Metsä Board Oyj (METSB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, and welcome to Metsa Board's January-September Interim Report Webcast and Conference Call. My name is Katri Sundstrom, and I'm responsible for Investor Relations at Metsa Board. The presentation will follow the usual format. CEO, Esa Kaikkonen; and CFO, Henri Sederholm will present the results, after which we will open the conference call for questions. You can also submit questions via the chat function, and I will present them to the management after we have taken the questions from the line. And please note an important reminder as today's presentation may contain forward-looking statements. But now we are ready to get started. Thank you for joining us today, and I will now hand over to Esa.

Thank you, Katri, and good afternoon on my behalf as well. Before we move to the Q3 results, let's take a moment to look at the key themes shaping our actions right now. First, the market environment remains challenging, and this continues to put pressure on our business. Our recent financial performance underlines the need for decisive measures. To address this, we have launched a comprehensive cost saving and profitability improvement program with around 350 different initiatives. I will return to this later in the presentation. At an early stage of the transformation, we are placing strong emphasis on strengthening cash flow. In Q3, we succeeded exceptionally well. Operating cash flow reached EUR 122 million. For the time being, we are updating our strategy to unlock long-term growth and value creation as well. Together, these steps demonstrate our commitment to adapting and acting decisively for a stronger future. Strong competitive advantages give us a solid foundation, the same strength that have made us a leader in high-quality packaging solutions. First and foremost, our people, highly skilled and deeply committed to Metsa Board's success and continuous development. We have also long-standing customer relationships built on the trust and the strong performance of our paperboards supported by a wide range of services. Our production is backed by decades of expertise and our quality consistently earns top ratings. Customers also value our high sustainability standards and transparent value chain. Together, these strengths form a powerful platform for transformation and long-term growth and value creation. Let's now turn to our results for January to September, and starting with an overview of the third quarter of 2025. Profitability was in red and impacted by low pulp prices, big maintenance and investment shutdowns as well as market-driven production curtailments, which were due to various factors, including U.S. imports tariffs that reduced folding boxboard orders. And Husum will -- Husum integrate, and mill was hit hardest as it serves U.S. customers and includes our only chemical pulp mill. Paperboard deliveries declined versus Q2, reflecting the continued weak demand. Transformation program was implemented to restore competitiveness and ensure long-term profitability. And as already mentioned, cash flow improved significantly during the quarter, driven by a substantial release of working capital. After the review period, we initiated change negotiations covering all of our employees. These negotiations may lead to a reduction of up to 315 positions, including approximately 155 in Finland. Of course, these are difficult but necessary measures to align our cost structure with the market reality. Finally, the modernization project at Simpele has been completed and the upgraded board machine is now in operation. This is a very good achievement. This investment marks a significant milestones in product performance and supports our transition towards the fossil-free production. Then the business development and starting with the folding boxboard. The presentation format is a bit different than earlier. I hope that it creates more transparency in our business. In Europe, demand has remained subdued, while supply has increased, keeping capacity utilization below the long-term average. In the U.S., a 15% import tariff came into effect in early August. Folding boxboard can be substituted with heavier locally available grades, which has limited our ability to fully pass on the tariff impact. The price increases have only been partially successful. U.S. delivery volumes declined already in the Q2 compared to the previous quarters and have not yet recovered. Overall, year-to-date delivery volumes for folding boxboard are down by 9%, while average euro price have remained stable. Here, the weaker dollar has been offset by the partial price increases. Then the white kraftliners. In Europe, demand has been stable but moderate for both coated and uncoated grades. In the U.S., our sales focus is almost entirely on coated white kraftliners, and this product is difficult to substitute, which has allowed us to implement price increases corresponding to tariffs rather well. Delivery volumes as well as average euro prices remained fairly stable. And then let's move on to the pulp. Weak consumer sentiment continues to weigh on market pulp demand in both Europe and China. The removal of tariffs on pulp imports to the U.S. has slightly reduced global trade uncertainty. Prices for softwood pulp remained depressed across all regions, with China approaching unsustainable levels for many producers. Production has been adjusted in our group as well to reflect lower demand. Metsa Fibre's Joutseno mill has been curtailed since early summer. And looking at the volumes, Metsa Board's pulp and BCTMP deliveries declined by 13% year-on-year. Metsa Fibre's strong development is largely explained by the explosion at the Kemi mill in 2024, which significantly impacted their delivery volumes then. Yet both companies are operating clearly below the capacity. And now I will let Henri to go through the financials.

