PB Fintech Limited (POLICYBZR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

A very good evening, everybody. Very warm welcome to PB Fintech Limited Earnings Call Quarter 2 Financial Year 2025, 2026. Today, we have with us Mr. Yashish Dahiya, Chairman and Group CEO, PB Fintech; Mr. Alok Bansal, Executive Vice Chairman, PB Fintech; Mr. Sarbvir Singh, Joint Group CEO, PB Fintech; Ms. Santosh Agarwal, CEO, Paisabazaar; Mr. Mandeep Mehta, Group CFO, PB Fintech; and I'm Rasleen. I request Yashish for the introductory note.

Thank you, Rasleen. Before I start, I just wanted to share a very small incident. I think on 1st of September this year or 2nd of September this year, it was the last month of our quarter. It was announced that there would be a GST change on the 22nd. Any sane customer should not have bought any health policy or a term policy between 1st of September to 22nd of September. And I was obviously worried about what would happen. And I must totally congratulate our team, which had found solutions before 9:00 a.m. that day. And our sales on that day were not lower. And as you will notice, for that month were not lower. And I think that is what becomes a PB way, where execution is the key and execution happens in hours, not in any other sense. But I really wanted to thank all 23,000 of our employees once again for how they kept things up. And with that, I'll proceed to give the performance update for our quarter. Our total premium for the quarter is now INR 7,605 crores, up 40% year-on-year and 15% quarter-on-quarter, led by the online protection business, which is at 44% year-on-year, health being at 60%. Once again, please do take this with that backdrop of 1st to 22nd of September. But despite that, this is here. Consolidated revenue grew 38% year-on-year to INR 1,614 crores for the quarter. Core insurance revenue was up 36% year-on-year. Core credit revenue was down 22% year-on-year. However, it has bottomed out and our quarter-on-quarter core credit revenue was up 4%. And I just wanted to add, our quarter-on-quarter core disbursals growth was 9%. So the bottom out has happened. Our renewal trail revenue on a 12-month rolling basis, INR 770 crores. The Policybazaar side of it, the insurance core revenue has grown at 47% and overall, it's a 39% growth. The quarterly insurance renewals revenue is now at an ARR of INR 758 crores, which is up from INR 516 crores in Q2 last year. So that is a growth of INR 242 crores. That's just how the annual growth is kind of going on right now. This is a key driver of our long-term profit growth. Steady growth continues in the core insurance premiums, net of savings at 39% year-on-year. Savings continues to be stressed. I just wanted to say this is against a high base of Q2 last year. Q2 was our highest place last year. In fact, Q3 was almost 10% below Q2. So excluding the savings category, we have been growing between 35% to 45% very consistently for the last 10 quarters now. We continue to improve our customer onboarding and claim support services and insurance CSAT is consistently now above 90%. Our credit revenue for the quarter is INR 106 crores and disbursals is INR 2,280 crores for the core online business. We further strengthened our leadership in new initiatives with a revenue growth of 61% year-on-year. Adjusted EBITDA margins have moved from minus 12% to minus 4% with a 5% contribution. PB Partners, our agent aggregator platform, is clearly consolidating its leadership and accelerating its growth momentum. It now has over 380,000 advisers. It's not just in 19,000 pin codes, but it's really driving growth from Tier 4 and Tier 5 towns. It's clearly got the most diversified business lines out of all the players in the market today and have moved the business increasingly towards smaller and higher-quality advisers at a rapid pace. I think all of these things are really positioning it in a very, very clear leadership position, I would say, almost as big as the next two combined or something of that sort. Our UAE insurance premium grew 64% year-on-year and is clearly aligned towards health and life, very similar to our India business. It's also using the cross-border situation quite well, where basically when people retire, they retire into India. We have a unique value proposition on those kind of products, and the business is now consistently profitable for 3 quarters. Our consolidated PAT for PB Fintech grew 2.65x or 165% to INR 135 crores from 4% to 8%. I think it's a very important stat, which I feel quite strongly about. This is 1.77% of our insurance premium. I think that's -- effectively, that's how hard this category is. After 17 years, 18 years, we are in our 18th year, and we are able to get to about 1.77% of insurance premium as a profit pool. It will, of course, grow. This should kind of keep growing into the future, but that's where we are today. To summarize our performance since our public listing, we're always good to look at things now that 4 years are over. In these 4 years from Q2 '22 to Q2 '26, our revenue grew from INR 280 crores to INR 1,614 crores, about 6x, and that's a CAGR of 55%. And our PAT margin has gone from minus 73% to 8% positive overall for the entire business. Happy to take questions now.

