NOS, S.G.P.S., S.A. (NOS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi. Good afternoon. Welcome to our fourth quarter 2020 earnings announcement and conference call. As usual, we have the full executive committee in the -- in various rooms with us today, so not just in the same room. And Jose Pedro Pereira da Costa, our CFO, will go through the main body of -- the main highlights of the results. And then we're all available for Q&A after that. Jose Pedro, over to you.

Okay. Thank you, Maria, and good afternoon, everyone. So we'll start following the presentation that we have put up this morning in our website. And starting directly with Slide 3 of the presentation with the key highlights of the quarter. In this fourth quarter, we have seen the return to growth on the Telco unit, again, showing strong underlying performance and growing -- and proving business resilience through the pandemic context. We continue to differentiate from our main competitors through innovative products and services in both the consumer and B2B segments, and we'll talk a bit about that, this quarter being a particularly active one, as we will see later. Also, we continue to invest in order to have technological leadership in both the fixed and mobile areas. And finally, following the return to growth at the Telco unit and the strong level of cost control and efficiency, Telco EBITDA also returned to growth. And our very solid balance sheet allows us to continue remunerating shareholders in an attractive way. Now moving to Slide 5. And starting with the operating review. We have, again, a very solid operational performance with another quarter of solid growth across all core services. We managed to post total RGU net adds of 78,000 in this last quarter, with very strong growth of mobile services. Overall, commercial activity is now at completely normalized levels. We have posted solid Pay TV and fixed broadband net adds, continuing to benefit from the fixed network expansion, although now at a slightly slower pace. And finally, on the mobile front, we have posted very positive 66,000 net adds number as a result of very positive contribution from convergent and integrated offers and also positive contribution from prepaid. On the next slide, if we look at our operational performance over time since NOS was created at the beginning of 2014. It is quite impressive that we managed to grow across all services year after year, from Pay TV to fixed broadband, with compounded average growth rates of 2% and 7%, respectively, with mobile being our strongest growth engine with a compound average growth rate of 6% in the period, on the back of a very successful convergence uptake. 2020, being completely out of the ordinary year with the pandemic situation, ended up being the best year for RGU growth since 2017. And this shows well the importance telco services have on our daily lives and business continuity. Moving to the next slide. This RGU growth has been achieved within the backdrop of one of the most developed and mature markets in Europe. It is clear there are very high levels of service penetration in Pay TV, fixed broadband in the order of 90% over primary households; and in mobile, with penetration of 170%, well above European average. It is also clear Portuguese telco customers have a clear preference for bundled offers. Around 86% of Portuguese households, according to the regulator's statistics, subscribe to bundled offers with a clear preference for 4P and 3P. Within this context, Pay TV is a core service for most of Portuguese consumers, led by appealing value propositions and relatively limited and not very diversified free-to-air offers. Portuguese household spend an unusually high number of hours watching TV, more than 6 hours on average per day, well above European average as well, with the non-FTA audience also being very relevant, exceeding 50% total audience ratings. NOS Pay TV offer is very appealing with up to 150 channels for as much as EUR 8 per month, on top of the naked broadband offer starting at EUR 27. That is around EUR 22 ex-VAT. So this additional EUR 8 per month, including the leading multi-platform interface, UMA, voted the best TV user interface since 2017. Also, we provide an entry-level 3P offer with just 30 megabits and 120 channels for just EUR 4 per month on top of the naked broadband offer, in this case, not including the rental of the setup box. Now moving on to Slide 11. We continue launching innovative services in the consumer's market, which continues to drive differentiation. Having been the first to launch eSIM, we launched a new range of pioneering IoT plan, becoming the first to offer narrowband IoT for the consumer market, with tariffs designed to connect intelligent appliances ready for future connection with the 5G network. The offer launch is designed primarily for use in tracking and security-based services. Also in December, we were the first to launch Smart Number, 100% digital solution for smart watches, using the same number as the smartphone in partnership with Apple and Samsung. This service allows for autonomous and seamless smartwatch connectivity without the smartphone and using the same number. Finally, also in December, we had an exclusive launch of the Apple Watch Series 6 Cellular with mobile connectivity compatible with the Smart Number. These numerous innovations and pioneering launches establish well the technological stage and solutions for NOS to lead the mobile technological