Thank you, Esa, and good afternoon. In 2025, our sales has declined slightly each quarter following the overall volume trend. Q3 ended at EUR 441 million, bringing the year-to-date figure to approximately EUR 1.4 billion. Profitability, as has been mentioned several times, remains at a highly unsatisfactory level. As we guided in our previous earnings release, the comparable operating result was expected to deteriorate. For Q3 and for the entire reporting period, we posted an operating loss of EUR 46 million. Then let's take a closer look at the bridges. Comparable operating result moved from EUR 42 million in Q3 '24 to a loss of EUR 46 million in Q3 '25. While FX impacts, including hedging, provided some support, these were heavily outweighed by several negatives, lower market pulp prices, weaker contribution from Metsa Fibre, reduced paperboard delivery volumes and market-related production shutdowns. In addition, last year's gains from the sale of unused emission rights did not recur this quarter. It's also important to note that Q3 '24 included EUR 23 million in insurance compensations related to the gas explosion at Metsa Fibre's Kemi bioproduct mill in spring '24. Looking at the full review period, the comparable operating result decreased from EUR 73 million in '24 to a loss of EUR 46 million in '25. Positives included slightly higher paperboard prices in local currencies and lower chemical costs. In the negative side, we had lower market pulp prices, which also lowers paperboards inventory value, weaker results share from Metsa Fibre, reduced delivery volumes and market-related production shutdowns. Cost for wood and logistics increased as did maintenance costs and depreciation. The gain from the sale of unused emission rights was EUR 15 million lower this year compared to last year. Next, let's look at an area where we delivered real strength, cash flow. Along with our transformation program, we set a target to release EUR 150 million of working capital. We performed exceptionally well against this goal, releasing a total of EUR 120 million in operational working capital during Q3. This was achieved mainly by curtailing production, which lowered inventory levels, but also through financing arrangements related to payables. Cash flow from operation and cash flow after investments were clearly positive in the third quarter. At the end of the period, our total interest-bearing debt stood at EUR 551 million and net debt was EUR 338 million, which is clearly down from the levels seen in the first half of the year. Liquidity remained strong at over EUR 400 million, split roughly 50-50 between liquid assets and unused revolving credit facilities. After the review period, we renewed our previous RCF with a new EUR 250 million sustainability-linked facility, further strengthening our financial resilience. Metsa Board continues to hold an investment-grade rating from both Moody's and S&P. And finally, it's worth noting that the elevated leverage clearly above our target level of 2.5 is largely due to weak profitability. And now back to you, Esa.

