Metsä Board Oyj (METSB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, and welcome to Mets� Board's '25 Results Webcast and Conference Call. My name is Katri Sundstr�m, and I'm responsible for Investor Relations here at Mets� Board. We will follow our familiar format. First, our CEO, Esa Kaikkonen; and our new CFO, Anssi Tammilehto, who joined us 2 weeks ago, will walk you through the key highlights and financials. After their presentations, we will open the lines for your questions. You can also submit questions via the chat at any point during the webcast, and I will present them to Esa and Anssi once we have taken the questions from the phone lines. Before we begin, let me highlight this important note. But with that, we are ready to start. Thank you for joining us. And I will now hand things over to Esa.

Thank you, Katri, and good afternoon, everyone. Before we move on to the results, let me briefly highlight the key themes guiding our actions right now. Despite the challenging operating environment, we have successfully launched and begun executing our new commercial strategy where focus matters more than ever. I'll get back to this later on with a few more detailed examples. Second, our transformation program is progressing also well and already delivering promising early results. These achievements give us confidence that the actions we are taking are moving us in the right direction. Third, our strong cash flow and solid financial position provide important stability. They give us financial flexibility and ensure that we can continue operating effectively in uncertain conditions. And finally, our ongoing strategy work is sharpening our priorities as we go. It is ensuring that we are building a more competitive and customer-centric business for the long term. And then into the results. Starting with an overview of the fourth quarter of '25. Profitability remained in the red, reflecting continued market headwinds. Seasonality weighted on paperboard volumes, although prices stayed stable. Market-related shutdowns at mills continued. On a more positive note, fixed cost declined compared to the last year. In here, we are already seeing the impact from Tako closure and on our own actions. Operating cash flow improved clearly during the quarter, supported by a significant release of working capital. The renewal of the Simpele mill marked also the end of a long investment period and the upgraded board machine is now in operation. During the period, we also concluded the insurance negotiations related to 24 incidents at the Kemi bioproduct mill. The Q4 result includes EUR 14 million in compensation. Our long-standing sustainability work has once again -- has been once more recognized as we received a Triple A rating in CDP's ESG assessment. And due to the notable losses, the Board will propose to the AGM that no dividend will be distributed for the financial year '25. Then moving on to the business development, starting with folding boxboard. In Europe, demand has remained subdued, while supplies has increased, keeping capacity utilization clearly below the long-term average. In the U.S., folding boxboard sales have declined sharply due to the import tariffs generally. FBB can be partly replaced by heavier local grades, limiting our ability to pass through the tariff impact and resulting in only partially successful price increases. For the full year, delivery volumes for folding boxboard decreased by 10%, 6% in Europe and 17% in the U.S., while average euro prices remained stable. Naturally, the closure of the Tako mill was one of the factors contributing to the decline in deliveries. Annual negotiations were concluded as planned. And given the current market conditions, we are satisfied with the development, both volumes and value in the agreed 26 FBB contracts. We are gradually returning to a growth path, although in the present market environment, it remains difficult to assess how durable that growth will be. Next, containerboard, which for the Mets� Board refers to white kraftliners. In Europe, demand has remained stable but moderate for both coated and uncoated grades. In the U.S., our containerboard sales focus is almost entirely on the coated white kraftliners. This grade is difficult to substitute, which has allowed us to implement tariff-related price increases more successfully than in folding boxboard. For the full year, delivery volumes remained relatively stable, while average euro prices decreased slightly. Then moving on to the market pulp. Market pulp demand remains weak in both Europe and China, driven by soft consumer sentiment. As a result, softwood pulp prices are depressed across all major regions, with China approaching levels that are unsustainable for many producers. Both Mets� Board and Mets� Fibre have taken market-driven shutdowns, reduced production and lowered inventories. Mets� Fibre's Joutseno mill, for example, was offline from June to December. In terms of volumes, Mets� Board's pulp and BCTMP deliveries declined by 8% year-on-year, while Mets� Fibre's deliveries increased by 16%, mainly reflecting the recovery from the Kemi incident in '24. Despite this, both companies continue to operate clearly below capacity. And with that, I'll hand over to our new CFO, Anssi Tammilehto. And before he takes you through the financials, I want to once more welcome Anssi to Mets� Board. His expertise will support us well as we continue our transformation and prepare to renew our strategy. Anssi brings also strong and versatile experience from senior financial leadership roles at Neste. Go ahead, Anssi. The floor is yours.

