customers, not universally but nearly universally, have been very receptive. It just -- it does take time. So in the first 3 months, as an example of the calendar year, we got $25 million done that will show up now in our P&L. By -- for this full fiscal year, which just started April 1, we said you'll see $100 million in that, and we'll exit the year and head into next year at a run rate of $200 million. So it will build over time, but it is a very big focus for us to improve again the part of the portfolio, the relationships that aren't driving the economics. They are out there. They're in the market. They are available. We just have some work to do to get the rest of our business. I know David wants to...

Yes. I agree with all of that. And I think one more thing that caught people's attention when we provided the breakdown, particularly that our blueprint accounts are generating margins north of 20%, that means that for the $8 billion -- close to $8 billion of focus account revenue that's generating almost no margin. In order to generate $800 million of incremental profit there, we only have to move margins halfway from where the focus accounts margins are to where the blueprint account margins are. So we're giving ourselves a fair amount of room there. And what that means is we all have to make everything look just like blueprint. We just have to make significant progress in that direction.

Yes. Something we'll definitely be tracking and asking a lot of questions about as time passes. So let me -- under the 10-minute mark, so happy to take questions if there are any. We do have one, if you don't mind waiting for the mic. We'll take this. We get through to some of mine as well.

Could you just talk a little bit about either the cyclicality or the refresh cycle embedded in kind of the mainframe part of the business, kind of where you see that right now and then maybe how that evolves going forward?

Yes. For us, the mainframe cycle -- the product cycle itself doesn't drive a dramatic uptick or downtick in our -- we'll get -- it will get deployed into these environments over time, the mainframe. It's -- a lot of this has to do with customer migration path and customer timing events. So we will start to put the mainframe into those environments. But again, when you deliver it through a services contract, you don't see either a big tailwind or a big headwind. It does create capacity then for customers to grow, but that growth is more driven by their own macro phenomenon, whatever environment they're in. But in and of itself, a mainframe cycle doesn't drive a services business like ours one way or the other.

So I'll ask just the general cyclicality question, if you don't mind, then just beyond mainframe, how recession-ready is Kyndryl is a question I'm sure you're getting a lot of. Is there a way to frame -- I know you've seen a lot of different cycles in the past, both of you. So just getting a lot of questions on that. How well is Kyndryl positioned for it? And how much risk is there to alter maybe your margin or your free cash flow outlook to the extent that you're surprised?

Yes. Look, I -- touch wood. One thing about this business is that when we enter a year, we know about 85% of our revenue. So that's -- in some ways, that's good. And we know about 2/3 of the second year, we know about half of the third year from now. So in some ways, that's good because it provides some stability and some pretty good view of where you're going. On the notorious side, now we're -- everything we're signing now is going to show up in 2 years and 3 years, and that's why it takes us a while to kind of dig out of this and get back to revenue growth as we've shared with the investment community. So it's got a good stable part to it. And once you get back to growth, you can see that tail of growth last in a while. We're just not through that yet. From a -- look, we're not an impulse purchase. We're not a discretionary purchase. You need an infrastructure. And the kind of work we do, even if there were a downturn, I don't think there's going to be a recession in cyber security, right? I don't think there's going to be a recession, if you will, and the idea that resiliency now, how quickly you can come back up, is really important in any economic environment. I have not yet heard a ton of CIOs or other firms saying, because of our new view on the economy, we're going to change the cloud journey we're on or we're going to change the data journey we're on or we're going to change any other -- now there's also -- there's not a ton of new in-sourcing. There's not a lot of new outsourcing. The trends haven't changed. And we're very stable -- like I said, we're a very stable business, and we have good visibility. And so I -- we'll have to see how it plays out, but there's not a lot that happens in the macro environment that will drive the topline for us. Will a different macro environment get customers to rethink some of their architectural decisions? That could be -- that's a real opportunity for us. Will some of those create a more simple environment? Not likely. They're more likely to create a more complex environment, which is really good for us because managing across that complexity -- as we heard from Lori Beer this morning, right? She was on stage saying how difficult and how complex it is to manage a global bank. All of that represents great opportunity. So the nature of the work we do, hearts and -- you always need hearts and lungs. It will be stable. Now we'll see what the nature of the projects are. But again, the good thing for us is we no longer have to protect anything. We are integrators of everyone's technology. We're building skills to be in the ecosystem that matters. So for us, I think it represents a great opportunity for us to make sure we take all of our customers on this journey with us.

Good. Was there one final question? Yes?

You explained contracts running at 0. How do you explain that you have some contracts running at 0 gross margin and others at 20%? I mean it's a meaningful gap.