Thank you, Henri. Before moving on to the outlook, let's take a quick look at our investments. The major investment projects are now behind us, and our focus is to make the most of the recent capacity expansions in Husum and Kemi. This means sharpening our sales and marketing efforts, which play a significant role in our transformation. In October, we also completed approximately EUR 60 million investment to modernize the Simpele paperboard machine, as I was referring to earlier as well. Our estimate for this year's CapEx is approximately EUR 100 million. We have also decided to discontinue all our investments in pre-engineering phase as their expected returns would not meet their targets in the current market environment. In addition, the Metsa Group-wide ERP project has been put on hold for the time being. In today's challenging and volatile market environment, our priority is to safeguard our cash flow. For now, we will not give an operating result guidance. Yet we aim to provide a comprehensive and transparent view of the key market trends and company-specific factors, ensuring that the markets have the best possible understanding of what drives our business and outlook. First, let's look at the operating environment and what we have expected for the next 3 to 6 months. In Paperboard, weak consumer sentiment and U.S. tariffs continue to make sales development unpredictable. In Europe, overcapacity adds pressure and in North America, demand is expected to stay weak. Global pulp demand remains stagnant as well. In Europe, production is further being limited by high raw material costs and weakening U.S. dollar. Lower wood cost in Finland and Sweden should support profitability from 2026 onwards. We have long avoided negative FX impacts through hedging, but this will start to show now slightly in Q4 first and more clearly early next year. Then let's look at the Metsa Board specific items and their impacts on the fourth quarter. First, their cash flow-based steering continues. Market-driven production curtailments are thus expected at all mills continuing to negatively impacting profitability. This has a particular impact on our Husum integrate. Operating cash flow is expected to remain positive. Paperboard delivery volumes are expected to decline due to normal seasonality. On the positive side then, we'll have less planned maintenance, although the ramp-up at Simpele may involve some production uncertainty. Employee costs will also increase from Q3 based on our -- on seasonality. And finally, there is a possibility that the final insurance compensations related to the 2024 Kemi bioproduct mill accidents will be recognized in the Q4 results. And now few words about the strategic directions and the operating environment remains -- strategic direction remains unchanged. We continue to focus on growth in fresh fiber-based packaging. At the same time, we have started updating our strategy to reflect the changing market environment and our future ambitions with an update planned for the first quarter of 2026. While the long-term direction is clear, our immediate priority is improving the cash flow and profitability as we have been stating many times earlier. To achieve this, we have launched now a cost saving and profitability improvement program, targeting an annual EBITDA run rate increase of EUR 200 million by the end of 2027 and a EUR 150 million release in working capital. In the early phase, results will be primarily coming -- come from cost savings, while actions to drive profitability growth will follow as the program progresses. Next, a bit deeper look into the program's content and progression. First, we need to be fit for the future, building a leaner, more competitive cost base aligned with the current market realities. Then we can drive margin expansion and accelerate growth through complexity reduction and commercial excellence. And how we are doing this? On fixed costs, we are reducing personnel expenses as we were referring to the statutory negotiations already earlier. More saving potential is expected through Metsa Group's statutory negotiations. In procurement, we are driving savings through logistics improvements by route and mode optimization and reducing external spend in maintenance and ICT. On mill productivity, we are, example given, optimizing pulp and chemical use, reducing complexity and improving energy efficiency. Finally, in commercial excellence, we are sharpening our focus on value-creating segments such as food, food service and health care, and we're gaining share in Europe and North America. The commercial strategy developed in Q3 is now moving into implementation. While these targets are ambitious and challenging, we admit, we are confident in our ability to achieve them. As we have already mentioned, our efforts to release working capital and strengthen cash flow have been highly successful. Most of the release has come from the inventory reductions, but we have also seen positive development in payables and receivables. Going forward, we'll be maintaining strict discipline on working capital and cash flow will remain a top priority in the coming years. And then to summarize, market environment remains challenging, and we must improve our ability to adapt. We deliver everything that is in our own hands. Profitability is unsatisfactory, yet we are supported by the strong financial position that we have. Our transformation has delivered already promising early results and maintaining this progress and momentum requires further capital discipline. The cash flow improvement achieved in Q3 was a good performance and as part of our measures, we discontinued investments in the pre-engineering phase. And where we do focus next? We continue to steer the business with a strong focus on cash flows and customer centricity, ensuring resilience and agility in a volatile market environment. Operationally, this will likely mean that market-related production curtailments will continue towards the end of the year. At the same time, we are driving our transformation forward with a strong momentum and commitment and reporting on financial impacts will start from Q4 2025 onwards. Finally, the plan work on our strategy update is progressing, and we plan to share the revised strategy with you during the first quarter of 2026. And that concludes our presentation part, and we are ready now to take your questions. Operator, please go ahead and open the lines.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Linus Larsson from SEB.

Maybe starting off with your Americas business. Shipments amounted to some 100,000 tons in the quarter. How much of that was subject to tariffs? And what was the total tariff cost in the quarter? And second to that, how much of that tariff cost could you cover by price increases? And how much of that cost did you just have to carry yourself?

Please Henri, if you can?

Yes. If I start, so I can say that majority of the volumes was on the tariffs of the volumes that we delivered during this quarter. But unfortunately, we don't publish those exact amounts of tariffs.

I'm just thinking because as you said in the presentation, the tariffs only hit sometime into August. And I know you also had some inventory going into this tariff situation. So that's why I wondered if it was -- and you also sell to other countries than the U.S. for that matter. So that's the reason for my question.

Yes, we appreciate the question, but we are not going to the details. There are, of course, currency impact as well. We have had a headwind on the currencies a bit as well. And then this tariff issue and, let's say, how much those tariffs are impacted our warehouses and everything, it would be very, very complicated to open all of this. But maybe the big picture in here is that as we have been saying regarding the prices, the prices in the market of FBB has -- they have been stable. And in the U.S., we have gotten, let's say, price increases that are bigger in the kraftliner than in FBB, and we have been compensating this partly, but not the big -- let's say that we have been -- in FBB, we have been able to push the prices up on a local currencies to some extent, but not covering the full effect of the tariffs. And then in white kraftliners, most of the tariffs have been absorbed in the prices, and we have been able to push those pricing in the form of price increases further to the market. I hope that is helpful?

