Nepa AB (publ) (NEPA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to Nepa's Q1 2025 Earnings Call. I am here today with the CEO, Anders Dahl, and the CFO, Filip Tottie. Welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We will start off with a presentation of the quarterly report. And after that, we're going to have a Q&A session. And if you, as a viewer, would like to type in some questions, you can do that by going to the chat bar below and type it in there. Go ahead.

Thank you, and welcome to the Q1 2025 financial report from Nepa. I'm Anders Dahl, and with me I have Filip Tottie today to present the numbers. So first, a little short -- a brief introduction about Nepa, and then we're going to walk you through the Q1 highlights, financial highlights and some strategic highlights. And then we're going to walk you through some transformation, strategic initiatives that we have been -- that we have actually kicked off and some of them are actually in motion right now. And then we're going to walk through a little bit more detailed overview of the financial results. And that's -- and then we're going to wrap up with an outlook and then a Q&A. So Nepa is a leading marketing intelligence company, a marketing insight company. We are a global company. We track brands across the globe, more than 7,500 brands, measuring in 50 different markets around the globe. We deliver our insights to CMOs, insights departments and marketing department and even C-level CEOs. And we deliver the report and the insights either as a subscription or a platform or as a traditional report in an ad hoc project. This is one of the picture on this slide is one way of delivering a report in a conference, in an SMR conference. It's a colleague, Vanessa, who is delivering a speech on marketing mix modeling. So delivering insight reports and dashboards in PowerPoint presentations and all with the intention and the goal and the aim to support C-level executives to make insightful decisions around marketing. The business model is based on recurring revenues or recurring setup subscriptions and then also ad hoc projects that we deliver to our clients. The cornerstone of our business is brand tracking, campaign evaluation and marketing mix modeling with the addition of continuous marketing mix modeling that we launched in late Q4 of last year. We combine market survey data with cutting-edge technology and the insight and the fuel in those kind of models and platforms that we generate is data collection based on surveys that we do across the globe. We work with the big survey providers, but we also use other data, especially when it comes to marketing mix modeling from sales data and other data to fuel that model. And of course, the data collection side is an area that we are working very diligently with right now. And I think the whole industry is looking into ways to kind of develop and transform the data collection with the help of AI, with the help of synthetic data. That is also a main driver to make sure that from a client perspective, the data becomes even better. But also from a P&L perspective, from our side, that the cost of this data is pretty high. And of course, if we can find ways to replace that with synthetic data, we can get better insight but also improve our P&L significantly. We are a global company, and we have presence in Northern -- we have the strongest presence in Northern Europe, head office in Stockholm, but we have offices -- sales and delivery offices in the U.K. and in the U.S. and also a very strong team in Mumbai and India that not only do kind of the back end and support when it comes to our service, but also do a lot of kind of top line deliveries of insights to our clients around the globe. So Filip, Q1 highlights.

Yes. Thank you, Anders. So it's been a really exciting quarter with a lot of good progress across the company. So let's dive into the key highlights for Q1. First and foremost, we were really happy to see that the order intake, i.e., billings continue to perform very well. So this is the second consecutive quarter that we have growth year-over-year, and we are heading full speed now into Q2 and the whole company is more leaned towards growth than ever before. We have also implemented several key strategic initiatives across the commercial and the product and operations team that Anders will talk a little bit more about shortly. Thirdly, during Q1, we have phased out 2 large but low-margin contracts that impacted the revenues. And this is because we are strategically realigning towards a more redefined and clear ICP and transitioning away from this complex legacy custom setups that was hindering us from becoming truly scalable and profitable. The good news is also that the previously preannounced churn of SEK 6.5 million is extended into May instead of Q1. And finally, we were implementing proactively to offset the lower revenues that we just mentioned, 2 larger cost-saving programs or transformation programs. The first one being for the U.K. operations that we completed in Q1. The second one is for the Swedish operations that is completed now in Q2. Both of these initiatives will generate roughly SEK 19 million in annualized savings already now from Q2 and onwards. So really happy to see all the progress that we are doing.

