LightPath Technologies, Inc. (LPTH) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Welcome, everyone, present physically and virtually via the webcast. Hopefully, I can be heard nice and clear and you can see my presentation. Excited to have everyone here. Second time we do an Investor Day, [Indiscernible] quite a bit for the first one. And as the company, our revenue and our backlog, and we'll talk about all of that today. So I'll be speaking as well as Al Miranda, our CFO. And we also have with us here Dr. Steve Mielke, our VP of Engineering; Israel Piergiovanni, our VP of Manufacturing; and Natalie King, VP, Finance, which will take part in mostly the Q&A. For those that were here present physically, we did a facility to have lunch, and now we'll go ahead with this and have Q&A at the end of the presentation. Okay. I think it's good. [Indiscernible] So I'm assuming they can see us all. So a bit of a history of LightPath and where we've come from. So LightPath has been around for a while. We're a 40-year-old company, maybe 41-year-old company. For many, many years, 35 out of the 40 really, we were an optical component company. I mean, to give a perspective to this, these tiny lenses that we see here on the left, were most of what LightPath did, and it's claimed the same for many, many years. Now the company really was a pioneer in the technology of molded optics and developed that and as we've seen here, developed even the technology to do that, including the machines and instrumentation needed. And the hope was, the plan was that this technology, these molded lenses will get adopted in very high volumes. And to put it into perspective, back in 2000 or so, the volume of molded lenses was miniscule compared to what we did today, and the price was much higher. And the plan of the company was the expectation that adoption in volume will drive significant revenue. What was missing in that part was that also drives the cost down and the price down. And so lenses maybe 25 years ago were selling for $100 per lens, now sell for single digit dollars. And so the strategy behind that wasn't working out well. Company started pivoting towards infrared optics a bit in 2016, 2017 through the acquisition of ISP Optics, a company that produces individual lenses by grind and polish, pretty conventional technologies. And the thought there was that we could adopt the same molding technology used to make lenses in high volume into infrared optics chalcogenide glass back then was very, very new and people are only starting to adopt it. The company back then had 2 types of BlackDiamond glass, BD6 and BD2, which are really generic forms of a glass made by other companies like SCHOTT that calls it IRG26 or Vitron that calls it IG6, pretty generic. Fast forward to the year 2020, except for COVID, which was a big event there, there was also a change in management here. And we firstly started changing direction of the company. Strategically, we understood that we cannot live in the component area. We want to do far more than that. That's not new. So many, many companies that go through that and many companies try to do that, but we had some 2 other things that were playing in our favor. One was the market, the adoption of optics or photonics in the wider market that was going on over the last 10 years or so changed the dynamics of the supply chain or started to change the dynamics of the supply chain. And so while we were making components sort of a vertical supply chain where we would sell the components, someone that would build the system and so on, now our customers are changing, and we started seeing customers that are less experts in optics and more solution integrators altogether. And so they wanted a complete solution and that created an opportunity for us to move away from the pure components into more a solutions company. We were able to do that not only because the opportunity existed, but because of capabilities we had already in [Indiscernible]. So to begin with, we are an optics company, but we had a lot of internal discipline of engineering related to building our own instrumentation and technology that was needed. So we have here or have here already electronic engineering, mechanical engineering, things you typically don't find in a company like that. We also had some unique technologies that we understood could be real differentiators when going upstream into subassembly, subsystems and so on. Primarily a chief among them was the BlackDiamond technology. There were a handful of companies that were making glass of that type, but they were all sort of making the same generic glasses and the adoption of them was very, very limited. We came across a portfolio of materials that Naval Research Laboratory developed under the mandate to develop new technologies for the Navy, and we're looking to license it. We were lucky to be able to secure an exclusive license for those and understanding that those technologies, those materials could drastically change the landscape of infrared imaging. And so with that, we decided to leverage that to no longer just be a supplier of components and parts but actually go upstream. And so 2 things in our favor. One, the market wanted it. They wanted more companies making complete subsystems and so on. And secondly, we could offer subsystems that were better than others out there because of these unique materials that we licensed because we were leveraging our molding technology to reduce the cost of making [Indiscernible]. Then they move to geopolitics, which in the past used to have hurt us every time, the U.S. and China will go into a war. And it used to hurt LightPath badly because LightPath was very, very dependent on China. When 5 years ago, 6 years ago, when I joined the company, 55% of our business was in China, manufacturing and sales. Now it's nothing more, less than 5%. But back then, every time tariffs or anything like that would happen, it would have a very negative impact to the company. This time, because of the way we were positioned, all the geopolitics actually plays in our favor. And obviously, everyone is very, very familiar now with the story around Germanium and Germanium alternatives and our BlackDiamond being the Germanium alternative. I would love to say that I saw that coming exactly the way it is. There's some element of luck here as well. Sometimes we get lucky. Okay. Are we still going, so we decided to go on that path. We started, it's easier said than done sometimes. We had to take baby steps. And so we started from just doing assembly. So going from the individual lenses into assemblies, selling them pretty much the same customer base, sometimes a bit more, but saying to a customer instead of buying lenses and designing an assembly, let us design the assembly. Assembly can be something really simple like 2 lenses in a valve like this or a complex 8 lens telescope or a much larger one. But it's got our feet wet, it got people used to it. And so down the road, this was for a couple of years, we were doing just that. People were starting to get used to the idea of LightPath doing more than that, started to get used to the idea of the BlackDiamond materials and we're seeing we can actually make assemblies for them that are very cost effective, very high volume and so on. And then we started dabbling into the more higher value added, which is where we were targeting all along really, and that is the cameras. Before any acquisitions, we started already with our own first camera, the Mantis, which was a Broadband or Dual-Band someone wants to call it a Multispectral many terms to it, one camera that can see sort of in more than one spectral band, didn't really exist before that. It's still making its way into being adopted and so on, but it was more of a statement than it was a massive, best sell was more of a statement of like, 'hey, we're now making cameras also.' And these cameras can be way better than anything else there or very different than anything else there because with our unique BlackDiamond materials, you could make this camera multispectral. Without BlackDiamond, it would be you'd have to sacrifice quite a bit of specifications or performance and would not be able to do it. That was our first statement of, 'hey, this is what BlackDiamond can do.' And if you pay close attention, we are planning to leverage that to go way up and become a system company. From there, we started supplementing with acquisitions, Visimid being the first one. Okay, forgot this timeline, but that's fine. Visimid being first one and that added capabilities in making those cameras.  In fact, that first camera, the Mantis was developed together with Visimid before we acquired it and the reason for that is actually besides the fact that we wanted to develop a camera, we also wanted to work with Visimid. Acquisitions are an important tool for us. We said that before. We talked about it some more.  We strongly believe that we're able to identify, attract and integrate acquisitions in a very suitable way to our new business model, our new direction. But integration of an acquisition sometimes [indiscernible] everything. It can kill the best plans ever if culture doesn't work, if the integration doesn't work, if the teams don't work. And so any company we acquired and plan to acquire, we do some work to get to know each other.  And these deals we walked away from because the culture it just clearly wasn't there. And so Visimid was really Mantis was really a first attempt to go into cameras but also get to know the Visimid team. We got along so well halfway through the development, it just became natural of like, okay, let's just merge the 2 companies.  And that was the first acquisition. Down the road from there, the G5 and most recently, Amorphous Materials. And I'll just go in a different order but going into the acquisitions and talking about them, very important to us, very important for them to be highly accretive. So, we sort of started talking about the story, how we went from components and to end up in subsystems. We haven't finished that journey yet, by the way. We're quite along there but haven't finished it yet.  But there are some technologies we could develop in-house. There were some we really needed to bring in. We needed to bring in because sometimes it's just cheaper to acquire in a portfolio of products, a group of engineers and to develop it from scratch. It's also obviously a different transaction, balance sheet versus income statement and such.  But sometimes it's a matter of time also. We realized that we have a very unique rhythm of opportunity because of the geopolitics and situation with Germanium, a time frame in which we can really shine, and we can grab significant market share of that system subsystem level. And so sometimes you need to use acquisitions to do that. And so, what we're seeing here is really all of those acquisitions have brought us some specific technologies, which is most of the time, the first thing we aim at. We are a technology company after all.  But every one of them for them to be accretive have also brought with it an existing backlog or programs that we were about to get to be won or be awarded. Sometimes, like in the case of G5, we knew most of those programs are coming. We knew we're able to come in at the right time at the right place there.  But we also knew that we are really needed in order to deliver on those programs. So G5, we knew it's going to struggle with the situation with Germanium just like everything else struggles. And we can come in and we can really enable G5 to deliver on these big programs, some of them much bigger than what we even thought of, but definitely something we can enable them to deliver. We have real synergies there.  Sometimes like with Visimid, the NGSRI program, our probably flagship program in heat-seeking missiles or in that platform or that range was really in part awarded because of the acquisition. Visimid was a small engineering team that was developing the technology, but it's always the technology that was developing was mostly handed over to the customer or sold as a customer for production.  Lucky was betting on Visamid for the NGSRI program, but Visamid was not in a place to really be able to take that into the next level. And so, the acquisition came at the right time at the right place, even though, again, we didn't plan on it because of NGSRI, but sometimes we get really lucky. And this one happened to be that halfway through the acquisition, the NGSRI program popped up and it was, it made sense all about it.  And then, of course, the markets, right? Everything we do is almost everything, probably others and heat-seeking missiles, but almost everything else is dual use. And so, approaching other markets, security markets, industrial imaging and so on is also important for us and something that we'll continue to do and sometimes expand through acquisitions.  Going back to the order of slides we had, we talked through this, some major events just during this time. I'm not going to talk too much about the first few years. It was ugly. There was a lot of cleanup was a lot going on. There was theft in China. There was an operation that was really extremely inefficient and not set up the right way. There were too many buildings, there were too many companies, there were too much of a lot of things.  Anyway, once 2024 came about or 2023, the Mantis cameras, the Visimid acquisition, that was really starting to be the turning point. G5 acquisition pretty much a year ago from today happens to be, a major one, but really what is really coming now is the number of large programs and orders that we are winning and getting into because over those 4 years, we set up the foundation for all of that.  So whether it's G5 winning more business because they can supply cameras when other people cannot supply cameras or whether it's G5 winning business because they're part of a larger company, and so some people feel more comfortable buying from them and small or it's because of technologies that we put together. Visimid's uncooled cameras turned into heat-seekers, BlackDiamond can actually make something really, really unique there.  And Amorphous Materials, the company has been around forever, probably as old as I am, to be honest. That has been sort of captivated and doing one specific thing and doing only that, we're able to take them, combine them with our BlackDiamond technology and achieve something much bigger, so to speak, I mean, physically bigger in terms of optics and lenses.  