Ovzon AB (publ) (OVZON) Q4 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome, SATCOM company, Ovzon have published their year-end report for 2025 this morning. We will now be giving a presentation about results and activities. And this is done by CEO, Per Noren; and CFO, Andre Lofgren. After the presentation, there will be a Q&A by equity analysts and investors. And by that, welcome, Per and Andre.

Thank you, Mattias.

So arrows and graphs are pointing in the right direction. How would you, in brief, describe 2025 for Ovzon?

Thank you, and good morning, everyone. The year has been a systemic shift, I would say, a breakthrough for Ovzon when it comes to our financial performance, but also when it comes to scaling up the company. We saw 120% increase in revenue and a quite considerable increase in EBITDA improvement from basically plus/minus 0 in 2024 to SEK 291 million in 2025. So it's been a phenomenal year and numbers are numbers, and they don't lie. However, I think the upscaling of both delivering on the big order we took in May in 2025 as both on the SATCOM services side, building networks and delivering services to our customers as well as scaling up the terminal side is the most prominent thing that stands out to me, and that's delivered good results this year.

Okay. Then please go ahead with your presentation.

Thank you, Mattias. Well, we're, of course, quite excited and delighted to be here today to talk about our fourth quarter and our full year 2025. But let's go back to the basics first and talk about who we are. Most of you are very familiar with this, of course, but we do see ourselves having a greater calling than, I would say, most other companies. We have a vision of connecting and protecting people, societies and organizations for a safer world. And one can easily say that with the geopolitical tensions that are in the world, this is a necessity today. We operate in space. Space is our infrastructure to deliver a unique service. And we bring resilient, mobile and high-performing satellite communications to our customers that can be found in defense, national security and public safety sector. We have had a period of many years of heavy investments in our own satellite capacity and mobile satellite terminals that we are now turning into a strong growth -- profitable growth case with an order book of over SEK 1 billion, and you can see that on the graph in front of you here. A little bit of the reminder of our uniqueness. Ovzon's value proposition is the one of an integrated communication solutions with very, very high performance, and ability to use it for both manned and unmanned people and vessels. We integrate the phone, the mobile satellite terminal with building very dynamic and strong networks. And we do that also by having partnership with secure gateways and then a dedicated customer support 24/7. So in essence, we monitor every signal, every terminal and every movement with our steerable beams on our networks to ensure that our customers get basically 100% connectivity wherever they are in the world. Very few, I would say no one has this integrated capability. Satellite operators operate satellites and deliver bandwidth. Mobile terminal providers deliver mobile terminals. Gateway providers deliver gateway services and connection to fiber and Internet. We integrate all of that. And plus we have our own capability, both in space and on the ground to ensure that, that's guaranteed. Where we do it, as I said in the beginning, is foremost in defense, but also for national security and public safety. When it comes to defense, the big trend right now and what we have learned from the areas that are in most attention today is that digitization is the driver of defense today. And when you digitize something, you need connectivity to transport information, data, video footage, et cetera, et cetera. And it needs to be multi-domain operations between in the air, on the ground, on the water, people and vessels and assets need that information in real time to make fast decisions to protect and connect what their missions are. So we do this in all those domains with our unique technology and unique capabilities. That's on the defense side where we're the strongest today and where we've had our focus the last 4 to 5 years. However, it needs to be put in perspective that Ovzon's mission-critical connectivity is beyond defense, national security and public safety. So our growth prospect as a company is much greater than that. And our impact on connecting and protecting a society is much greater than that. So we see opportunities in being very deliberate about being strong in the domains and in the areas we choose to serve, but also have an openness because we know our technology is so strong, so it can actually feed other types of domains in the society today. And this picture represents some of that as well. It's important to understand that the market is quite enormous for us. Obviously, we all wake up every morning and follow every day what's happening in the world. But I want to put Ovzon in the context of the strategic environment that we operate within. If you think about geopolitics, which becomes geoeconomics as well, we are in what's called a super cycle for defense spendings. NATO sets a demand of 5% of GDP going into NATO and defense spendings. But also each country needs to build and they are building and investing in sovereignty and resilient capabilities and solutions. Alliances, could be between countries or within NATO, et cetera, et cetera, are looking at the same. Obviously, Arctic and the high North is a very, very important