Momentum Group Limited (MTM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the presentation of the annual financial results of Momentum Metropolitan Holdings for the period ended 30 June this year. My name is Dan Moyane. Just a short while ago before we started, I was outside this room. And Hillie Meyer told me that among us today, we've got the big 5. Actually, it just Hillie Meyer's wife who said, they's got the big 5. Hillie is here with 4 of his brothers. Let's welcome them with a round of applause and Mrs. Meyer is here as well on this day. I guess the reason will become clear to those who may not know why I'm mentioning this a little bit later on. We are coming to you live from the company's offices here in Sandton Johannesburg welcoming everyone who's joining us today, the analysts, the investors, the shareholders, journalists and of course, the employees of the company who are watching us live either on mPOS, which is our company's Intranet or on BD TV channel 412 on DSTV or you can also follow our presentation of these results on via webcast. That's corpcam.com/mm13092023. The full results of our company also available on the website, which is momentummetropolitan.co.za. Thank you very much to the Momentum Metropolitan Group Investor Relations team for putting together this presentation and our thanks also goes to the group marketing's PR and events team for their beautiful execution. It's really a wonderful year, and you can see that for yourselves. Now as you'll hear shortly, this is a very strong set of results that's going to be presented, which we can all be proud of. They reflect our shared journey to success together. Indeed, they mark a historic peak at a time of significant change in the group's leadership. Our new group CEO, or is it incoming new Group CEO, the formidable Jeanette Marais; and the Group Finance Director, Risto Ketola, will unpack fully how the Group's businesses have performed in the past financial year. But before all of that, let's warmly welcome to the podium. The outgoing CEO, the great man himself, Hillie Meyer, who has been at the helm since 2018 and is now about to embark on a well deserved retirement after leading a very successful turnaround for the group. When I was dressing up for this occasion today, I thought I was overdressed. Wait until you see Hillie. Give him a big round of applause.

Thank you, Dan. Thank you, everybody else. I really appreciate the warm welcome, and I'm sure it's not because you're glad to see me go. As you heard Jeanette and Risto will present the results. I'm here, I think, merely to sort of publicly, I suppose, hand over the baton. But I will use the opportunity to do a number of thank yous. Firstly, I would like to thank the Momentum Metropolitan Board and our key shareholders for the opportunity to lead this wonderful group. Thank you for your support and guidance over the last 5.5 years. It's really been valued, and I really appreciate that. I would also like to take the opportunity to thank our regulators and also industry bodies like our CISA and business leadership of South Africa. Thank you for constructive engagement and for support over the last few years. Also a big thank you to our clients and our partners, in particular, independent financial advisers. I know we make the point often, but we don't take your business for granted. We're very happy to work very, very hard for it. Dan mentioned my family members that gatecrashed the meeting, I suppose we've got to thank them for being here. Otherwise, I'll be in trouble when I get home tonight. But a very, very special thank you to the Momentum Metropolitan people. We've got a wonderful culture. We've got wonderful people, people that respond positively to challenges, people that, I think, are happy to communicate openly, happy to embrace change. It's really been an honor and a privilege to lead them. And I think just that positive attitude made it easy to lead this group. So, to all the Momentum Metropolitan staff, there will be an opportunity this week in Cape Town next week in Centurion to sort of more personally thank you all, and I really look forward to that. But in the meantime, thank you very, very much for your really wonderful support the last number of years. My final thank you to the Momentum Metropolitan ExCo. I leave with [ Appiab ] because I know the group is in good hands. Now Jeanette is going to speak shortly. Jeanette's been a key member of the executive team for the last 5.5 years. Jeanette deeply cares about this business. She understands the culture. Jeanette's ambitious. I think she's got -- she really wants to take the business to new heights. So to Jeanette, Risto and the rest of the leadership team I look forward to you taking Momentum Metropolitan from strength to strength. Thank you.

Thank you, Hillie, for your very kind words. And I promised I won't cry today. Maybe at the end when I thank you but definitely not when we start. And also from me, Dan has already done so, but let me also use the opportunity to say a very warm welcome to all our shareholders, analysts, the media, we call them friends as well our financial advisers to all of the Momentum Metropolitan employees I know that for the next hour, you're going to also focus on the results that you played such a big part in delivering for us. And then lastly, our family and friends from everywhere that's also watching us today. So yes, this is my first time in front of you. But I think what a privilege to be able to stand here and to be sharing such a strong set of results for the Momentum Metropolitan Group with you today. It often is easier to start your tenure at the bottom. So Hillie, you had that benefit. I don't. I think we start from an incredible high level but again, like you said, with absolute belief that the team that we have, the people that we have will help us to only go from strength to strength. So today, my presentation is quite short. I want to start off by sharing with you some key takeouts from the results. And then secondly, I will just give you an update on the reinvent and grow strategy and share with you some of the interesting developments that we've had in that space. So let's start with the best news of the day. Our earnings over the last 6 years, and I think you can see the 6 years there. clearly show the success of our reinvent and grow, our turnaround strategy that we started in 2018. You can see that F '19 was already a significant improvement in earnings, but then, of course, we were rudely interrupted by COVID and the next 2 years were quite tough. But we got through COVID successfully, not many businesses can say that. And what was great about it was that there was still a positive trend in underlying earnings even during the COVID years. But the real growth curve, of course, has returned last year. And a little that we know that the results for this year was going to be even better. So the F '23 earnings are exceptional. And it is higher than our earnings target for F 2024. But I must mention that there were tailwinds that has helped us in the F '23 normalized headline earnings. And we do not expect those to repeat. But then every year, we say this. Every year, we get some tailwind. So let's hope that next year, we'll also look after itself. Our operating profit was largely driven by changes in our mortality experience in our Life businesses, and then, of course, an increase in the investment variances. But if you look at the graph, I think you will support that we believe that our business has rebased to a higher level of performance. And we believe that also the next slides will help to illustrate more of that. So then let's look at our present value of new business premiums. Now although our new sales, which we present by this number has actually gone down by 5% to ZAR 69 billion. We still think that it is a very credible performance. And especially if you look that is given, that is 38% higher since when we started with this turnaround process in F 2018. Sales in our retail operations contracted by 3% from the previous year. But I think we do need to mention that especially single premium flows showed an upward trend during the second half of the year, and it increased by 15% in the last quarter of the year on a year-on-year basis. Now when we look at this, we have to mention the South African environment. And I think that we will all acknowledge that the South African operating environment continues to present challenges and a lot of uncertainties that put our clients under financial pressure. And we think that this is only going to get tougher going forward. So it makes it difficult for our clients to save and to maintain their levels of savings and insurance. But as a consequence, I think what we