Yes, yes. No, that's helpful. And then now we're some time into the fourth quarter, I'm guessing, but I'm thinking probably you've exhausted the inventory that you had. You have a full quarter of tariffs, whereas in the third quarter, it wasn't the entire quarter. So are you expecting a step-up in tariff costs in the fourth quarter compared to the third quarter ending up with you rather than your customers. Is there an incremental burden carried by yourself Q4 compared to Q3?

Yes. I would say that if it would have been substantial in comparison to this quarter, we would be guiding that through in our company-specific items, so it's not substantial. There is some kind of an effect or Henri can maybe add on this one, but there will be an impact, but it's not substantial if you take the overall, let's say, results of the company.

Yes, I agree. Yes.

Okay. That's great. And then a different set of questions relating to downtime and maybe starting with Metsa Fibre, a very challenging quarter apparently. But Metsa Fibre also took a lot of planned market-related downtime in the third quarter. What's the curtailment schedule looking like in the fourth compared to the third quarter in Metsa Fibre and in Metsa Board, please?

Well, what we have been saying in production curtailments market related, I think that we are not expecting big changes in the Metsa Board side. And then in Metsa Fibre's part will be -- Joutseno has been already standing since spring, and we are not assuming that it will be starting up anytime soon. It will be started before the winter arrives, but we don't have an exact time for that currently.

Okay. So you're saying that the curtailment schedules look pretty similar Q4 versus Q3?

Yes.

The next question comes from Robin Santavirta from DNB Carnegie.

Now you're the largest producer of folding boxboard in Europe. If I look at the markets right now, they seem to be quite significantly oversupplied, potentially getting even worse with Stora Enso launching new capacity in Oulu. And then with the problematics in North America, where a lot of European guys cannot sell normally in North America. It seems as quite a challenging market. So I was wondering, I guess, you now discussing pricing for folding boxboard Europe 2026. Could you shed some light on those discussions? I mean you're deeply in the red here, you will have quite significant negative FX sort of impact on earnings in 2026. But everything I see and read relates to quite significant declines in folding boxboard pricing going into 2026. What are you sort of -- what is happening in the market when it comes to pricing? And what kind of measures are you taking to make sure that prices would hold up better than the current speculations?

Thank you, Robin, for the question. I think that that's very topical, I would say, in a way, seeing clearly that the market the same way. At the same time, as I was referring and we were referring to in our quarterly results as well, the biggest impact on the market is currently in Husum integrate. And that is the concern that we have mostly currently at hand, and we have been acting pretty swiftly to actually correct those as well. And this transformation program measures also what comes to the cost cutting is targeted. A big part of those are targeted into our Husum integrate. So we are answering to these pressures through, of course, being more cost competitive in the market, of course, goes through the whole mill fleet, but especially in Husum, which is the mostly suffering on the current situation, the biggest mill and biggest integrate that we have. And seeing what comes to the annual negotiations, we have roughly 40% -- a little bit less than 40% of our volumes are under the annual contracts, and we are in the early stage of those discussions currently. And we will not give a forward-looking view in our prices, but the market situation, of course, is having an impact on the overall sentiment as you were referring to. But I will not kind of go into the negotiations that much because we don't have any news to break at this point of time.

I understand. But I was just wondering, would it make sense for you and for Stora Enso or maybe a few other Nordic producers to simply make sure that your own ship is very tight and simply close the weakest assets, because now it seems to me it's not a question of -- sure there's some cyclicality included and the markets will be some -- I mean, is it then '26 or '27 maybe better demand at some space. But now it seems to be a case where the capacity utilization is getting so low that the paper curtailment of production is not enough. So are you looking at your weakest mills? And in order to not get into this pack of problematics where all of a sudden, we realize that you have been running a mill or losses for 2 years. Would it now be smart -- you have the big cost-cutting program to just make sure that you have a very tight sort of a competitive production, that to me, would then also include a closure. Is that at all what you are looking at? Or is it just to try to be more efficient and then temporary curtail production?

Robin, that's, again, very, very good question, and I think that we have been discussing this earlier as well. And our -- if you're looking at our mill fleet, it's well invested. We have really competent people and really committed customer base in our mills as well. We have just closed Tako mill, and we have been circulating our products and customers in our other mills very, very successful. So I'm not concerned. As I said, the situation currently that we have at hand is more of an U.S. problem on FBB side than the, let's say, domestic issue for us. And we believe that we have a kind of a competitive and really specialized and quality-wise, excellent mill fleet to answer that the customer needs that we have.