area. We can follow that in media as well and between our political leaders. We have abilities in that area, but it will take some time to build a solution for that, obviously. And the conflicts that we see in the world are also driving an increased demand. So we are in a troublesome situation for the world, but an opportunity for us to connect and protect for our customers. When it comes to policy and procurement, more money is spent, but procurement cycles are maybe not as fast as the money -- the availability of money today. And I think that's an important aspect to understand when you're in a business-to-government business as we are, that you have to have endurance, you have to think and act long term and you have to stay true to your core capability and solution to do that. When it comes to the industry, there is a space race. You can see the likes of Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, owning SpaceX, Tesla and others and owning Amazon investing in low earth orbit constellations. They have different business model for them, but that's about connectivity to make sure that societies are connected. We don't compete with that. We complement that with mission criticality. So we see that investment wave in the industry as a positive and a strong aspect of actually investment in capabilities and our position is very strong for that. So you can see that there is also a growing interest in the space domain. And space is a big word. There's a lot of things in space. What Ovzon does and we do it very well, is that we use space as infrastructure for delivering a highly unique performance-driven, mobile-driven and resilient solution for connectivity for the customers we choose to serve. Turning from that more macro perspective, we're going to turn our focus more into the Q4 accomplishments. And it has been a focus on execution. And that execution has then led to, of course, an increased momentum for us in accelerating our profitable growth and our profitability. In the quarter, we had a complementary order of more mobile satellite terminals from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration. This is a strong and good sign that when you have networks up and you have terminals in use, you start to see broader and deeper use cases for those and the need for more terminals which makes us more sticky also with the customers. And then at the end of the year, we got a relatively large order from a European NATO customer on Ovzon 3-based SATCOM solutions, including mobile satellite terminals of SEK 240 million. We've also invested in our leadership team. My colleague, Andre Lofgren, joined us in 2025 as our CFO. Jeanette Irekvist joined us in the fall of '25 as our Chief Commercial Officer, both with external -- long and deep external experiences. And we have the pleasure of appointing Martin Eriksson, who's been with Ovzon for 18 years and is one of our -- has been one of our lead technical leaders and engineers as our Chief Technology Officer as we cease to continue to strengthen our technology leadership. So we have a very, very strong, I would say, leadership bench and for future growth and capabilities. Going back to 2 things that I want to mention here. I think there are 2 things you can look at. You can look, as you said, Mattias, graphs and arrows pointing in the right direction financially. That comes from an order book that is strong. It comes from an order intake that is strong in the year and also in the quarter. But it also comes from the ability of scaling up and delivering, having operational excellence and having an ability to execute and deliver on those contracts you get. And I think in the defense market, this is very, very important. There are sensitivities to when you work with government money, which is really tax money that I think as a company in that sector, we have an obligation to actually deliver on that and be cost effective and deliver on time. So I think we have a very strong operational excellence. We've had a very strong utilization in the quarter of Ovzon 3, but also ensure that we have third-party satellite capacity that complements that because we see that the demand going forward for the specificity of Ovzon 3 is there. So we want to keep enough capability ready for those customers that we are hopefully bringing on in the future. And as you can see, we have delivered mobile satellite terminals to a pretty large value in 2025 over SEK 208 million. And I think the core of what we do is to renew current customers and win new. And you only do that by delivering, by living up to your value proposition, as I embarked on earlier and that you build customer trust when you consistently deliver high quality, you have an organization that is integrated with clear accountability and you have strong execution, reinforcing customer confidence and building future growth opportunities with that. Before I hand over to Andre, I'll just talk a little bit about the journey that we've been on. And I'm not going to do it in numbers per se. But to understand, we were in a very heavy investment period for a number of years. We managed to keep revenue at bay at fairly high levels, and we added some new customers and so on. But the investments were larger than the ability to create the margins needed to carry those. That has changed with the growth we've had, but growth doesn't come by itself. It comes with being smart about business models, being smart about commercial success and being smart about operational execution. So with that, I'll hand it over to Andre to take us through the numbers for the quarter and for the year.