disruption that will accelerate with the launch of 5G network. We also continued to develop our efforts on digital and customer experience. NOS was the first operator in Portugal to allow customers to self-install the TV and Internet services. This applies, in the case of TV, to the UMA Box and Apple TV; in the case of Internet, to the Power Wi-Fi by Plume to the Giga router. We also launched an innovative partnership with a home delivery platform, bringing our products and services even closer to customers. And finally, we have increased our equipment portfolio to include also non-smartphone products like laptops, tablets and gaming consoles, bringing also the best conditions to our customers. These categories now represent around 7% of total equipment sales. Moving to the B2B area on Slide 13. Our support to business customers during the pandemic was based on accelerated digital transformation with focus on data management and IT solutions. The encouraging progress made in customized solutions for large corporates and more standard product lines for SMEs was based in strategic partnerships with public cloud providers like AWS, Microsoft and Google Cloud. We are making a strong bet on edge computing. Together with AWS, we launched the first Iberian edge computing offer, Outposts, that guarantees faster computer processing capabilities, support for greater workloads and optimization of data warehousing. In partnership with Google Cloud, we launched Anthos hybrid cloud solution in December to facilitate technological infrastructure transition, also allowing for safer storage and advanced data computation. Overall and across the whole B2B segment, we generated more revenues from new data and IT services, like security and business continuity solutions, a trend which is supported by migration to the cloud of our business customers. Now moving to Slide 15, and starting to touch briefly on our network development. We have already, today, a gigabit speed network deployed across the entire footprint of 4.8 million homes. Still, the focus continues to be the upgrade to fiber-to-the-home. Our FttH rollout accelerated again in this quarter, reaching a total of 1.9 million homes passed. That is around 40% of total coverage, around 100,000 FttH households added in the quarter. With our customers turning to working and learning from home, we continue to see high levels of traffic in our networks, fixed data traffic increasing in 2020 around 46% versus the previous year; mobile data traffic increasing 33%. Our best-in-class networks are coping well with these levels of traffic and provide outstanding resilience. We are, at this stage, roughly halfway through the FttH network sharing agreement with 1.3 million households already exchanged after 3 years of execution between 2018 and 2020. We have to reach roughly the same number of households this year and next year, that is 2021 and 2022, which means the pace of deployment will need to accelerate further this next couple of years. On the mobile front, recent deals completed allow us to ensure efficient network expansion and optimization towards a best-in-class mobile network. Just to recall, the sale of NOS Towering was completed at the end of the third quarter of last year, comprising around 2,000 sites, for a cash-in of around EUR 375 million. This allows very significant value creation, with transaction multiples closed in the high end range of comparable transactions and materially above NOS trading multiples, also further reinforcing our capital structure. The long-term agreement with Cellnex, having started on October 1, will enable efficient network expansion and optimization, also reinforcing our ability to reinvest in our infrastructure. The agreement with Cellnex includes future asset sales of around 400 sites for additional EUR 175 million between 2022 and 2026. On the strategic mobile network sharing agreement with Vodafone announced in October. This agreement will allow a more efficient deployment and operation of all technologies, current and future, more environmentally and socially responsible investments, and finally, increased coverage in an efficient way with significant synergies in both passive and active network elements. For NOS, this will mean a considerably higher coverage network with significantly less CapEx and annual OpEx to maintain than it would be the case if we were to deploy this network just by ourselves. Now moving to the financial review on Slide 19. We showed in this quarter a return to growth in the Telco unit with a 1% year-on-year revenue increase. As we will see in the next slide, most of the pandemic impact is still coming from roaming. If we were to adjust for this, Telco revenues would actually be growing 2%. Consolidated revenues were, of course, negatively impacted by the Cinema and audio businesses decline of around 60%. As we said, Telco was back to growth in the quarter with revenue increase of 1%, again adjusting for roaming, 2%, shows well the resilience of this unit. Roaming remains the major headwind, in terms of the pandemic context, roaming revenues decreasing in this quarter, around 50%. The overall weight of roaming revenues in full year 2019 was about 2.4% of total Telco revenues. In full year 2020, it represented only 1.1%, this level being clearly a more favorable comp for 2021 performance. Roaming impact, more the B2B than the B2C segment. Therefore, adjusted for roaming, we saw the Consumer segment posting year-on-year