Thank you, Esa, and good afternoon, everyone. Super excited to join the company and to support the transformation in the situation the company is in at the moment. And as mentioned, we are already seeing some promising early results from the transformation program. But on we go to the results in a bit more granular way. First of all, let's take a look at the sales and profitability quarter-by-quarter. Our sales decreased in the fourth quarter and reached EUR 394 million and the full-year sales then totaled at approximately EUR 1.78 billion. If we then look at the profitability, of course, the situation remains highly unsatisfactory. We posted negative EUR 35 million in the fourth quarter and the full-year totaled minus EUR 80 million. So as mentioned, the actions are underway to improve the situation. It is also good to note that we don't -- we had some significant topics included in the results in '25 impacting the comparability. So, EUR 27 million impairment at the Tako mill and also EUR 21 million related to the transformation program and also a EUR 35 million impairment related to the ERP renewal project. And then let's take a look at the bridges, both from quarter-to-quarter -- or sorry, quarter compared to year-over-year and then the full-year results. There were positive items in the fourth quarter, such as the foreign exchange rates, including hedges. Also, lower fixed costs supported the result, mainly driven by the Tako mill closure in June '25. But the negatives far outweigh the positives. And just to note, the most important ones, lower market pulp prices, weaker results from Mets� Fibre, lower paperboard volumes. And then we also had market-related production shutdowns, sold less unused emission rights and also the energy costs weighed into the negative territory. Then if we look at the full-year results and the EUR 150 million -- approximately EUR 150 million decline. The picture remains largely as it is in the fourth quarter, but also the higher wood and logistics costs, in particular, weighed on the full-year results. It's also good to note that if we look at the core businesses, the consumerboard and cartonboard, these impacts contribute to approximately 1/5 of that decrease of EUR 149 million. And that underlines the strength and resilience of our core businesses. Then let's switch gears to cash flow. Very happy to see a strong cash flow in the second half and in the fourth quarter. And a big thanks goes to the whole team who was able to generate this. So, our cash flow, both from operations point of view and after investing was positive both in the third and fourth quarter. And as you can see, our target was actually to release EUR 150 million of cash, and we exceeded that by releasing more than EUR 300 million of working capital in the second half of the year, which clearly exceeds the target. And just to note the Q4 impact in the right-hand graph, you can see that the net working capital release is the largest contributor to the free cash flow. And if we look at the balance sheet and the related metrics, it's good to note that the interest-bearing debt was EUR 565 million, but net debt stood at EUR 255 million. And of course, the cash flow plays into our favor in this one. The liquidity in total is EUR 560 million, consisting of the liquid assets and investments worth EUR 310 million and also unused revolving credit facilities worth EUR 250 million. The company is also investment-grade rated by both Moody's and S&P. Also good to note that the elevated leverage is not, of course, something we are happy with, quite the opposite, but it's largely driven by weak profitability. We have a solid financial position, and we are putting a lot of effort in maintaining it like that. With that, I'll hand it back to Esa, please.

Thank you, Anssi. Well done.

Thank you.