That is very clear. Final quick question to Henri. Can you help me with this current FX spot rates, what's the EBIT impact 2026? Ballpark is enough.

So I think I also earlier commented about the sort of effective dollar rates that we are seeing as hedged. So we are for this year at the level of 1.08 roughly. And when we get to the spot rates, you will be able to calculate that the 10% change in the U.S. dollar is roughly EUR 60 million. So you will get the kind of idea from that.

The next question comes from Joni Sandvall from Nordea.

Maybe a follow-up on the Husum mill. Can you give us a reminder of the ramp-up there? Are you still expecting -- are you at full speed there? And correct me if I'm wrong, but were these additional volumes targeted to go to U.S.? Obviously, I'm asking this because as mentioned many times, the European market is in oversupply. So what to do actually with these volumes?

Thank you, Joni, for the question. This Husum mill after the investment that we had of increasing the capacity by 200,000 tons is the capacity is 600,000 tons and it's a modern new facility and very competitive as well. But of course, at this situation, it was specified for the -- predominantly to the U.S. and this is, of course, having currently the impact. Just kind of in the ramp-up curve, all of this kind of a geopolitical situation has changed quite rather dramatically and has an impact to our, let's say, capacity utilization rate. But technically speaking, the mill is excellent. It produces what it should be -- what we are expecting that to produce. So in that sense, we have all the capabilities. Currently, of course, we are looking at everything that is at our hands to sell that volume in all of our main markets that we have, meaning the Europe and U.S. as well. But the most suitable that machine is for the U.S. market. And as said, if you're looking at year-on-year, the volumes that we have had, the decline of 9%, it's not that dramatic. If you see that we have been in the U.S. market, even when the currency has been 1.6. So we have a great belief. And while I have been also visiting U.S., so excellent team there, very, very competent team, and we have an excellent service concepts and reliability and then our customers are appreciating that a lot. So I believe that we can turn -- when the market sentiment is turning, we can still grow in the U.S. as well.

Okay. Okay. That's clear. I understand that you are starting to give some indication of the run rate in Q4 of the cost-savings measures. But could you give any indication of the absolute EBITDA that you are or how large part of this initiatives you have started from the 350 that you mentioned?

Well, as I said, it's an early stage in there. Of course, the cost part is something that we will get first our hands at. And this is something that we will be starting to report. And also this profitability improvement, there are early signs that are promising. But unfortunately, I don't have numbers currently to disclose to you because we have to verify them and build the audit trail as well in order to give you accurate good information on those.

Okay. And lastly, about European ETS scheme. Is this now going to phase out during '26? Could you just remind us of the situation there?

Yes, that is our understanding.

The next question comes from Cole Hathorn from Jefferies.

Just a follow-up on the export volumes to the U.S. on folding boxboard and the white kraftliner grade. Am I right in assuming that the majority of the pressure is on the folding boxboard side versus the white kraftliner? I imagine you're probably more likely to have passed on a portion of the tariffs on the white kraftliner side. And could you just remind us, you said 50-50, that's kind of the goal to split the tariffs. And I'm just wondering if wood costs ease into 2026, is that kind of what you're looking for to also help you on your kind of cost positioning on the folding boxboard machine at [ Husum ]?

Yes, of course, market is deciding -- the first question regarding the prices, the market is deciding the market prices, so we cannot state anything on that. Currently, I said that we have been able to push some increases in the prices in the folding boxboard. And then white kraftliner, we said that a substantial part of those tariff impacts have been able to push forward. And I suppose that will be the situation also going forward that we don't expect that the market could at this stage when the consumer confidence is also rather weak in the U.S. market. So we don't see that we could be capable of actually pushing the prices upwards. It's not -- the market is not supporting that currently or as we speak. But let's see. Of course, we are following it very closely. Even the small, let's say, adjustments in the capacity in the U.S., which is rather dynamic, could change the situation, of course, very, very, very fast. And then this wood procurement side, we have been actually guiding that. As of the beginning of 2026, we'll see the prices decreasing. And if you see the statistic prices, which in Finland, we are following very, very closely, they have been -- actually have been going down by 20% from the peak level compared to the current level. So it is a significant to step down as well. And those -- when we have a standing stock consumed thereafter, we'll have an impact in the beginning of the year on the wood prices. And we are expecting some easing from that as we have been guiding.