We'll take the first question from Sachin Salgaonkar, BofA.

Congratulations Yashish and team for a great set of numbers. I have three questions. First question, a bit on clarification on how, or if there is any impact on the business post the GST cuts, what we saw from September 22. And this question is both on the consumer demand as well as on your commissions because we are hearing private insurance companies have reduced distributor commissions.

Okay. So, I think let's get to both these answers. I think demand has been very strong, and I would let Sarbvir answer that, but it's been extremely surprising and positive. And on the commission side, again, it's a complicated situation. And I wouldn't go with any of the media narratives or whatever you're hearing out there because they tend to kind of paint things in a black and white. There is -- we are a very large source of business, specifically health and term and fresh business. And our business quality is fairly superior compared to many other channels. There are multiple stakeholders here, insurers, us, regulators, governments, consumers, our employees. We are having very constructive conversations. It's not do this, do that. It's a very constructive conversation. And I feel we will end up in a good place where, let's see. But Sarbvir, do you want to speak about both the demand and the GST impact, please?

Yes, sure, Yashish. I think on the impact, 5th September and 22nd September were the biggest demand days, I can say, in the history of Policybazaar on both health and term as well as for actually other lines also. On 5th, of course, the conversion was not as good. But on 22nd, even the conversion was very, very good. So what we are seeing is that because of this a lot of dialogue about health insurance and term insurance and life insurance in general, there is a lot of demand and interest in the category. It is translating into higher conversion into bookings as well. So I think from a demand perspective, it's very good. October, which would have normally with Diwali, et cetera, can be subdued from an insurance perspective, I think was definitely we saw good lift because of this change. I think on the second question on the revenue, which I think Yashish has largely covered it. The only thing I just want to explain to everyone is that I know it's a matter of great speculation and intrigue. But actually, it's not so complicated. There are 3, 4 factors, right? What is the increase in business that we are seeing? What is the quality of business in terms of fresh, real fresh versus people who are already existing insurance customers. And the third thing is the sort of P&L impact of that for everybody, right? So, if you have high-quality fresh customers, the value of those customers to insurance companies is very high. So I think we are in a very, very constructive dialogue. And I think the fact that we have a relationship with insurance companies and we are not just, I would say, a distributor in that sense is really coming to the fore right now. And I think we are having these discussions. We are absolutely committed to working with everybody with all our partners. And I think if you hear the calls also, I think all the insurance companies have said the same thing. And we think this will leave the industry in a better position than where we started. And I think that's the key from our perspective.

Okay. So net-net, maybe not too much of an impact on distributor for commissions for you guys, maybe something here and there. But generally, it's a win-win for both to you and the insurance companies. Is that what we should expect going ahead?

I'll focus on the second part only. I would say that, yes, we want to ensure that it's a win-win for both. Actually, there are three parts to this thing. It's a triangle always, consumer, insurance company and Policybazaar. All three have to gain because otherwise, it's a zero-sum game, right? If you take something from one person, give it to the other. I think all three will gain, and that's what we are really focused.

My second question is on the sharp EBITDA margin and adjusted EBITDA margin improvement we saw in this quarter. And this is clearly led by momentum at the core online business. So the question out here is, should we see this momentum being sustainable? Because I remember Yashish mentioning in the last call that you guys are focusing more on revenue growth and margins is derivative and eventually follow, but we are also seeing margin growth being strong. So is this something which is sustainable going ahead?