And so that's the strategy behind us. Now as we went along, we started talking about pillars of growth. It's a concept that introduced sort of maybe 3 years ago, we started talking about it. It's not really a formal concept in business school or anything like that, but it's something that stuck and we found it useful to frame things. Very useful to frame things externally, but also internally for the team. We're going through a transition.  One day, we're making components, we're saying, hey, guys, in 3 years' time, we're going to be a completely different company. You need to explain to people what that's going to be. To us, we chose to say, okay, everything we're doing falls under those three pillars, sort of independent activities that have independent opportunities underneath them. So, we're very diversified. We're not betting on one thing alone because sometimes things fall through, not because of you. For example here, of those three pillars of growth, two of them were highly successful and really got us to where we are, and the third one didn't. And that's okay. That's the whole idea of diversification, and that's why we have multiple different things we're doing. In our example, we said three years ago or so, we want to go into more assemblies and cameras. Well, we took that from 2020, when assemblies were maybe $0.5 million a quarter, to now more than $7 million, actually, that's just a bit outdated; it's probably much more like $10 million. So, we said we wanted to go into government and defense. We identified that because of BlackDiamond, because of the alternatives to Germanium, because we realized that's a big market, infrared optics. And you can't be an infrared company if you are doing only 8% of your revenue is in defense. So, we changed that. And that's part of our move away from China back to the U.S. and Europe and the direction we're going. So now government and defense are more than 70% of our revenue. The third pillar that we identified was new applications. At first, we thought it would be automotive. It was clear very quickly that that wasn't going to happen. We pivoted a bit to oil and gas and utilities, areas where we thought we could really have an impact in terms of growth of thermal imaging. Some successes there, mainly in the furnace camera part, some less. But again, that is fine. All of those, when we introduced all of those three years ago, we were at about $30 million in revenue, we talked about, in three to five years, we want to get to $100 million to $150 million revenue. Well, that's happening. We are well on track to achieve that soon. So that is a bit of old news, and we need a new goal and we need a new direction on that. Not a completely new direction, we're still going upstream, systems and cameras, but to frame where the growth will come from, we're looking the same way as three pillars, we are taking something a bit different now. We're saying, okay, for the next few years, if we are to again lock or separate the business into three blocks and say, they are based on the same prevailing technologies, BlackDiamond, imaging, assemblies, optics that we make, fabrication, coating, and so on. All of our technologies serve all three of those, but those three are somewhat independent of each other and can have underneath them independent large opportunities that could be significant to us. Significant used to be, we used to say a significant opportunity would be in the millions, now that's in the noise a bit. Currently, we say a big opportunity, we call something that could be $10 million or more a year. We have probably eight to ten of those right now. But we have changed the direction, we're going, that threshold will grow even higher. So, let's talk a bit about what those are, those three pillars of growth. The first one on the left is the assembly's business. We've tapped into that a little bit through fixed-focus assemblies, what we see here on the screen, and a few barrels. That's a very nice market. We're taking a very good portion of that market already because we can do those with BlackDiamond, and they perform great. We can deliver them; they're made here in the U.S. We can also now produce them now also in Latvia, so we serve them in the European market and Ukraine. We might even be selling even more assemblies right now in Europe than we are here in the short term. But there's much more than that. There are much more complex assemblies where someone would come and say, I don't want to buy a complete camera system from you. I want to build my own camera for whatever reason, and I want to buy just an optical assembly. That business of just optical assemblies that has already players in it, like MKS Ophir in Israel and such, that's a business that we estimated, both top-down and bottom-up analysis, and we got independent market research done. Yes, Al agreed to spend money on the market research. The addressable market for us is between $500 million to $1 billion at that level. Optics as a whole, or infrared imaging as a whole, to remind you, is currently, according to independent market research, at $10 billion to $11 billion a year. So, it's a portion of that. Where do those go to? They can go to someone who wants to build their own gimbal let's say, that goes into an aircraft and that someone buys a sensor from someone else. We use certain sensors from certain companies because we chose to use their detectors, but there are others and different preferences or different uses. This could be a camera that's used in space. We don't know how to build space cameras right now, that's not something we could do as an entire payload, but we have built a telescope optical assembly. This could also go to some of our direct competitors, so companies that make their own detector and want to sell a complete camera, like we are talking about we are selling complete camera, but they want to buy the assembly from us. That's fine. I would talk to anyone where they can make money. So that's the first pillar, an opportunity of $500 million to $1 billion, studied in different ways. The second pillar is infrared camera systems. To put it simply, think about FLIR, they are now part of Teledyne. The numbers were public up until a few years ago before they got acquired; you can even look them up. But again, market research supports this. This is taking G5 and building on that, taking Visimid and building on that. So, standard cameras that can go into pods [Indiscernible], into gimbals, like the camera we see here from G5, that can be on a border tower, on a truck, in a stadium, or for counter-UAS. G5 already has a really good standing in the market on those large fixed ones. But there's a whole market of smaller compact ones or other wavelengths. G5 does only one wavelength, but there are other wavelengths to do, some multispectral cameras that we're starting to develop, and so on. So, cameras as standard products, then cameras as complete cameras, have an addressable market between $1 billion to $1.5 billion. The third one is a bit harder to explain but easier to demonstrate, large defense programs. Think about programs we have today that are $10-plus million, NGSRI as an example, Navy SPIER is another one, and others we announced a year ago. These are programs where we do some development work paid for by the customer, some NRE to it, but the real money would be made in production. We're not an engineering company. We don't do all this for engineering revenue. That's nice but small. It's really for the production. These are opportunities like Apache, NGSRI, SPIER, where we build on existing technologies that we already have. We're not developing from scratch. We're not a research organization. We're not developing a completely new technology, but taking something and modifying it, which last year in the investor meeting, we talked about and now is public information because of the press release also out, is a program in which we took the high-end camera of G5, so 1,000-millimeter camera, upgraded it to some performance specifications that may be wanted in a nearly 2-year engineering project. And now it's going to get installed on every naval service vessel for counter-UAS and detecting low-flying cruise vessels, okay?  So, that's a program of record. It's a public program. You can go and see it. L3 talks about it. It is based on an existing technology. We didn't develop a camera from scratch. So, we believe we can do more of those. What is the TAM here? I can't even tell because the TAM is really more gated by how much can we take of those. So, we assume we did some internal study, and we said, okay, G5, we can do X programs like that before it becomes like really about us and distracts us from other work in that we can do that.  So, we believe this is large enough that it can be as big as those pillars in terms of revenue it would bring. And again, you can just look at what you know. We have NGSRI programs that we hope, and we're looking for Lockheed to win. If they do, it could be anywhere from $50 million to $100 million a year for one program. So, these are kind of what we're talking about in that pillar of growth.   Now talking a bit about what we have so far in product portfolio. How are we doing? Okay. So, what have we developed until now? No, I'm not talking about the optical components. I'm not talking about materials. I'm talking more about the subsystems and the base technologies that enable a lot of this.  So, our Mantis, we talked about that specific cameras for applications like Gas Imaging, like furnace inspection, of course, the range of G5 cooled long-range detection cameras, CST-Solo, a new camera we're coming out with, which is really a very compact, if you want, heat-seeker, but it could be a heat-seeking drone could use it or because that very past that some of the drones are going or for some industrial applications. And so sometimes we make some bets, we try.  And again, diversification is the key to everything. We have to have a few different things. We can't depend on one. And we try something like EdgeIR was actually attempted something to integrate AI into the camera, that was not that successful. And I bring it up even though I should be hiding things that aren't successful. But just mentality-wise, from a concept, diversification in everything we do is extremely important to it. It's something we drive through as a team. Never bet on one thing. Don't bet on one program, don't bet on one technology. Keep trying. Something will stick. And sometimes they don't stick.  Our BlackDiamond Glass, obviously, our pride and joy and a huge enabler to a lot of what we do. So, I mentioned there used to be 2 materials that were more generic. One of them we discontinued, one of them we still do quite a bit of BD6, but there's really a whole portfolio of materials. To put it into perspective, the next company after us, has probably 5 types of glass that they make. Between LightPath and the Amorphous Materials, we have now something that is close to 20. So, we are by far, the largest selection of infrared materials anywhere, period. And we're probably now by far the largest producer of infrared materials between Amorphous and LightPath.  And those of you that were here saw on the tour, we have some very grand plans of expansion because we have to actually have way more orders than we can make glass for right now. But what is unique about this glass? Well, first of all, geopolitically, it's an alternative to Germanium, right? It's not a one-to-one replacement to Germanium, nothing ever is. But in the world of optics, you can design your systems now without Germanium or without Gallium by using Chalcogenide.  Optics accounts for 25% of the Germanium the U.S. needs. It's a public market research actually done for the U.S. Congress some years ago and it's public information. 25% or so, however many tons the U.S. needs are for optics. We solve that problem for the optics part. We don't solve it for the other 75%. So germanium is very, very critical in solar cells, okay? If you don't have Germanium for solar cells for satellite, the size of the solar cells will be 3x bigger as much as they are today. So, it is much more important to direct the Germanium there where you don't have an alternative than to optics where we provide an alternative. And that has always been part of our picture of the government. That's something DLA Defense Logistics Agency understood very, very well and why they've been financing part of this and so on to free up Germanium to places where you don't have right now an alternative.  So, besides alternative to Germanium, it's made here in the U.S. Germanium, Gallium, those are crystals. They are grown by taking raw material and feeder and growing it to crystal and you're getting a pure metal out of it, which then you can do a little bit and turn it into optics. Ours is a glass. The glass is not grown as a crystal glass, it is melted. That means we can scale it much better in terms of production. You've seen here. That means we can also change the properties of it. And that's why we have maybe 20 types of [indiscernible] where Germanium we have just one.  Germanium properties are whatever Germanium is, you cannot change them. So, Germanium transmits mid-waves and long waves. It cannot transmit short-wave infrared. No matter what you'll do to it, it will not transmit. Silicon can transmit short wave and mid-wave, no matter what you're going to do, it's not going to transmit long wave. And so those materials that we used until now, in selenium, zinc sulfide, Germanium, silicon, all listed whatever properties they have, they're all crystalline materials.  Glass on the other hand, or synthetic glass, if you would, a chemistry. You can change it. I can add a little bit of that, a bit more selenium, a bit less gallium or whatever materials are in there. We actually don't use gallium. And I can get a different composition. I can fine-tune it. That is what Naval Research Laboratory did for years. But that's also the guys in Texas, Amorphous Materials also know how to do very, very well.  