So before we move on to the outlook, let's take a look at our investments. Our major investment projects are now behind us, as we noted earlier as well. We are shifting from a period of heavy capital expenditure into a phase more focused on profitability and fully utilizing the capacity we have been building in the last years, fully aligned with our commercial strategy as well. During the year, the total investments amounted to still EUR 140 million, with depreciation at EUR 107 million. We now completed the roughly EUR 60 million modernization of the Simpele paperboard machine. It is an important step in boosting product performance and moving the mill closer to be a fossil-free in itself. Looking ahead, the downward trend in investments will continue this year. For '26 to '28, we expect annual maintenance CapEx to remain at EUR 40 million to EUR 50 million, with no major new projects planned now. Smaller mill-specific investments remain possible, particularly those that support our 2030 fossil-free targets and are with short payback times. Finally, the Mets� Group-wide ERP project, which also cover Mets� Board has been suspended, as Anssi was mentioning also for the time being and a EUR 35 million impairment related to the project was recognized in the Q4 operating result. Then let's turn to the outlook, starting with the operating environment for the next 3 to 6 months. In paperboard, soft consumer sentiment and U.S. tariffs continue to weaken sales visibility. In Europe, overcapacity keeps adding pressure to the market. And in China, on the market pulp side, in China, demand for pulp remains low, while in Europe, high raw material costs and FX pressures are likely to restrict the production going forward. And then lower wood cost in Finland and Sweden are expected to support the profitability '26 onwards, while FX will be clearly more negative than in '25. We expect the negative FX impact in Q1 versus Q4 to be roughly EUR 20 million. Turning then to Mets� Board specific factors for the first quarter. We'll continue to steer operation with a strong focus on cash flow. Market-driven production curtailments are likely to continue, particularly in Husum and strict capital discipline remains in place. But then we have to be -- because the business activity is increasing in Q1, working capital will be affected by the seasonality and lower accounts payable as well. Paperboard delivery volumes are expected to improve from the very low levels of Q4 and variable costs are declining, driven by lower wood prices and our transformation actions and reduced personnel and ICT expenses will support lower fixed costs as well. And finally, there is no planned maintenance in the first quarter. Now having reviewed last year's performance, let's shift to the transformation actions that will put us back on a stronger path. Let me start with the Husum integrated site, which is central here. As a single integrated unit, it accounted for the largest share of last year's losses. The mill has faced weak pulp markets, lower folding boxboard demand due to the U.S. tariffs and significant FX exposure as well. At the same time, Husum offers for us the strongest long-term growth potential in our portfolio. Our transformation includes cost savings and efficiency measures that focus particularly on Husum going forward and new sheeting capacity that was -- actually the deal was closed today in the Netherlands, will help us to better leverage integrate's strengths in Europe. Taken together, our current assets provide a solid foundation for future growth, with our Finnish mills serving key segments efficiently, while Husum continues to offer the strongest long-term upside. And then how have we progressed in our transformation in terms of euros? So far, our main actions have focused on improving cost efficiency in Husum. In addition, we have launched a new focused commercial strategy, of which the profit impact will become more visible over time. In Q4, we completed the change negotiations, which together with Mets� Group's shared service are expected to deliver annual cost savings of around EUR 30 million. Additional actions include pulp mix optimization, reduced use of selected raw materials and renewed procurement contracts, among others. Overall, the EBITDA impact of the implemented actions was about EUR 52 million at the year-end, with effects gradually materializing in '26. Looking ahead, lower wood prices and the expansion of our sheeting capacity in Europe will further support the transformation. And then before wrapping up, let me briefly summarize the transformation program as it was presented earlier. The program has 2 phases: first, building a leaner and more competitive cost base; and second, enabling profitable growth through stronger margins, reduced complexity and improved commercial execution. With these actions, we'll restore profitability to the required level and secure sustainable growth for the future. As we have seen, the transformation is progressing with the first tangible results already visible. And while there is still significant work ahead, we will continue to execute with discipline to deliver the full impact of the program. And then to summarize, our results ended in the red, mainly due to the market headwinds, with Husum most affected given its exposure to the pulp market and U.S. tariffs. At the same time, our transformation actions are showing encouraging early progress. Our solid financial position and strong cash flow provide the stability we need in uncertain market conditions. And then looking ahead, we'll continue steering the business with a clear focus on customer centricity. As we look forward, we will build on our strong asset base and continue developing all our mills for long-term competitiveness. In Husum, we acknowledge the need for significant improvement. But equally, it offers our strongest long-term growth potential as was presented today. Our strategy update is progressing also well, and we plan to share the revised strategy with you in the first quarter of '26. That concludes our presentation part. And we are now ready to take your questions. Operator, please go ahead and open the lines.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from Linus Larsson from SEB.

I'll start off with consumerboard, folding boxboard. You're guiding for somewhat higher -- or you're guiding for higher volumes in the first compared to the fourth quarter. I just wonder where you are sensing that we are in this whole new rearrangement of the markets with tariffs now fully in place, et cetera? I can see that your folding boxboard volumes to Americas almost halved year-on-year in the fourth quarter. Do you expect some of that fall to reverse in the first quarter? Is that part of your guidance? Yes, maybe let's start off with that, please.