Perfect. Thank you, Per. Yes, let's start with the revenue. And as Per said, with these investments into our own satellite and also then securing third-party capacity, we can have had this growth in revenue, thanks to that because you see here is both service revenue that is increasing quarter-by-quarter and then also especially in this quarter, and you see a big chunk of terminal being sold in this quarter. So yet again, a very strong quarter for growth in revenue. And if you look at the slide to the right here, you see we have zoomed in on the service revenue. So this is the run rate for, say that you have what you have in the fourth quarter and take that times 4, then you are at this above SEK 700 million annually in services revenue, which, as you can see, is a record high level. So it's very satisfying to see. I'll move over to profitability. It's actually the same headline as we had in the previous quarter, but it's still the truth. We have profitability that continues to improve. And that has to do with the growth that we have in the operations in general, but also that we have really good cost control. So we can really expand margins, as you can see. We're now into the seventh consecutive quarter of EBITDA growth. And to the right, you see the 5 quarters in a row of EBIT growth. Some might note that Q3 versus Q4, there is a bit of a moderation of the EBITDA margin, but that has to do with the sales mix of a lot of terminals being sold in this quarter, and they are at slightly lower margins than our services. So it's a mix effect here. I'll actually deep dive a bit deeper into profitability. This is a new slide from us. I think it's time to go all the way down to profit after tax and EPS for us as a company because it's the first year that we have black numbers for the full year when it comes to EPS and profit for the period. You see a very strong Q4 here this quarter, SEK 90 million in net profit, representing SEK 0.81 in earnings per share. And in these numbers, it's -- what you see here is actually the first time you see the impact of the refinancing and the lower interest rate cost that we now have, thanks to that refinancing. And that is something that starts in this quarter and are continuing as we go ahead here. Another impact, which is more of a one-off impact is the tax impact from a recognition of deferred taxes which we now recognize as an asset because we have used the tax loss carryforwards in this year. So we're deducting that from the potential tax. And then as we look ahead, we see that there's a very clear potential for additional recognition of these tax loss carryforwards. So that's why we are recognizing this in this quarter. And if you sum these quarters up to a full year, you see that we are delivering SEK 137 million in profit for the year after tax, really strong numbers. In these numbers, though, you have, first of all, the one-off effect, but also then you have a tailwind from currencies, which is then unrealized. It's translational in the balance sheet. I'll move -- take the elevator back up to operational level and look at the cash flow, which is -- really glad to be able to present those today here as well as the previous quarter. You see that we continue the trend of -- well, first of all, very strong operations and the performance of operations, but also really interesting and good payment terms that we have with our customers. They are really progressive and cooperating with us well on these terms, so we can continue the growth that we have and then invest in the company. That has also then helped us to reduce our net debt quite substantially. We have amortized a lot of the debt, but we have also then been increasing our cash position in the company. So it's -- we're ending the year on a very strong note when it comes to our financial position. And if we are then summarizing this, when it comes to financials, it's a strong growth, and that is coupled with then a very strong growth in profitability. So it's a profitable growth that we are on to. And we are securing a strong balance sheet and also a very healthy backlog going into the years ahead here. So I'm very pleased with presenting these numbers for this year. And Per, with that, I hand it back to you.