So, Amorphous other than Naval Research Laboratories, Amorphous Materials was probably the only group in the U.S. that can come up with new compositions of glass or has been coming up with new. The acquisition of Amorphous was also a bit defense that way. It's like, okay, we have an exclusive with [Indiscernible]; let's also get whoever else might be playing in this. And so lots of properties, lots of things we can play with. And so with them, we can get to some really unique advantages, which I'll explain in a second or give some demonstration.  But just to summarize those, we reduced supply chain risk. We have a lot of advantages on properties because they are chemistry and not crystal. They're manufactured in-house. You've seen them here. We acquired Amorphous Materials for a number of reasons. But one of the reasons we acquired Amorphous Materials was because we like to jokingly say, I joke about it, I'm not sure everyone else finds it funny. We were one chain away from losing capacity. I mean we're in Orlando. We make, everything we do in the company pretty much we do in more than one location, except glass.  Glass was done only here in Orlando. So it's actually, the company did have a time where it shut down because of the hurricane and the flooding and that impacted the glass manufacturing. We couldn't do that. So having another location now in Texas that makes glass, is a backup as well as many, many other things that [Technical Difficulty] acquisition.  Okay. And then other advantages that it has, glass can be molded. You can melt it and reshape it. Crystal cannot be. Crystal, once it's grown the way it is, the only way to make a lens for it is to remove material until you polish it into the shape you want. Glass can be molded. You've seen it here on the tool. Light is known for molding. We keep extending that technology more and more. For the very large cameras, it makes less of a difference there. But for the small ones, if you're talking about lens assemblies that go to the small ones, like we see here in the image.  All of those lenses in this picture are molded, which means we can make 4 million a year of them with the molding machines that we have. We needed to make 4 million Germanium lenses a year, we would need to have this entire building filled with diamond turning and polishing machines. So it's a scalable technology, and you can do that. And then the coatings we developed for it, a lot of qualification, we talked about that, and so on.  Advantages, since I'm a technologist or a failed engineer, as I say sometimes, I like to talk about the technology. What are the advantages of BlackDiamond? Replacing Germanium, everyone gets clear. There's much, much more to it than that. You look at the gimbal like you see here a payload, and you see multiple windows in different colors. Why?  Well, one of them is a laser, and that needs its own window. Okay. But all of the 3 large ones are the cameras. But why do you need multiple cameras? You need them because they're looking at a different wave. One is a visible camera, maybe a black and white, maybe a color camera.  Another one is probably a short-wave infrared camera because that can see through fog, through haze, sometimes through clouds very well. And the third one is a thermal camera because it can see at a very long distance, and probably a mid-wave camera. But what if you could combine them into one camera that does all 3? You would save tremendous space and weight, not to mention the cost, but also power consumption, right? All these drones that consume power, you want as much power for the motors as you can for distance and time upfront. And so different branches of the government with different data and so on, have been working at developing sensors that can image multiple wave bands at the same time.  So these are the programs you can go and you can find some public information about them, some are not public, but there's enough there that you can find it. What wasn't available was the material, the glass, as I mentioned earlier, Germanium transmits mid-wave, and it cannot transmit short wave. Silicon can transmit short wave and mid-wave, and cannot transmit visible nor long wave, or near infrared, which is what is called night vision.  These materials, because they're Chalcogenide, because they're not a crystal, and they're fine-tuned, that is why NRL developed 20 materials like that. Because they give you lots of different properties, let's say, carefully fine-tuned to be able to see what we are showing here on the left, one system that can actually image, maybe on wavelength, [Indiscernible]. And that's the Mantis. If you recall, we talked about the Mantis, the camera that does 2 wavelengths. That's why it's so important. That's why BlackDiamond can make it happen. You couldn't do that without those materials.  It also comes into play in reducing the overall size and weight of systems. In visible light applications like cameras that were used to like the big Sony SLR and so on, these big lenses and so there are 300-something types of glass that can be used to make those cameras. You can choose the most perfect glass for your application. In infrared, there were maybe 10 materials until recently. The Germanium, the silicon, zinc selenide, zinc sulfide, maybe 5 Chalcogenide glasses that were made by Schott, Vitron, and LightPath.  Now we're adding 20. So, we're adding much more variables for engineers to play with, and what do engineers like to do, they design stuff. And so when they design a Zoom lens like this is an example from a paper published with the Army, I believe, the Army Night vision Lab of a Zoom lens, and tends to make a zoom lens that would do both mid-wave and long wave simultaneously, okay, systems that already are starting to exist with existing materials would require 21 individual lens, okay?  Huge weight, cost and a lot of optical loss because every time the light goes in and out of the lens, you lose a bit of light, even though the coatings help. With our materials, because they add so many valuable capabilities, you can take this down to 12 elements. It's hidden down here, but it says 12 elements. You gain a significant weight advantage, you gain higher throughput of light, you gain a cheaper system, and the weight translates again to longer range for the drone. So, these are some of the examples.  People keep asking. Well, why do you need 20 materials? I mean, there isn't one enough to replace Germanium. This isn't about replacing Germanium only. Replacing Germanium as I would weigh in. That created the need for everyone to take a look at what's out there and what I can do. But once they look at it and see what it is, they realize, oh my God, I can do much more with these materials than I can do with Germanium.  Okay. One area I want to talk about specifically is the next frontier, so to speak, from Captain [indiscernible] words, large diameter optics, and specifically for space applications. We were making glass in a 5-inch diameter. We could slump it a process that would allow us to get sometimes to 7 inches in diameter. That was okay for like the camera we see here, what's called the midrange camera of G5, where the front lens is about 140 millimeters.  We could probably make this. We couldn't make it for the large cameras of G5, which is really where the big revenue is, and most of it. And we definitely couldn't do it for the space applications, which are a very fast-growing area. And so, in space to do multispectral imaging because materials like BlackDiamond did which did not exist before, you use mirrors. You use some very, very large mirrors to build the telescope that can image in both short wave and mid-wave, long wave, and visible. So, what you see here, this satellite, the reason they were the size of a bus is they had, like, think of a classic telescope with a Newtonian reflective telescope with massive mirrors on an axis and non-axles.  Think about, but James Web, what was it? It's a massive [indiscernible], just they have to unfold them, and there are so many of them. But with BlackDiamond, you can do it in a refractive way instead of reflective. The gig that means you pass the light through the lens instead of reflecting it in order to shape it. But you need a large diameter. These are the longer you are away from what you want to image, the larger the optic needs to be. For basic geometrical optics, you need to get to at least 10 inches in diameter, sometimes as much as 15 inches. We can do that with our technology.  Amorphous can be. And so, the acquisition of Amorphous materials enables us to make up to 17 inches in diameter, as a second manufacturing location adds to our technical capabilities big time, or more importantly, takes away from competitors' technical capabilities to develop others, and gives us another set of materials that they develop. So, this acquisition is significant in many ways.  I get asked what's the size of the market, what is it? So pretty easy way to calculate public information, SDA Space Development Agency last month, I think, 2 months ago, awarded 4 companies to build 72 missile tracking satellites. Infrared by far. There's no other way on that, $3.5 billion, $48 million per satellite. Rule of thumb is the entire optical payload with the sensor and with all of that is about 1/3 of the value. okay? And of that, there is a telescope, optical telescope. Again, we're not going to go and do 1/3 of the $48 million. We are not going to do $16 million per satellite. We're not there yet, maybe one time down to go. But we are going to do a very big chunk of that $16 million, which is the optical telescope that again is enabled by our materials.  So a pretty significant capability for us that I think will play very nicely. Okay. Counter-UAS, we talked a bit about it. I just have to keep emphasizing because it's like every major order we announced like the $9-something million only a week or 2 ago, $20 million before the thing. Most of them are heavy on the counter-UAS. It's a very, very fast-growing market for us. It's an incredible market and cameras from G5 fit perfectly in. Every one of those systems that you've seen a laser system here, a remote weapon system or just an interdiction system, all of them pretty much are using those same cameras, those same technology.  So that's very fast growing for us. G5 is best-in-class by far. I mean you can go and we have some information published. You can go and you can see the, what's called the DRI, the Detection and Recognition Identification ranges. We published them on our last week material. You can take a look at, for example, last week, FLIR announced a new 1,000-millimeter lens or 1,000-millimeter camera for similar applications. And you can see the DRI, what the Detection Recognition Identification ranges are compared to the G5. I'm not going to spell it out for you, but it's easy to find that the numbers are staggering how much better we are.  So to put it into perspective, for those of you that know the D.C. metro area, if we were to put our 1,000-millimeter camera on a pole in Washington, D.C., we would detect a tiny drone like this like the DJI flying over Silver Spring or Bethesda. That's the kind of range we are talking. Okay. A bit about commercial applications really quick. Not a huge part of our revenue now, but always is there because pretty much everything we do or those things we do are on mute. So cameras can be used for, same cameras that can be used for detecting a drone, can be used for detecting someone at seat, for example, or things like that. So some security applications and some pure industrial applications.  We talked about Gas Imaging up and down. In Europe, it's up. In the U.S., it's a bit down with the current administration. So I'm not sure about that one. But if we look at furnace cameras, something we've talked a bit about in the past, our Mantis camera offers the ability to image inside a furnace running at thousands of degrees, 2,000 degrees Celsius in this case. So, this is what a power plant furnace would look like and you have the burners and you heat up the water and the pipes goes there and the ash goes down. That's about as much as I understand of that. But you want to all the time monitor what's going on. You want to monitor what's going on, because ash can build up on the pipes like you see here at the top or it could clog in the burner or it could fall down in one big heap and cause a massive dent down here that can impact your performance or the worst of everything, a water pipe convert and start leaking and you wouldn't know it without imaging inside.  Every single furnace like this, whether it's a power plant, a paper mill, a steel mill has multiple of those. In this case, 3 cameras. Those are kind of the images you see in there. We sell those for $20,000 to $30,000 a piece. So that's one example of a nice application that we're really enjoying and managed to make a dent there. Okay. Talking quickly about program. I do not have any news about NGSRI. I will only be sharing whatever has not been shared publicly. We're at a very critical point of the program right now, and we have to be extremely sensitive, both in terms of competition and that we're under very strict directions there. But everyone knows the potential there for us is per missile $5,000 to $10,000 and the volume of missiles could be up to 10,000 missiles a year at full rate production. You can do your own homework and estimates of how many missiles the Army is going to want, when and how, that's roughly the numbers we share.  The SPIER program, the Shipboard Panoramic Electro-Optic Infrared is the full name of it, is a program in which we install on every Navy surface vessel at least 2 ultra-long-range cameras, sometimes 4. U.S. has some hundreds of vessels, you can find the numbers publicly again. I'm not going to go into those. But we expect it to be up to $20 million a year. We are right now this month actually shipping first units for that and are expecting the LRIP. LRIP stands for Low Rate Initial Production any day. And the border patrol, where we went into this knowing that G5 went into the acquisition, knowing G5 provides Elbit of America, the cameras and bit of big players there. We are now providing the cameras to at least 2 players. We might be providing 2 players.  The number of towers went up significantly. They were talking about 300 towers. Now it's like 1,200 towers, adding towers along the northern border because apparently Canadians want to infiltrate as well. I would make a joke about hockey and lots of other programs, I'm not going to go into all of them, we don't have enough time. But just some looking ahead, this is over to you Al. [Technical Difficulty]

