NKT A/S (NKT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the NKT Update of medium-term financial ambitions webcast and conference call. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your first speaker today, Claes Westerlind, President and CEO. Please go ahead, sir.

Thank you, and good morning, everyone, and welcome to this conference call following our release of the updated medium-term financial ambitions yesterday. I'm Claes Westerlind, the CEO, and with me for today's call is our CFO, Line Fandrup. We will together go through a short presentation where we will explain the drivers behind the update. And at the end, we will also open up for a Q&A. Before we begin, I will, as usual, ask you to take close attention to this disclaimer and slide as the presentation -- and our presentation may contain forward-looking statements. Now let's move into the next slide and to the key messages. Let me start by saying that NKT continues to successfully execute on our ReNew BOOST strategy and our strategic direction is unchanged. We are now proud to update our medium-term financial ambitions for 2028 to reflect our announced investments and the development of the high-voltage order backlog since they were last updated in 2023. Therefore, our financial ambitions for 2028 are now organic revenue growth CAGR from '21 to '28 of more than 14%, operational EBITDA of more than EUR 700 million, return on capital employed of more than 20%. Our previous ambitions for '25 are expected to be achieved already this year, 1 year ahead of time and the specific outlook for '25 will be communicated with the announcement of the '24 annual report in February. The execution of the ongoing investment program in Karlskrona to expand high-voltage capacity and capabilities has full attention. And as the program has progressed, we have identified additional opportunities and choices, risks and general cost inflation. As a result of this, the total cost of the expansion is expected to increase by EUR 300 million, but the investment remains accretive to the financial ambition of RoCE above 20%. The time line is unchanged, and the new factory will be operational from 2027. Lastly, we are providing additional information into the development over the coming years as we announced that we expect accumulated CapEx over the period '25, '28 to amount to around EUR 2 billion. These investments will support NKT's value creation and enhance our market opportunities, and they are split between growth and maintenance investments as Line will elaborate on further in a moment. Let me end this slide by also saying that 2028 does not represent a steady-state situation for the business, meaning that part of the earning effects or in other words, value creation from the EUR 2 billion accumulated CapEx spend is to be realized beyond 2028. In May 2023, we updated our medium-term financial ambitions. It was in connection with the announcements of the investment in high voltage capacity and capability in Karlskrona and also the capital increase. During 2024, we have announced several additional investments across our business lines, and we have completed the acquisition of SolidAl in Portugal. All of these investments are expected to contribute positively to the financial performance in 2028 and beyond. In addition, our earnings visibility for the coming years has improved with the increase in high-voltage order backlog. To reflect this development, we have updated our ambitions for 2028. We have, during the last couple of months, conducted a bottom-up process with our business lines to ensure the quality behind these ambitions and also the accountability throughout our organization. The structural industry trends we have seen during the last years are expected to continue and the electrification of societies and transition to renewable energy will continue to drive robust demand for power cables and solutions. As a pure-play cable solutions provider, we are well positioned to benefit from this development, and our updated ambitions reflects our ability to create value in this environment. When looking towards 2028, the ambitions are, as you would expect, based on several assumptions. At this point in time, the most critical include continued supportive market demand, stable development in global economies, satisfactory execution of both high- and medium-voltage investments as well as satisfactory execution of the high-voltage order backlog to ensure the expected profitability margins. When we back in May 2023, announced the medium-term financial ambitions for '28, we expressed ambitions both for '25 and '28. As the 2025 ambitions are expected to be achieved already here in 2024, a year ahead of time and as the outlook for 2025, as I said before, will be announced in February with our annual report, the 2025 ambitions are not updated. The 2028 ambitions for organic revenue growth CAGR and operational EBITDA are updated, while the ambition for RoCE is maintained. The organic revenue growth CAGR from '21 to '28 is now expected to be above 14% compared to the previously above 12%. For operational EBITDA, we now expect to be above EUR 700 million compared to previously EUR 550 million. All in all, and including the expected investments during the period, we still expect RoCE in '28 to be above 20%. And let me again reiterate what I said earlier, 2028 does not represent the steady-state situation for the business, meaning that part of the earning effects from the EUR 2 billion accumulated CapEx spend is to be realized beyond '28. The main drivers behind the high growth and operational EBITDA are positive contributions from the announced investments across our solutions and application business lines as well as the completed acquisition of SolidAl, and the investments on site in Portugal. With the high-voltage orders we have secured since the spring of last year, we have also an improved earnings visibility, which is also reflected in these numbers. And we are, therefore, proud to be able to announce these ambitions to support the continued value creation of NKT. With the ongoing investment program in Karlskrona, we are essentially constructing a new high-voltage factory next to our existing facility and thereby turning Karlskrona into the world's largest high-voltage offshore cable production site. It will improve our abilities to meet the growing demand for specialty long-length HVDC power cable solutions. And currently, we are in the middle of a heavy construction phase. And as an example, the slipform casting of the exclusion tower was completed during November when also the tower then reached its final height of 200 meters. It goes without saying that executing a construction project of this size is complex, and it's evolving during the execution phase. As you can imagine, we have and are constantly managing many moving parts of the project. And as the investment program has progressed, we have identified opportunities and choices to be drawn upon. After careful evaluation, we have decided to spend more to get more, so to say. And as an example, we have decided to invest in additional even more capable testing facilities for longer lengths. While we cannot share all the details and changes here, but the opportunities are related to the overall versatility, efficiency and also long-term competitiveness of the new production facilities. In addition, we have also seen general cost inflation and also specific cost increases in certain areas due to risks materializing. In a project like this, you have to balance several dimensions, including but not limited to time, quality and cost. And we have not and are not willing to compromise on, for example, time line and quality. And as such, if we are forced to make compromises, this is more likely than to impact cost. We have previously shared some details and examples on how we needed to spend additional costs preparing, for example, the foundation of the tower when relating to soil conditions. And this is a good example of what can happen during such projects. Now with the above said, the total investments related to this program are expected to increase by approximately EUR 300 million. At the same time, we would like to confirm that we are on schedule, meaning that the new factory is expected to be operational in '27 as was the case before. And last but not least, taking everything into consideration, the investment program in Karlskrona remains accretive to our medium-term ambitions over RoCE above 20%, and it remains paramount in our growth journey and in our opinion, also for the cable industry as a whole. The construction of our second cable-laying vessel, NKT Eleonora, remains on track, both from a cost and also time perspective. With this, ladies and gentlemen, I concluded my part of the presentation, and I will now hand over the word to Line to walk you through the CapEx development and also the capital structure.

