Nippon Life India Asset Management Limited (NAMINDIA) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Nippon Life India Asset Management Limited Q4 FY '20 Earnings Conference Call hosted by JM Financial Institution Securities Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sameer Bhise from JM Financial. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Thank you, Rehman. Good evening, everyone. Thank you for joining this call today. From the management side of Nippon Life India Asset Management, we have Mr. Sundeep Sikka, ED and CEO; Mr. Fujikake, Nominee from Nippon Life Insurance; Mr. Prateek Jain, CFO of the company; Mr. Chatterjee, who is the Co-Chief Business Officer, Distribution; Mr. Aashwin Dugal, who is the Co-Chief Business Officer, Institutional; Mr. Saha, Head of Digital Business; and Abhishek from Investor Relations. Without much ado, I'll hand over the call to Mr. Sikka. Over to you, sir.

Good evening, everyone, and welcome to our Q4 FY '20 Earnings Conference Call. We have with us Prateek Jain, Chief Financial Officer; Saugata Chatterjee, Chief Business Officer, Distribution; Aashwin Dugal, Chief Business Officer, Institutional; Arpan Saha, Head of Digital Business; Fujikake-san, Nominee of Nippon Life; and Abhishek. I'm happy to share that post change in principal shareholding in October 2019, NAM-INDIA has grown and has regained its lost market share and investor base. We have seen green shoots with induction of more than 290 new corporate and SME investors who have started investing with us post this transition. The rebranding exercise has been successfully completed and is yielding favorable results. Since September 2019, our mutual fund assets have grown despite a very challenging macro environment. On a monthly average basis, the AUM touched a high of INR 2,210 billion in February 2020 as compared to INR 1,886 billion in September 2019. Owing to COVID-19 crisis and subsequent volatility in the capital markets, Nippon India Mutual Fund fell down in line with the industry by March end, and the quarterly average AUM was INR 2,049 billion. We continue to have one of the largest retail AUM in the industry at INR 444 billion. Our aim is to increase our base of retail investors, especially from B30 locations. The contribution of retail AUM to total AUM is amongst the highest in the industry at 24%. Our SIP folios increased to INR 3.2 billion as on March 2020. The progress highlights of our retail execution capabilities during the challenging period. The annualized SIP book is at INR 97 billion. During the year, the new digital SIP registration grew by 56 -- from -- by 56% and 86% of the incremental SIPs have a tenure of greater than 5 years. We continue to be amongst the leaders in the beyond top 30 cities category. The category contributes an AUM of INR 321 billion, over 17% of the total assets are sourced from these locations against an industry average of 15.6%. As on March 31, 2020, 68% of the individual assets have a vintage of more than 12 months as against 63% as on March 2019. We are the second largest ETF player in the market, having a market share in excess of 16%. In this segment, the AUM rose by 39% to INR 295 billion, excluding the EPFO allocation that goes to 2 PSU on mutual funds, we are the largest ETF player in the country. I'm happy to share that the digital platform contributed 45% of our new purchase transactions. Our investments in digital ecosystem is yielding results. And transactions grew by 31% to 1.4 million over the last financial year. We are ongoing -- we have ongoing tie-ups with 20 prominent digital partners. Nippon India Mutual Fund remains well diversified in terms of distribution with no single distributor contributing more than 5% of the AUMs. We have over 76,200 distributors in panel with us. During the year, we launched Nippon India Digital Innovation, AIF, a fund of fund in technology and venture capital space, which received commitment of approximately USD 100 million from our key investors in Japan. In our offshore business, the assets under management and advisory rose to INR 89 billion. Now on our financial performance. For the quarter ended March 31, 2020, the revenue from operations was INR 2.7 billion, operating expenses decreased by 34% to INR 1.2 billion. Despite a 12% fall in quarterly average AUM in Q4 FY '20, the operating profit remains stable at INR 1.5 billion. On average, overall operating expenses have declined by 10% every year over the last 4 years. As on March 31, 2020, our financial assets are INR 24 billion. Of this, 12% is invested in our own equity schemes, 57% is invested in our debt schemes and 25% in bank FD and tax-free bonds and remaining is in sundry assets. This proportion has remained similar over the last few quarters. The domestic equity markets witnessed extraordinary volatility in March 2020, whereby the benchmark industry declined by 25%, while the mid-cap and small-cap industry declined by 40% to 46% respectively. As a result, there was an unrealized mark-to-market loss in excess of INR 1 billion in Q4. Due to this, the profit before tax decreased to INR 274 million for the quarter ended March 31, 2020. For the year ended March 31, 2020, the profit before tax was INR 5.6 billion. The M2M losses are notional and unrealized. We have already recouped a part of this loss driven by the favorable market condition post March 31. With regard to our response to the COVID-19 crisis, we implemented 100% work-from-home in March 2020. Since then, all business operations, including investor purchase [indiscernible] transactions have been executed without any disruption. On average, over 140,000 purchases were executed through digital mode in March 2020, an increase of 30% over the monthly average for the last -- the previous 11 months. Since March, our sales team as well as the portfolio managers connected with more than 10,000 investors, conducted 80 con calls and webinars. For our distributor partners, we conducted over 135 online learning training sessions and engaged with more than 5,000 partners during this lockdown. A strong risk management framework continues to be bedrock of our business. Over the years, we have built a detailed fund casing framework for every fund within the -- with an in-depth research-driven process and assigned dedicated responsibilities to individual fund managers in line with the fund objective. To strengthen the framework further in these volatile times, the Board decided that -- to make fresh investments in fixed income in only assets, which are AA and above for all mutual fund schemes, except Nippon India Credit Risk and Nippon India Hybrid Bond because of the SEBI categorization. I would again like to reiterate the Board has taken a decision that in fixed income no mutual funds -- all mutual fund schemes will be investing only in AA and above. I'm happy to announce the Board has proposed a final dividend of INR 2 per share. With this, the total dividend for the year is INR 5 per share. In FY '20, we consolidated and grew our business amid unprecedented challenges. Post rebranding in October, we saw the AUM recover on a fast track until February 2020. Despite external hurdles, our operating performance remains strong, driven by retail strength and cost -- and control on cost. We will continue investing in our AIF, ETF and offshore business for future growth opportunities. We are confident towards regaining the lost market share and increasing our profitability in coming quarters. With these comments, we are happy to take any questions. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] We take the first question from the line of [indiscernible].