Thank you, Andre. Thank you for that. And I'm sure there will be some more questions coming your and our way in a little bit. But just staying on this for a little while. So for those that have invested in our company and follow us closely, I will say that these numbers don't come by itself. It requires long-term investment. It requires operational execution. It requires commercial sturdiness to understand that your value is strong. You have to have a long-term view on what you do. And then you have to really work with your customers to ensure that the value that we promise to give is actually recognized. And that then turns into these contracts. So I think 3 things stand out to me. We're living up to the promise. We have a business model that is strong. We have strong commercial sharpness, and we have a very, very strong execution model that can scale for us. Now before we go to a conclusion, I think it's worthwhile maybe -- and maybe this is too pedagogical, but to understand our business model somewhat. We divide it into 2 parts, basically, SATCOM services, Andre talked about that. Our run rate is up now over SEK 700 million. That's monthly service revenue from customer networks that we set up. They have high service margins and the cash flow that becomes predictable. And the more long-term contracts we create and sign and the longer-term relationships we have, the more predictable that becomes. And that's an important key performance indicator, I would say. The second part is mobile satellite terminals. We have reasonably -- we have good margins on mobile satellite terminals. The model is that they are -- revenue is recognized upon delivery. So when the customer takes delivery of the terminal. And then the more terminals that are deployed, it drives the need for more networks and bandwidth. So it drives services growth, which you can then translate into the SATCOM services part. And then, of course, that then, in turn, drives follow-on and supplementary orders of more and more terminals. And maybe a comment on terminals. The smaller, the more use cases. The smaller, the more difficult to develop and have performance mobility resiliency. We can come back to that a little bit later. And last but not least, it starts with the customer and ends with the customer. So deep customer relationships comes from delivering value, mission-critical performance, renew and have long-term partnership and support expansion of that. So I wanted to actually address that again so that everyone understands where the numbers actually come from. And last but not least, what can be expected from Ovzon going forward with such a strong performance, as I would say we had in 2025. Well, we're embarked on a journey to continue to deliver financial performance, meaning profitable growth. That comes from number two, ensuring commercial success straight through to our value proposition, win -- renew customers, win new customers and expand into new application areas with our capabilities and solutions. And number three, we are operating on a higher level of scale as a company today, which means that we are also actively looking at scaling. And that scaling will not eat the profitable growth journey, but it will require smartness in investments in scaling the company up to that. But we believe we have the model for it. I believe that 2025 shows that we do. And I believe that we have the possibility to continue to do so as we go forward and embark on the profitable growth journey. So I think with that, Andre and I thank you for listening to the presentation and are now ready to go to questions and answers.

Thank you so much, Per and Andre, for that presentation. And we will start off with equity analyst, Mikael Laseen at DNB Carnegie.

Okay. Hope you can hear me. I'll start off with a question on the gross margin. It was a good uplift year-on-year and better than I expected. Can you talk to us about the margin dynamics, which is primarily mix effects. So on the leased side and on your terminals, how we should think about that when we go into '26?

Yes, it's kind of the same situation as in this year, 2025. So as you said, Mikael, it's a mix of terminals, which have slightly lower margins and then you have third-party capacity of services, which is a little bit higher or higher than what you have on terminals. And then you have what's been delivered in gross margin when -- from our own satellite, which is a very, very healthy level. So that's kind of the indication we can give you. On exact numbers, it's hard to do. But it will always be the balance of these mix effects, and that's something that we're working also thoroughly with of mixing both third-party and our own proprietary satellite services.

Yes. But since the margin effects and the differences are so big, can you help us understand what type of mix you had approximately in Q4 between Ovzon 3 leased capacity on the service side. I guess it changed quite a lot compared to Q3.

Well, the biggest shift versus Q3 is actually the proportion of terminals versus services in general. But then there's also always a slight mix between quarters also on how much is from Ovzon 3 and what comes from third-party capacity. I can't go much into more details on that, actually.

I think just -- I'll make an overlay comment on it, Mikael. I think it's hard to predict, of course, for someone on the outside. We are working constantly with trying to maximize the utilization of Ovzon 3 where we can. But we also don't want to hold back on ensuring that we have third-party capacity so that we can fulfill contractual obligations and continue to work on actually the new contracts that we are working on as well. So I think the mix there has been strong and balanced between Ovzon 3 and third-party capacity. But on the terminal side, especially, I think that's where the biggest mix is in Q4. We've had a very, very strong quarter in delivering. And we do have healthy margins on the terminals as well. I think that's what you see in the uptick as well.