Yes. Thank you, Linus. I think that I will be starting with the second question, actually. If you're looking at the whole year, we had in '24, 180,000 tonnes of FBB and the tariffs kicked in, I think it was 9th of April and then stabilized in August. And the total decline of the volumes was in the whole year, 35,000 tonnes, and it was predominantly in the foodservice segment, which we have not been, actually earlier as well, not that competitive. So in that sense, we do believe that there are growing actually accounts in U.S. as well, and we see that clearly as well that we can bounce back partly in there. And then I was referring to the annual contracts also in our FBB business. And in that sense, I'm really confident that the customers have been earlier rather disciplined with the volumes as well that they have been actually contracting with us. So, I don't have any doubts that they will be bouncing back with those volumes as well with our key accounts. And then at the same time, we are, of course, seeking new opportunities all the time. And we see that there are some smaller competitors in European markets that are suffering mostly on this situation not being competitive, and we are taking market share, I'm pretty convinced.

And how much of a volume bounce back are you expecting in the first or, say, the second quarter? I mean, within the immediately for the foreseeable future, if you look at shipment to capacity in the fourth quarter, it was down below 60%. It's an unsustainably low level, I would say. And is that also part of this renewed strategy that you are looking at, I mean, potential adjustments to your capacity? Or do you see that you can see a strong enough volume recovery within the foreseeable future?

Well, that's -- if I would have that crystal ball, I would be very happy. But Linus, unfortunately, I have to kind of cause you a, let's say, a bit of a negative answer in that sense that we believe that we can bounce back, but not, of course, we will not see full capacity utilization in the longer term. That's why I think that we have to be very cautious and sensitive and curtail the production where we must do that. So, we'll not see that the capacity utilization rates will be in full swing in anytime soon. So the market remains, let's say, subdued, as I said, on the overcapacity that we have seen and also, let's say, this market sentiment as well, driven by the consumer confidence.

And could you please maybe put this acquisition of the Dutch sheeting facility into this perspective and explain how that's going to play in and on what sort of magnitude that you expect to boost your own shipments?

Yes. Well, that's kind of a tactical move in that sense that we have said that we are too much -- currently in current situation, we are too much exposed on the U.S. market with our FBB and especially Husum, which is targeted to that market. And our commercial strategy says that we want to bounce back in the U.S., but at the same time, we seek new opportunities with our competitive -- most competitive mill of Husum in our main markets in Europe. And that is exactly what we are doing with this Winschoten acquisition. We will be -- by doing the acquisition, we are actually leveraging our capabilities in Europe. We will become more relevant to our customers. We are more agile and closer to the customers, serving them better in the future. So, that's balancing Husum's instability currently well. And the capacity of Winschoten Sheeting and Distribution Hub is around 100,000 tonnes. So it balances this rather well.

The next question comes from Robin Santavirta from DNB Carnegie.

You have very strong cash flow again in this quarter, so well done on that. My question is a quite basic one, but an important one. I mean, when I look at your EBITDA or adjusted EBITDA in both Q3 and Q4, you are in negative territory. And I assume you have some better mills than others. So essentially, it means that some of your paperboard mills are generating a negative adjusted EBITDA. Why are you continuing to producing with negative EBITDA? Is that not the rule of thumb to stop production immediately when EBITDA is negative in order to tighten up the market? What is the reason for that?

Well, there are -- of course, in a negative EBITDA, we are EUR 9 million negative EBITDA last quarter. And I think that if you look at the overall balance and capacity that we have, so that is also always a game when we are looking ahead when we do the deals. We can keep, of course, this kind of big capacity that we have. So, sometimes in these times when we are having a difficult market condition, supply-demand balance like this, and it is having an impact on the ForEx and also the pulp market and then FBB having issues in U.S, that's a pretty complex situation with the integrating Husum. And seeing that we have been guiding that the biggest losses that we have made last year were derived from the Husum. So, you can actually see that, that has been the biggest struggle that we have had and the biggest accumulated losses as well. So at some point of time, we have reached also negative EBITDA in that site.

I understand. So the idea is it's a temporary issue in a way, and that's the reason. But then also going back maybe to Linus' question on capacity utilization quite low, and you said it yourself, the markets are challenging and it seems that this capacity you have, you're not going to reach close to full utilization anytime soon. Wouldn't the smartest thing then to be to sort of -- to close the weakest mills in a way and then make sure that the strongest mills have a very strong capacity utilization? Or is this also sort of your view that the market will recover in foreseeable future and then you can fill up the weaker mills capacity as well?