Yes. Thanks for the opportunity. Am I audible?

Yes, please go ahead, [ Rishabh ].

Yes. Just while going through the income statement, I just came across the other income where you have mentioned that INR 124 crores as a negative figure. If you could please explain the rationale behind it and how much of that has been recovered in the sense that you said something about mark-to-market losses, but if you can please explain it in detail?

Sure. [ Rishabh ], this is Prateek here. [ Rishabh ] See, basically, the company has a net worth of close to about INR 2,900 odd crores, of which predominantly, almost 70% has been invested into our own mutual fund schemes, close to about -- if you take the FDs and the tax-free bonds. If you take all these together, close to about 95% of the money has been of this INR 2,900 crore have been invested into our own schemes, tax-free bonds or fixed deposits. So of the total amount, if you see INR 1,800-odd crores is in our mutual fund, of which, typically, we have been allocating close to about 12% to 18% into our own equity scheme. It is part of our seed capital, also are our treasury investment. Now of the total -- on the equity side, close to about INR 400-odd crores of investment into our ETF schemes and our equity schemes. On the INR 400 crores, if you see from March 1 to March 30, there was an overall decline in the benchmark indices of about 30%. And going by the same thing, we have seen almost about 26% kind of a decline in our -- these portfolio, and that is what Sundeep was alluding to, that these are mark-to-market impact on our team investments. Please note, we do not take any kind of direct exposures into any equity or any other mutual fund's equity schemes. All these investments pertaining to are in our own equity schemes and ETF schemes, which has -- due to this unforeseen black swan kind of an event have declined in terms of M2M value.

Great. Great. Just 1 more follow-up question on this. You said that 26% of the portfolio has declined in the period from March 1 to 31st due to the unprecedented crisis. But if you could give me some figure as to how much of that has been recovered post the recovery that we have seen in the indices?

See, I will tell you, basically, this is a very dynamic figure. And obviously, it then becomes the information for the current quarter. But what they're saying is that is available from our NAVs. Our -- if you see the NAVs of our schemes, where we have invested our available even in public domain. You can do that. But, yes, a significant part of it has been recovered post this 31st of March because market has come up about 20-odd percent.

The next question is from the line of [ Jatin Kumar ] from [ Alpha Capital ].

Sir, my first question would be, if I look at this in mutual fund industry data, April was also degrowth for our AUMs. In terms of equity also, while equity markets have recovered, our equity as well as debts AUM have degrown in April. What would be the reason for that, sir?

I think it's the way -- I think you have to see is, I think it's not that the whole thing has recovered. The fact remains as these have been -- April has also been one of the most turbulent months. so I would not like to comment anything beyond 31st March, right now in this call. But clearly, I think these are, I think, volatile times. I mean, it will always be, I think, where the -- for us, the -- for us, the backbone of our growth is we have today 33.2 million SIPs, and this is the retail flow, which continues. So you will always have HNI money which will come and go and which is more, especially during these volatile times. But from a sticky sets point of view, we are happy that I think we are -- SIPs continue to grow.

Sure, sir. And sir, on a broad base figure, what would be our equity revenue as a percentage -- as in our equity aim, how much that would be contributing to our revenue in terms of total?

Prateek, you want to...

Yes. [ Jatin ], we do not disclose the individual breakup, but let me share with you that in terms of our overall operating revenue, we are -- for the year, we are about 55 basis points. And in terms of the net margin, we are about 27 basis points. So from the last year's, where we're having a net margin of 21 basis points, we have improved our operating profit to about 27 basis points. So despite these challenging times, because of our relentless focus on operating efficiencies, we have to -- we have been able to improve our operating margins.