Yes, exactly. Yes. And another more technical question maybe before I have another one actually on the market situation, if I may. It's on the phasing of the current order book going into '26 and primarily the first half. And maybe if you can help us out with how much of the order backlog that will be delivered in 2027, so we can understand sort of that the mathematics.

Yes. And I think actually, you can view one of our summarizing slides on the financials where you see the mix of what is expected to come in the -- sorry yes -- what's in '26 and what's in '27. So it's a fairly big chunk here now in 2026.

You can see that on the lower right here. So 76% of the order book is in '26 as we have it now and 22% in -- 78% and 22% in 2027. And if you add more contracts going forward, you'll have that shifting over time, '26, '27 as well.

Okay. And then my final one, how would you describe the current customer funnel and the customer discussions compared to maybe 6 months ago?

Yes. I think I would say the following. We are in -- we continue to be in deeper discussions with a number of customers. I've made -- I've talked a lot about the timing of things, right? It takes time to both educate and demonstrate and deliver value in the phase of sales, but the sales pipeline is solid and increasing and with now a new Chief Commercial Officer, who is also ramping up the number of salespeople we have so we can cover more ground. I would say that it's solid what we have, and it will over the year -- it should, over the year, increase as well. So I feel comfortable with the sales pipeline, but cannot predict exactly when things happen.

And we move over to Simon Granath at ABG Sundal Collier. [Operator Instructions]

Congratulations on the strong earnings in 2025. As usual, we tend to ask questions about something you might not be able to give full insight into. But could you try to give us some more color on both the recent progress in terms of adding more satellites to roster. Also, we have spoken about different scenarios historically, whereas you could both do this through a partner or with proprietary funds. Is there anything that changes here that means that you lean towards either of these?

No. I think it's a very good question and very relevant for us to try to answer. And of course, before a decision is made, a decision is not made. However, we have -- we wanted to ensure that Ovzon 3 was operating, that we made the right technical choices, that we made the right operational choices that they deliver the value and the promise that we had set for it. And we believe, yes, that, that is done with 2025. We also believe that the commercial model for it, the business model for it and the prospect of growth and margins on it is also there. So we're starting to see that the return on investment horizon is there as well, number two. And so before -- and then number three, our own financial -- our ability to finance such a capability is also important. I think the refinancing we did in 2025 shows that there is adequate financing available whatever mean we choose to go -- where we choose to go. So all of these things are there, plus, of course, the customer verifying that the onboard processor and the satellite is delivering beyond what other capabilities does. So all of that, I think, is '25 gives us an indication that we should go for more satellite capability and capacity. We know it takes time. So we have somewhat of a sense of urgency. And what we do is that we have -- we are out talking to satellite manufacturers about what's available. There are actually quite a few new ones in the market, which is interesting. And then there are the traditional ones that are trustworthy in developing something. So we're in the midst of that process doing a technical evaluation. Then we'll go to the -- and we know that the demand in the market is there. And then we go to the financial part of the equation and see if we can get it to work as a business case. So we believe that we have an ambition to expand with more than one, but I think the business case needs to be developed further and closed, and we believe that we will have to do that during this year.

Yes. And maybe just to add to that, it's not only prioritized satellites, it's also that we will still continue with third-party capacity correct. I mean it's -- that is needed as well to fulfill demand going forward. So it's going to be a mix of both.

We see that we operate on a level now where it's time to have the guts to actually go further.

And building on Andre's comment there, during the past 12 months, we have both seen you sign SATCOM orders on Ovzon 3 as well as third-party capacity. Is the aim -- main aim going forward to prioritize orders on Ovzon 3? Or could future orders here in the relatively near term also relate to third-party capacity?