I would not read anything into any margin growth, et cetera. Those things, I think they are just the same. See, our focus is very clear. Our focus is on growth. Yes, one quarter, you may see higher margin. See, look at it, right? Our total revenue for the quarter is about what about INR 1,640 crores. So even if that changes by 2% here or there, that is INR 32 crores positive or negative, right? What is 2%? It is 2 days of -- it's 1.5 days of revenue or some of that sort, right? So sometimes you may get some premium ahead, some payment later, do not read into margin movements on a quarterly basis. And that's the message I would give. It may be some spillover from previous quarter. It may be some spillover from next quarter. I don't know, right? But don't read too much into quarterly margin shifts. There has been nothing dramatic to change our contribution margin in the last quarter. It is just maybe some money came from some quarter here and there because you've always seen this 2% to 3% movement from one quarter to the other.

And there are cost below contribution line, which don't move as fast, obviously, grow fast. So you definitely get some benefit between contribution to EBITDA. But yes, as you said, tactically, we are focusing on growth and that drives everything else.

One month, you just, might have a higher issuance bucket, some months, some delay, some Sunday. Those kind of things can make some changes. So don't read too much into in 1 quarter, how much did the margin happen. I'm just trying to explain like INR 30 crores can shift with just 1.5 days.

And last question is it would be great to have an update on Pensionbazaar and PB Money in the last 3 months, how the business has scaled up? And should we see incremental investments into both these new initiatives?

Yes. So both PB Money and Pensionbazaar, there haven't been much incremental investments. I think all of it put together may not -- the total investment may be less than $0.5 million. So I wouldn't say that anything has happened yet. But maybe I'll just ask Sarbvir, if you want to talk about Pensionbazaar, or Santosh, you want to talk about PB Money?

No, I think, Sachin, it's a bit early to really say too much about Pensionbazaar. I think we are -- we've set up a small team. We are looking at various things. I think the good news, I would say, is that NPS is -- a lot of changes have come in the NPS scheme, and they're making it more, I would say, consumer-friendly. It's still a tough business. 15 years, you have to lock in your money, et cetera. But I think it's a very serious problem that we are trying to solve. And I think right now, we are focused on figuring out our way forward. And I think we'll have more to say as we go.

I think on both of these, we are actually at a drawing board stage here. On both PB Money and Pensionbazaar, we're at a drawing board stage. And that's our usual style in such things, right? Till we are sure about exactly how we're going to do it, we will stay at the drawing board stage. And at some point, we will become confident and move forward. PB Money is exactly the same thing. On the Paisa side, we want to have a more holistic offering. Besides just credit, we also want to have certain savings products, et cetera. But we are not moving aggressively on that yet. Right now, we're still testing. I don't know, Santosh if you want to say something.

Absolutely. I think PB Money we've been able to now put all persons investments one view, with deep insights we're giving consumers. Now monetizing that for savings products, of course, is the next step. But again, nothing major has happened yet. We're doing some of the products we've launched bonds and deposits, but very early stage.

See, here's some guidance if you want to hear it. On both Pensionbazaar and PB Money, don't expect anything from a results perspective, at least for a year. I think we are in a drawing board stage, and any scale that happens will be irrelevant compared to the scale of our other businesses. But at the same time, here, one more thing, we are deeply committed to both. Sometimes you'll be very deeply committed to something, but not act on it immediately because you don't know exactly how you will act. And both Pensionbazaar and PB Money are at that stage. So we do believe Pension is a very big problem in India, and there will be some solution. We don't know exactly what yet. And similar with PB Money, I think our customers need a more holistic solution. We will figure out exactly how to do it.

We'll take the next question from Sachin Dixit, JM Financial.

Also on both of them, don't expect any significant loss or anything also either. So it's not like we are investing a lot of money in any one of them in the early stages.

We'll take the next question from Sachin Dixit from JM Financial.