would be watching very, very closely, is firstly, our client acquisition, our new business sales and then, of course, our retention numbers. Those would very quickly show you what the trend is and where you're going with that. Then our value of new business and that was I think we can kindly say that it was more of a sideways move than a massive drop, but it has declined by 4% to ZAR 600 million. And this was, of course, largely driven by lower new business sales higher long-term interest rates, and we know how that worked in VNB because it's part of the calculation. And then mostly, a move in or a change in the general business mix. For many of the businesses, it's moved to lower-margin products across many of the business units. On the retail side, the protection business pulled the VNB down quite a bit. But while again, and this is why we have a portfolio of businesses, Momentum Investments had a record year for guaranteed annuities, and that balanced out our VNB more or less. It is also interesting to note that Momentum Investments is now the single biggest contributor to our value of new business at 78% of the group's VNB. Again, I think considering the numbers relative to 6 years ago, the VNB has increased 74% since 2018. And I think that is another rebase that happened, especially over the last 3 years. Then when we go to our corporate portfolio. And I think this remains one of the strengths of our business that we're very proud of. And I think what it really just illustrate to you and their significance to the colors is the benefits of having a diversified business portfolio. A model of empowered accountable business units has again demonstrated its resilience, and it has assisted the group to cope with the challenges that South Africa has thrown at us over the last year. So in green, you can see the 5 businesses that performed really well and that all made very strong contribution to our earnings growth. Risto will unpack the numbers in quite a bit more detail. Momentum Investments is in orange. And I think simply because our earnings move sideways, but again, on the back of some 2 very, very good record years of earnings in the last 2 years. And then there are 2 businesses in red that experienced some challenges. We're confident that the plans we have in place and that the steps that we've taken will really get both Momentum Insure and the Metropolitan Life back on track. But I do think it is worth spending a minute on these 2 businesses to share with you the plans that we have to get them back on track and let's start with Momentum Insure. So the last phase of the AFI integration was really complex, and it took longer than planned to execute on that integration. Now that really caused some capacity constraints with our key staff. And you sometimes underestimate these things. But I think what made it a lot worse was that this happened at the same time that we faced severe claims and some service challenges. And that was on the back of the real spike in weather-related claims that we experienced at that point in time. You can almost refer to it as the perfect storm, not just referring to the weather, but it all happened at the same time. But I think if you look at the slide, you can also see that since the completion of the AFI integration, our business is now at scale, our capacity issues have been resolved and we've already taken some very strong management action to get the claims ratio back to the targeted range where we want to have it. So the first step we took was some premium increases, the second one is that we canceled some policies where we found that the claims ratios were outside of our risk tolerance. And then we made some benefit changes and I think in this case, everyone will be familiar, but specifically around power surge claims and then we increased the excesses where we needed to do so and where that was applicable. Now when I engage with Brandt and his team, I think that I can say that with these action steps in place, I'm quite confident that we will reduce our claims ratio back from the 77%, which is much higher than it's been in a long time and that we would get it back to the mid-60s and that, that will put our earnings back on track, VNB Metropolitan. Now the main challenge in Metropolitan, that has both impacted the normalized headline earnings and the VNB negatively was high lapses. And that really was due to 2 things. Firstly, some operational challenges that we've had in the business that have actually added to the problem of the lapse rates but being also driven by tough economic circumstances. And we find that in this market, when the economy is tough, it has a strong impact on the lower income groups. And this really caused clients to struggle to keep up the premiums. Again, our Metropolitan team has got, what we call a 5-point plan, not going to go through the whole plan. But what I will share with you 3 things that I think is going to make quite a big difference to, again, within the next years already going to start to make quite a big difference. The first one is more dynamic pricing, better benefit design, and that really is around improving the commercial side of the business. Then secondly, rigorous management of the quality of new business. And then lastly, we also have some cost saving initiatives that we believe will be quite necessary especially in order to bring the VNB back up. So by doing that, Metropolitan foresee and Peter has made this promise. Over the next 2 years, our earnings will increase back to the ZAR 600 million level and our VNB margin will get back to 5%. And you can clearly see what difference that will make. So now I will just share with you a little bit of an update on our reinvent and growth strategy. Now this slide is what Hillie called our signature slide, and I'm sure all of you are quite familiar with all of the information on this slide. I don't have time to discuss all of the different objectives, but I will highlight a few of the more interesting developments that we've had. I think one of the most important ones for us is to not move away but to develop some new distribution channels for the group. Traditionally, very, very strong in the advice, the face-to-face advice market. But again, as a distribution channel, we need to start growing that. And really, in all of the businesses that has really paid off for us over the last years. Momentum Life, their direct initiatives have increased from less than 7% to no more than -- sorry, less than 1% to more than 7% of the Myriad APE over the past 2 years. What's more significant is it now 25% of our new business is actually written by direct channels, which is quite a marked improvement. Secondly, Momentum in [ Shire's ] direct channel has actually shown or increased by 15% over the last year in the gross written premium, which is now actually a total of 20% of the total business. Metropolitan Life was traditionally much stronger in the agency world, but they have also focused quite a lot on the broker and the tele channel over the last few years. And you can see now that combined, these 2 channels have grown from 15% to now 19% after Metropolitan APE over the last year. Then Guardrisk. And Guardrisk is always interesting because it's different to the rest of our businesses and Guardrisk uses channels that are quite different from the existing way in which we distribute the rest of our products. So Guardrisk General Insurance gross written premium increased by 49% over the last year. Life third-party sales on growth written premium increased by 14% and the non-life third-party of sales gross written premium increased by 26% in the past year. So you can see just phenomenal growth in these alternative channels in the Guardrisk business. And then lastly, Momentum Corporate through retailization. Our retailization has been a theme in our industry for many, many years. And not everybody gets it right. But I think [ Demoni's ] team has made enormous progress to really, really start to make a very big difference for us in retailization. And we now capture 41% of annuities, annuity outflows and 54% of preservations that comes back to the group. So this really just means that a significant number of members who exit their pension funds, their employer funds, are now reinvesting their money with some of the companies in the Momentum Metropolitan Group. So that really, really makes a very big difference. Then digitalization. Now you've known that for many years, it has been a theme for us and I thought today, what I'll try and do is show and share with you the very solid framework that we've developed over the last 3 years that help us to look at how we will accelerate digital in the group. And there are really 3 ways in which we do it. So digitizing