Sure. Sure. I agree, sir. And my last question would be this employee expenses and other expenses have gone down quite a bit in this quarter. What would be the sustainable run rate for these 2 numbers?

Yes. So we have been -- always been maintaining that our significant part of our salary is variable. We have on record said that 20% to 25% of our salary bill is variable. And obviously, in terms of in the current scenario where the number -- for the financial year, there has been certain reversal or the lowering of our small-term PLI and also the long-term incentives, which has resulted in the almost about INR 30 crores of reduction in terms of quarter on to salary bills.

And other expense, sir?

So in other expenses, if you see -- again, we have been mentioning that there is a reduction of about INR 20-odd crores when you look at a stand-alone basis. Predominantly, it is because we've been working improving our operating efficiency. But this time the large part of it is from the marketing spend and the other discretionary spend. We have been always been maintaining that in the times we can reduce them and control them. And so this quarter, this discretionary spend on marketing and other digital, et cetera, has been lower. And, therefore, this is the number for the -- where we've got -- we saw the INR 20 crores reduction in our other operating expenses.

[Operator Instructions] We take the next question from the line of Anand Trivedi from Nepean Capital.

First question is a clarification. The other income, which has come down from INR 56 crores to INR 112 crores negative. Is that primarily because of equity? Or is there also some debt mark-to-market component in that?

No. See, of course, from an NAV basis, marginally, that would have been the case. But predominantly, it is on our portfolio investments into our own equity scheme and our EPS schemes.

So to answer the question, it's a seed capital, which has been put in equity, mutual funds and ETF. It's...I understand that. The second question is in your expenses. Year-over-year, your fee and commission expenses has come down from INR 56 crores to INR 3 crores. Can you explain why it's come down so much?

Yes. So this is the expenses which industry used to historical pay as upfront commission, which used to amortize in the books, but post the regulation, these expenses are -- upfront brokerage are not allowed, and trade expenses are amortized in this case.

So the 3 is then the more sustainable number. Is that a fair way of looking at this?

Yes, these are the numbers which is pertaining to the unamortized part of the longer duration or close-ended funds and also some part of it is pertaining to the PMS and PIFs in the consolidated one.

The next question is from the line of [ Nikhil Chaudhary ] from [ Akash Ganga ].

My question was with respect to the newspaper article in Feb '20, wherein the regulator has issued an order in our favor in respect of the Reliance Capital dues, so have you reversed the amount of INR 320 crores, which we had provided, like -- I just wanted to get a sense on that.

So I think first, let me share with you. I think as far as the Reliance Capital, there is no exposure of Reliance Capital in the AMC. The financial assets of the industry -- of the AMC, we do not have any exposure to any Reliance group company or any other company other than our own mutual fund schemes. That is number one. Number two, the exposure, which is in some of the schemes, there is -- it's under litigation. I think we will not be able to comment too much about it, but I think we are making significant progress on that.

Okay, sir. Okay. And sir, could you share the Nippon's SIP closure rate, like yesterday, I understand, there was an article where in the SIP closure rate was 70%, 72% for the industry. So if you could share some number in respect of Nippon, like that would be great?

I think broadly for us, we are in line with the industry. We're in line with the industry. Fortunately, I think the only thing because our SIPs are very retail. The stickiness is much more than we have, 80% of our SIPs are greater than 5 years.

The next question is from the line of Haresh Kapoor from IIFL Asset Management.

Sir, just coming back to this other income, if you could just talk about the absolute value of impact and the normalized other income, excluding the M2M rate, what would that number be for the quarter?

Prateek?

Yes. So if you see -- in terms of the normalized income, if you -- this is close to about INR 140-odd crores of mark-to-market income and the rest is the other income, which we have -- because see you have to see even the debt schemes, while there is no impact on that, but the debt schemes are also construed as NPM only.

No. So my question is, so in the presentation, it mentions about INR 1 billion. My question is what is the exact value of M2M hit for your Q4 quarter. So if you could just give that number?

Yes. So...

Absolute M2M hit for the quarter.

Yes, absolute M2M hit is close to about INR 149 odd crore, lies there about.

Okay. So basically, if your quarter-on-quarter, INR 57 crores in Q3 would have more or less been like your approximately INR 27 crores or so for this quarter, the normal as other income?

Yes.

Is that right?

Yes.

Okay. And so sir, this -- so that's other income. The second question just around this -- the cost front. So obviously, you mentioned the key reasons for that. But going ahead, how do you look at for the quarterly run rate in terms of the other expenses because, as you rightly mentioned, it's also a discretion. But markets are where they are, we might need some push on the marketing front too to kind of get our brand to the clients. So we have reduced in Q4, but how do we look at it immediate quarter or Q1, Q2, where we might need some push on that front too?

Yes. So see, Haresh, if you see consistently, we've been clocking in the range of INR 150 crores thereabout. And importantly, we have also been -- if you've seen in the last 3 years, and it is part of the presentation also, our other expenses have been significantly coming down. So I think we will be definitely -- be, I would say, the north of INR 150 crores per quarter in terms of the overall expenses -- other expenses.