Robin, thanks. But I think that is a very topical question in that sense that, of course, everybody is always asking this question regarding the capacity closures. But I have been responding to this already earlier that our mills actually -- if you're looking at the mills that -- the capabilities that our Finnish mills have, actually, they are very well directed to those customers and segments that we are actually seeking also focused growth going forward. And they are in a really good situation while we are looking at their capability to serve their customer segments. And then we have this Husum mill, which is having multiple issues on the ForEx and pulp and then FBB. And that is the biggest opportunity. So obviously, we will not even consider actually closing down this kind of a mill, which is actually providing us a best opportunity. And thus, we will be in the market in the longer term to see and fulfill the capacity, which is really competitive and actually carries excellent quality as well and a lot of expertise in this company.

I do understand that, yes. Final question I have is, would it make sense for you or others in Europe or in the Nordics to consolidate? How do you see that sort of as an opportunity for you or the market you work in?

I'm sure that the owners will be considering all things to actually sort this capacity issues and supply-demand balance for sure. And we are not, of course, excluding also these kind of issues that if they arise at some point of time. So, we will consider also options.

The next question comes from Joni Sandvall from Nordea.

A couple of questions from my side. Starting with the cash flows, these were strong in H2. To put it in this way, how much of this is structural actions and how much relates to temporary supply chain arrangements that you have made?

Maybe Anssi?

Yes. Thanks for the question. It is, I think, both related to the wood purchases and the trade payables, basically the payment agreements related to those, but also it's related to us being able to just lower the inventories and us being able to lower the inventories is both linked to seasonality and also how we run the mills, but also related to our targets, what is the, in a way, minimum we can operate in. And it's a combination of these factors. But I don't have any numbers on those specific items that how much were we be able to, for example, free up cash from the wood purchases, but those are the main elements. Would you like to elaborate or...

I think it's a pretty good answer. Thanks, Anssi.

Okay. Okay. That's clear. Second question on -- I think we have spoken about the Husum, but how about -- how do you see the Finnish platform currently after the Tako closure? How is it performing? Is it in line with your expectations? Or do you have still some adjustments to make?

Well, again, I think that I'm referring to the earlier answer that I had. I think that our mills in Finland are in an excellent shape. We have a good expertise. The products are in a quality-wise in a top notch and the environmental performance is good, and the offering and the value proposition is well respected and appreciated by our customers as well. So in that sense, I don't see any bigger headaches in the Finnish mills. Of course, the capacity utilization could be higher also there, but that's not in a catastrophe level at all.

Okay. Okay. That's clear. And maybe final question from my side, obviously, a topical one now with the lower pulp wood costs. Could you give any indication how sequentially we should be expecting this to impact you in, first of all, in Q1 and then entering Q2?

Yes, there is, of course, always a lag in timing in that sense that it comes a little bit later when the statistical kind of evidence is appearing on the wood market. And that's up to 4 to 6 months after which it's also visible in our cost base changes in the wood market, if that's answering to your question.

Yes. So there is no change to, let's say, normal lagging effect on this as you have had, maybe lower sourcing of wood at the end of the year?

Yes. Of course, we are procuring the wood according to the needs as well, and that is part of the operating net working capital discipline that we will be actually having going forward as well. If the activity is lower, then we are procuring less wood, of course.

There are no more questions at this time. So, I hand the conference back to the speakers.

Okay. So if no more questions on the line, let's move on to the chat then. And Esa already went through the outlook for Q1, but if we could once more repeat the elements that are impacting the Q1 results. So maybe Anssi, you can take this one. So the main elements.

Thanks, Katri, and thank you for the question. First of all, the FBB volumes are expected to increase and the containerboard then, on the other hand, remaining quite stable. We are, of course, with the transformation program seeking for benefits in variable costs and fixed costs. So that is, of course, something we are pretty much seeking after. We also mentioned in the financial statements release in the outlook section that the FX rate will have approximately a EUR 20 million impact compared to Q4. So this is, of course, due to that. And it's, of course, a big item in that sense. Other items also impacting the Q1 profitability compared to Q4 is, for example, that in Q4, we had insurance compensation from the Kemi event. So, that is something that we don't then expect for Q1 anymore. So, those are maybe the main pieces of the puzzle.

Very good. And then there's a follow-up, again, relating to this working capital release. So, you already went through what were the elements on the 2025. So the inventory management and then the financing arrangements of wood purchases. But what about going on to the '26 is -- can we expect something similar in '26 than in '25?