Yes. So think about -- well, one, the financials that we print this year, right, and for the full fiscal year are really representative of the deals that IBM signed in '18, '19 and '20 when -- it wasn't until at some point in '20 when IBM contemplated spinning the business. So the backlog that is coming through the financials today is representative of decisions that IBM made when they had a hardware business, software business, a whole bunch of other services and us all stuck inside an economic model. So they have relationships. They had a lot of opportunity to create relationships that just look different from what -- the way we focus on it. So the relationships, the one thing, the single-largest element in those 0 GP is -- it's not the only one, but it's really the amount of IBM content that sits within those relationships. And after '18 and after '19, all those deals were done. Then IBM created the commercial relationship we talked about before, and that commercial relationship now created what do we pay for software, what do we pay for hardware. So while there were these big relationships that have lots of different elements to them, and IBM had its platform in there in a cloud and probably had Red Hat and a bunch of other stuff, all of that got stripped away because that stayed with IBM. And the only thing left in the relationship is our services and the revenue from that now reflecting also our cost base with the commercials they've created. So not surprisingly, there are -- when you make decisions as a big entity, you optimize a big entity. And when you make decisions as now a separate entity with a different set of commercials, you just have a different view of what the economics and what drives value.

Good. Should we sneak one more in or -- let's do a quick one, if you don't mind. Yes, yes, yes.

What's the average contract length for those ones?

Contract length was the question.

The average -- I think we have, on average, 3.5 years left on that whole portfolio. But again, we think we can make progress. And we don't have to wait for all of them. The tail goes out 6 years but -- for the focus accounts. But in our business, again, what's in the financials today is what was really signed '18, '19, '20, a little bit of '21. What's in our P&L next year is going to be '19, '20, '21, a little bit of '22. So by the time we get to the third year, we'll have now tilted the -- what's coming out of the backlog to what we're currently working on and everything from here, which again is accretive to our blueprint accounts. And we'll start to have tilted that weight to be much, much less of what was signed kind of pre-spin and represents the old decision framework. So it just -- again, the notorious part of a backlog business is you got to live with it and work through it. But once you get through it, then it's got a lot of earning power. It's got a lot of growth embedded as long as we can keep growing and keep moving into this bigger market that we serve.

Let me ratify 2 more. I want to make sure we ask one balance sheet free cash question, if you don't mind. $5 billion in liquidity, maintain investment-grade, you've satisfied client questions around that. So thinking about ROI hurdles for deployment of that cash and investments, et cetera, what's the quick thinking on that?

Yes. Staying investment grade is really important to us. And this year, a fair amount of our free cash flow is going to go for transaction-related, separation-related costs that we still have, some systems migration work, a broad-based employee retention program that pays out in December this year and some rebranding costs. So that uses up most of our free cash flow in fiscal year 2023. Going forward, that gives us the opportunity to think about what makes the most sense for capital redeployment. We're absolutely going to be focused on reinvesting in the business, staying investment-grade and then seeing what other opportunities are out there, including our own stock.

Okay. Good. We're just under a minute left. We covered a lot of ground, I feel like -- I always Martin, I know you've been meeting with a lot of investors, and you've been on the road a little bit. And I always like this go-to question of what do you think is underappreciated about Kyndryl given a lot of the meetings you've had and as you've been thinking about the business from an external standpoint.

Well, there's certainly something underappreciated because we see a massive amount of value in this business. And I guess, the way I think about the potential here, and it goes back to the -- yes, we have focus accounts, which will go fixed, but we've got a $10 billion business of blueprint accounts that are creating very good profitability. And I think -- and that's part of why we shared this. The view of what a $10 billion blueprint business looks like and what it's worth is, I think, underappreciated, particularly if we now tackle these focus accounts. So $10 billion is going to go back to '16, '17 as we get back to growth, all of which can perform at that higher level. So pulling apart this business is really important. And the opportunity for us now to start in a space that creates value, and I think people assumed it didn't, but in a space that can create value, if you're good at it, which we are, and we're the biggest, I think that is a big part of what investors are trying to understand. And it is underappreciated because this is a business with a ton of potential as we fix the focus accounts, as we move into that ecosystem that we're moving into, very well-received by customers and doubles, as I said, our market, and as we really execute that using our own tools, our own automation and freeing up people. It's not a -- it's simplistic. It's not simple, but it's all executable. And we can show progress quarter after quarter, even though the big impact of the P&L is coming down the road when -- as we start to work our way through the older stuff.

Good. No, it's clear and it's all very thoughtful. So we'll be tracking it as we go. So thank you both for the time. Thank you for being with us.

Thanks, Tien-Tsin. Thank you.

Thank you.