Thank you, Filip. And just diving a little bit deeper into those strategic initiatives, and they are not only from the outside and from a P&L perspective, they all look like cost savings, but it's definitely a transformation of the business, a new way of doing business. And late last year, we kicked off a net new logo or a new business team. Beginning of this year, we split up the revenue department into 2 teams, one customer success and then an extension or a buildup of the new business team or the net new logo team. And that gives a much clearer focus on driving new business and also making sure that we're working with existing clients to make sure that they're not churning, but also developing them and delivering the best possible service, and hopefully also grow them with additional services, brand tracking to campaign measurements to MMMs, et cetera, and ad hoc businesses as well. So that is a much more kind of a client-centric way of working that we have really transformed the business into. So that was rolled out in February of this year, and it's full up to speed right now. We have also invested both in people and money into marketing to really grow and a much more kind of growth-driven marketing strategy. One is, of course, to make sure that we are working with the right ideal client profile. So we have redefined that or refined that more or less, but also to spend more money on brand advertising. You can see that on our website now, nepa.com, that we have recently kind of rebranded that whole site. And it's much more kind of friendly towards making sure that we promote kind of the insight you can get and also an easy way to get access with us to get our services. And we're going to continue this. So this is not kind of -- yes, it's a cost-saving program or -- but it's a transformation program that will have the output of saving cost. But the marketing investments will continue, and we will continue to grow them along the year in order to really make sure that we are growing top line and take the momentum that we see now in Q4 and Q1 when it comes to an increased order intake and kind of ride on that wave. When it comes to the product and product improvement, we have been very focused for the last -- since I joined in 2023, we have been very focused on product -- operational efficiency to make sure that we can be more efficient on the operational side, even on the product side. Starting up when Jakob came in as the new CTO end of last year, we have really kind of redefined the whole tech architecture that we are delivering our solutions on to our clients. So that is a big change that will happen during the fiscal year of 2025. We kicked it off. We initiated that with proof of concept end of last year. We're going to continue to roll this out during the year 2025. So much more focus on client tech that will actually be visible for our clients for them to be able to work with the data, to be able to work with the solutions in a much better way than before. So that's going to be a big change, not only on the P&L side internally, but definitely on the client side that they will face new solutions towards Q3 and Q4. So we will get back -- come back with more updates in regards to the kind of the product and the tech setup. When it comes to the operational efficiency or the operational transformation, AI today is a staple product in our organization. We use AI in most of our processes internally when it comes to -- because we are a data-driven company. So of course, AI is really useful in order to kind of make sure to make the processes much more efficient, but also to kind of mine and work with the data in a more efficient way. We're also exploring further AI product enhancements. We already have 2, 3 products today with AI features in the product. And like I mentioned before, a big area for us to explore more with data is, of course, synthetic data. How can we use the data we have to extrapolate on that data, make better conclusions, expand the data, do better forecasting, do better predictions for the future? And this all kind of the whole operational efficiency and the whole operational transformation will, of course, be visible and really tangible for our clients that they will see that there will be much more kind of client-specific solutions for them without customization. They will see a more efficient delivery without customization. And then we have also relocated a lot of internal segments to the Mumbai office. So they have a much bigger proportion of the work that is being done today from kind of market survey data and to delivery to the client. So we did that actually already last year to kind of change the geographical organization to be a much more kind of a functional organization now where people are working much closer together between Mumbai, Helsinki, Copenhagen, Stockholm and London. So let's dive into the financials. Filip, please.

All right. Thank you, Anders. So the financial highlights of Q1. For Q1, we delivered SEK 59 million in net sales, which is 13% below last year. But remember that we deliberately phased out larger contracts that were low margin. So if we exclude that, the underlying decline is only 7% in revenues or net sales. which is more reasonable given the turbulent market that we and our customers are in. Secondly, we're very happy to see that our continuous hard work and focus on improving profitability is visible yet again now in improved gross margins. And for Q1, the gross margin was 76.1%. So really happy to see that, that effort pays off. Our operating expenses underlying was down by 3%, but impacted by the restructuring of the U.K. office with SEK 2.6 million. Despite all the revenue decline and the restructurings and whatnot, we still managed to deliver a positive net cash flow of SEK 3 million for the quarter, leading to a very solid financial position with SEK 44.1 million in the bank, which gives us confidence and assurance that we are moving in the right direction, we're doing the right things, and we will continue to execute on the strategy as planned. Anders?