Thank you, Claes. So besides updating the medium-term financial ambitions for 2028, we also wanted to share insights on the expected investment level for the same period. This is to give you insight and to understand the financial development ahead of us. As Claes said, we expect accumulated CapEX for 2025 to 2028 to amount to around EUR 1 -- EUR 2 billion. This will mainly be driven by our high voltage investment in Karlskrona, including the vessel in Cologne and in the applications investments in Denmark, Sweden, the Czech Republic and Portugal. All these investments are seen as growth investments, and they will, together with other growth investments, constitute around 75% of the accumulated investments. The rest, 25% is repair and maintenance of existing assets, IT infrastructure and our technology base. To the right of the slide, we show an indication of how you can think about the yearly distribution of the investment. It's important to say that this is indicative and there can be fluctuations between the years. Not all spend is fully locked into a given year. You should expect a step up in CapEx going into 2025 compared to how we'll close out 2024. And we do expect that 2025 will be the highest level of CapEx. 2026 will be lower than 2025, but will still be higher than 2024. And we'll start to take the assets into operation during 2027, where the CapEx level will also come somewhat down. CapEx is expected to come down in 2028 even further and eventually will come to a more normalized level with a new factory layout and with the repair and maintenance at that point. Investments will support our financial ambitions of a RoCE above 20% in 2028. As some of the investments are expected to occur later in the period and support future earnings, the full effect on RoCE is expected beyond 2028. Flipping to the next slide, commenting here on our capital structure. A robust capital structure is the prerequisite for NKT given our large project business. Therefore, we maintain the target of a financial leverage below 0x EBITDA. With a net cash position, we ensure the required financial flexibility to invest in the growth just mentioned, and making sure that we have access to the needed project guarantees as well as the financial instruments for hedging commodity and currency exposure. Also, it's important that we, as a project business, can cater for eventual swings in our net working capital position as well as potential risk on the projects. We have a dividend policy stating that we will pay out 1/3 of the net result in dividends if the capital structure allows this. Right now, we're investing in the business to support future growth and value creation. And as long as we're executing on these investment opportunities, we should not expect dividend payouts. Before we open up for Q&A, let me just reiterate the key messages that Claes highlighted at the beginning of the call. Based on our expected contribution for the announced investments, and the acquisition of SolidAl as well as improved earning visibility as the high-voltage order backlog has increased and been firmed up by recent awards, we are updating our medium-term financial ambitions for 2028. They now stand at an organic revenue growth on a CAGR from 21% to 28% of more than 14%. Operational EBITDA of more than EUR 700 million and a return on capital employed of more than 20%. We are also providing an update on the high-voltage investment program in Karlskrona and the total investments related to this program are expected to increase by EUR 300 million due to the mix of increased scope and design of the factory as well as general cost inflation. The time line is unchanged and the new assets will be operational from 2027. Thirdly, we're providing insights into our total investment for the period up to '28, where we expect an accumulated CapEx to amount to around EUR 2 billion. These investments will enhance NKT's future business opportunities and support the medium-term financial ambition of a RoCE of more than 20% with the full effect to be seen beyond 2028. With this, we have concluded the presentation and will hand over the word to the operator for the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] And your first question comes from the line of Akash Gupta from JPMorgan.