a revenue increase of 0.4%, impacted positively by convergence, integrated bundles and personal mobile. The B2B segment, with revenue increase of 7%, benefiting from good contributions across all segments, from low-end SMEs to large corporates and namely IT and security revenues. And finally, the wholesale and other segment increasing 3.5% on the back of growth of mass calling services compensating advertising declines. Telco EBITDA also returned to growth with an increase of 1.5% versus a 1% revenue growth, benefiting from revenue recovery and strong cost management, in particular in nondirect costs, namely marketing and advertising, but also several general and administrative costs. With -- moving to the net income level. With consolidated EBITDA decrease of around EUR 4 million, net income in the quarter increased around EUR 8 million due basically to a significant decline in D&A due to impairment charges booked in the last quarter of 2019 and compensating the increase in financial costs, which is due to the increase in leasing financial costs of the tower deal, as expected. Total group CapEx in the quarter, excluding leasing contracts, reached EUR 150 million, an increase of around EUR 16 million versus last year. And this reflects a strong increase in technical Telco CapEx of around EUR 14 million, reaching EUR 66 million in the quarter, due to a strong recovery of our FttH deployment that had a slowdown in the first half due to the lockdown restrictions. We also had an increase in customer-related CapEx, reaching EUR 45 million, due to the recovery of commercial activity and also to the impact from the upgrade to last generation CPEs on the broadband and TV areas, driving some additional ARPU uplift. The fourth quarter tends to be the lowest quarter in terms of free cash flow generation due to the quarterly phasing of CapEx projects, traditionally higher levels of CapEx towards the end of the year. This year was particularly impacted by the substantially higher level of CapEx to recover the lower levels of the first half, as we said before, due to the lockdown restrictions. Therefore, EBITDA minus CapEx reached EUR 17 million. Operational free cash flow after lease payments and working capital variation reached a negative EUR 10 million. And finally, free cash flow after interest and taxes generated in the quarter reached a negative EUR 25 million, again, largely influenced by the level of CapEx, but also negatively impacted by, again, a very high level of cash taxes in the quarter of EUR 13 million, as flagged in the last earnings call. As we said then, we expect to compensate this high level of cash taxes with a considerably lower level in 2021. So on average, between last year and this year, we should have our normalized cash tax rate. In terms of capital structure, net financial debt in the quarter reached around EUR 800 million. This net financial debt number represents 1.5x the EBITDA level adjusted for lease payments, which is well below our target of close to 2x. Average cost of debt increased in the quarter to 1.6% due to the extraordinary high level of excess cash, which is not remunerated, around EUR 150 million of excess cash following the sale of NOS Towering. Once this excess cash situation normalizes after the dividend payment, average cost of debt should go back to close to the levels in the previous quarters of 2020. Cash and the new credit lines reached close to EUR 500 million at the end of the quarter. And this 1.5x leverage provide us with a lot of headroom to finance the investments in our core infrastructure projects and to keep our robust investment-grade credit profile, which we are committed to maintain. And finally, regarding shareholder remuneration. The Board of Directors approved a proposal to the next April AGM of a dividend payment of EUR 27.8 per share, in line with last year, representing a dividend yield of approximately 10% versus yesterday's closing price. The Board of Directors recognizes that following the recent sale of NOS Towering and the strength of NOS balance sheet, upon payment of this dividend, NOS will remain below its target of 2x net financial debt-to-EBITDA after leasing. We remain committed to maintain and preserve this strong capital structure to finance future investments that we need to address and to support continued delivery of sustainable value creation for shareholders. And lastly, and before we conclude the presentation, let us just share with you some very positive news around performance and recognition on the ESG front. Following our recent ESG rating from Vigeo published in November, in which we have improved our results from 40 to 60, meaning the highest advanced rating, positioning NOS already as a reference within the telco sector. We also got our inaugural rating from CDP, where we were awarded the rating of A-, the highest level of leadership performance range, recognizing NOS is already implementing current best practice in the fight against climate change. This A- rating positions no well above the average for the region and for the telecom sector, with maximum scores achieved for initiatives to monitor and reduce emissions. These recent recognitions also show well our commitment to continue improving our ESG standards. And with this last note, we conclude the presentation, and we can now start the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] The first question today comes from the line of Roshan Ranjit from Deutsche Bank.