the core speaks to improvements where we focus on business as usual. So you take a business that is already operating. And what you do is that you take that business as usual and you digitize it. Now the best example of this is Project Singular, which is our FNZ Wealth replatform project that we are busy with in Momentum Wealth. Then the second one is where you invest in digital enablers, and that really is to evolve your current processes. Now a great example of this and one that I tend to talk about a lot because I think we need to own it a lot more than we do at the moment. And that is our biometric mobile screening capability that we've developed. Now we developed that as part of the Exponential Innovation project, an initiative that we actually started as far back as 2015. And we are now using it in Myriad Life returns for digital underwriting screening. I mean, it sounds weird. But you can literally look in a phone and know your blood pressure, you can know your BMI. It's actually quite incredible. And really, what this is, is that the application of this technology in life insurance is a world first. We've not yet found anyone in the world that use it the way that we do. And that sets us up to underwrite and onboard clients without any human intervention in Myriad. And then lastly, our long-term focus is to pursue new digital growth. And this involves new business models and new platform solutions. And here again, I want to use an example that we're doing in Momentum Corporate, which is our Project Dragonfly, and this is an internal marketplace initiative, where we use lean startup principles, we create a next-generation business, and we are digitally enabling basically the B2C part of our B2B business in Momentum Corporate. So lastly, I want to make a bold statement and say that I think what we've done over the last 5, 6 years in terms of digital has really moved us back to becoming a disruptor again in state of being disrupted by our competitors. Then we believe in transforming authentically. Now I think that is quite important. You could easily just tick boxes and chase numbers. But for us, we don't just chase employment equity numbers. We celebrate our diversity. We make sure that we don't only include everyone, but that everyone also feels that they belong. And that has become such a cornerstone of our culture to make sure that, that belonging and inclusion is part of it because it's so important to us. So a steady progress shown in our numbers. And I can go through them. Top management remains stable at 36% black leaders. We grew Black senior management to 44%, middle management to 47%. Middle management is also the one that is tougher for us. It's most tough in all of these numbers. And then lastly, our employee base have remained constant at 85%. But I do want to also throw something in, maybe just because I'm here. Women play a strong role in our business. 65% of our workforce are women, and it's amazing. We think 50% of the population of women, 65% of our workforce are women, 20% of our Board, 20% of our Exco are female and being 36% of the senior managers in our group are women. But I will say Nontokozo, watch this space. And then I want to illustrate some of our growth focus areas to just maybe focus on market share because I think it is the one that is always kind of an outside in measure to show you how well you are doing in the market. And I'll start here just with Momentum Wealth. I have to hand that baby over to [ Fady ] now. But I do want to say how proud we are that over the last 3 years, we've actually managed to grow Momentum Wealth market share by 5%. For our retail businesses, we gained market share in spite of the fact that our agency force is still much smaller than those of our competitors. So we're still much stronger than the IFA market. But our agency force is not big enough to have actually given us the same boost that often our competitors get in terms of market share. Remember also that 1% market share gain here for any of the businesses is quite significant. It's not that easy to even take 1% market share away from everybody. And then this indicate good progress. I think across all the businesses, you can see that we've either maintained our market share or we've grown it. Sometimes, we get the question about Momentum Insure being so small, Brandt you're here, we're watching you. But also knowing that, that number already includes the AFI merger. And right before that, it actually was even less than that, it was half that. But Hillie and I decided that just because you yelled, I'll do a slide, especially for you. Many of you will remember that Hillie made a comment at his first results presentation in 2018 when he actually said that winning back independent financial support and market share will prove that we have fixed our businesses. And I quote them there, and we wanted to put this up for you today because the business is mostly supported by independent financial advisers or Myriad and Momentum Wealth. And here, you can see that over the last myriad from F '19 to F '20 have gained just more than 2% market share over this period of time and Momentum Wealth has actually gained just over 1.5%. And that only over the last 2 years and only because actually, we had a change of statistics providers, so we couldn't really show you numbers for longer ago. But we know that the growth in market share over the 5 years was actually even more significant than that. So Hillie, I think you can leave with a good heart. We've all done all of that especially for you. So just before I hand over to Risto, I thought I'll just share with you a few thoughts in conclusion. And I think from me, looking back over the past financial year, we really have made solid progress on our reinvent and grow targets. However, as we've said, it's not just about increasing profit. And I think that's one thing that is very close to my heart. We could be a business that just chase profits, but I think we are a lot more. There's a lot more to us than that. And at the heart of that for me is that we're also a player in South Africa, and I think there's the opportunity for us to add significant value to a wide range of stakeholders. And I want to use the opportunity to share some of those numbers with you because I think they are really something we could be so proud of. So we're here because of our clients. And in addition to our shareholders, we also added value to our clients by paying out more than ZAR 38 billion in claims over the last year. We paid ZAR 7 billion in remuneration, and we invested in our people by spending more than ZAR 280 million on their development -- training and development. We built communities by giving ZAR 43.5 million through our CSI initiatives, we transformed South African businesses by channeling ZAR 10 million towards enterprise development initiatives and ZAR 4 billion towards BBBE preferential procurement. And then lastly, we invested ZAR 4.1 billion in renewable industry -- sorry, renewable energy in South Africa over the last year. Some amazing numbers to show that we are a citizen of South Africa, and we're actually making a far bigger contribution than just making profits. We acknowledge that we've benefited from tailwinds during the past year, and we know that this will not necessarily repeat in F '20 -- sorry, pressed the button, repeat in F '24. However, we believe that the underlying run rate of our earnings at approximately ZAR 4 billion is really solid, and it's a solid reflection of our true performance. We've made very good progress on delivering on our 3-year reinvent and grow objectives, as I've shown you now and in the last year of our 3-year plan, we committed as we can be to deliver normalized headline earnings of between ZAR 4.6 billion and ZAR 5 billion in F 2024. We have also already started with a planning process for F 2027 plan beyond reinvent and grow. And a year from now, we would have shared our new plans with all of you in the market. And then lastly, to all our employees, I really look forward to working with you to take this business to its next height. And then on a personal level. Hillie, thank you. Hillie has been -- I knew I wasn't going to do this in front of so many people, but it's from my heart. I've got so much to thank you for, not just the generosity with which you did the handover and you shared time with me, but I think more than anything that you leave this business in such an amazing place. So I know I've got big shoes to fill. Luckily, I'm wearing different shoes. So I think that will help. And then I just want to say, on behalf of the entire Momentum Metropolitan Group and every single one of our employees, thank you for the amazing leader you've been to our business. Thank you.