Yashish and team, congratulations on a great set of results again. So I had a couple of questions. My first question was on this piece with regards to cross-sell, right? So with GST exemption being there on your renewal book as well and you already are sitting on a decently large term and health book, do you think there is opportunity and if you have seen any evidence of that in October, please let us know. So do you think there's substantial opportunity to cross-sell or upsell to the same customers who are renewing premium considering that their overall payments are declining thanks to GST cut?

I think, Sachin, if I understand your question, basically, what is going to happen is that in health renewal, especially, people will see a lower price or a much more attractive price as compared to what they would have seen with GST. So our objective, and it's again early days yet, but our objective is to significantly try to build up our renewal rate. And we measure renewal rate on the basis of number of policies because number of customers is what really matters. So our first priority is to increase renewal rates both first year as well as second year onwards. Second priority is what you are, I think, referring to, which is to try to cross-sell some more products to increase the value of the customer, et cetera. But I would say that it's a second priority. Our first priority actually is to increase the renewal rate because if you think about it, the more customers we can carry into the future actually has a very high outcome and very high value versus just trying to increase first year premium and have fewer customers going forward. So that's what we are trying to do. And we believe that the nature of products, we have spoken about it, that the nature of health insurance products with a higher cumulative bonus is also favorable. And now with this change, I think we should be able to drive even higher persistency. I mean that's really what our focus is.

Understood. So, where I was coming from largely was if you look at, for example, term, right, a lot of people might be investing in term, thanks to 80C benefit as well, and they already have a defined amount in their mind on which they need benefit. So in case that number, thanks to the 18% cut becomes lower, do you think you will be able to sell more rather than the customer actually paying just a lesser amount?

Yes, yes, absolutely. So in term insurance, what we are trying to do is that we are telling people that INR 1 crore is our most popular price point. We are saying that you should buy INR 1.5 crores because as we've calculated for most people, it's like INR 100 a month extra, and you can get INR 1.5 crores instead of INR 1 crores. So we are actually trying to increase the sum assured in term and say that, look, this is a great opportunity for you and you should buy more sum assured. Again, these are slow burns. It's not really easy to drive these things very quickly, but this is a very calculated and I would say, very well oiled effort that we are making to try and drive this going forward. And let's see how it goes.

Got it. Sure. My second question is, Yashish, obviously mentioned like since that GST announcement came in, you guys figured out or at least the team figured out how to ensure that growth remains on track for September month as well as coming or going ahead. Can you talk about what were these initiatives? What did you do? How did you ensure that the growth did not fall apart after that?

No, the Master Chef never sells their secret sauce here.

Okay.

So I'll just leave it there. And honestly, there is no secret sauce here. Actually, it's just hard-working people. And they just get at it, they figure out solutions, they do it. And it's too much to be discussing on a call that exactly how, et cetera.

Sure, sure. Just one housekeeping question, if I may. On the premium slides that you have shared, right, you have also shared the premium calculated using GST exemption at the bottom. So if at some point of time, that becomes the norm, should we expect like step decline in the premium that you will show up on your report?

No. So from next quarter onwards, we will share the premium without GST, and it will be apples-to-apples. So the past will also be shown without GST.

We will revise it.

Whatever GST was there will be removed from the past as well. It is just for 8 days, we didn't want to do that entire exercise. Like it would just confuse people more than the benefit of 8 days of reduced GST.

We'll take the next question from Nidhesh Jain, Investec.

First question is on health insurance. So have you launched narrow network policies already? And if yes, what is the share of narrow network policies in the Health Insurance business.

We have launched, yes. With many of our partners, we have preferred network policies where, essentially, if you take a rider, which limits the network, you get a discount upfront. I think it's probably not necessary to talk about what percentage it is. It's a small percentage right now, in the order of 15%, 20%. And it will grow with time. But I think this is an area which we are very deeply interested in for many reasons. And I think this is an area where we will work to make it more and more valuable so that customers feel the value also of going to a narrow network. It should not just be a cost issue, it should also be a better experience when you go to a narrow network. So we are really focused on solving with our insurance partners, the second part of the problem as well. So we are focused on this one.