Yes. I got a few questions, and I'll ask one at a time. My first one is on phasing of earnings growth. You're targeting more than EUR 700 million for 2028. And this year, we have top end of the guidance range slightly below EUR 350 million. So essentially, you will be doubling your EBITDA or more than doubling your EBITDA in the next 4 years. Can you give us some input on how shall we think about phasing of this growth? Again, we have a solution where it may be more back-end loaded. But then when we look at your investment in applications, how shall we think about the progress there? So the first question is any comment you can make on the phasing of this EUR 700 million plus EBITDA?

Thank you, Akash, for the question. Line here. So I think we -- I will go a little bit backwards in terms of some elements we already shared, not changing at this point in time. When we entered 2024, there were 2 important points we gave you. One was that in 2024, we have a large subcontracted scope related to the execution of the Champlain project. And that will fall away in 2025. Further, we elaborated that the underlying factories, the machine now that actually eventually defines the capacity on the solution factories will be the same in '24 and the years ahead until we actually take into use the new factory. And this means that these 2 mix effects combined with, of course, any potential mix changes to the project that we execute will define the years ahead now. When you then look at the earnings for the Solutions business, you also see there's a cost load on '24 that will continue into '25 and the years ahead of ramping up FTEs for the future expenses. So overall, this -- in our numbers and how to try and help you model this is that it would be some years where you won't see a big take-up from -- on the earnings for Solutions until we actually get to a place where we get the new factory into use. I'm not guiding for '25, so just giving you kind of an idea about this. When you look at Applications, it is so that an investment program we announced in January, it's on 3 different sites. And those sites are different in pace of the actual investment program. One of the sites is going to have some contribution on earnings already in '25, where the other sites will come on sequentially and closer to '27. It's the same for the Cologne expansion also coming online closer to 2027. So overall, it's some years with a little bit of uptick, but eventually getting to '27 before you say something that will then pave the way into 2028 and the doubling of the EBITDA, as you mentioned.

And my second question is on your choice of keeping the medium-term targets for 2028. I mean, clearly, since the last time you gave us 2028 targets, you have increased CapEx quite substantially. And as we read in your commentary, your prepared remarks, not all the benefits would be seen before 2028. So why not giving a later year target and replacing '28 with maybe '29 or 2030? Maybe just some comments on why did you kept 2028 targets despite not seeing the full benefit of these new investments by that time line?

Thank you, Akash, Claes here. And I think it's a very relevant question. And I think you could argue that we should have maybe provided a longer view to '29 or maybe 2030. I think if we would have done that, I think the situation would have been the same that we would also be requested to provide a difference in '28. So we had a choice to make, and we made a choice towards '28, also considering that we have for the moment a strategy process ongoing, where we also want to make a longer-term reflection towards 2030 and beyond, and therefore, not to provide the view at that point in time. But rather than the comments around the fact that the full earnings potential are not reflected in '28, but a little bit thereafter.