You've got slide after this. [indiscernible] So what you really want to know is what's going to happen next, I think. So backlog at the end of December, $97 million, a little spoiler alert, it's $103 million as of yesterday afternoon. So we're tracking pretty well against our overall revenue goals there. We look at the backlog a little bit. It's 85% of the backlog is defense, surveillance, security and public safety. And I call out those 4 things because, as Sam said, our products are dual use. So some of them are not really purely defense, public safety, for example, is not purely defense. But it's the same system. This could be for public safety or it could be used for defense.  13% of the backlog is commercial. However, caution you, commercial orders tend to be shorter in duration, 3 months, 6 months. So the backlog doesn't reflect like defense would. Defense tends to be long term, 12 and even 18 months of orders that you don't normally get that from the commercial side. So I don't think the revenue split will be 8% in defense and 15%. The interesting part here, though, is 70% of that backlog is scheduled to be shipped in the calendar year 2026. So Sam will give you an idea of we're up to what we're up to these days.

Okay. Some of the near-term pipeline opportunities, I'll emphasize opportunities. I'm not saying we necessarily want those gives you a sort of where we're doubling about what we're playing with. So, counter-UAS, I mentioned a few times. Just to mention 3 programs as an example. The FIFA World Cup, very big ones actually started awarding some. Every stadium has to be protected for counter-UAS. This is now being well over the FIFA, where we know of NFL teams that are looking at our systems and testing them for drone detection and such. Again, we don't shoot down the drone, right? It's more of a knowing that is there and being able to take different actions. But an optical system or eyes on the target are a must for any drone detection system. So there are many other technologies there. There's radar, there is acoustic detection and things. There will always in every system be at least one camera there. You have to have a visual. All these other things can never get you guaranteed to know that's a drone and not a bird or a plane or things. And we've seen images where it looks even in the visible camera as a drone and you realize it's actually a plane just way further out. So you need a lot of those technologies working together, integrated, there's a lot of software behind that.  Department of Homeland Security, DHS has a few programs. One is for border patrol, one along the border. So, I guess that ties into everyone knows now about the lasers that was used or tried there. And some are internal in the U.S. Then you have the Defense on National Capital region's another one. And then you have the Air Force sUAS system, SUADS, which I talked about, 3 different systems there. We are the camera of choice in every one of them. They're being deployed already around every Air Force space, at least in Europe and later maybe was that. Other things, we have additional future opportunities. I would say that to some degree, Visimid has turned into a sort of heat-seeking expert, if you would, the NGSRI has driven quite a bit of interest and quite a bit going on there that we have quite some there. Space programs, we talked about optical assemblies for FPV drones, we do a lot of this. I mean we just do a tremendous amount of assemblies like we saw in that image tiny 1 lens, 2 lens assemblies. We produce them now also in retail because they produce them to some country they buy, Europe in very large volumes. And the different programs here, drone dominant or whatever the name it is, pretty much all of them have this in some pipe. We are not playing on the camera side in that, that is more driven by the sensor companies like FLIR, DRS and such, but we are providing the optical assemblies for most of them. And then we have existing missile programs. Some of them have been going on for years. LightPath for example, has publicly talked about making optics that go into the A9 side window. You might have seen images of it here. We're very proud of it. It's been ongoing for many, many years. Those are scaling up. Like every missile program we are in existing program is pretty much tripling in size and production throughput. So we're enjoying that too.