Thanks, Jeanette. Always a pleasure to come and share financial results with you guys. I have a pretty set format here which is starting with the key financial indicators. It's a bit of a lag yes. Okay. Now earnings of ZAR 5.1 billion for the year are exceptionally strong, as Jeanette mentioned, I had 2 people remind me this morning that a year ago when Hillie propped up here wearing a tie for the first time in 4 years. I said I'll wear a tie when our earnings are ZAR 5 billion or more. Now I'll just clarify when our underlying earnings are ZAR 5 billion or more I'll wear a tie. So I view these numbers is more like ZAR 4 billion, ZAR 4.2 billion again. Yes. But okay, in terms of earnings per share, those are up 19%, so 3% more than the absolute earnings. Obviously, through the buybacks, our weighted average shares in issue are decreasing all the time. Obviously, we have continued to buy back shares late last year. We're going to do more buybacks now. So I think that number of shares will continue to decline for the next year or 2, which obviously be a boost to all the EPS numbers. In line with the earnings per share growth, the dividend is up 20% year-on-year. So I think that's a strong dividend. And our return on equity continues to be in the low 20s, 22%, which is actually quite strong compared to the overall sector, I think. When I talk about IFRS 17, I'll mention that the ROE will probably decline a little bit, but I think our ROE will remain quite attractive compared to the peer group. Next sort of key financial indicators. So embedded value. I've been calling it steady growth for the last few years. I think this year, the growth is a bit more than steady. So embedded value is up 13% for the year. If you add in the dividends we paid during the year, the actual return on embedded value was 17%, which is the strongest we had in a number of years, a very pleasing number. Jeanette mentioned that sales volumes are down 5%, Value of new business down 4%. There's quite a bit of operational gearing normally in the VNB number because that ZAR 600 million is really a difference of a couple of billion of revenues and a couple of billion of expenses. What protected us this year against operational gearing on the downside is the expanding margin on annuities. So annuities were a big boost to our VNB numbers for the year. I have another slide on it later in the presentation. New business margin flat at 0.9% overall. As per usual, instead of going slide per business, I'll just quickly run through some of the key business units. So Momentum Life, it is normally our biggest business, and it's returned to that position in terms of earnings. You'll see there that 2 years ago in height of COVID we actually incurred quite big losses on this business. which is expected. I mean, we've got like ZAR 1 trillion of some share there. Good recovery last year and further recovery this year. So earnings are up to ZAR 2 billion. The ZAR 1 billion jumped from last year. I would say that you could split it into 2 components. About ZAR 500 million is additional mortality profits. So last year, the first quarter still had the third wave. So we had 1 quarter of bad mortality this year. This year, we didn't have that 1 quarter again. Also, the remaining COVID provisions we had, we have not released them. We believe COVID is not endemic, and it's built into our normal mortality assumptions going forward. The other ZAR 500 million relates to really the yield curve movements. This business has significant liabilities like 30, 40, 50 years out. So obviously, with 1 deals rising, the PV of those liabilities have fallen quite significantly and is a source of profit. Momentum Investments, earnings are down, but at a very high absolute level. Remember that this business houses our annuity book. So during COVID, we actually were benefiting from high death in terms of the annuity profits, and that is now starting to normalize a little bit. So the declining earnings here really reflects normalization of annuity mortality to some degree. Metropolitan Life, Jeanette spoke about the VNB issues there. Earnings are no less interesting. That ZAR 400 million well, close to ZAR 400 million decline. There's a lot of things going there, but I'll talk to myself that maybe the easiest way to explain it is 2 components. First one is quality issues. Secondly is basis changes at year-end. Around the quality, we continue to see negative lap experience. In other words, less people are paying premiums every month than we expect. And I do think it's a bit of a macro and a sector thing. So if you look at the other insurance company results, you would have seen similar lapse losses in this low end of the market. And it got a little bit worse year-on-year. The more company specific, the more metropolitan specific quality issues and the new business activities. So in the last year, we had a lot of what we call like NTUs those are not taken ups. It's where we go through the process of selling all these insurance policies, underwriting, communications, paying advisers and then we never collect a single premium. So the product policy actually gets canceled 3 months later, 4 months later, there's a significant wasted cost of all that activity. What makes it worse if the adviser leaves in that time period because you don't get the commission back. So the high churn, high turnover in our agency force compounded the financial impacts of the poor quality in the sales channel. Yes. So quality issues maybe ZAR 200 million after the year-on-year movement. The other ZAR 200 million related to the basis changes at year-end. Now because of, again, linked a bit to the quality, this book hasn't really grown over the last few years, but the expenses have the unit cost had to be adjusted upwards, which is negative for the actuarial reserves. So there's probably about a ZAR 200 million overall impact from the actuarial assumptions at year-end. Moving on to a much better story, Momentum Corporate. This business, again, we incurred heavy losses during COVID. We then implemented -- now this business is different to retail. In retail, we sort of live with the premium rates we gave to clients. In Momentum Corporate, we negotiate them every year with the employer. And it's quite often based on the employer's own frames experience that we will do these negotiations. I recall Dumo going and they're like increasing premiums by 20%, 30%. Now we're losing 400%. So I remember giving Dumo a hard time like can't we push these rates up a bit more because at that time, it looked to me like we're going to take losses for another year or 2 with those increases. In line with many other assumptions I've been wrong with in my life, COVID disappeared quite quickly or not disappeared, but it reduced quite quickly. So all of a sudden, we're making mortality profit. So we've gone from an environment of making unusually high mortality losses to actually making decent profits at the moment. Now obviously, the downside is that this is annually rebroked business. So we do expect giving away a bit of that margin going forward. But Dumo promises as always to be very diligent to not cut those premiums too quickly in response. The other part here is a disability book. People who have been following us longer. We went through a 5-, 6-year period run in the beginning of these 5 years, sort of the end of it, where we took steady losses every year on a disability book, ZAR 100 million here, ZAR 200 million there. I recall wondering whether we should be in this business at all. Significant action was taken to reprice the book, manage the disability better. It's both in terms of accepting the claims and also working with the claims to get them back into work. And we've gone from a situation of perennial losses to now making steady profit. So there's a few hundred million rand swing from the disability book as well. So I must say Corporate has done exceptionally well. There is tailwinds there. But I would say the underlying profitability of this business and maybe shifted more than any other, if you try and look through the noise over the last 5 years. Moving away from the Life operations. Now our Health business is a very steady, very good contributor to group earnings. At ZAR 290 million is net of our minority shareholders in this business. The health environment is extremely complex. NHI is never far from mind, amongst other things. At the same time, the economics of this business, so the environment operator is very complex, but the economics here really isn't administrated to a large degree. Fee per member, cost per member and I'm going to say this business has done very well to expand its operating margins. They're managing year after year to get fee increases slightly above inflation because they're growing by 1% or 2%, which is good in terms of members. It's a good achievement when employment isn't growing. So we're probably getting some market share gains and also making costs below inflation. So the jaws the operating margin is expanding here and the business is doing really well. Non-life insurance, there's 2 very different businesses within that number. So Guardrisk, which I still captive insurer. Hillie, I'm