And my final one is on what would be the normalized depreciation and amortization we should expect after these investment plans are over? And maybe just a follow-up to that. Is it fair to expect that this base CapEx could be more like more than EUR 100 million post 2028? Or do you see the base CapEx is going below EUR 100 million after 2028?

I think, Akash, on the D&A, there's still refinement to be done and also on the EUR 200 million growth investments when everything will be ready and coming online, some of that will be later. So allow me to come back with a bit more insight to the D&A at a later point. And in terms of the base CapEx of the repair and maintenance, sorry, how you should look at it is, it's EUR 500 million on average over the next 4 years. It's going to step up gradually because our factory footprint is getting larger and thereby, more repair and maintenance needed. So comparing '25 to '28, we're going to be at the higher level in '28. Let's -- '28 is not a year of just repair and maintenance. We're still having the tail of investments and some of these later investments. So I think you shouldn't just do EUR 500 million divided by 4, and then put that single number into '28. It's going to be a higher number.

Your next question comes from the line of Lars Topholm from Carnegie.

Yes, a couple of questions from me also. In the announcement, you among other things mentioned additional risks in Karlskrona. I just wonder, Claes, maybe you can put some words on what those risks are?

Absolutely. Yes, as I also said in the earlier presentation, these projects, of course, always entail quite a bit of risks. The risks, the way we work with them actively is both on an identification stage, of course, ahead of the project, but also during the project, but then also actively working on trying to mitigate the risks to not make them materialize and fall out as cost increases. And what I meant what I said before is that some of the risks that we have seen and identified along the way has now indeed materialized into actual cost increases. So meaning that we were not fully successful in removing them and successfully mitigating them. And I took the example of soil risk, which is an obvious risk, which is always there. And that when we -- and I took the tower as an example, also in the previous quarters, where we -- despite acoustic radar measurements, despite soil drillings to find the bedrock, we were surprised by a fragment of bedrock, and then the solid bedrock was much further down, which led to excessive piling to make the ground robust enough for the buildings up on top. And of course, this has -- it could have had a time impact and it for sure had a cost impact. The good news is that we confirm that we are on track from a time perspective. So we've been able to manage the time element, but we have not been able to fully absorb the cost for excessive piling. There's also other risks whereby you have, for example, uncertainties, how big needs the building to be able to fit electrical equipment or machines. And then as you go through the project and you do the final layouts, you -- in some cases, we have also found that the buildings would have had to be extended to a certain extent, in the end, driving additional cost and potentially additional time, but the latter parts of the time length, we have been managed or successfully have been managing that towards the project time line. So I hope that, that clarifies a little bit, Lars.

Yes, it does clear. Much appreciated. Then maybe a follow-up question in that context. So between now and 2027, what is the risk you encounter, other cases of new risks or increased risks you need to handle and/or general cost inflation that will make this even more expensive? Is it locked in CapEx-wise in any shape or form?

I think that's also a highly relevant question, I'm happy you asked it because I also want to clarify perhaps one thing. As we went into this project, we had, of course, also risk and contingency in the calculation as such. And it could be worth clarifying that it's not so now that we have consumed all risk and contingency and that we are at basically an expected cost to complete. But what we have done is, of course, as in analogy with what I have said before, we have been needing to spend more money for certain aspects. We have made some choices, which have made the project more expensive. But we have also, after 1.5 years into the project, made a detailed risk assessment throughout the clusters. And when I speak about clusters, it's different areas of this project. So we've done a bottom-up risk assessment. And from that risk assessment, we also have risk and contingency as part of the now one plus 300 million, the EUR 1.3 billion calculation, which is expected to be able to cover for the risks that we currently see and the contingency, of course, for the risks and topics that we are -- maybe not seeing for the moment, but that could come up going forward. But now with that said and to your point, Lars, of course, it is a project. And of course, things can happen over and beyond our imagination as I think also the current situation and today's announcement tells you. But I would also like to add that we are much, much wiser today than where we were 1.5 years ago. We are well into the project. We are well into the situation of soil conditions as an example. We have made a number of very important commitments towards our machine suppliers. And we have -- we are much further along as far as the detailed design drawings goes around buildings and the overall setup of the project. So with that, we feel today comfortable with that. The revised budget will also be adequate to cover for the completion of this project. But we stay humble for the fact that there are projects, and we have to focus on being diligent every day from now and until 2027.