Two for me, please. On the B2B side, we saw a very strong performance, which was good in the context of, I guess, seeing some of the pressures some of the smaller businesses have got into. How shall we think about that going forward through 2021? I imagine the products which have been gaining the top line traction, the business solutions, sub-security, could be lower margin. I guess you've mitigated it quite well through Q4. But through 2021, should we expect some pressure on the margins there? And secondly, on the fiber rollout. I think you're well into kind of overlap territory now. Isn't it possible to get a sense of the takeup, the willingness of customers who already have, I guess, well, maybe a DOCSIS 3.1 connection to move across to fiber? I guess, where there wasn't this disconnection, it was maybe easier. But is there a bit more of a resistance to move across from the cable to the fiber technology?

Okay, Roshan. Let me start with your second question, and I'll ask Manuel to complement on the first one on the B2B. So I mean, basically, what we are doing today is continuing the deployment of FttH in both greenfields, and there is areas where we don't have coverage in those areas where we already have the cable network. And obviously, for the customers that are willing to take the higher-end offers, there is some migration from HFC to FttH. But at this point in time, the level of migration of customers is relatively limited since the HFC network can also provide very good levels of service today. So on B2B, Manuel, can you...

Sure. Thank you very much. Just a couple of notes on B2B. First, as we all know, the Telco revenues on the B2B front are, as in the rest of the world, under pressure. And we're, of course, trying to compensate that pressure with additional IT business. How should you read the numbers from this quarter? Basically, half and half. So half of it is a healthy recurring revenue growth in all segments, especially if you take out the roaming impact. And half of it basically is a particularly strong quarter in nonrecurrent IT projects in the areas of cloud and security, managed services and innovation. The first will have the regular or average margin per segment in B2B. The second has, of course, the nonrecurring projects. They will have a lower margin as they have also -- are not irrelevant part of the equipment, but also a relevant part of services. And so this our service business. As a whole, it's quite healthy and basically produces the same bottom line impact as other businesses that have -- if you account for the differences in CapEx.

Okay. So I guess if we maybe bring that all together, are we expecting any impact on the margins through '21? Or will that be kind of absorbed within some of the wider efficiency programs that you have ongoing?

Yes. We are not seeing anything different in terms of margin development. So traditionally, the way that we've been -- once we get to revenue -- sort of revenue recovery type of profile, with the cost efficiency that we have in place, this should continue to translate in a slightly higher margin as usual. Once we get to a normalized situation -- as you know, we are not today in a completely normalized situation. We still have headwinds from roaming. For instance, this is something for which we don't have today full visibility when we should have some recovery. But once the situation normalizes, we should get the same type of profile in terms of revenue and EBITDA trajectory as we have seen in the previous quarters.