New products.

Yes. So what's coming up is the pipeline, just to give some taste there. So obviously, on G5 side, quite a bit, the redesign of the cameras by end of the autumn, we plan to have all the cameras using BlackDiamond instead of Germania. Performance is the same or improved. So you wouldn't even be able to know it's a different camera design when you look at it, even when you take it apart, to be honest, you wouldn't probably know that. It's the same size, identical size, weight interface, nothing changes in that. Optical performance is at least the same. In some cases, it's even a bit better. So we're redesigning the 1,000-millimeter camera. With the BlackDiamond, we actually might be able to push it to be 1,030 millimeter. Sounds small, but it's actually every bit [Indiscernible]. So that's a very big effort inside the company. On the optics side, we continue to expand offering by adding more and more of those fixed focus assemblies. They work with camera detectors such as FLIR's Boson, S1M and so on. Sometimes we provide them to customers that buy from the detector and assemble it. Sometimes we provide them to the companies that make the detectors. For example, Seek Thermal is one of those companies out in Santa Barbara. We provide them pretty much with all their optics that goes into the cameras, and it's been talked about publicly.  Driving the TRL level, Technology Readiness Level for more of the NRL compositions, that's now with effort by Steve Milky and the team in Amorphous helping a lot there. All the time, more and more design wins for BlackDiamond in defense programs. And the Amorphous Materials that we acquired, I mentioned Amorphous had a portfolio of 8 materials as their own. Amorphous never offered them as optics, only as raw material for others to make lenses. So of course, we can immediately offer lenses if anyone wants. But more importantly is between the 14 coating chambers that we have in Riga in G5 in New Hampshire and here in Orlando, we can also, are developing coatings for all those materials. So we'll be able to offer much more that. Amorphous' revenue is probably about $3 million a year, $2 million, $3 million a year, give or take, only of selling the materials, we'll expand on that because we can offer much more now. Over to you Al. [Indiscernible]