Your next question comes from the line of Casper Blom from Danske Bank.

A few ones from my side as well. I would like to ask you about your Applications business. I suppose sort of from -- in contrast to Solutions, you don't have the same kind of backlog in applications as you do in Solutions. So could you elaborate to any degree sort of what you have built into your updated ambitions with regards to the Applications division developing? Are you, for example, expecting further margin expansion compared to where we are today? And are you seeing applications growth that is higher or lower than the 14% of CAGR that you have guided for the group?

Yes. Thank you, Casper. Yes, while we are not guiding here on business line specifics, so I will have to keep my answer a little bit general. But I would draw your attention to, I think, the slide which we showed earlier, which also stipulated some conditions around the outlook that we are doing for the moment. And that also included the market situation remaining stable and also favorable in order for us to realize the current ambitions. And if I just reflect on the Power Distribution segment, which is an important part of the Applications business line, as you're well aware, this has been developing in a positive manner for the last 1 to 2 years. And we expect also in line with the megatrends that we also commented upon in the presentation that, that will continue to stay favorable. And as far as the Construction segment goes, this is something which has been depressed and still is depressed. And I think what we are at least seeing out there is that a turn may come during next year in that market segment. Maybe overall, I think when we look into 2028, I would say that we expect all business lines to contribute with a double-digit percentage EBITDA margin. I hope that's at least partly answering your question, Casper.

Well, it's part of the way at least. Then a second one to the Solutions business, please. When you sort of stack up your bottom analysis and get to your revenue forecast or revenue guidance, and then you look at the Solutions business, how well covered do you see that expectation being for '27, '28, i.e., can you reach your revenue expectation without taking in any material additional high-voltage orders?

Also a highly relevant question. I think, again, I draw your attention to the conditions, which are also stipulating a healthy supply-demand balance being maintained there and -- or market demand supporting continued favorable supply-demand balance outlook and also ensure further high-voltage product awards. So I think those 2 conditions are there. That doesn't fully answer your question. And here, I want to be careful for reasons that I've also mentioned before. From an investor perspective, we wouldn't have much of a problem. Rather the opposite will be an upside for us to communicate what coverage we have for what year, but we want to be very careful from a competitive aspect to ensure that competition remains in any and all pursuits. So I think I will stay at that we need some more order intake, but it's not significant. I will maybe be able to say that at least. So we have a good coverage and earnings visibility towards 2028.

Okay. Can you give any kind of indication as to how much additional capacity for revenue in Solutions you will have after '28?

I don't think we can. I mean, we are not guiding now over and beyond '28. So I think, unfortunately, we will -- I think we will struggle to give such an indication. I'm looking at Line here.

Yes. And I'm just wondering, Casper, because, of course, in years beyond '28, eventually, we have capacity. So, it's very much about when does the customer need a certain project delivery and our ability to what have we locked up already on utilization in '29, 2030 and even beyond. But I guess this is given, so maybe your angle to the question is different than that.

And also,, let me just maybe add there that I think, Casper, just so you're well aware in '28, the capacity will, in theory, be online, but it takes time to fill the complete flows of the new capacity. And with capacity, I mean everything from feeding factory with copper and aluminum in the beginning to the ultimate installation by means of the cable lay vessel and the trenching occurring on the sea bottom and that is throughout the chain. So it's that journey of filling the assets from a descent with work that will then generate the revenues. So it's not additional capacity that will come online in '29, so to speak. That capacity will be online, but we are slowly progressing and also filling it up.

Then we will eagerly await any guidance for '29, 2030.

Your next question comes from the line of Claus Almer from Nordea.

Yes. Also a few questions from my side. A bit more on this CapEx and revenue potential. So you're now guiding minimum 14% revenue growth until 2028. But in theory, based on what you have announced yesterday, how good could it be if you just could sign all the orders that could fill your capacity? That will be the first one.