Right. So how will we kind of look into the future? And of course, one thing that we have talked a lot about even ending towards last year, the whole kind of resetting of the organization to be more kind of market-driven to be able to expand the business that there will be a very clear growth focus. And we have seen that. And the good thing is that we now see proof of that in Q4 and Q1 that there is an increase in bookings quarter-over-quarter, which is very positive. And also after the quarter ended, we see the same tendency in the month of April that we get good traction. So I think we have talked about that there was a kind of a wait-and-see sentiment in the market last year. And of course, we see that there are macroeconomic things that are impacting our clients this year as well. But we also see that the hard work we do on the sales and marketing side actually gives very good results and good ROIs. And we're actually taking clients from competitors, but we're also getting in with the redefined ICP list, the ideal client profile list, we have also being able to attract clients that are normally not big marketing insight clients. So that is also a good sign that the rebranding, refocused, resetting in the market are actually paying off with some new clients. Cost savings, we already kind of late last year or beginning of this year, we saw that there is a need for a transformation in the organization. And transformation also will lead to cost savings, which you can see the impact of now. So this is not that we are trying to do exactly the same things with less people. We're actually transforming the business to doing things in a new way with the help of AI, with the help of collaboration between the Mumbai office and the office in Sweden, with -- but also being able to kind of redefine how we deliver our products to our clients. We can't customize the way we have done before. And I think we also -- we did actually pretty deep kind of panel discussions with our clients to really understand all those customizations. Are they really a value that the clients appreciate. And we see that most of the things that we can do now with a more standardized pipeline will kind of -- will satisfy all those clients as well. So we don't need to drive the customization to that extent because the customization also drives cost on the back end, more people, more complex technical solutions. So the SEK 20 million or the SEK 19 million of annualized savings will have an impact already towards the end of -- beginning of Q2 and the first phase of it. And the second phase of it will have an impact towards the end of Q2. And of course, we are dedicated as a company. You can't really drive a company for that long without seeing growth. Profitability is, of course, one thing that we are pushing for very, very hard, but also growth. We need to get back into growth mode because we can't really save ourselves and become kind of a big company but just saving costs. So with the new business team, with the new salespeople, with the new marketing team, we see a momentum. And I'm really proud of all the people in Nepa, how they have kind of pushed the limits and really pushing for changes. And the momentum and the spirit in the organization is very strong. Implementation of a new tech strategy is a pretty big thing, using more standardized technology, but also being able to move away a little bit from our very strict internal focus on operational efficiency and see that we will continue to drive, but more with an emphasis to make sure that this is client-focusing. There will be much more focus. We have done the client tech workshops with our clients. We have done them internally. And during Q2 and especially Q3 and Q4, we will start rolling out some of those kind of client-facing client tech solutions. So that's a pretty big change into this fiscal year. But we will come back to you and talk more about during the Q2 presentation. So our current plan for 2025 is to aim for an adjusted EBITDA less CapEx margin for fiscal '25 that exceeds last year of 4.3%. And of course, we haven't really put in a very pie-in-the-sky, aggressive revenue expectation. But of course, we are pushing in for growth, but we have also kind of laid the foundation with transforming the business, making sure that we are really prudent on the cost side. So we are really kind of bullish and strong on pushing for a profitability track in 2025. So I think that ends our part of the presentation, and we will head over to questions and answers.

Thank you very much for the presentation. So let's start off with sales. Organic, as you said, was down by almost 13%, but due to larger contracts that was phased out with larger margins. ARR was down by 19%. But if you adjust this for the contracts, it's down by 2.4%.

That's correct.

Would you say that the quarter has been slower than you expected? I mean you're right that the ramp-up you saw at the end of the quarter was good, but I mean, overall?

A bit of a soft start. So I think, like I said, end of the quarter ramp-up that kind of helped up the entire quarter and then also going into Q2 stronger. But I think also we had those -- the reason why we did those cost savings, kicked them off very early on in the quarter because we saw that these things will happen certainly. But also, again, like I said before, it's not only maybe reactive cost reaction or cost saving. It's very much of a transformation process where we need to kind of work in a different way. This is such a data-driven business. So there are so many tools and ways of working that you can actually transform the business, and you need to do that in order to be competitive.

That's right. But we also see really good momentum in new business sales, especially on our core redefined ICP. So really happy to see that, but also to see that the order value, we see really good momentum, both towards the end of Q1, but also now entering into Q2 as well.

Okay. And would you say that the increase in April there was due to better sales push from your side? Or is it more of the clients that shifted focus and want to spend more? Or...