Our approach to M&A, Sam actually said a lot of this already. So it's a little bit of a repeat. Obviously, it's accretive. We do not want to buy a fixer upper. We want something that we can plug and play into our organization. Obviously, technology, product, we're looking for something in a fast-growing market segment. Culture. We're looking for strong cultural fit. I'll come back to that. Growth. But so far, we've identified companies that are pre-late stage. Visimid, G5 and dare I say, of Amorphous are $3 billion, a year from now, I'm hoping we'll tell you something completely different there. Not so easy to find. You really have to spend a lot of time upfront in pre-due diligence just to get to know the part, so we're definitely looking for companies that fit that profile and vertical integration. So anything that helps us in our strategy of vertical integration.  Why I want to jump back to culture is because the culture eats strategy for lunch, I can make that up. You guys know that. So culture is very, very important in terms of the post-merger integration process so that what we buy fits, right? And we don't have that hurdle. We have every other hurdle in integration, but not that one. Pathway to profitability. This is now just a summary of everything set up till now, right? We're in a multibillion-dollar infrared imaging market. BlackDiamond is a differentiator. It's an alternative to Germanium, of course, but it's also technologically superior, right, in a bunch of different ways. Strategically or directionally, we're a solutions provider. That doesn't change. We have $90 million, sorry for that, $103 million as of today in backlog, and it is predominantly government. New commercial applications, Sam went through. We didn't talk a lot about this. I did have some side conversations with a few of you about efficiency within the design team, taking design to manufacturing and manufacturing itself. Having this level of backlog, we have to be very efficient on the back end. But ultimately, our pathway to profitability comes through revenue growth, but it's not like we're not doing the blocking and tackling to get things right as well. We do both of that. And we're sizing the company, the production, the new product introduction path for capabilities to try in excess of $300 million in 5 years. Sam mentioned...