And just to add to it, we are not trying to cut any cost, which will have impact on a long-term growth. I think the discretionary cost that we're talking of. So we keep investing into digital because I think -- and the cost-cutting that is coming is also the fact that today when 50% of your transactions are coming through digital, I think the cost -- operational cost is also coming down. So I want to just assure you that I think from our point of view, we will have -- we will be closely looking at all discretionary costs, but we will not be cutting any cost which can impact the future growth of the company.

Yes. I just want to reconfirm. So did Mr. Prateek just say that going ahead, it will be INR 150 crore run rate. So there is INR 112 crores, INR 113 crores because INR 150 crore on a normalized run rate basis, where we will be investing in the business and whatever push it needs, is that right? INR 150 crore is the number, which you gave?

No, see, if you -- again, there are multiple components to it. If you see -- in terms of the other expenses, you have seen that INR 46 crore to INR 60 crore. Obviously, there is a bit of variability in terms of the other expenses on one side. And the other part is -- the other bigger item is our employee benefit expenses, which has been in the range of about INR 75 crores per quarter. Obviously, that was basis the -- as I mentioned, there are variable component to it as well. Now it will all depends how this year pans out. So -- but what I'm saying is that in terms of the steady run rate, it was about INR 150 crores. And given the variability, we can always bring it down depending on how much we have to invest in terms of marketing as well as in terms of the providing for the long-term incentives as in a PLI.

Okay. And next question just around this quarterly revenue run rate. Now obviously, you've had some -- on the total AUM basis has been pretty steady. And you have also started gaining some traction in -- at least in Q4, was on the debt front and some mix change there. But little positive on the AUM front, but approximately 9.5%, 10% down on the revenue side on a quarter-on-quarter basis. So is it just the mix change front? Or is this something more in terms of some yields changing or something on that front too?

No. So, 2 things. One is the predominant part is the mix front. Obviously, the mix has changed in the fixed income side. Most of the duration and the credit where we used to earn slightly more money is now coming to in form of a liquid and very, very ultra short-term kind of a category. Also there, because of the yield compression, we have reduced certain expenses. So basically, that is the predominant reason for that.

And just last thing for this, you spoke about April, in particular, we had pretty decent trajectory in Q4, some of the debt initiatives, some of the liquid initiatives seem to be on a positive note, but can I understand the equity hit that we've had because of M2M. But even in April, we had some impact on the debt side and some of the other impact in AUM. So coming back to that, so is this on a particular segments, as you mentioned, which are seeing that investment and outflow? Or how should we read through because debt momentum was good and in the month of April obviously had some decline. So how should we read-through on that front?

You see, I think the way you have to see this in April. I mean, like I think, again, because we're talking of March results, I don't want to touch too much to April -- about April, but I think just to give an -- you saw a lot of in the industry, there were a lot of events which happened. We being a part of the industry we also get impacted by that. So some of the credit funds we saw the impact because of some industry player -- some event in some industry player. So I will just like to put it. There's nothing specific with any segment. I mean whenever events as big as what happened in April happened in the industry, everybody gets a little bit impacted.

Okay. And no other subcategories or subsegments that we are seeing meaningful hit other than credit funds?

No.

And I would also like to touch this, credit funds for the industry are less than 5% of the...

The next question is from the line of Pritesh Chheda from Lucky Investment Managers.

Yes. Sir, I was a bit confused on the expense line side. So I think when you're referring to INR 600 crores, probably you're referring to total expense, including depreciation number? Because last year's full year expense is about INR 572 million. So I think are you taking that number in consideration? Because when you say that there is variability in expense and employee expense has a variable component and other expenses a variable component, then whatever was your run rate quarterly and what came in the quarter 4, your expense line ideally should then land up between the 2 numbers for FY '21. Is that the interpretation we should make?

Well, we are not into a business of giving guidance, but most of these expenses, as you've seen, and as you rightly pointed out, would be following this kind of trajectory. So obviously, by your -- the way you articulated it, it would be between INR 550 million to INR 600 million.

That's including depreciation, right, because that's the total expense line, I think, you are referring to.

Yes. Yes. Absolute.

Perfect, right?

Yes, that was the problem.

The next question is from the line of [indiscernible] Financial.

A couple of questions on the employee cost. Is it linked to the NAV of the scheme? Or...

No. No. Employee costs are not related to the NAV.

Go ahead. Go ahead, Prateek.

Yes. See employee cost is not linked to the NAV. However, most of the research firms just put across into their research reports the expenses as a percentage of AUMs or rather total expenses as a percentage of AUM. So, otherwise, this is...But Sundeep can dwell on in terms of PLI, how performance is rewarded or underperformance or how PLI are fit. Sundeep, you can add it on that.

I think broadly, it's not linked to NAV, number one. I think it is -- I think it's linked to overall the company performance, individual performance and a team performance. So I think broadly about almost 1/3 of the total compensation is variable for the key people. And it is basically -- that is the discretionary part that we talked about.