Yes. I think it's a little bit back to the question Lars just asked that we have a lot of visibility to the backlog we will execute on eventually up on to '28 for the Solutions business. So it's not a fully fixed number, but of course, there are some limitations to that. Then we have both the Application and the Service & Accessories. And for Application, you can say for the shorter years here, we have a good understanding of markets and our capacities. For the longer years, there is, of course, the question mark how markets eventually -- going to develop eventually within the medium voltage space. So really the grid infrastructure strengthening expansion can, of course, also move faster or some price different than what we have assumed here. And then also just making the note that you probably already all figured out that it's organic growth we are guiding on here, meaning also that the SolidAl contribution is on top. Last note also......

Sure. So my question is a little bit different. So who knows how the market or demand will develop until 2028. But it was more about what is the revenue capacity you are building with these CapEx plans you announced yesterday and before. So how much -- how good could it be? So minimum 14% revenue growth, could it be 20%, more trying to figure out how much capacity are you actually adding?

Okay. Because -- yes, so I was answering on how much more than 14%. But I think the question you are asking, which we do understand that's very much eventually close to what is the volume generation out of our factories, which is a thing we don't share because then it's very easy to map out NKT's full capacity and understand what is our utilization and eventually how could any kind of pricing out there be set. So I think this exact question, we don't answer in detail now.

Okay. So then a second question, again, regarding CapEx. So yesterday's announcement adding these extra CapEx investments, what is actually the main driver behind this decision? Is it discussions with your customers that they can see an even stronger need for capacity? Or what is actually the main driver for spending EUR 2 billion over the next years?

Thank you, Claus. So let me start answering this one. So when you refer to the extra CapEx, just -- so I will frame on what I will answer to. And then I will -- if you look at the EUR 300 million additional CapEx for the project in Karlskrona, I will divide that into 3 different buckets. First, you have general cost inflation. So we are building things as we were planning in the beginning, only that it got more expensive due to different reasons. And this could be energy, it could be labor, it can be material, et cetera, that is causing cost increases. Secondly, there are risks, and there I refer to the answer I provided to Lars, which have also caused the cost to increase. And lastly, there are additional choices that we have made. And this includes, for example, testing facilities that we have also mentioned earlier. And out of the EUR 300 million, around about EUR 100 million is attributable to the last bucket. And I think this is partly what you're asking. On top of that, we have the EUR 200 million additional CapEx, if you were stacking up the EUR 2 billion, which is for undefined and future projects, which we have either yet not decided upon or not yet disclosed because of the materiality level. And here, we will be unable to go into all level of detail. But what I would say about that is that this is to further strengthen our competitiveness and our abilities across the business, but primarily within the Solutions segment. And we have taken an example that one aspect that you could think about, which has not been so big to be discussed is the fact that we have been growing our ability within the installation sphere in recent years with more burial tools and also more ancillary equipment around installation. And this is also a journey that we expect to continue. Ultimately, we believe that this will help us to create further value, but also it is very much also a risk management approach from our side. So does that make sense, Claus? Does it give any clarity?

Yes, I guess it makes sense, but it's very difficult to really try to quantify and figure out what these investments, how that is going through your P&L and how that is creating extra revenue and profitability. So maybe to ask in a different way, your revenue growth going up from minimum 12% to minimum 14%. So these 2 percentage points, are that linked to this extra CapEx? Or it is more you being more precise on the opportunities you see in your, let's call it, pipeline and backlog?

I think the extra revenue that you're seeing on top of the 12% is linked to an accumulated different number of things. It's linked to the order intakes that we have had now for the last 1.5 years and the pricing of the same. It's linked to the investments in Cologne. It's linked to the investments in Applications, both across the 3 plants, but also in the SolidAl perimeter. And it's only to a lesser extent, but still some to the additional EUR 200 million on top of the EUR 1.8 billion. So I wouldn't be able to give you the breakdown there. But yes, to a certain extent, there is a link there. But I also refer to what we said before that the unfortunate thing is that we are showing you the full CapEx numbers from '25 to '28, but we are unable today to show you the full value creation of the same because part of that comes after '28.