The next question is from the line of Mathieu Robilliard from Barclays.

First, coming back to the Q4 trends. As I understand it, in Portugal, the lockdown was very harsh in Q4. Yet we haven't seen a deterioration in the B2C. And obviously, as we just discussed, there was a good improvement in B2B. Is there anything going on, on the B2C side that explains that strong performance despite the lockdown? Are people moving up in terms of the packages? Has there been some more-for-more initiatives? If you could give a bit of color there. Then a second question on CapEx. So as you flagged in one of your slides and as you said, you will accelerate the pace of FttH rollout in the next few years, which presumably means a bit higher CapEx there. Also, I guess, at some point, you will have some 5G-related investments. So I was wondering if it was fair to conclude that CapEx would -- could increase a bit, certainly not decline in the coming years. And then lastly, if I may, on the spectrum auction that is still taking place. Can you update us on any challenges, legal or otherwise, that are ongoing, considering the fact that you and the other MNOs were not happy about the setting and the framework of that auction?

Okay. Thank you for your questions, Miguel Almeida here. Starting with the lockdown Q4. Actually, we had a very harsh lockdown starting in January, not so much in Q4. Actually, probably the problem that we are having this quarter was because it was not very effective, the measures taken during Q4. So what's happened both on B2B and B2C is that we had something close to a normal activity -- normal commercial activity and some differences in terms of mix, channel mix. But since the lockdown was not very harsh during that period, we had normal commercial activity. Actually, it's Q1 this year that the lockdown is a little bit more hard. I'll take also the third question in terms of spectrum auction. I think -- and this probably will answer later questions. You can understand that at this stage, with the auction going on, there's nothing we can do and there's nothing we should do -- sorry, there's nothing we can say and there's nothing we should say about an ongoing process, where anything we can say could be interpreted in some kind of way, which obviously we don't want that to happen. So you have to understand that at this stage, we are not making any comments on the spectrum auction. Once it is over, we will be more than happy to do it.

Okay, Mathieu, regarding the second question and the -- around CapEx, trying to give you a bit more color. We mentioned, yes, that in terms of FttH deployment, the current deployment in the context of the fiber sharing agreement, we mentioned that we have executed around 50% of the overall plan in 3 years, which means that we have to deploy the remaining 50% between 2021 and 2022. So I mean, if you do the numbers, that basically means an acceleration of pace of FttH rollout, and subsequently, of FttH-related CapEx. So that's more or less inevitable. Also to flag that in terms of commercial CapEx, that is always dependent on overall commercial activity. Still, we should continue to upgrade customers to our next-generation CPEs, both on the TV and the broadband area. So we should also see some additional pressure at the commercial CapEx level. Still, in this case, it should not represent very material increase versus the 2020 full year numbers. And finally, regarding 5G. There's not much we can say also at this stage with all the current uncertainties around the 5G auction, not only in terms of timing, but also in terms of frequencies awarded. So on that front, we cannot give you anything very concrete at this stage. And just to mention that basically, overall, if we take an overall view of CapEx plan for the next years, we should see -- this is a bit of a cycle. So we should see more CapEx coming, but in the next, I'd say, 2, 3 years based on the elements I just gave you. But then things should also normalize. So this is not a recurrent level that we will sustain forever.

The next question is from the line of Fernando Cordero from Banco Santander.

The first question is on the technical CapEx and also in the customer CapEx. In that sense, I would like to understand what has been the churn evolution during the fourth quarter in order to understand the customer CapEx spike or increase in the fourth quarter, how much is coming from commercial activity or churn and how much is coming from the, let's say, more value-added CPE offers to the client. My second question is on shareholder remuneration. After the decision on full year earnings, I would like to, let's say, to understand your views on how do you see shareholder remuneration going forward. In 2020, you are using part of the, let's say, leverage capacity of the company. That is really comfortable. And I would like to understand at which extent -- also considering, for example, the potential CapEx increase as a whole in the coming years, at which extent you are willing to continue using this balance sheet leeway in order to maintain the -- at least to maintain the current shareholder remuneration.