$150 million is just no longer a chat.

5 years ago, I said $150 million, even 3 years ago, I said $150 million. Sam believes in being ambitious. So we are literally building an organization to do that. All right. We talked a little bit about the facilities. Sam did mention that the one place where we didn't have backup was Glass and in Orlando. In the next well, the acquisition solves that problem, but certainly within the next 3 to 6 months, we'll have sufficient redundancies in both areas. These are great locations, by the way. If you're in the defense and commercial business, these are great footprints for manufacturing and being sort of the right place at the right time for engineers and competency in the markets that we play in.  Yes. Well, everybody always wants to know about cash, right, because we're small companies, how much cash you guys going to need not going to give you an exact answer. But we had $73.5 million in cash on hand as of 12/31. We also paid off $5.4 million note for as part of the G5 acquisition. So that was done before December 31 as well.  For fiscal year '26, we obviously just already did the AMI acquisition. We have the G5 earn-out that actually is 3 days from now. We started the CapEx expansion for those of you here physically, you start saw some of the work that's being done, certainly not all. And most of that will be here in Texas. And for the fiscal year, we'll be operating cash positive at the operating level.  And fiscal '27, G5 earnout, these are major cash events, we call it G5 earn-out #2, continue the CapEx expansion. More related to growth and capability. If you imagine that chart to the right, we definitely have our work out for us. But we'll finish fiscal year 2027 well positioned on cash. $65 million raise does put us in a different position, and we'll have dry powder for acquisitions even if you allow me. So that's true. It's not just me, everyone else we'll be positioned pretty well even then, right?  So we're in a good spot. Question I do get asked often is sort of where we are in terms of shares and dilution. The common shares are $55 million out there, and that's the basis for the EPS. You saw that in the filing in December. We come out with sort of the all-in comment.  If you convert the Series G and PIK preferred, which is for the G5 acquisition, there's no warrants outstanding, so that's great. Those are gone. G5 is and just do general stock incentives for the directors and our ESOP program and everything else. We're sort of fully diluted at about $73 million. That opens it up for questions. We're taking questions.

Austin Moeller, Canaccord Genuity Corp. So, I cover a lot of satellite companies on the electro-optical and infrared side, Maxar, BlackSky, [Indiscernible], et cetera. And so, I was just wondering where you think you would your products would be strategically positioned in the telescope sector. I know like Raytheon is at the very high end and then there's like DRS that's becoming involved as well. And so I guess just based on like 17-inch diameter versus some of the other really very high-resolution exquisite telescopes where your products might be.

Yes. So I'd say from a supply point of view, some players like L3Harris, for example, that have extensive design capabilities in-house. They're not going to design in production. So they would probably want us to make the optics, but maybe not [Indiscernible] some of the newer players that as new entrants tend to be, they're focusing on their strengths and not trying to do everything themselves.  And so in those cases, we could be supplying a fully assembled telescope for all that. In terms of size and such, it's very dependent on functionality and distance of the satellite. So lower orbit geosynchronous such can be very different ones. The SDA has been talking about what they call a neighborhood satellite. I guess sort of in the sense of satellites that are so specific to an area, they almost like cover a neighborhood or a very small portion.  Historically, because the satellite is so expensive, launch so expensive, everything, you would have 1, 2, 3 mega satellites sitting in geosynchronous and imaging the entire half of the plan they can see. Now with lower orbit and with constellations, it talks about hundreds of satellites, thousands of them, almost disposable like.  So one degree on one hand, short lifespan of 2 years. On the other hand, launch is already becoming so readily available as programs talking about having an inventory of satellites ready to launch at 24-hour notice so that they can launch and cover specific areas when they need it. So I'm not sure if that answers the question in full, that's how I see it.

Yes. I would assume the replacement cycle there on LEO and LEO is obviously very favorable to your operation.

Yes, 2 years, tranches pretty much. So the commercial go much faster, and we work with quite a few of the commercial ones. The planning of SDA and those guys are tranches.

Maybe a question for both of you on M&A. You had a slide there and talked a little bit about it. I'd love to get your sense of a few different things here. I guess the first thing is about where any other so the ones you've done so far, which obviously has been successful other than Amorphous, which seems like it can be very successful, been companies you've known very well and even worked with.  And I would also imagine another avenue to identifying these companies is through defense primes who might see Visimid is doing some great work but isn't big enough. Are you seeing that as another avenue to find these companies? And then ultimately, what's the appetite for doing something in the next year of any real size like G5?