not going to cry except maybe for joy at ZAR 5 billion. My throat's dry. Okay. Now, so nonlife insurance. Guardrisk is in here. Guardrisk had a phenomenal year, earnings of ZAR 530 million. It's the first time that had over ZAR 0.5 billion. Guardrisk launched the double-up campaign about 4 years ago where the plan was to double revenues and earnings. And it was quite an ambitious target because I don't know if you remember, but it's not like SA Inc. was a massively positive story back than either, and they have actually fared out achieved on that personal target. Also, sometimes Guardrisk is in the news because there's a big client leaving, setting up their own business. The list of clients wanting to do something with Guardrisk is a lot longer then the list of clients looking to set up their own license. So I think there's a lot of runway despite the high base of ZAR 530 million in this business. It really is a great operation. Unfortunately, if you do the math, you'll see this ZAR 300 million missing, which is the losses in Momentum Insure. Momentum Insure is largely a personal lines insurer, not an easy environment. We've been through cycles of quite heavy claims inflation. Weather has not been very helpful. Load-shedding doesn't help, increased crime rates, doesn't help, condition of the infrastructure doesn't help. Yes. And a lot of action has been taken like Jeanette said. I mean there's no -- we can't work the fact that we have to increase premium rates to reflect the higher levels of claims and things like that. And we are internally quite confident we'll get back to profitability in a reasonable time frame. But for the year, the losses were ZAR 300 million. I would point out that ZAR 100 million of the ZAR 300 million is a bit of a technical deferred tax adjustment. So because of the level of losses, we felt it's prudent to derecognize the existing tax asset to some degree, so which compounds the -- well, maybe we're going to want to back next year, run. It will be even more -- will be a quicker recovery in earnings. Moving on to Africa. A very good year in Africa. About ZAR 200 million of that ZAR 400 million swing, ZAR 500 million swing is mortality again. Some of you might know that in Namibia and Botswana were hit even harder than SA per capita in terms of COVID in the third wave. So very big mortality recovery in those 2 countries. We also had positive market movements, both in terms of equities and yields in the select countries. The last bit of the improvement is a bit of a technicality, which relates to us now setting the inflation assumptions in SADC a bit closer to South Africa. I think historically, we were a bit overly conservative assuming that inflation is going to be a lot higher in those countries than in SA. New initiatives that includes India, but there's a bit more there. There's momentum money, consult, exponential. After ZAR 40 million reduction, India accounts for ZAR 80 million. So India is trending in the right direction maybe a little bit slower than we were hoping in terms of reaching breakeven, but the trend is right. I've got a slide on India a bit later. And then lastly, shareholders, this is really a sum of 2 items. There's an approximately ZAR 18 billion, ZAR 17 billion portfolio of shareholder funds where we earn investment income. And of that, we deduct ZAR 150 million to ZAR 200 million of head office costs. That's great value for money for the business units. But last year, we had quite positive VC fund gains. Now if you follow that market, you realize that the whole fintech VC market has slowed down a bit. So in the current year, we actually took small negative fair value movements on those investments. In terms of volumes, the slide is drawn to the scale exactly all over the place. Now markets has always asked me, can't you like cut something here. I think I'm too much of a mathematician I just put it there as it is, it all adds up. There's no funny scales, not logs. But it also tells a story here that Momentum Investments is half our business in terms of volumes. It's important to remember that we are bigger in terms of the affluent IFA market than probably most of our peers. We're more weighted towards this business. It's the reality of our existence. So if Momentum Investment is down 4%, it almost guarantees your group's going to be down close to 4. That is just how dominant it is. If we look beyond that, Momentum Life, actually saw some growth in sales volumes. So later on when I talk about the value of new business, it was not really a volume issue, it is slightly deeper than that. Metropolitan Life, a bit of a slowdown as the year progressed as we started to deal with the quality issues, but still flat year-on-year. Momentum Corporate is down 15%. But in Corporate, the actual volume is not as important as exactly how you managed to price the big deals and the deal flow you got for the year. And in the current year, even though slower than last year, some of the business like in the annuities, we wrote at quite decent margins. So the VNB is flat despite volumes being lower year-on-year. In Africa, we don't split the retail and corporate. I suppose marketers will kind of fit in a sixth column, maybe we'll think about it. But again, so but there's a very different trend there. So corporate business is actually down year-on-year. We had some big business in Namibia is to last year from corporate clients, which didn't repeat this year. So the Momentum Africa number is a bit more volatile because it's not a retail-only business. Can new business margins. Momentum Life, margins have continued to decline. Now this business houses Investo savings products so retirement, annuities, endowments. Those margins are always going to be quite tight, okay? So you don't expect those margins to be more than 0 to 1%. What is an issue here is that the Myriad, which is our protection business, which should really be profitable on new business terms. That's also with a negative margin at the moment. Now a lot of action has been taken, but I just want to explain that there's been a really big change over the last year in the way we sort of operate our discount models, if you want to call it. So we used to have what we call Multiply Myriad Integration. So if you had a certain status of multiple, you could qualify a certain discount and things like that. That model has been replaced by Life Returns, which is a more life specific model that over the long term, we think is actually better for both the consumers and for our own risk management. But in the short term, it's negative because under the multiply structure, we assume that the high status is like gold and whatever that they'll have high persistency, low claims, things like that. So from a modeling perspective, the multiply integration business is actually very high margin compared to the business now that doesn't have that feature. Johan is chasing me and my team up on this, but the plan is that once we have enough experience on life returns, we will assess to what degree can we build in better behavior. In that client base, we have bigger discounts. But at this stage, the guys are getting discounts, but we're not really aligned for it in terms of assumptions, and it's hurting the VNB margin a little bit here. Momentum Investments, margins increased despite volumes down. That's written in annuity book. Annuity margins have continued to widen, which is quite interesting. I mean the volumes are so large that it actually quite a struggle to find high-quality credit assets to back the liabilities. So the margins are based almost on assuming government bond type of underlying asset structure, yet the margins are decent. So if we get into a cycle, let's say, 3 or 5 years from now where corporate credit markets improvements in Africa, the underlying profits on this book could be actually very strong. So that will be interesting thing to look out for. Metropolitan Life, Jeanette has already dealt with this. It's largely due with sales quality, which is really a function of sales management to a great degree. Momentum Corporate, as I mentioned, decent margins for the year for that segment despite lower volumes. I would also mention that it tends to be quite different than on the funds at work, we tend to have positive margins year after year whereas on a large client, it's a bit more dependent on the exact deal you negotiate and agree on. And then Africa margins have continued to decline. That is really a story of Namibia. So Namibia on its own has a worse margin than anybody else. It's worse than Momentum Life. Whereas [indiscernible] has the best margin of anything here. So the average of African negative margin is really a VNB story. I mean we have to get the VNB in the Namibia to be at least slightly positive for Africa to be a real contributor. This EV slide this is a finance slide. It's very boring, but it's boring on purpose. That's the message here. We went through a pandemic and some significant market volatility, yet the EV keeps steadily growing through thick and thin. The return on embedded value. So if you think of it as EV growth over the 5 years has been 8% per year. I would personally say that under the conditions