Okay. Thank you, Fernando. I'll start with the customer CapEx and how it relates with the churn evolution. We saw during the fourth quarter just a slightly very marginal churn increase, which is a natural consequence of 2 quarters of very low churn with the lockdown in place during Q2 and even part of Q3. So there was some increment, but that was very marginal. And it was actually bringing us to an average churn level throughout the last 3 quarters, which is quite low. We are quite happy with that. So what you've seen in terms of customer CapEx, as Jose Pedro mentioned in the presentation, is much more upgrading customers to last generation CPEs, improving service to those customers, getting -- uplifting ARPU and make them -- making those customers much more satisfied with our service. So it's much more on that front and with that logic than it is driven by higher levels of churn.

Okay. Regarding shareholder remuneration going forward. Let me just remind you that our Board of Directors takes the decision on shareholder remuneration on a yearly basis. We do not have a formal shareholder remuneration policy for the future. And in terms of thought process, every year, the shareholder remuneration decision by the Board of Directors is taken considering the objectives of preserving a strong capital structure and retaining enough headroom to finance the medium and long-term investment projects that the company needs to address. And that was the way the decision for this year was taken.

The next question is from the line of Martin Hammerschmidt from Citi.

I have 2, please. One relates to the nondirect costs. We've seen some savings of EUR 24 million in 2020, and I'm just wondering how sustainable sort of these cost savings are since the bulk of that is due to the lower spend for advertising, supplies and excellent services. Because I would assume that with the economy opening up again and a new entrant coming in, some of these cost savings might come back. So maybe if you could give us some color on how to think about these cost savings and the sustainability of them going forward. And then the second one is on sort of the fixed broadband intake. We have seen a slowdown in the fourth quarter. So I was just wondering what is sort of the underlying reason for that? Is that because lower new homes passed and low advertising spend? So any sort of indication or color would be great.

Well, thank you for your questions. On the nondirect costs, there are a number of elements that justify the decrease. Marketing and advertising is one of them. Probably this one is -- probably the one that, I think we already mentioned that in the last call, is not a -- I would say, recurrent level of cost. And to give you an example, we didn't host the music festivals we used to host due to the pandemic situation. So that was a saving that once the situation normalizes, we should start having again this type of events, probably not for this year, but potentially and hopefully, maybe for 2022. But there are other savings which are more structural. We also have to do with the way that we are addressing customers, for instance, in terms of enabling us to be more digital in the way that we interact with customers. So that is -- I'd say, out of the total savings of last year, some of them are structural and recurring and some have more to do with the context. And these costs should come back to normalized levels once, as we hope, the pandemic situation goes back to normal. On the second question, I don't think that there was any major slowdown in terms of broadband takeup. So the numbers are similar to previous levels. So I mean, commercial activity was affected basically last year in the second quarter. Third quarter and fourth quarter, were already relatively normal quarters. So we are not seeing anything strange in those numbers, and we expect to continue progressing with the same type of trends for this year.

The next question is from the line of Jerry Dellis from Jefferies.

My first question has to do with more-for-more price increases in the consumer sector segment. We've seen examples of this coming out of lockdown in various other European markets. I'd be interested in your view as to the capacity for yourselves to be able to implement more-for-more price increases in the consumer segment, at least outside of stand-alone mobile. And my second question is would it be possible, please, to clarify what the ARPU is among your stand-alone mobile base, please? And then finally, in the B2B segment, within your revenue mix, is it possible to isolate for us in broad terms the amount that you would consider to be legacy products, where you're managing a decline?