Sure. Okay. Okay. And just going on to the expense part on the other expenses, you mentioned that you had lowered the marketing expenses in the quarter. So is it -- so should we link April loss of equity market share versus the industry somewhat to this? Or this is purely because of the NAV and the volatility in the market?

No. I don't think so there's a direct correlation between investing money in 1 month and getting market share in the next month. I think it's a franchise that has been built over 20 years. And I think it is not -- so I think it's -- I would like to, again, maybe this comment has been taken a little differently. We will be looking at discretionary costs, I think. It does not at any time mean we'll stop investing in initiatives, activities and investments, which will help us grow in the future. So at no point of time -- I think the cost-cutting will be -- not be done at the cost of future growth.

Sure, sir. And last question is on the -- what would be the effective tax rate for us?

Yes. So, see, we have chosen to be -- go for the lower tax rate; however, in terms of this NPM losses, which is more of an accounting losses, we do not get any kind of tax breaks. And hence, you see the effective tax rate being -- appearing as higher.

Yes, yes. I got that. But tax rate would be 25%?

Yes. Yes. Yes, it will be 25%. Typically, for us, when in a good scenario where we have other NPM income. And when we realized most of our other income basis, long-term gain, and that is tax at lower rate, and therefore, our effective tax rate will be lower than the maximum marginal rate.

Right. Okay. Sure. And just -- sorry, 1 last question on the INR 2900 crore treasury money that you have invested. If I got it right, is INR 400 crores in equity mutual fund scheme is of our own company? And 57% is debt, and the balance is FD and...

Tax-free bonds.

The next question is from the line of Madhukar Ladha of HDFC Securities.

So first on this other income and your composition of investments. So on Slide 41, you've put out the complete composition. So what is the -- what are these other assets of INR 158 crores approximate?

Yes. So those are actually are in -- one is that these are the trade receivables, and these are -- and specifically, these are our investment into our own AIF and our subsidiaries.

Okay. So even -- so okay, you've included that as well. Trade receivable is also included in this? Or only...

These are the total breakup of our financial -- total financial assets.

Okay. Okay. And trade receivables come under financial assets?

That's right.

Okay. Got it.

Effectively, everything, Madhukar. Whatever is there is within the company and within the mutual fund schemes.

Right. And so can you give a breakup of this mark-to-market loss of roughly INR 150 crores between equity, debt and anything else?

So, frankly speaking, there is 0 -- see, first of all, we have no investments outside of this, okay, of our own scheme, et cetera. And therefore, if you see the entire mark-to-market loss is on our own investments into our equity schemes and ETF schemes.

Understood. But can you like just quantify how much will be equity and ETF and how much will be debt? Because as of March, the equity NPM amount is about INR 281 crores, whereas debt is INR 1,400 crores. Now I mean, even if you take a 30% odd hit on equity, then you are roughly coming to about INR 100 crores sort of a hit number.

So, see, everybody is alluding to get the precise numbers so fed up. See, almost about INR 415 crores was there and which equally divided between -- almost equally divided between the ETF and in our equity scheme. So if you will ask me what is the breakup of INR 280 crores right now, I can give you that because that is a published number. So the INR 280 crores is now INR 147 crores in our equity scheme and INR 133 crores in our ETF scheme.

No, but what is the return on value now, Prateek? I think what actually Madhukar is asking. Before that, the value was roughly about INR 385 crores, type of INR 400 crores roughly, INR 380 crores, INR 400 crores, which effectively 30% comes down to about INR 130 crores negative.

Okay. So that negative number is about INR 130 crores. And the debt is about INR 20-odd crores. So understood. And on the expenses side, what would be given these numbers now for the full year, we have staff cost off -- sorry, I can't -- I don't -- yes, our staff cost is about INR 300 crores, and our other expenses are about INR 221 crores. So what would be -- within these expenses, what percentage would be fixed and what would be discretionary? Can you give a little bit of flavor on that?

As I mentioned earlier, I think in our total fixed salary cost, 1/3 will always be discretionary, which is in the variable pay.

Okay. And in the other expenses?

So other expenses, Madhukar, as you mentioned that close to -- again, it all depends on -- in terms of the fee and brokerage, so these are all variable expenses. And in the years where business unfolds...

Exclude. Exclude. Exclude fee and commission expense.

So that has been in the range of about...

So if you see, that has been in the range of about INR 50-odd crores. So in a good times, where Sundeep is saying that we invest into our discretionary spend is go to INR 60-odd crores. And in a bad time where we want to squeeze it, we can bring it down to about INR 45-odd crores. So you will see this in the range of between that.

Understood. Okay. And 1 final question. You had these phantom stock options at the time of IPO. Has all of that been settled now? Or is there still some mark-to-market pertaining to those in the employee expenses right now? Or is it all closed out?

No. So as I mentioned that the reduction in the salary for this quarter is predominantly part of the 2 things. One is the immediate for the year PLI. And also in terms of -- part is due to the long-term incentive, which is in the form of phantom, the valuation of that. So it is a combination of these 2 things.

Okay. Okay. So when do all the outstanding -- see, right now, we are not issuing any more Phantom. And when do all the phantom stock options get closed. So when do they finally get settled? What is the outer date on that? And yes.