Fair enough. And then just last question. So you're keeping your minimum 20% RoCE target, which is an open-ended number. Based on this CapEx, is your internal number unchanged? Or is it actually lower, but you were just so much above 20%, so you can keep the 20% target?

Yes. Claus, I understand the question and then refrain from giving an upper or lower. I think we're maintaining this RoCE because in the mix contribution of increasing capital employed due to the investment programs, but also improved earnings as shared, we are still above 20%. And that's with eventually the ambition of NKT out into 2028.

And just before we go to the next question, I just also want to add on the additional EUR 200 million that we will only decide upon such investments so long as these will be supportive of our 20% -- more than 20% RoCE target. So I just want to add that clarification here as well.

[Operator Instructions] And your next question comes from the line of Xin Wang from Barclays.

I wonder if we can get maybe a little bit color on this EUR 300 million CapEx expansion again. Is it actually increasing capacity at all only on competencies that you talked about? And how much of this is cost overall?

Yes. Thank you for the question. I would partly refer to my explanation before on the 3 different buckets and then the division of that EUR 300 million into the various buckets. And with that, I mean that EUR 100 million is connected to opportunities and deliberate choices, whereas EUR 200 million is dedicated to covering for risks that have materialized and also general cost inflation. With the EUR 100 million, where we have made some additional choices, the best -- whatever I said before in the presentation was that this is related to the overall versatility, the efficiency and long-term competitiveness of the new production facilities. So with that to try to make an analogy, we are not -- we are still not buying more than one knife, but we are sharpening the knife that we are buying, and we are making it possible for us to use that knife in a more versatile way, which you can read into, for example, product mix and possibilities in the factory. I think that's the best clarification I can give for now on that question.

Great. Maybe another question is we previously talked about hiring for new capacities being wrapped up in the future. Can you remind us again maybe the margin impact of this and whether you expect this to increase into '25 and '26?

Yes. On the margin impact, we maintain what we have said throughout the year on 2024, 1 percentage point EBITDA margin, let's say, erosion due to the ramp-up we've done. And if you look at our FTE numbers, you also get a sense of the magnitude because we're increasing by more than 1,000 FTEs, 400 out of those are SolidAl, but still quite an increase in remaining NKT. How the pre-hiring for the expansion is going to develop over the coming years? It's not fully capped out yet. It will be staggered. And I think we will see a less of a step-up next year compared to what we have seen this year. But we will, of course, carry then the cost associated with those that we hired this year into next year and the year after. And then depending on what else we add coming back to it into year 2025 guidance for next year, it can be the same or more. I think that's how we expect it.

Your next question comes from the line of Lucian Cawthron from CapeView Capital.

Just kind of following on from Casper's question. So for the revenue target, I kind of understand the kind of moving parts here. There's some capacity to win, but have good visibility. But then just on the EBITDA target, kind of the EUR 700 million gives margins above levels, which we've kind of ever seen before. So maybe could you just give us a bit more detail about the kind of margin assumptions within each segment? And then kind of, I guess, specifically on Solutions, we're talking about potentially a 25% EBITDA margin. I mean, firstly, is that the right level? Then also kind of, I guess, the implied margin when you're looking at new tenders post that 2028, I mean, is that the sort of margin you're factoring in? And have you seen kind of any price pressures coming for those tenders post '28?

Thank you for the question. I think what we do is we guide on -- it is an ambition also just to say it's not a guidance and it's not a target for 2028. It's an ambition, right? And that's also why it comes with a larger than EUR 700 million. In that, you'll find that each of the business lines are all contributing with a double-digit EBITDA margin. And then we will refrain from giving any kind of further indication of those levels of each of them. The number you say on the Solutions margin, I think you can get to different numbers and your number is one of the higher we have heard others get to. So just to be mindful of that. I think with Solutions, no matter what, we need to be very mindful that any 2028 financials coming out of Solutions is a -- it's a composition of the projects we are executing on in that period of time. And the 2028 project portfolio is to a much larger degree, the awards of '23, '22 and '24 than what we're executing on today, where we also have in the portfolio awards from 2020 and 2021. So I think it's right to assume that there's an uptick in profitability in Solutions. And then I think what you may be looking for from the question you asked is, well, how is the current price environment? And what can we expect and is 20%, we say, or the 25% something we will see continue? And here, we will refrain from detailing out assumptions of the future simply because -- as you can see from the awards this year, it will be statistical basis of saying what's going to happen in the years following, let's say, 2030, depends on the tenders that will be won in the first 24 months. And we simply have to see how the market develops as you do before we do that. But what we do want to say about the years '29, 2030 is that it's years where especially the Karlskrona factory, the second vessel in Solutions, but also the Cologne factory is getting to more of a steady state with the new assets. So you will see an earning uptick in those years that's meaningful and not putting a number on what that is. But I think giving you one margin number for Solutions from '28 and beyond, that would not be right of us to do not knowing all elements of what we will be executing on.