Sure, sir. And secondly, if you can share the contribution margin and EBITDA margin for the core credit business, for online credit business for the quarter.

The core credit business

Yes.

Maybe Rasleen can just share that offline, if that's okay. There are too many parameters there, credit cards, and secured lending, unsecured lending, getting a single number is very hard for such a large category. Yes, they're not very different from what people get in the market. But I'm sure Rasleen can share that offline.

We'll take the next question from Jayant Kharote, Axis Capital.

Congratulations to the team for a great set of results. The first question is slightly longer-term for Yashish. We see the slide where you mentioned PAT as a percentage of premium at 1.77%. While you clearly said you don't want to look at quarterly margin and profitability. If I were to slightly take a zoom out and look 3 to 5 years out, where do you see this number, let's say, by FY'30 or...

I think about 3% or so.

Okay. And this will take into factor the INR 1 trillion premium number that you're aspiring for.

Yes, the INR 1 trillion, obviously, there will be a bit of a change because of GST. But how much, whether it is delayed by 1 quarter or 2 quarters. See, I love this thing, guidance and all these words. I'm just talking from the heart, right? So in November '21 or whatever, whenever it was yes, I just said, yes, at some point, we'll make a certain amount of profit. Now I didn't know that was going to be guidance. But okay, it's a guidance, fine out there, right? And that's the same message that we again put out that, okay, in 2030, we would like -- these are our aspirations. These are what we can see. And I think to an extent, those numbers are put out there because at that time, they are not the norm in terms of the thought process. And then when they appear, people say, yes, this would have happened anyway. So, the INR 1 crore premium was -- not good anyway. Sarbvir is laughing. It doesn't happen anyway. It takes a lot of effort. But it is -- somewhere it's kind of comes out that way, right? So, the INR 1 lakh crore was in a similar vein. When I made that, I didn't know that GST would not be part of that INR 1 lakh crore. So yes, it may happen in 1 quarter later or 2 quarters later because there will be some impact of GST, maybe the 6% impact on our cumulative book. So yes, we'll see how that appears. But yes, the 3% -- yes, I think the 3% of that.

Great. The second question is linked to growth again. Now that I think savings on the base number were the largest for 2Q and moving into 3Q, 4Q, that base effect is going to wean off. Shall we assume now we will move back to our 30% plus growth trajectory for the foreseeable future? And am I correct that by the fourth quarter, savings was already negative for you last year?

Yes, savings was. But all I'm trying to say is that without savings, we've given the number very clearly. Without savings, we've been in that zone forever, like 10 quarters is a long time, and we don't anticipate that changing. But yes, we do believe that as we move into the next few quarters, the savings growth will naturally come back. Like, if you think about it, Q4 last year was already 20% below Q2. So, if we just do what we are doing, you will see a kind of decent growth anyway. And we are seeing growth, right? And actually, when I'm looking at the numbers, I'm seeing quarter-on-quarter growth in the savings business clearly and in the Paisa business. So, there's a lot of effort going in, in making that quarter-on-quarter growth come out.

Yes. Sir, if I could just squeeze in one last. I remember you passionately talking about child education and the pension problem that you want to solve. Is there any update? Is that part of the savings climbing in the way you had expected it to?

Yes. So, I think the pension category, we started about 3, 4 quarters ago. So, I think that continues to grow, I think, both sequentially and on a year-on-year basis. The child business, we have been doing for a while. It does grow. But I think we've also, I would say, broadened the appeal. So, the appeal was essentially that there's a waiver of premium feature that if the person dies, then the premiums are paid by the insurance company in place of that person, so that whatever goal you were saving for, in that case, children's education would be fulfilled. So we have extended that same benefit to all other things. So suppose you are saving for your house, you are saving for retirement. So let's say, if something happens to you, then your wife, your family would continue to get that amount of money. So I think we broadened the appeal, and we are continuing to drive that. Of course, right now, given that the overall business was soft in Q2, I think this part also didn't necessarily grow very dramatically. But it continues to be, I would say, a key sales pitch. And I would say it's a very real story. It's something that really differentiates ULIPs from mutual funds and other instruments.