So appetite definitely so. We're actually seeing it sometimes the other way around. We're seeing a small company. We love the potential and we validate within defense prime that they are really going to be a major part of it or the defense prime is thinking of them for specific program or so on. So kind of similar to Visimid in a way, Visimid, we didn't come across them because of NGS.  Made it very clear during the due diligence when you contact that they would be filled by that and it worked out very well, right? Amorphous is 8% of their revenue or so goes to one very large defense prime and the defense prime was ecstatic by the fact that we picked them up and they're part of our family now.  So we definitely see that as a possibility. We try to keep in touch with defense primes to make it clear that that is something we are open to discussing when they have that, not always know who are the right people to talk to, but we try to do that.  In terms of appetite, answer would be very different here. So I have an appetite all the time. But the team is very, very stretched, right? [Audio Gap] Size pretty much. We're on track to continue at a break that speed. We have a lot of different things we need to execute on. And even though the size of our bench has increased 3 years ago through an acquisition, it was the 2 of us.  We did the entire due diligence and everything and pretty much or with Natalie actually doing most of it. But now we have a bigger bench, and we have with acquisitions, came more people, very, very talented people, and we recruit more seniors, so we can do a bit more.  But the more we moved very, very quickly. I mean it was like less than 2 months from concept from contacting them to closing the acquisition. So I think the team needs to signal to me when they are ready but we definitely have the opportunities. We have an interesting pipeline. And the nice thing about having cash in the bank and about showing that you've done 3 successful acquisitions is people stop calling you.

You know anybody [Indiscernible].

In terms of capacity expansion, you're talking pretty aggressively. When we think about CapEx for that, is it pretty linear? Or are there any sort of long lead time big step function capacity that has to be added? Or is this a pretty linear process?

The next 12 to 18 months will probably be a bit heavier because we need to catch up on some CapEx that we were sort of not doing when we were on cash and couldn't do them. And we're launching some very significant product lines. And after that, spitting it out. It is again, the higher value items that we go to we go up chains and less CapEx intensive, right? So we're starting to benefit from that. I mean the old would need very significant CapEx as a percent of revenue compared to what we need.

Yes. Just you've mentioned sort of this 3- to 5-year window. Is that just based on kind of other competitors that will catch up from a product standpoint or just given the number of programs you were.

Yes. It's based on the assumption that no one is sitting back and just letting us eat their cake and take their lunch. People are working on alternatives to on other alternatives to Germanium. U.S. government and other governments are working on getting production of Germanium. But it's also remind, we've shown our materials are offered a lot more than just alternative to Germanium. So it's more of we have a golden opportunity right now to be a bit more aggressive and capture more significantly market share.

[Indiscernible] from Piper Sandler. I was just curious about the implication of the cost structure as you decontent G5. Is this a place where there's immediate cost benefit? Or will you have to scale into those new products of BlackDiamond?

Redesign Okay. Let me put it this way. When Germanium was $1,000 a kilo, we were struggling to be competitive with BlackDiamond. But Germanium was $1,000 a kilo because China was subsidizing it heavily to drive all other players out in the market. When Germanium went up to $2,000 a kilo, which happened after the first announcement of China, BlackDiamond became competitive easily. Germanium is now at $6,800 a kilo, and we're not planning to change the pricing of the cameras of G5 when we take them with BlackDiamond. So we'll benefit. Any other questions?

Yes, Richard, please. Kind of looking at the technology and product development, or as more of a technology question here, but the Amorphous Materials acquisition gave you bigger geometries. BlackDiamond is a different material composition and then you talked about coatings. Is there any other major elements to today's differentiation or where you may be going? Like are there other angles of differentiation you can add in the future?

Yes. But I'm not sure at the point of sharing them too much. In times into the 3 to 5 years, we never rest and say this is what we have and that is it. The things we can develop and do now with Amorphous with people like Steve Milky here and capabilities of the different teams that will keep creating differentiators. I don't want to share too much about what they are because it's a public broadcast. I don't know who is everyone listening. But we're investing some of our money in our part of R&D to continue to develop differentiate.

And then just a quick follow-up on 2 of these angles here. So obviously, Amorphous gives you the bigger diameter lenses up to 17 inches. Is there a need and interest in going much bigger than that?

I'm not familiar with any need right now.

You said you have 20 material systems in the BlackDiamond portfolio, maybe not just BlackDiamond in total, like how many more could there need? What are some ways that you.

There are some other types of materials we might look at doing down the road. So for example, the BlackDiamond, which as I mentioned, cover long wave, mid-wave, short wave, some of them cover the near infrared. None of them covers the visible.  We've been focusing on infrared, not because we want to do just infrared, but because when we decided to do the shift, it was clear that the visible was much more crowded in terms of technology and established technology where infrared was changing and it was an opportunity for us to enter.  Our technologies of making the materials, whether they are an Amorphous type of material or other types of glass or fabricating from them and building systems could apply to visible light, apply to ultraviolet light, apply to [indiscernible]. So we could see going down that path.

So obviously, there's a lot of opportunity right now on the military side with like the drone dance program and the initiative to procure 2 million drones in the next 2 to 3 years. How does on the commercial side, the ban the FCC ban on Chinese drones open up the opportunity for LightPath and how might you think about optics for commercial drones in the U.S. in your revenue mix?

So I think it still is still out a bit in how exactly the FCC ban is going to roll out it's been on one hand, it was for those who don't know, the FCC ban was supposed to be the DJI ban called correctly. And it turned out when they published it that the FCC is banning any new drones or critical drone components from any country outside the U.S.  But in fine print, unless DoD or DoE now and Department of Homeland Security provide an exemption to those companies. So I don't know yet what the level of that exemption is going to be, how it's going to play out in the cameras. I do know that there are companies looking at doing final assemblies of cameras here in the U.S., so not necessarily building the entire camera, but doing final assembly.  And in that case, they will need our thermal imaging assembly. So those same fixed focus small assembly that we were showing we provide a lot of drone companies. We were not looking at providing them. We're not thinking that would be necessarily an opportunity for the U.S. part that much because we thought the cameras would be coming from Taiwan, where they produce those lenses, similar lenses in volume.  Now that it looks like they will need to be assembled here, it is very likely that those assemblies we're going to need to produce here. And Israel Piergiovanni, where VP Manufacturing is tasked with scaling up that production here in all. So it's a good opportunity there.  We're probably not going to go into the complete camera part of the smaller drones. That is driven and dominated by whoever makes the sensor. So we're less positioned to be able to have a dominant position there; so to speak, but the larger drones where let's say, payload and more than just a tiny camera, there we can start providing with our newer compact cameras and Zoom and so on. Richard?

Quick question for Al. You mentioned being operating cash flow positive in fiscal '26 and '27. Do those include or exclude the G5 earn-outs?

Exclude G5 [earn-outs or investment]. So just at the operating rate.

Okay. All right. Thanks. This concludes today's webcast. Thank you for attending. You may now disconnect.