We have been a very inbound type of company before, but we are a very outbound company now. So it's a big change. And it's -- you see that in all aspects, both with kind of existing clients that we have a much -- with the new client success organization, we have a much clearer view of what do we -- how do we build the clients -- how do we build client value. On the new net new logo side, you have logos and clients that we have never ever talked to before. So some of the clients that we will -- that we have already signed with and we will be kind of launching during the next upcoming quarters are totally new. Some of them are totally new even in the market research industry. So this is definitely a sign of momentum. So even if there are kind of macroeconomics cloud in the sky, we see that we can definitely make a difference for these clients because we can actually help them to navigate a little bit in this more challenging...

I'm going to come back to that question later. But you're right, the order intake was up year-on-year. You see a better push there. Can you define what is the order intake that you see there?

It's basically billings. So we closed one business, both the ARR business and the ad hoc business. So closed for the period, not recognized as revenues, but closed new business.

Is this kind of numbers that you're going to publish going forward? Or...

That is something that we can look into. This is not something we have decided on.

We haven't done that historically, but it's definitely, especially when you see that there is -- because we have the ARR business and we have the ad hoc business, and there are both kind of -- the ARR business could be spread out over 12 months. It's an annual recurring revenue and ad hoc business could be a delivery that we're going to do the next week. So we just need to try and make sure that there's clear optics so the market really understands the difference and how that will impact the ongoing kind of revenue coming in.

Okay. Got it. You initiated another cost-cutting program for the Swedish business with -- was it SEK 11 million per year, right? And then you closed the U.K. part was SEK 8 million, so SEK 19 million in total. Can you go into a bit more detail what kind of cost-cutting you're doing? Is it personnel? Is it more efficiency? Or what is that?

Well, as Anders said, it's not just saving or cutting down costs. It's a transformation of Nepa, making Nepa as a stronger and more scalable and more profitable organization. So yes, there are roles that are made redundant, but it's also software, obviously, and premises, but it's more on how we work, like Anders said, with the AI tools and how we deliver those services to the customer. So we're changing the way of how we deliver the service to the customers.

And we can expect like SEK 19 million per year going forward?

Annualized. Yes.

That's pretty good. So we talked about it in Q4. You had a big launch of the continuous marketing model project there. What has been the client feedback? I mean, what do you see there?

The client feedback is really strong. We have had the Marketing Mix Modeling product for several years back, which was more kind of an ad hoc setup at that point. You did a project with Marketing Mix Modeling, you took all the sources and you help the client to make kind of educated decisions. The continuous Marketing Mix Modeling was launched at the end of last year. We already had a couple of pilot clients that are up and running now. So we have a good amount of clients running on cMMM. That's great. And I think it's great that we are selling more of that platform. The even better thing is that with MMM discussions and cMMM discussions, you're actually getting -- reaching much higher in an organization because you have to take a much more holistic perspective. So you will have the CMO in those discussions. You can't only have an insight director. You have to have trade sales if it is a company that sells through retail, you can even have the CFO and the CEO in those discussions because it's such a holistic way of looking at how you spend your money in the company, how can you optimize to make sure. Most of the clients that are really interested in MMM are clients that are -- that see that they have reached a point where they continue to spend more media money. They invest more in media. They are being pushed by the media agency to spend more media money, but they see that there is either a flat return on the sales side or the return on the investment or even a decline in some cases. And of course, at that point, if you want to look kind of a little bit higher up in the funnel, you need to kind of understand what are the competitors doing. What is the pricing? Are we really reaching the market with our message? Or what is it that's not really driving in our way of doing our communication? That's where we can come in and kind of mapping that out and helping the client to make educated decisions. And that's a big change. So just by launching that, and we had a big client event towards the end of last year in Stockholm opened up for so many new discussions. And MMM is also kind of a fairly hot topic right now in the market because people want to make sure that they're optimizing their media investments in a proper way.

Yes. Understood.

And it's not only a media investment. It's also communication, brand awareness, sender recall, content of your communication. So it's such a broad way of having a dialogue with the clients. So it helps us a lot.

So I want to dive a bit deeper on the underlying market. In Q3, you said wait-and-see mode. In Q4, you said continued cautiously client spending. And now with the tariffs from Trump and so on, I mean, the market hasn't improved really. But would you say that you're more or less optimistic now compared to 6 months ago?