It could relate to third-party capacity as well. It actually depends on where the customer is in the world, right? So Ovzon 3 is situated in an orbital position at 59.7 East, which is over the Horn of Africa. So it covers a good chunk of 1/3 of earth and can actually go also up towards the Arctic in coverage, which we have tested. So we have -- if customers are in that area and they want the specificity of Ovzon 3 and the uniqueness, we will go for Ovzon 3 there. If they are in other areas, we will have to rely upon third-party capacity. So I think you will continue to see a mix of all of that in it. But there is quite some interest in the uniqueness of Ovzon 3 with the onboard processor due to latency, speed, performance and mobility.

Perfect. And the recent NATO order that you signed or at least with a NATO customer, had this previously been a pilot customer? I'm trying to grasp the relatively short time frame of 6 months here. And if -- to understand if this is a first step with this customer, also taking, of course, the large share of terminal orders or part of this specific order in consideration.

Yes, excellent question. I think you should see it in the -- I would portray it in the following way. The more customers collaborate and do exercises together or mission-critical things together, the more reference points matters. So while it might not have been a pilot customer, it might be that a customer -- one customer has seen what another one has and in order for them to have combined connectivity, that drives -- that has driven this decision basically.

Very interesting. And just a final question, if I may. In Sweden, we have recently seen some positive news about more funds being allocated from the Swedish government to satellites. My impression is that the recent news are not specifically linked to your niche, but could you talk about some of the recent views from different governments and states on SATCOM?

Yes. I think it's become very clear that it's a critical aspect of a digitized defense, as I alluded to in the introduction here in the presentation. And I think the need then for guaranteed connectivity, SATCOM, becomes more imminent and the need is there, imminent and there right now. So I think that's the first trend that I see -- that we see. And then you have to decide what you want to use it for. There are several use cases. One could be surveillance. One is pure video footage, et cetera. There are capabilities, so-called SAR satellites that can do that. They might actually need a mother ship, if we call it that, like an Ovzon 3 in order to reduce the latency and get faster performance on that. So I think in combination, these things are important. That's an architecture of utilizing the most advanced capabilities in space for a communication, surveillance and data and information architecture for a digitized defense today.

And let's welcome in Finn Kemper at Cantor Fitzgerald. [Operator Instructions]

Congrats on this very successful quarter. So I mean, lots of the things I wanted to ask were already covered. But one follow-up to Simon also is, I mean, if we assume that demand remains strong now and Ovzon 3 approaches full capacity utilization, how should we think about growth beyond that point, let's say, 2028, I mean, assuming that building a satellite takes 2 to 3 years. I mean, incremental top line growth should then primarily come from third-party capacity. But how should we think about the margin profile and top line growth rates in such a scenario compared to today?

Yes. Very good question, Finn. Thank you, and good to see you as well. I think you should think about it in the way you described it. I think we are after maximizing the utilization of Ovzon 3 and we complement that and have always done so with third-party capacity. So we will use third-party capacity for that. I think there's a third dimension that are still in its early stages, but that is also how you combine the usage of low Earth orbit capabilities and geo capabilities, meaning that where we operate in space. And I think we have -- there is more to explore and exploit there in order to build a full communication solution. So I think with those customers that we have where we are in deeper discussions that might already operate in with us and they're looking at a broader generic communication solution with LEO, that is something -- it will take a little time. But I think that there is -- the solution will include multi-orbit capabilities, our specific Ovzon 3 and also third party in combination with both of those. So I think that helps us also to have a growth prospect quite beyond just Ovzon 3 or just third-party capacity. I think there will be a combination of things that are going to happen as also the customers and the market matures in the usage of SATCOM capabilities for specific use cases.

And also, I think one should not forget that we are also selling terminals. So I mean, that's a revenue stream as well that we see have momentum as well as you need more capabilities.

Okay. Great. One more question maybe on cash generation. So you said that there were some working capital headwinds. Maybe you can help us understand what specifically drove these headwinds. Was it primarily timing of customer payments, inventory build for the terminal deliveries or maybe something else. And as volumes then further scale in 2026, how should we maybe think of structural working capital intensity for this year?