that were given that's quite a credible achievement. As we're now coming out of the COVID period, the ROEV has accelerated to 17% in the last year, EV of ZAR 33,975 important number to remind yourselves, I want to talk about that a little bit later. This is a slide I haven't had before, normally in my presentation are the same every 6 months. That's why I don't need notes it's become a habit. So but this is a new slide. It gives a bit of a rundown of the last 5 years, and it's a nice summary of what we've been through. So mortality, not very surprising, we went through COVID difficult times. Now we're coming out of it, mortality profits are back. Investment variances, not too much of a trend there. And the point is there is no trend. We had a mercy of markets to a great degree. It's just the nature of our operations. The 2 at the bottom are the ones that why I put this slide up. Expense variances. If you go back to all our results presentations in the last 5, 6 years, cost containment has been a big thing, particularly in reset and grow in the first 3 years. It actually drove a lot of our positive metrics in the early years. The last 2 years, as we have started to invest in modernizing our business, building new channels that has a cost. And it's not like we spend money today and we have revenues tomorrow. There's a time lag between the 2. So we actually had group costs overall grew more than inflation for the first time last year in 5 or 6 years. And it immediately comes through as a negative expense variance here. So I think the storyline is changing a bit like rather than just keeping costs down to a minimum, it's more about what return we get on the investments we're making at the moment. The second one is terminations. If you look at the industry results to date in December, negative persistency tends to be a feature. In our business, it's only really Metropolitan. In Momentum Life, we continue to see positive variation, in Corporate, it's positive variation. Africa, persistency is positive. So I would say that we look very good despite the tough economy in terms of overall client behavior. Capital coverage. This is something that obviously, for me is a big focus. Our capital ratio, we target a range of 1.62% at the moment, we're at 2.1%. So we are above the upper end of our solvency target hence, the buyback and so on that I'll talk about a little bit later. So the strong solvency position, our capital position also enabled the 20% increase in dividend. It's a dividend of ZAR 1.20 just to also clarify the final dividend is actually ZAR 0.70 versus the interim dividend of ZAR 0.50. So that's a decent payout in a couple of weeks. And in the buyback, the Board has approved that we do further ZAR 500 million of buybacks starting probably now sometime in the next day or 2. If you combine that with the ZAR 500 million we did earlier in the year, it's ZAR 1 billion of buybacks for the year and our total dividend payment of ZAR 1.8 billion, that's ZAR 2.8 billion, which is 10% of our market cap that we distributed to shareholders in the 12-month period. And it's not that different in the previous 12 months. So the cash generation both in terms of for the group and then for shareholders is very high here. Yes, average price. So we bought the shares we bought back last year. We averaged ZAR 17.20, I mentioned, remember the ZAR 34 the EV number. We ended up paying about ZAR 0.50 to the rand on the buybacks on EV. So because our EV has grown by 17% through the year, the value of the buybacks in retrospect even more than we thought. So effectively, we bought back ZAR 2 billion of EV for ZAR 1 billion of cash that we paid out. I don't have the calculator here, but I think it added about ZAR 0.50 per share to the remaining shareholders. But actually more like ZAR 0.60. Okay, cash generation. These are my 2 favorite slides. So it's probably the best way of looking at an insurance company in between all the noise. So no [ Fc ] to the other 126 business units. But these are the 4 business units that actually paid dividends to holdings. So thank you. If you work for the non-dividend paying business units, please bypass the snacks on the way out. Leave it for the Guardrisk and the Health guys again. Now so these are the 4 dividend paying entities in the group. We'll start with SA Life. So obviously, the Life business had phenomenal earnings last year, ZAR 4.5 billion. And we speak about the fact that the yield curves, which basically means asset liability mismatches, generated a lot of the profit. The nice thing is that because we do have assets back in the liabilities, it's complex, but some insurance companies actually don't. It means we can actually pay out those profits. I mean. So it's not like it's funny money. It's a one-off, but it's real. It's a realized profit we get there. So we were able to pay out ZAR 3.8 billion in dividends from the Life company. I mean, it's a big check. Then Guardrisk and health paid dividends, what I would consider almost normal for them. I think on Guardrisk, when the business was bought 10 years ago, the expectation was it will be quite a long time before dividends will be received because of the uncertainty around capital. Yet Guardrisk has become quite a steady dividend payer over the last few years. Health always been a good dividend payer. And then Africa, similar to SA Life, the SA companies are mature businesses who don't really need to retain much capital. So most of the earnings are paid out. If you do the math, these 4 companies, legal entities, paid out ZAR 5 billion to the group, okay? So these are the guys who really make it possible to do everything else we do. So this table brings it together. So the first 4 lines are the dividends from these entities. And the first thing I'll talk about is the money that didn't get spent this year, and that's India. So for the last few years, we have spent ZAR 400 million a year, funding the India growth plan. Towards the early part of this financial year, we got a minority shareholder, Abu Dhabi Investment Authority to inject money into the entity. So they bought 10%, 5% from us, 5% from another partner Aditya Birla. That capital injection is sufficient to fund 2 years of aggressive growth in India. So effectively, the dilution of 5% the financial benefit you see here, we didn't have to inject by ZAR 400 million this year, and we don't have to inject our ZAR 400 million this year. Whether we have to inject some money later on that's another model we need to talk about later, but anyway. So the capital injection by Abu Dhabi really funds 2 years of growth in India. Momentum Insure, we had to inject ZAR 580 million in there. When I say we had to, we have internal capital targets for all our business units. So it's not like Momentum Insure was like close to 1x SCR. It's more about the fact that we target 1.5 in the insured business. So we injected ZAR 580 million to that. MM finance company, I spoke about this at the interims. We do some lending in the group, for example, pension back home loans. We do Guardrisk Premium Finance. This is our treasury company that funds those books. So we had some expansion in our lending activities. Momentum Money, we injected ZAR 160 million. That funds 2 years of operations for Momentum Money. At the end of those 2 years, we should have clarity in terms of the commercial prospects for that entity. Other operations are small. Preference shares a bit different this year. Normally, we pay about ZAR 100 million in preference dividends. We redeemed ZAR 400 million of preference shares during the year. So that was really just the capital mix decision we made. After all that operational type of activity before we engage with the shareholder transactions, we had ZAR 3.4 billion of cash at holdings, ZAR 1.8 billion is what we spent on dividends and ZAR 1 billion will be spent on the buyback. So we end up with about ZAR 600 million of cash at holdings. So I always quite like this view because it brings it all together. I mean, I suppose what is the model of the story. First of all, it's a Life company, it's a cash generator of note. I mean without the Life company, it won't be quite as much fun here. It's not growing very fast, but it's printing cash. The other thing to note here is, if you look at the growth in cash generated to MMH, you went up by ZAR 1 billion in a year and earnings will be ZAR 1 billion. You talk about the fact that most of our earnings is backed by cash. So when earnings go up and down, there tends to be almost a 1:1 movement in terms of dividend flows to MMH. Yes, and I suppose the last thing it tells you that despite the good dividends and the buybacks, there's still a bit of money left at the center. So I suppose somewhere down the line, we'll have to look at the dividend policy as well. My last couple of slides. India. We've been in India now for basically 6 years. It's become a little bit more topical with investors. So I thought I'll just spend a minute or 2 here on it. The left-hand side shows you the gross written premiums of this business. So we started 6 years ago, ZAR 400 million, it's now ZAR 6 billion a year business in terms of premium income. Remember, this isn't an admin