So next financial year -- see, that will complete the 4-year period when it was planned. So next financial year we will get, if not the current one. The next financial year, it will get closed completely.

March '22?

Yes.

Before we take the next question, a reminder to participants to please limit your questions to 2 per participant. The next question is from the line of Viraj Mehta from Equirus Portfolio Management.

Yes, my questions have been answered.

We move to the next question. The next question is from Kunal Shah from Carnelian Asset Management.

Most of the questions have been answered. Just 2 questions. In the quarter, the fee and commission expense has increased from INR 12 crores to INR 19 crores. If I understand correctly, these expenses are the ones which were prepared before those circular came in, which -- where all these expenses have to be debited directly to the schemes. So any reason why this has gone up from INR 12 crores to INR 19 crores. And what is the pending amount going ahead, which would be debited in the next financial year? That is the first question.

Okay. Sorry. Yes, second -- put your second question as well.

The second question was pertaining to -- now we're seeing a flight of safety, where a lot of money be it liquid or debt moving to probably say banks, which have got AMC houses, right? And also, as far as the equity schemes go, it is more a kind of a link to the performance of the schemes where it gets pushed by IFAs. Now looking at both the scenarios, where probably we don't have a bank as a channel partner, right? And Nippon is new when it comes to branding as it was earlier known as Reliance. And also on the backdrop of equity schemes having a lackluster time. What is the feedback that we get from IFAs when it comes to getting incremental business?

So I will take -- I think, firstly, I think I'd like to highlight the fact, I think, yes, we've not been a part of the bank. We're not a bank-sponsored sub-management company. And we do not take that at any -- at any point of time, I mean, that has a disadvantage. I think we are today supported by all banks, and our biggest trends have been the IFAs. So I think I do not see that, I think, being a part of the bank gives you extra advantage or does not give you not having it because as long as you have a well-diversified distribution mix, the sigma of that put together takes care of it. That is number one. Number two, I think the question of whether investors will now move to bank sponsored for safety, I don't think so. I think that is not the case. I think today every company comes from the -- I think it's more to do with the institution, which is backing it. Today, I think we clearly see, especially the HNI, the institutional investors clearly see Nippon as a Fortune 500 company. And the kind of response we are getting from these investors post the main change has been very, very positive. Coming to performance -- coming -- flows coming to few schemes. Yes, we had some schemes, which have not been doing well. But at the same time, we've had a couple of equity schemes, which have been doing very well; the value fund, the growth fund and some other funds. And we have been seeing good flows coming into it. Having said that, our long-term approach will be that we'll be working on consistent -- consistency of the performance of the schemes rather than being in the top 3 because we believe that is not a top 1 or 2 because that type of performance is not sustainable from a long-term point of view. So the way you have seen we have done in fixed income. I think we are one of the first asset management companies to put out with a formal distinguish board policy that we will not be growing below AA. I think we are moving more towards a conservative approach in fixed income and consistency in equity.

In terms of your first question, if you see 2 set of par results. One is the standalone. There, this fee and commission expenses have come down from INR 7 crores to INR 3 crores. While when you look at the consol basis, it has gone up from INR 11 crores to INR 19 crores. The reason for that consol fee and expenses going up is because in the fourth quarter we did -- were able to manage to raise assets in our AIF business for our equity business. So -- and therefore, there is an upfront commission that's payable. And due to that effect, the expenses are higher.

The next question is from the line of Jignesh Shial from Emkay Global.

Just 2 quick questions. One, how is the trend happening right now on the -- this is not about March, but post this quarter [indiscernible] trouble on the net fund side. So how is the flow happening on the net fund side right now in this quarter? Just a flavor, not the number. And number two, now, look post COVID can give you some remorse -- some sense over how we're thinking about the distribution side, how changes would be happening to reach the end target in this kind of lockdowns or this kind of social distancing continuing. So any strategy was there that how you guys are planning to reach to the end customer more easily or more digitally. Any platform has been developed or not? If you will give some sense over this, that would be really helpful.

Let me take the first one on the fixed income. I think clearly -- I think because of some of the events which have happened in the industry, we have seen the flows which are coming in, I think they have been moving away from credit funds and have been moving more towards the high-quality and lower duration, you see? We have seen good flows in some of our schemes like Nivesh Lakshya, which are more to do with, which are -- and the [indiscernible] funds. So there's clearly a change in -- which we have seen. But having said that, is this going to be a long-term trend? It's very difficult to comment at this point of time because this has just happened very recently, and many times these kind of change in behavior may be temporary or may be permanent, only I think we will come to know after a couple of quarters. Coming back to distribution, we are very happy and proud of the digital capability that we built up over the last 5 years. The fact that I think we've been in this lockdown for such a long time, we still, I think, have been doing roughly about 10,000 investor -- subscriptions per working day without offices being open. We are doing roughly 1 incremental SIP every 20 seconds through our digital properties. So I think 1 good thing is I think the -- whatever investments we had done in our digital properties has -- is showing results. Clearly, we will see more and more digital happening. But I'm also -- I think the way I see is, I think once things come back to normal, whether it's going to be in 3 months, 6 months, I think, nobody can -- nobody knows that, I think. In financial services, there will always be a set of people who would like to physically come to the branches, let to deal with the distributors. And everything cannot move digital. So what is happening right now, I think while it is a big advantage for us because of the investments in digital, which we have done. But it is not that the branches will close. It will not happen that the people will not come -- the distributors will not be having a face-to-face interaction. So I think we need to see how things play. I think it's always -- I think you have to always keep diversifying and keep building and investing for future. So I think we are happy today, both whether it's a physical or digital. I think we are ready on both the fronts.