Actually, we are more optimistic. And that's mainly driven by that we are so -- we have higher activity, much more kind of senior experienced people on the sales and marketing side in the business. That also helps people that are not so senior and not so experienced. So I think that drive and that feedback loop that what really clients are saying is really helping us to understand. There is still a sentiment of maybe not wait and see, but unpredictability. What is kind of the changes in the macro economy? What will happen with tariffs? But I think even in discussions like that, we can come in and help the client to kind of make some decisions based on that we can help with kind of mapping out competitive situation and segmentation study. So I think that there is much -- there is more willingness now to have a discussion and not saying just wait and see. And even big companies that have been really focused on kind of using AI to solve their internal problems or even on the market research side, they have opened up for that we need some seniority. We need someone that can actually help us to ask the right prompts to analyze this because even with AI, you need senior experienced people. And I think the way we're using AI internally is also a way that we can help clients. So I think we can come back to some of those clients that actually have churned over time and give them a little bit of a new package of solutions based on client tech, based on AI, and we don't have to set it up in maybe the cost complicated and customized way we have done it before. And that could actually start with an ad hoc deal and hopefully lead to recurring revenue. So more optimistic, not bullish, but more optimistic. And -- but again, based on that, the people in the organization are really working in a new way and much more efficient.

Yes, that's good. So let's move on to some questions from the web. One question is regarding the guidance that you give here now. And how sure are you that you're going to meet the guidance? I mean you talked about 4.2% of the EBITDA minus CapEx is not, as you said, just because of cost cutting, but it's -- you need growth there as well. Can you talk more about that?

As Anders said, it's not a pie in the sky. It's not super aggressive, but it's based on the continuous performance and the improvements of our new business team and our CF organization that works more -- much more value-based, but also obviously, with the implementation of the cost-saving programs and how we work and how we transform as Nepa. So it's absolutely ambitious, but not unrealistic.

And the effect is going to come end of Q2 or in Q3 or when?

It's staggering.

Yes, staggering.

Okay. So full effect in Q3 or...

Yes. Q2, you will see the impact of the second wave of cost savings and then you will see that from a P&L perspective in Q3 and Q4. But it's not that we have a giant hockey stick on the revenue side and the pie in the sky anticipation is a pretty -- I wouldn't say conservative, but a realistic way of looking at the revenue side.

You're going to grind the way up.

Yes. But I think also the way that getting new revenue -- and again, it's not -- from a P&L perspective, from a strict financial perspective, it looks like a cost-saving, but it's definitely a transformation, a new way of doing business. I think everyone has really been working hard to make sure that we're doing things in a different way. And that also means that from a pro forma P&L, every new krona or dollar or euro that we bring in will be put in a new context. It will not be put in the old context where we kind of maybe drove way too low net contribution, drove way too low profitability. So I think scaling up and the ramping up, whatever we can do on the top line will have a much bigger impact than just kind of 7, 8, 9, 12 months ago. Because the cost foundation and the transformation setup now doesn't mean that if we grow revenue top line by double digits, for example, we don't have to follow with the same ramp-up that we have done historically with a lot of more consultants. Of course, we probably need to hire more people, but not to the proportion and the extension that we have done historically.

Yes. from the web, is all analytics insight consulting and data science at Nepa handled in-house or are external resources involved?

I think 99% or 98% is probably -- it is internal resources in either of the countries. And then, of course, in some projects, we might do things together with someone from the outside. But the business idea, the models and especially in the platform products like brand tracking and all the kind of the insights and the output there is done by senior and junior internal associates.

And are you targeting more partnerships like Opticom or external partners of Nepa solutions beyond core segments or markets?

Yes. If we can open up new markets, and that could be either segments like in this case, with Opticom in B2B category that we haven't really been super strong in before. And they even have some clients that are a mix of B2B and B2C. But also, there could be geographical partnerships where we find that there is a partner that could actually use our machine or factory, our tools, our platforms in any other geographic markets. So there are discussions. And we have talked before on previous calls about M&A, for example, and that is still kind of an open discussion. We don't have any list of companies that we are looking at right now, but there is a constant flow of interesting companies knocking on our door and that's kind of partnerships and/or kind of M&A discussions with companies or solutions that might add something to what we can deliver to the market.

And working with partners, how long onboarding process is it? Is it a month or weeks or how fast?

It depends. And I think in the case of Opticom, they know the market research and insight industry, so it's much easier. If it is more of a kind of a product tech solution, it could probably take much longer time. So I think it depends. You can't -- there's no...