business. This is an underwriting business. So this is actually real revenue. To put it into context, that's more than the premium income across all our Africa operations. It's actually bigger than Momentum Health in terms of contributions, I think. At this growth rate, I'll be surprised if we don't get to ZAR 20 billion in about 3 years. That will make it the biggest operation in our group by far. I mean I'm not going to name any competitors, but it's actually crazy to think of ZAR 20 billion book, how big it is in context of SA insurance. So the top line growth in India is not a problem. The product is attractive. Our partner is great. It's sort of flying off the shelves. We also have a very good support from the different banks in India. The more interesting question is on the right-hand side. And in terms of how much of that revenue actually comes to the bottom line. Now a lot of this language will be very familiar to Brandt, okay. So starting with the red bar, that's the expense ratio. At the moment, we're spending about 45% of our premium income on our expenses. We need to get it to 30%, 35%, 30% preferably. At the current level of premium growth, you would think to yourself, you're going to double premiums it goes from 45% to 22%, not quite easy. You pay commissions and there's a cost to expanding our business. That stated, we are very comfortable that within 2, 3 years, we're down to 30%. So this sort of top line growth. The expense ratio is not a problem. That's going to get to the budget of 30%, 35%. The bigger question mark is the claims ratio. So you can see the claims ratio has started to tick up the last 2 years. It's in the mid-60s. That is probably 5% higher than it needs to be for us to meet our internal targets and breakeven points. A lot of action is being taken around the loss ratio management. I mean they're repricing parts of the book. It is an industry-wide issue, which means the Indian regulator is also a bit more open than usual to the repricing activities we're doing. We're also looking to benefit designs, certain cancer benefits, things like that. In India as well, it's a big market, hundreds of cities we present and actually thousands of cities we think where the hospitals are. There's fragment hospital group, there's a lot of different operators. We're having to also become a bit more selective. If we see there 2 or 3 hospitals there that are claiming excessively, we have to cut them out. So the fraud waste and abuse management as well. And obviously, we actually play quite a big part in terms of IP in terms of health risk management and things like that. If we can get the claims ratio down to about 55% to 60%. We will break even in 2 years, latest 3 years. So if you're wondering, is this business a success in terms of top line, definitely, in terms of managing expenses operations, definitely. In terms of claims ratio, let's see how the claims ratio is what it needs to be. VNB, our only slide on VNB. I look at this as a chance to share information because this information can be interpreted in a few ways. If you look 5 years ago, most of our VNB was protection business, Metropolitan Funeral, Myriad, Momentum Life Myriad protection business. 5 years later, our margins are almost 0 on our protection business. It's a problem in a couple of ways because it should be positive to contribute. But secondly, I think most industry players acknowledge that risk business should be the profitable part of your book. I mean it's less competitive, less substitute products, things like that. What's heading it within the group VNB is that the net VNB has increased fourfold or fivefold depending on exactly where you measure it. So it's been a great story in annuities. Savings business, the margins are certain that it's never going to be humongous in our VNB. Internally, we have a target to get the VNB back to ZAR 1 billion 3 years from now. The short story there is we need the protection VNB to ZAR 400 million at least ZAR 400 million to ZAR 500 million to get there. So yes, watch the protection margin that is an important number going forward. And then you can't have an insurance presentation without some IFRS slides. This one is actually a repeat from a recent Investor Day. Repetition is the mother of all learning. So let's do it. I think the short story here is that under IFRS 4, our liabilities were ZAR 6 billion higher than IFRS 17. What does that mean is you can basically think that we were overly prudent under IFRS 4, okay? So we're releasing ZAR 6 billion of liabilities. So we can pat ourselves in the back, we were more conservative in the past. It doesn't really help you going forward, but it's good hear, it's really better that way. Also, if you then adjust the other accounting issues, our total equity increases by ZAR 3 billion. So it's about a 10% increase in our equity. We mentioned that the investor day that our earnings will drop a little bit, let's say 3%, 4%. Combine that with a 10% increase in equity, ROE will shrink by 1% or 2%. So historically, we had 18%, 20% ROE target going forward on IFRS 17, 16 to 18 is maybe a more realistic target for ROE. At this Investor Day, we also had people asking us. Thanks for letting me know that the CSM, CSM stands for contractual service margin. In simple terms, think of it as the future profits embedded in your current book. It's the excess prudence in your current liabilities. Investors say, thanks for letting us know, ZAR 6.5 billion. But where does it come, like what business units, what products? So this is group finance is gift to the analyst. So there's some new information. We split the ZAR 6.5 billion by business units. So for example, we're saying ZAR 7.7 billion of that. So most half sits in Momentum Life. Of that, almost half, almost 90% is Myriad. So I remember my comments earlier about the importance of Myriad for VNB going forward, importance of Myriad for earnings going forward. I mean that business is going to have a big influence on our financial results over the next coming years. Then you look at Metropolitan Life a bit more balanced. Maybe people would be surprised because people always think of Metropolitan just funeral. It's not. There's a lot more there's annuity, there's savings. Other things are a bit smaller. And at the bottom, we have a thing that's called expected 1-year release rate. It means how much of that CSM we expect to release each year. So for example, on Momentum Life, that future profit of ZAR 7.7 billion, we're going to release it over 7 years on average. So it's ZAR 1.1 billion a year. So if you ask me today, like if nothing -- if everything goes to plan, which never happens in insurance, what is the earnings under IFRS 17 from Momentum Life, the answer would be like ZAR 1.1 billion. That's a good starting point. It will be ZAR 700 million for Metropolitan Life, that's a good starting point. So this will hopefully keep all the investors excited while they update their models going forward. So that was the last of the financial slides. I will just close at the presentation as usual. I'm a couple of minutes over. I conclude with the statements made by Hillie and Jeanette that even if you look at the underlying earnings of ZAR 4 billion, ZAR 4.2 billion that sort of range. They are a solid result in still what is quite a demanding environment. I think it's a very pleasing set of results. Secondly, our strong balance sheet, I mentioned often that it's good for the dividend and buybacks. It's good for a lot of more things as well. We will never say no to an idea because we lack the liquidity or the funding as the FD, it may be dangerous to say this, but our balance sheet extends further than people's ideas. I mean if there's a good idea, we can fund it, which is obviously a great position to be in. This is repetition from last time. In a 0 growth environment, winning market share is the only way for a larger domestic business to succeed. I mean that remains the focus. Three top-of-mind issues. Hillie had his top of mind issues last time. Jeanette didn't have it this time, but I kept in mind. Now firstly, IFRS 17, we're ready with the numbers, but not about the bidding to everything. Now all of a sudden, I've gone from worrying up having financial results to thinking how do we refresh all our risk management principles and stuff on the IFRS 17. Secondly, top of mind is margins on retail. [indiscernible] told me yesterday, you're welcome to come and work there. I'll just keep watching Johan. Thanks I'm watching you fix it. And then lastly, insure here. Now Insure was first last time, I understood it's important that we internally are quite confident about the prospects of the plans we have in Insure. So that's an important statement to make. And then lastly, as per usual, I think we have to congratulate our employees for the great results, similar to Jeanette, I just want to thank the clients, advisers. They're more important in our business than may be in a lot of other places. And it's my last chance to thank Hillie for the last 5 years. I wish you well for your retirement. I do know he's going to run the right cut. So it's not a bad way to start. You'll have to give me a lemon or 2. Okay. Thanks.