We'll take the next question from Neeraj Toshniwal, UBS.

First question is contributions. We see contribution including staffing in Q2 despite...

Neeraj, you will have to come probably a little closer to the mic. We are not able to hear you.

So basically, the contribution seems to have improved despite health has been growing upwards of 60%. So what drove the change from Q1 to Q2 because health is still growing very fast and the contribution has surprised here. Second question is on the new initiatives. Looks to be very strong. If you can give more color on the same, are you now -- on the net take rate, are you leaving some bit of money there or still have contribution at 5% and we might see the journey a little while to have turn into profitability. So any timelines to that will be helpful. And third would be the breakdown of the premium in new initiatives, renewals and all those numbers, if you can share that would be helpful.

Neeraj, can you please repeat your first and third questions again?

So the first question was on the contribution margin. The contribution looks very strong despite health growing very fast. So just wanted what changed from Q1 to Q2?

Understood. So it's contribution margin despite health...

That I think I answered that it may just be some extra issuance may have happened this quarter, some extra payment may have happened this quarter. All I'm saying is always assume that 2, 3 days of payments can move from one quarter to the other. So, always, as long as it's INR 30 crores to INR 40 crores moving from one quarter to the other, don't take it too seriously because on an INR 1,600 crore thing, that was really the explanation. Yes, you are absolutely right, for those who may not be aware, Fresh health does move at about minus 20%. So every time we do fresh health, our margins get pushed down. In fact, we make a loss, clearly at the contribution level itself. But when the renewals are growing just as fast. So renewals are also growing at about 50% or so.

The only thing I would add there is, I think it's best to look at it on a rolling 4-quarter basis.

That's correct, yes.

The only little bit of element in Q2 was that if you see Q1 through Q2, health renewal growth was stronger in Q2 than in Q1. But again, I think all these are small, small pieces which move up and down every quarter.

I think what Sarbvir said just now was the most important thing. That's why we put out the 12-month rolling piece. Always look at that one. That is the most kind of, yes, backward-looking because its 12 months are over. So it's kind of a bit dated, but that's almost the best way of looking at our business. It takes out seasonality and takes out these quarter-on-quarter movements also.

Got it. And some of the new initiatives, you can give more color in terms the kind of growth you're seeing?

Yes. I think one of the things, that we are seeing on the PoSP side, if you see the growth actually accelerated in this quarter. We grew at 55%, 56% in this quarter. And I think what is happening is that, one is we are going deeper into the countryside. We are going to smaller and smaller towns. We have expanded by investing behind increasing our team, et cetera. And obviously, we are recruiting more agents, more granular business is coming. And I think the second thing that we are seeing is that a little bit of the industry structure is also favoring us. We are actually right now the most focused organization on the PoSP side. We've always explained that we bring a huge amount of, I would say, focus and capability to the table. Some of our peers in that business are going through their own some kind of corporate actions, and some are focused on other matters. So what is really happening is that our team is able to drive very effectively. And I think this is very, very heartening because 4 years into the project, we are now growing at 55% on a very high base. So I think that's really heartening. And I think if I understood your question also, that this bodes very well for improving the economics of the business as well. Profitability, et cetera, is a different thing, but I think the economics of the business are improving with scale. And I think the delta between PB Partners and other peers is increasing very rapidly now every quarter.

In terms of net take rate, when can we turn that even and get starting -- making profits out of it?

Are you -- is the question that when does the PoSP business become profitable? Is that the question? I'm trying to decipher the question.

Yes. So timeline...

I think next year, our hope is that the PoSP business in the normal course of things may not have much of a loss -- may not have any meaningful loss. But you know what, we don't want to commit to that because we will play this strategically. We are very good at execution, and we are very focused on winning, and adding value to the customers and our partners. So we will do whatever feels right at that point, which could be anything. But yes, in the normal course of things, I think our losses should be meaningless next year.