Yes. Thanks once again for the good question. And as I was mentioning, it would be good to have a crystal ball, but unfortunately, we don't. But of course, we make thorough planning on these premises. And I think it's safe to say that the big ticket items were made in second half of '25. We continue to push and to squeeze cash out from the working capital and from the supply chain. But the big items were, in a way, in H2 in '25.

Yes. And then to the market-related downtime in paperboard operations as well as Mets� Fibre's pulp and especially in Q1, what can we say about that?

Well, we see that there is still need for curtailments in FBB side. Also some WKL related as well on a market basis. And then pulp, of course, having still high wood raw material cost and U.S. dollar headwind. And then the pulp market is not, let's say, very hot currently. So based on those, some curtailments might be seen as well.

Fair enough. And then the question related to FX impact for the full year of 2026.

Yes. Well, we have a rolling hedging approach like what is typical in an industry like this. And we have now given guidance on the Q1 impact, but the rest of the year will remain to be seen then later on.

Yes. And also the sensitivities what we are disclosing.

Yes. Good point.

Then the emission rights and the sold emission rights for full-year '25, what was the impact? And what can we expect on '26?

Yes. Well, it has been in decline in the past 3 years. I think that it was EUR 35 million roughly sold emission rights, EUR 25 million. And then this year, we are expecting kind of emission rights sales approximately EUR 20 million, something like that.

Yes.

Okay. Then price pressure in folding boxboard. Are we seeing any -- we see index price down. And how do you expect the increased competition to impact folding boxboard price going forward?

Well, as I said in the presentation as well, I think that we are happy with the added value, let's say, progress in the annual contracts as well and volume commitments that we have received from the customer. So, we go customer by customer, and there is no clear single price point in FBB because we have such a kind of a vast variety of different value that we are providing to the customers. So, we are pricing customer by customer and create also value customer by customer. So, I don't see that our price is not in that pressure that the market indicates.

Good answer. And then about the U.S. tariff. Do you anticipate any tariff impacts on your business?

Well, of course, we will see that coming also into our books from '25. We paid some EUR 20 million tariffs, and this was based on the volumes that we had in the -- since April 9 when they were actually set. So from that point onwards, we have been paying EUR 20 million. And this year, it will be depending on the volumes that we are delivering and the value.

And I got the information that there would be one follow-up question on the line. Do we have that? We could take that still.

The next question comes from Robin Santavirta from DNB Carnegie.

This is maybe for Anssi. Perhaps a bit of a tricky question. But now I can see that you have produced less paperboard than you have delivered and that has generated excellent cash flow. Probably the right thing to do in this kind of environment. But oftentimes, that then creates negative cost absorption and a negative impact on the reported earnings. Is there any way you could sort of give a magnitude of these actions impact on reported EBIT or EBITDA?

You mean for -- yes, thanks, Robin. I think it's a good question. Unfortunately, I don't have a specific answer to that one. I think the way how we described the Q4 result was there. But I think it's a good point, and we will have to, of course, look into that unless you have something to elaborate on that one. But I think we have to just stick with that one.

Yes. I understand. It's a tricky sort of thing to calculate sometimes. But if you can maybe for future because sometimes you see when companies produce -- stop in a way producing and deliver, they get quite a hit on the reported earnings. Obviously, cash flow is then strong. And then vice versa when it's the opposite, but perhaps we can come back to that.

Yes. I would refer -- thanks, Robin. I think I would refer to the fact that we are steering on cash flow basis. So, we are all the time optimizing cash flow. So, I think that continues. So, we take that into account. Of course, there's a discrepancy between production and sales or delivery volumes. And then, of course, in this -- when we have curtailments, for example, there might come the situations where we need to take that into account when we steer the next quarter, for example. So, this is something that I'm sure is now taken into account. But I think it's a good question, and we'll have to come back to the actual quantification if we wish. But thanks.

There are no more questions at this time. So, I hand the conference back to the speakers.

Okay. It appears that we have no further questions either on the line or through the chat. With that, we will bring today's presentation to a close. If you have any additional questions come up later, please feel free to reach out our Investor Relations. We are always happy to continue the discussions. Before we finish, let me once more remind you that we will publish our updated strategy during the first quarter. And our next results, Q1 results will be announced on April 29. Thank you all for joining us today, and I wish you a productive rest of the week.