Sure. The headwinds I talked about that was on currency impacts, translation impacts that are unrecognized in the EPS. So for -- it's definitely not connected to the working capital where we see tailwinds rather of -- first of all, the strong performance from the operations and then we have progressive payment terms, and we see that looking -- glancing into the future, we see that, that is likely to continue for quite some time.

Thank you so much, Finn. And let's sum up and read up some of the questions from investors. And let me start off by how does the current change in geopolitical alliances affect your overall business strategy?

Good question. Number one, I would say we've always been -- we are a Swedish company. Therefore, our home market is Sweden. Therefore, also Sweden's entry into NATO meant that the collaboration in the near area is important and the collaboration and the trend we see with America First and maybe European sovereignty also drives our focus to Sweden, the near area, Europe and the U.S. And I would say North America maybe in that sense. So I think it doesn't change at all really what we have done, but it might change our focus on penetrating certain markets and areas where we see collaboration is more natural and flowing faster than trying to go after everything at the same time. So we remain focused, Sweden, the near area, Europe, North America, including the U.S.

Which measures do or can you do to take to minimize the risk of having customers at odds with each other?

At odds with each other, quite interesting. Well, first of all, we follow the Swedish state department rules of which countries we do business with. That should minimize the friction without question, I would say. We also follow the U.S. Department of State for that matter as well. They might be somewhat different at times. So I think we're staying very true to those that are more allies if we go -- if you take the basis that we're a Swedish company and operating in Sweden. So I don't see that as a -- I don't see that as a big risk and issue. The friends and the allies and the work that's been done in 2025 between those, specifically in Europe are very, very clear. Some of them are our customers, some of them are not our customers. And therefore, they are on our list of presented customers.

And a question to Andre. You make around SEK 160 million in free cash flow during Q4, excluding changes in working capital. What do you expect the run rate to be in 2026. And by how many million Swedish kronas is Q4 boosted compared to other quarters?

Yes, it's a good question. And it's a bit difficult to answer actually because it all depends on -- I mean, the free cash flow is operating cash flow and then you deduct for investments. And as we have investment plans that are not really decided yet, but we're looking into that. So it could be that the free cash flow is extremely strong or we start then investing into additional satellites and then it will be still pretty decent, but it -- I mean more investment in satellites for future growth will eat some of that free cash flow.

And you touched upon this during the analyst call. But when can you outline the path towards Ovzon 4 or other new satellites?

I think we'll sum it up in the following way. We are actively working and evaluating all those aspects, as I said, when it comes to technology, capability, financing and so on of it. We do see that demand is there. So we're trying to do that as quickly as we possibly can. I think this year is an important year in determining the business plan for that going forward.

Okay. And one last question that I have here now. How -- what's your view on competition and also competition within our area geographically?

Yes. I think competition is good. It drives innovation and it drives sharpness in what you do. I think there are more complementary capabilities in general in the domain or the unique position we are in rather than anything else. I would say the following. We do not really have a direct competition, but there are complementary things that is required for digital defense, cybersecurity, encryption, resilient communication, more data, so higher data feeds, but more security, more mobility, smaller terminals that can be used in unmanned areas. So I think it's more coopetition than competition that is the name of the game. And I do believe that there is an opportunity for us also to work more with the larger original equipment manufacturers, OEMs in ensuring that there is connectivity on vessels and on those type of solutions that are actually mobile for a digitized defense. So I would -- and I will end with. I did mention low Earth orbit capabilities. We do not see it as a competition. We see it as a complementary. And I think most countries and defense organizations are looking at it the same way. So you use low Earth orbit capabilities for a certain aspect of your operation, and you then need Ovzon to drive your mission-critical operations.

Okay. Per Noren, Andre Lofgren, thank you so much for today's presentation and all the answers in the Q&A. It will be very exciting and interesting to follow and see how you will perform 2026 from this new position that you might say that Ovzon have elevated to. And thank you all participating investors and analysts. And by that, Per and Andre, thank you so much for today and good luck going forward.

Thank you, Mattias for a good session. Thank you.