One last question on the bookkeeping, if you could break down the PB Partners, Corporate and new business scope.

Yes. So for PoSP it was about INR 1,700 crores, about INR 415 crores for UAE and Corporate was INR 230 crores.

And new business and renewals?

Very similar for core policy.

We take the next question from Dipanjan Ghosh, Citi.

So just one or two questions from my side. First, Yashish, obviously, to one of the previous participant's question, you mentioned that maybe somewhere around 2030, maybe plus/minus a few quarters, you aim to take the profitability number to, let's say, 3% of premiums. But on the flip side, you also mentioned that you want to sustain growth on the PoSP and the new initiatives and not lose out on the opportunity. Now we would presume that even 4, 5 years out, these businesses would probably not operate at a margin where your core business operates. So, let's say, when you kind of visualize this 3% of premiums, how are you really extrapolating, let's say, the growth in the core versus the new initiatives? And I mean does that have an implication on this 3% number in case the growth rates across these two segments were to slip or change?

Yes. So my expectation is PoSP is reaching a point as a channel where I think future growth rates are going to be similar to or -- I don't think the share shift will be too much from here. But there is also -- see, we invest when we do health business, we lose money. And that is why there is a reward in terms of renewal premiums. There could be two ways of paying for anything, right? Somebody could say, okay, you will be paid upfront, like happens in life insurance or somebody could say you will be paid annually, like happens in health insurance or motor insurance, or general insurance business. So there, we have that renewal advantage. And the renewals part is always a little more predictable, Dipanjan, than the fresh business. I was just talking to Sarbvir before this meeting, and I was saying in fresh business, even 0% growth is an achievement because it is actually hunting every year, right? Because people have to come in, you have to convince them to buy. And that is why we add a lot of value along with our partners to the industry in bringing fresh customers to the market, both in health and term. Motor at least they have to buy. So they will buy from somewhere. But health and term, people don't have to buy, right? So I think -- but the reward we receive for putting in that effort and actually making a loss in the first year is the renewals, and that becomes a predictable source. So yes, I do think that is what explains it a little more than what the PoSP explains it. And I think PoSP will be a similar share as we go forward. So see, when I say this number, it is a very robust number. It doesn't change very easily. These numbers don't change very easily. Just like our 2027 guidance was a fairly robust number. It can't change too much. You can't change it by more than 10%, 20% here or there.

And Dipanjan the hope is -- I mean, we are not saying 3% or 2.5%, 3.5%. What we want to achieve and work towards is INR 1 trillion, maybe INR 1 lakh crores of premium.

Yes, this is not our objective. Our objective is the INR 1 trillion premium. This is a byproduct. But if you do that much, I think maybe the industry wants to pay you a little bit, right? Maybe you make a couple of percentage points of profit also. Otherwise, why would we be doing all this, might as well go home.

No, absolutely. I mean, sorry, just two small questions on this. One, in the PoSP business, I mean, is the mix still predominantly inclined towards motor because you mentioned that you have diversified and probably on the PoSP side, you're probably one of the most diversified companies as on date. So one is, how has the diversification progress been? And second, on that line, is the contours of the contract or profitability of the products on PoSP similar across motor and non-motor? And last question is more on -- is basically on the pension or the savings business ex of, let's say, the linked -- pure linked business. I mean what is the strategy to really scale up the hybrid model? Because I would presume that, that would be one of the levers to really scale up the pension category as a segment and its related other businesses.