And maybe just if I could add on the commercial perspective there, what we are seeing and what we are expecting from the market. I will draw your attention also to the comments we made in conjunction with last quarter's result where we do see a strong demand in relation to the supply situation for the years from now and up until the end of this decade. And that we expect will also help to facilitate a continued healthy margin situation for us in the Solutions segment projects. Is there a risk or an opportunity that we can sell even at higher margins than what we have assumed, of course, we cannot rule out that risk. But we also have made the assumptions we have for the EUR 700 million. And then, of course, we will try to commercially optimize this for NKT, but still strike the balance on staying competitive going forward.

If I could just give one follow-up. So maybe let's say, 25% of Solutions potentially is a bit high. But given that's kind of 2/3 of the business, if they're not -- if that's not 25%, then you're obviously getting a big step-up within Application and Service. So could you just give us a bit more maybe of the moving parts as to why you see those 2 segments picking up significantly? Because I guess my understanding and this might be wrong is that obviously, you have the backlog within Solutions, but there isn't really a backlog for Applications and Service.

Yes. Again, we will be -- we understand the question, whereas we are not giving the ambitions for the individual business lines. So I will just start by saying that. But having that said and going to what Line said and I said earlier, we expect all business lines to take part of the growth and also to contribute to these ambitions with a double-digit EBITDA percentage. If you look at Service, I think there is an expectation on these business lines to continue to grow also together with Solutions. But of course, almost no matter how you measure it, it will always be in minor proportions if you compare to Solutions and also to Applications. For applications, here, we do expect growth, as you can see also with the investments we are doing. And we are also expecting, and I think this is the first time you've heard us to talk about all business lines in the double-digit percentage EBITDA space as well and being having that expectation looking towards 2028, which also means that the positive sentiment that we have seen in Solutions that we have started to see also in the Application space is contributing with better volumes, but also more sustainable pricing in Applications. And this is also something that we expect will continue.

We will now take our final question for today. And your final question is a follow-up from Akash Gupta from JPMorgan.

The final one is on inorganic growth expectations in the planning period through 2028. I mean you still have a quite net cash positive balance sheet. And I think despite investing EUR 2 billion over the next 4 years, you will still end up in a good net cash position, assuming we don't see major drag on working capital. So can you talk about like what's your ambition on bolt-on acquisitions, particularly like something similar to what we have seen with SolidAl in the coming years?

Thank you, Akash. Let me start and then Line can also comment maybe on the net working capital development or the expectation thereof. I would start by giving reference to our ReNew BOOST strategy, which is a 3-pillar strategy where one of the pillar is about growth as we are all and you are all well aware. That growth is primarily articulated as organic growth. And this is also the strategy primarily going forward until we have said anything else in conjunction with the new strategy. But I also would like to underline that the SolidAl acquisition shows that we will not be religious or looking away from good opportunities if we can create value for NKT and also for our shareholders, meaning that if something comes along, which is attractive for us, then we will, of course, consider it. But it's also nothing which is in firm plans or an articulate part of our strategy.

I think -- I didn't hear a question from Akash, but what I can say is I think your assumption sounded at least not wrong on net working capital in fact.

I will now hand back to Claes for closing remarks.

Thank you. And I just wish to extend my thanks to everybody for showing interest and calling in today for today's discussion around our updated medium-term financial ambitions. I wish you a good day and looking forward to speaking to you soon. And if we don't before Christmas, then I also want to wish you all Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Thank you. This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.