Understood. Understood. And just confirming it, the absolute loss number that is given for the other income part had been INR 149 crores. Is that number correct?

No, no, the overall number for the quarter is INR 125 crores on a consol basis.

It is just that the question was asked that look if you have earned other incomes, what is the total MTM? So while the quarter number is as much, but we would have definitely accrued other incomes in our FD and tax-free bonds, et cetera. And therefore, the question was on overall MTM will be how much?

Understood. And since market has already recovered in the month of April and May, we will see the reversal happening in this quarter or wait for it and all?

See this quarter is still a long way to go. And let's say, if market grows up, significantly from here, the entire could be recovered or if it -- obviously, it is very difficult to predict from our side. But of course, all those investments which we have made, we have not realized these losses. So obviously, these will be subject to MTM effect.

The next question is from the line of [ Aadesh Mehta ] from Motilal Oswal Asset Management.

Sir, we have seen a very sharp drop in other expense from around INR 60-odd crores to INR 40-odd crores and so how should we read this trend? Should we conclude that we have exhausted all legal in this plan item and this should be the new normal? Or you have further levers to reduce this?

See, obviously, we are working towards more and more automation, more and more efficiencies. So I don't think we have exhausted all of it. Yes, increase mentally the delta from here will not be significant. And therefore, while we don't give any guidance, I mentioned that it would be in the range of about INR 45 crores to INR 60 crore, where we have the liberty of discretionary spend depending how the market conditions are. But yes, despite of that INR 45 crores, we still can definitely bring in some small savings by improving the efficiencies.

Right. Right. And sir, we also hold some asset management rights of around INR 240-odd crores on our balance sheet, right? So, any write-off provision provided on that this year?

No. See, we've got this external valuation done. And at this point of time, the carrying value is lower than the valuation carried out by the independent agency, and hence, does not require any kind of write-down.

Okay. Okay. And sir, last question from my side. This INR 1,400 crores of debt exposure you have, everything is there in the scene. You don't have any exposure directly to bonds or entities, right? Is that fair to...

No. We do not take any kind of bond or direct fixed income exposure or any equity exposures?

The next question is from the line of [indiscernible].

So my first question was given the uncertainties due to COVID-19, what would be the impact on our [indiscernible] from that? And the second question is in terms of market share. When we light it up in terms of the institutional, retail and HNI. So if you could share like what was the market share across these 3 categories in September? And what was it in Feb 2020?

If I got your question, market share between Feb and April, March?

Between September last year and Feb in terms of HNI, retail and institution?

I think broadly to put it very simply, I think we over the last 2 years, let's say, let me break it while you are going 6 months back, I'm going to -- I think the highest market share loss was in institutional investors and HMS. And as we have mentioned, we are already seeing about 290 corporate investors coming back. And along with that, I think we have been seeing good traction coming in from HNIs and even more, especially for a lot of HNIs coming in ETFs also. So I think while I will not right now have the number ready, which I think [ Abhishek ] can share with you off-line. But these are the 2 segments where we can and will see highest growth.

Sir, just to add to what Sundeep said, and most -- as against the industry, our retail contribution to AUM is about 24% and our B30 contribution is about 17.5% as against 15.6% of the industry. And in terms of retail, 24% as against 19% of the industry.

Can the [indiscernible] in terms of offshore mandate a lean makeover given the COVID-19 situation? Any sense of what can we see in terms of next one year in the offshore mandate?

It is, as of now, no, I think the last -- I think since our last quarterly call, there's nothing much to share on that. I think -- but as we mentioned in the last call that I think with as Nippon being the primary shareholder, we will -- we are in the process of leveraging the global network of Nippon to see -- get money into India. Clearly, this is going to be a function of how the overall investors see in there. And so I think from a long-term point of view, we are very confident. I think we will gain market share in this segment, leveraging Nippon's network across the globe.

But just in case if you are interested [indiscernible] equity fund has been in quartile 1 from -- in 1 year category, in 3-year category and in substantial date category. So obviously, fund has been doing well. Obviously, the opportunities come and which is likely that India is likely to grow faster than the rest of the world. In case the money comes in into India, then obviously, this performance will surely help.

The next question is from the line of [ Pavan ] from IFFL.

A couple of questions. Number one is like I want to understand how -- this is a very basic question. I want to understand how the arbitrage funds are classified? Whether they're as equity or debt? Another thing is solution-oriented schools like retirement fund and children's fund and close-ended schemes. Are these classified directly as -- so arbitrage funds classified as equity or debt in the asset classification that you show as average?