And then this is a difficult medium-term question to answer. But post-COVID, I think everyone in the industry reevaluated upwards kind of the medium-term demand trends in packaging. And now after the cyclical downturn, delays in PPWR, people are kind of reevaluating downwards their longer-term views on kind of packaging growth. How do you think about kind of medium-term demand in folding boxboard? Have you kind of lowered your expectation of growth medium term? And how are you protecting with the wider European industry, the European business? Are you kind of trying to ensure that we're not getting imports or at least lobbying some of the trade bodies to protect against imports into the future?

Yes. If you start with, let's say, this -- the imported flow of goods to the European market, the main market, of course, we see some unhealthy, let's say, volumes coming to this region because of the U.S. has been kind of imposing tariffs to, for instance, to Asian suppliers. So in that regard, we see this development now in the Europe, but at the same time, saying that our customer base and our quality, I think that -- and our brand among our customers is so good that I'm not really concerned on the imported volumes that much in those high-value categories that we are. There are issues related to reliability, service levels, the quality and then the safety of the products, et cetera, that are, let's say, that we have been safeguarding throughout this and also the value chain and the whole, let's say, fibre security and everything is in our value proposition that could that I would not be too concerned about these imported volumes. Having said this, in the longer-term, the market growth, I think that this is like we cannot think in this industry that we would be having the same size of a cake going forward. I think that we have to take market share from different packaging material as we have been believing also earlier. And it's really difficult to say that what would be the expectations on the short-term, we know that how it is, the market is not having a tailwind too much. But the medium and long term, I'm really 100% sure that the fresh fibre packaging materials will be the winning concept going forward, taking into account this regulatory framework as well that we have in the U.S -- in the U.S. partly and in Europe, particularly. So I hope that this answered your question. I don't give any numbers on the growth but because we are currently in the phase of, let's say, making assumptions to our strategy work. And thus, I will not be updating our view on the markets in the current circumstances.

[Operator Instructions] There are no more questions at this time. So I hand the conference back to the speakers.

Okay. Let's take questions from the chat function then. And starting with the -- our decision not to give the result guidance anymore. So can you still go through the reasons for that, that why have we discontinued that?

Well, in these circumstances, it's an, let's say, impossible to give a profit guidance in that level that we were earlier. The market is so volatile, we see that we'll have to drive the business through securing our cash flow. And in this, let's say, if you see that, then we really have to see that how we are tying our capital, et cetera. So it means that we have to be really agile and act swiftly according to the market conditions, not losing the ability to serve our customers at the same time. So therefore, it's really difficult. And then taking, again, the pulp market as well, which is actually very volatile currently as well.

True. Then do you see other options on top of profitability improving to support your balance sheet and get closer to the targeted leverage?

Of course, if you're looking at our total balance sheet, so we have an items that during the process of strategy, everything when you are looking at the strategy process, you're looking at your balance sheet, of course. And through that, we see that our balance sheet is healthy. We have well-invested mill fleet. We have very good, let's say, ownership of Metsa Fibre, and they have just invested the 2 most modern pulp mills in Finland as well. So in that sense, I see that our balance sheet is really, really in a good shape in order to actually transform our business going forward as well. But I don't go into the details, of course, at this point of time.

A big follow-up there that do you see any potential divestment opportunities?

Well, I don't comment on that. But absolutely, everything in a way when you're looking at the strategy process, everything in your balance sheet, in your profitability side, how you generate the cash flow, how you win in the market, there are all the questions that we have to ask.

Yes. And then maybe for Henri this following, so a further potential to release from working capital.

Yes, absolutely, we still have not reached the EUR 150 million target. So there is definitely a potential in the short term, but also in the long term, when we start looking into the more sort of slower items that we have there and also looking into the capital tied in our commercial operations, that's also very important to look at. So we really have good ideas also for the medium term.

And what is the estimated cost of implementing your cost-reduction program?

Well, at this stage, we are not sort of estimating that cost, and we'll get back to more details later on.

And of course, there are always one-off costs when you're talking about this kind of transformation in relation to the cost cutting. So I think that the overarching theme is that we are improving our run rate in structural cost cutting and then the commercial excellence as well.

And once we have implemented these actions, then we come back on.

Yes.

Possible one-off costs. Okay. Looks like there's no more questions on the line or not in the chat. So with that, we'll conclude our result presentation. If you have any additional questions, please don't hesitate to reach out to our Investor Relations. We are happy to continue the discussion. Our next earnings release will be 2025 financial statements coming out on February 5 on 2026. Thank you all for joining us today. Wishing you a great autumn and rest of the week.