Thank you. Let's give Risto another round of applause. Thank you very much. Jeanette has got a very busy afternoon ahead and Risto as well with analysts and the media. I'm sure he doesn't mind that. I mean he's done his fair share of media interaction. But we've got a couple of questions that have come through on our platform, on our corpcam platform from analysts, which I think we could handle now very quickly. Not more than 4. Mike Christelis from UBS. Risto, wants to know if you could explain the sharp deterioration in expense variances in the embedded value for the second half. of 2023.

Yes, Mike. So I sort of alluded to it what I presented saying we have accelerated spending on a number of projects. Also, it's linked a bit to the very good results. So I think of Momentum Corporate, I wouldn't mind me using a good example where they're going through a very good underwriting cycle right now. It meant that they accelerated some of the system decisions and projects to do it this year and sort of things you can capitalize because you're only sort of exploring system options. They also decided to sort of prefund some of the work they need to do around scheme closures and things like that. Yes. So I think it's 2 things. It's really increase in real investment. And the fact that the good underwriting results enabled some of the business units to fast-forward some of the things they wanted to do into the current year.

Risto, just hang in there. The next one is for you as well. From Warwick Bam RMB Morgan Stanley. You booked an unfavorable expense assumption change in Metropolitan Life. What are new business volume growth do you need in Met Life and Mom Life to avoid further negative expense variances and/or assumption changes.

Yes. The easy answer here is that but it needs to be greater than inflation, okay? So that's a simplistic answer. Our unit cost assumptions assume a 6% increase per year. Obviously, if our book grows by 1% or 2%, and our cost by 1% or 2%, the summer is less than 6%. I mean, so there's a few variations to it. But you could think of it as inflation or better to be sure, of avoiding further unit cost changes.

Jeanette, the next question is for you. The underlying earnings now currently about ZAR 4 billion versus the target for next financial year '24 of between ZAR 4.6 billion to ZAR 5 billion. What are the key growth drivers that would see earnings hit the financial year '24 target from the current base? This is Matthew Pouncett from Laurium Capital.

Thank you, Matthew. Look, I mean, I think everything that we've spoken about today, I mean, I don't think we're going to have a year where we can sit back and think that the market is going to give it to us all that the economy is going to give it to us. I mean I think in every single business, I want to get back to why we so passionately believe that our federated business model is the right model to have. I think every one of the ExCo members know what they're accountable for. And all of us are going to have to make sure that we win back market share. All of us are going to have to watch the cost base of our business. All of us are going to have to do absolutely everything we can to improve on every single one of our numbers and targets every day. Now that ZAR 4.6 billion to ZAR 5 billion is actually also broken down per business and even those businesses need or they do know exactly what they need to deliver, even in terms of sharing in bonus pools at the end of the year or so. So I think for me, it's about that focus. No one has any doubt on what we need to do, but I think it is everything. I mean, I think we won't be able to let slip on anything because it all works together. It's a vague answer, Matthew, but I mean, I think it is absolutely everything that we need to do.

As you engage with analysts and others later. Thank you, Jeanette. The final question is from Cornelia Zemen. I think Risto, this is for you. What do you think is a sustainable underlying earnings run rate for Corporate.

Yes, Dumo is laughing because me and him had a few phone calls in the last months on it. So I'll tell you exactly. We think it's about ZAR 700 million to ZAR 750 million. I personally think it might be a bit higher. It's really a function of how quickly the market reprices the latest mortality experience. So we've gone from those big losses to some profits now. And every review, the premium rates are coming back down, how quickly it comes down, that will determine it. I think do my lives in the market, and he keeps telling me how competitive it is. So he thinks it's going to get cut quite quickly. I keep telling him, we have such a great service offering whatever you can hold it a bit longer. So Dumo will give you ZAR 700 million to ZAR 750 million, I'll make it ZAR 700 million to ZAR 800 million. That's quite a good range.

Thank you very much. Let's give Risto and Jeanette a round of applause for answering those questions. Well, there we have it, and I'm sure there'll be more engagement with the analysts, Risto and Jeanette to answer more technical type questions. And I want to thank our analysts for not having asked too many technical questions for now. Well, this brings us to the end of this presentation of our results, the group itself, as you've had also making an end from a leadership perspective, all the best Hillie and make sure you hit a few berries here in the writer cap and all the best for Jeanette. Also, congratulations to and all the best for the year ahead. Thank you very much for everybody. Now we've ended our presentation, and there will be occasions, of course, as we finish it for everybody who's here in the room to interact with Jeanette, Risto and Hillie as well. And Mrs. Meyer, it's been a pleasure getting to see you and know you. Thank you very much for coming here. Now we know all about the big 5. I want to ask which of the big 5 is Hillie. Thank you very much.