Okay. Next question. Now that the management team is complete, where will additional resources be focused compared to before?

The marketing team is -- or the management team is totally new with the whole C-level with Filip, with Jakob on the CTO side, with Sara that came in as the Chief Revenue Officer. So that is a total revamp of the whole C-level. And investment on resources and talent is, of course, always in those kind of seniority areas on the consulting side, that is one side to strengthen our client success to make sure that they have enough firing power when they talk to, especially when we are reaching higher up in the value chain to CMOs and CEOs. Sales and marketing, definitely an area that we're going to push for a lot this year with both talent resources but also investments in more kind of brand building. It's always easy to be a marketing insight company and talk about marketing insight when you don't really do that much marketing yourself. So I think that's going to -- we're going to push more on that. And then, of course, technology to make sure that we have on data science delivery, we have the right resources that can help our clients and ourselves to take the most benefit out of the data we have and the insights we have. AI, it's an area where we are not recruiting AI talent, but kind of AI -- people are used to work with AI. And that is kind of a mandate in the organization now to always question, can we do this with -- can AI improve this process in a better way? So marketing, sales, technology delivery.

Next question, if Nepa returns to organic growth and it expands top line by 10%, in which areas would you prioritize adding resources in Stockholm?

That's probably the same answer, to make sure that we can follow the clients with the skilled seniority on delivery side, to make sure that we can have those discussions on a senior level with our clients. So we already have a pretty strong senior team. But of course, with more clients, we need to kind of strengthen that out, sales and marketing, client tech, data scientists.

How much -- I mean, 10% growth, you should be able to do with the staff that you are right now.

No, absolutely. Yes. Again, like I said before, proportionately, what do we need in order to -- but again, the profitability will definitely see much different out from every kind of incremental krona or euros or dollars that we will make. So we don't have to kind of follow with the same way of hiring, especially on the consultancy side. And again, the focus on ARR will also drive the model or the way we are working in a different way. And that's also a new way of selling that we're actually seeing an uptake. You asked about the market before about wait and see. But one thing is that we see that we have much more discussions right now about ARR deals. So I think that's going to also help us out to build a more sustainable business for the future.

Have you lost any clients after the restructuring in the U.K.?

I wouldn't say that. No. No. I think it's -- there could be bits and pieces, but we also open up discussions with new clients. So I think we still have the same kind of sales power. And again, like I said before, we can't really anticipate to do things exactly the same way with less people. So we still need to be -- and we are still able to serve those clients in a very good way, but using resources in technology and resources across the whole organization. So the chargeability has gone up, and we are much more efficient in the organization to use our resources, combined with technology.

And then next question is regarding when you launched the new brand concept, you mentioned moving to a new office. Is it fair to expect annual savings in the millions from that move? And have you signed a new office lease in Stockholm? And when will the move happen?

Yes. So we have signed a new office for the Stockholm team. It's going to be great. It's in the central location of Stockholm, and we are planning to move during the summer in Q3, and it will be savings in millions. Okay.

Interesting.

We ticked all the boxes.

So let's see here now. The next question, I don't really understand, but I ask it anyway. In Q4, you said 2025 would prove out the pro forma P&L with the new organization. Do you still see 2025 as a key year for this?

Yes. Absolutely.

Good. Let's see here now. Yes, we have one question from the web. You have, during the past 9 to 12 months, invested heavily in the sales organization. When do you expect the investment to pay off? I mean you talked about it.

Yes. No, it's already paying off. It's already paying off by that we see a growth in bookings, and I think that's a strong sign. And looking at activities and pipelines, I think all those things are pointing in the right direction. But as always, this is not a sprint, it's a marathon, and you need to make sure that you see the right -- you build it up on looking at the right signs and building for kind of a long-term change. And to be honest, we have done this now for -- we did -- we kicked off the transformation Q3, Q4 of last year for the first phase. I think '23 was very much or early '24 was very much of a cost saving. Now it's more of a transformation to do things in a different way. So yes, have some patience. And I think we -- I'm really proud of seeing what we have done now in the last -- especially during this quarter and even Q4 and even the change between '23 and '24. So now we just need to make sure that we are pushing a little bit more on the sales side. And even if -- it's a good momentum, but hopefully even more.

Anders and Filip, always very nice talking to you.

Likewise.

Thank you very much for having us.