Okay. Thank you for your questions. I'll take the first one the more-for-more approach. Actually, this goes back to my comment on the customer CapEx on the quarter. Most of that, as I mentioned, comes from policies of more-for-more. So under these difficult conditions with people working from home and kids studying from home, so there is an increased demand for more performing services in terms of the fixed, namely broadband. And that has allowed us, as I said, to uplift ARPU, basically selling more-for-more. So upgrading the level of service, selling under a subscription logic Wi-Fi solutions to improve the quality of Wi-Fi within the home. So the overall answer is there is quite a potential in our market and in our customer base to do that kind of strategy. And that's exactly what we are doing.

Well, in terms of the ARPU of stand-alone mobile, we don't -- we usually don't give out or publish this number. Of course, it's a number which is lower than the implicit ARPU on mobile of conversion bundles. We have a very large number of tariff plans in terms of prepaid stand-alone mobile from relatively high usage type of tariffs, like the use of that segment to relatively low-volume type of usage. So it's obviously a low number, less than EUR 10 per month. But I don't really get the reason for asking that question. It's something which has been as it is within these levels for the last few quarters. So we don't expect, at this level, any new trends.

Regarding B2B and the Telco versus non-Telco or traditional revenue streams versus new revenue streams. Basically, the weight is very different between the segments. So SMEs has 99% traditional telco revenues versus 1% IT; mid-markets, around 17% IT; and corporate, around 32%. And our -- the reason for our push in large services, managed services and innovation is exactly to more than compensate the pressure that we're having in the traditional telco revenues. We believe there is still a lot of room for growth in all the segments and with, of course, different value propositions.

Could I just come back on the stand-alone mobile point? I think on the Q3 call, you said that 40% of your mobile customers took stand-alone packages and that they comprised a bit less than 10% of total telecom revenues. So on a very sort of simplistic average, that would point to an ARPU of about EUR 6 a month. And you're saying that there's a wide range. So there could be people who are quite a bit higher than EUR 6. Would that be fair?

I think your numbers overall in terms of range, without giving out the precise numbers -- because I mentioned less than EUR 10. You mentioned the EUR 6. Probably somewhere in between these 2 numbers. But there's a considerably high range, yes. And overall, as we said, this personal stand-alone, personal mobile represents clearly less than 10% of the total Telco revenues. Yes.

The next question is from the line of Luigi Minerva from HSBC.

Two questions. The first one is on the Cinema business, and yes, obviously, under incredible pressure. I was wondering, in the past, you considered disposal. So whether that could be an option when things recover. And then if you think that the business can go back to normalized levels of revenue in the next 2, 3 years, perhaps. And the second question is on the shareholder structure. We know that it is public that the holding company, ZOPT, is to be dissolved. I was wondering if you can give us an update on the timing and the process.

Okay. Thank you very much for your questions. Starting with the Cinema business. Well, it's not in our agenda, for sure, any analysis or the hypothesis of disposal at this stage. I think it's clear that this would not be a good moment to think about it and even the worst moment to do it. We still believe that the business will recover. When? Obviously, we don't know. But we still believe that the business will recover. Going to the cinema theater is not about -- or is not just about watching movies. It's a social experience which cannot be replicated at home. And as such, we believe that there is still a future for cinema. But in all honesty, we don't know how -- when a recovery or a full recovery will happen. Obviously, we expect recovery to start very soon as the lockdown restrictions are lifted. But full recover, I think it's too early to give you our perspective on that because we don't have it. We'll have to see how it goes. But again, we are optimistic that with time, it will fully recover. In terms of shareholder structure, there's not much of this -- actually, there's nothing we can add to what it is public information in the sense that what we have access to is the public information. That is something regarding our shareholders. So we don't have more information than the one that is public. What I can tell you, and I think that's the most relevant aspect related to your question, is that from a governance point of view, we are as solid as ever. And the Board works normally. We have an experienced, motivated and very empowered management team running the company. So we are -- we have full Board support. And as such, those issues are not something that impact the day to day of the company.

Okay. Well, thank you very much for your time today. And as usual, we're always around to take your further questions. And thank you very much. Bye-bye.