Arbitage thing if you were to look at it, I think, is included in the equity segment for data.

Okay, sir. What about the solution-oriented schemes, retirement funds and the children's fund?

What is our equity... Whichever is equity will be for equity-oriented Our interest scales will come in equity whether they are close-ended or a gold-based fund. All these come into equity. So retirement fund, which is an equity fund will come into equity.

Yes. Okay. Sir, second question is related to investment, but not related to the NPM loses. Just wanted to understand the complexes here because you have close to INR 2,400 crores or INR 2,300 crores in terms of investments, cash and FDs. But there is like -- considering the cash flow -- operating cash flow cost and nature of the business, you don't really need that much cash on the balance sheet. Are you considering extraordinary dividends or buybacks, whenever the share price goes below [Indiscernible] estimates?

I will not be able to comment on this. I will let the Board decide this. And I think from our point of view, over the last many years, we've been giving higher dividends. And I think that purposes will continue. But, however, I think that's very difficult to comment on that question at this stage.

The next question is from the line of Mr. Madhukar Ladha from HDFC Securities.

We've been losing a little bit of market share, both on the equity and debt side. And that is a little concerning. So can you talk a little bit about what the thought process is and how you will regain this market share over the next for another couple of years?

So Madhukar, if you were to see, again, like I mentioned, I think from the -- if you were to break down the last full year -- financial year in 3 parts, I'll say, from April to September, nothing [indiscernible] change took place at the Nippon Life, I think. We came from an AUM of INR 2,40,000 monthly AUM to INR 1,82,000. And from there until 1st of March, we moved all the way up to INR 2,20,000 or 20% growth. I think -- so post less than 1 month, I think we have clearly seen, I think, because of the mark-to-market credit events happening, I mean it's more industry phenomenon. But I think the way you need to read it is, I think, clearly, I think, yes, we lost in past I think if you were to look at the last 6 months minus the month of March, I think, you can see the recovery story or to regain market share has already started. Even if you were to see the April data, I think where there is a few basis points, but we are gaining market share. So I think -- I think we are clearly getting our market share back. Having said that, I would like to also highlight the fact, while I think we will keep talking about market share. But as -- from a Board point of view, I think the thought process is to continue focusing on profitable growth and profitability rather than market share. But I'm just trying to -- both the sides, we have been gaining -- I think we are seeing positive response. But for us, if it's between market share and bottom line, I think it would be bottom line.

Right. And just a follow-up. You said that, obviously, we're looking more at profitable growth. But if I do a little bit of a back of the envelope calculation of this quarter's numbers, and I try to derive the yield on equity, I believe that the equity yields have dipped pretty significantly in the fourth quarter. I have also seen the commission sort of disclosures in terms of normal TR minus direct TRs and for the March -- for March, commissions have also increased. So can I get some comment on whether these are -- this is sort of a continuing [indiscernible] high commission payouts?

Madhukar, I'll tell you that, look, what Sundeep mentioned is our strategic intent. Technically, we will keep working on. Our market was not good. We saw that there is an opportunity, our schemes doing well. In some of the schemes, we -- to get the traction back, we might have gone and slightly increased our brokerage structure. But these are all technical intent, and we don't want to discuss this. But strategically, if you see, despite the overall decline in the realization, our operating profit is about -- for the quarter is about 29 basis points. And for the year is about 27 basis points as against 21 basis points last year.

We'll be able to take 1 last question. We take the last question from the line of Mohit Surana from CLSA.

I just wanted your thoughts in terms of -- you said that your digital initiative, et cetera, has held during the lockdown phase. But just from a regulatory point of view of KYC, et cetera and all of that and that you mentioned that the fact that people want to visit branches, et cetera. So I just want to know what has been your experience in terms of daily or weekly account opening rates post-lockdown and pre-lockdown and how do they compare and your comments and thoughts?

I think I will -- while I will not have the exact number and data to share at this point of time. But clearly, the fact that we've been in lockdown, we are doing about 9,000 to 10,000 transactions per day, we are getting incremental investors. See what we have to understand is the digital system, ecosystem is also evolving and maturing, the EKYC. Today, we have come to a point. I mean, it is lot more smoother for and easy for someone to onboard somebody digitally than what it was 1 year back. So I think I would say, I think things are, I think, very positive. Regarding EKYC it is not a challenge anymore the way earlier it used to be. So from the fact that in last year, only it's last year itself, we added [indiscernible] 1.6 lakh only through the digital -- on the digital properties. So I think it is evolving. I think we remain positive on this.

Thank you very much. We'll take that as the last question. I would now like to hand the conference back to the management team for closing comments.

Thanks a lot, everyone. I think thanks for being on the call Saturday [ Friday ] evening, so late, and hope to talk to you all again after the Q1 results in June. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. On behalf of JM Financial, that concludes the conference.

Thank you for joining us, ladies and gentlemen. You may now disconnect your lines.