Yes. So I'll just take them one by one. I think in terms of PoSP, motor continues to be the, obviously, a large -- majority of the business. We are the most diversified in terms of having other lines of business, life, health and other stuff. The reason if I were to look at it right now, I would say -- actually the motor business is responsible for driving the growth that we are seeing, I would say, above average growth that we are seeing. In terms of the shape of the P&L, motor tends to have a little lower retention, but also lower cost. Life and health tend to have higher retention, but you also need to invest in them. So net-net, I don't think there is that much difference at the EBITDA level. And our thought process is -- see, our thought process is actually not -- in that business is not focused on product. It's focused on the agent because our agent is our partner. We have to improve the earnings of the agent. If the agent earns more money by working with PB Partners, he or she will stay with us longer, and they will see greater value with us. So that is, I think, the crux of the discussion, and that's what we are trying to achieve. That to give them an earnings opportunity, which is superior to what they may be able to do anywhere else. And, if you ask me honestly, that's what is winning.

And have the agents trust. One of the things you will hear as you go around the market, if anybody does the due diligence is that Policybazaar always pays, pays on time, those kind of things, right? And I think that is what people -- does not snatch people's customers, does not try to steal the renewals, does not try to cut them out of the renewals commission, et cetera. Those kind of things you will hear in the market. And I think that is one of the reasons why people are starting to gravitate towards us. So eventually, it's a game of trust here.

Absolutely. I think on the second thing in terms of the savings business, yes, absolutely, hybrid has been a driver of our growth. So we had done the top, I would say, 10, 12 cities earlier. Now what we are trying to do is we are pushing into the next, I would say, 15 to 20 cities where we are trying similar models. We have to manage that in a lower cost because we can't put that many number of advisers in each of those cities. But we are doing that. I think we are working on 20 cities right now. And that is also -- that project is also slowly gaining traction. So I think, yes, savings will require a hybrid approach. Customers like to meet people face-to-face. They want to understand the products taking time. And I think that's something that we will continue to keep driving as we go forward.

We'll take the next question from Kushagra Goel, CLSA.

Congratulations on a wonderful set of numbers. I just have one question now. So there was a sharp increase in the other expense line item this quarter. So just wanted to understand what exactly sits here and how to think about this going forward?

Just give us a second here. Could you kind of try to highlight the number or something because we can't see this sharp increase story.

So it's 29% sequentially Q-o-Q and about 67% Y-o-Y.

Where do you see 29%, which is the other expenses?

INR 592 crores.

I think this is maybe some point of sales presence commissions. That is what is perhaps showing up here. So maybe as the business has expanded, that is showing under other expenses. I don't know right classification or not, but...

Maybe that PoSP business.

Yes, but it's really that.

Okay. So it's linked to the PoSP business.

Yes.

We'll take the next question from Manas Agrawal, Bernstein.

Two questions and two clarifications. First question is, let's say, hypothetically, if something was to happen on take rate compression and then there is a volume offset, which is a favorable move. What kind of cost levers do you have in the next coming quarters to protect your margins for the year, let's say? So that's question one. Question two is, as part of these negotiations around take rate, since a lot of your profitability comes from the renewal book, is there a distortion between how take rates are being negotiated on new versus renewal? And does it change your renewal-led profit buildup in any shape or form? Those are two questions. From a clarification perspective, if we are saying that GWP includes GST, that basically means your take rates are actually higher than what we've optically seen them to be. And I wanted to understand narrow network policies, is this your PB Health policies or that is same concept, but yet to be launched? That is it.

So very quick answers, first of all, and I'm sure Sarbvir will also pitch in on this. Look, in reality, our conversations with most insurers are not as shallow as this is your commission, take it or leave it or anything of that sort. It is much more around operating ratios, the quality of the book around how fast we are growing. And if you notice across channels, what you would notice is our fresh growth, growth I'm talking about is very, very high. Our percentage of the fresh is much higher than our percentage of renewal. And we and our partners are very aware of our operating ratios, our combined operating ratio, which is actually far more favorable than many other channels. And it's only fair that if somebody is growing for you faster, doing higher fresh business is also doing good quality business, which implies our claims settlement rate is much higher, which is actually a very big positive for insurers because if your claim settlement rate is higher, your complaints are lower. The customer distress is much lower. By the way, we also -- when companies do well on the Policybazaar platform, there's also direct traffic creation, which builds direct business for insurance. So it's a little more complicated conversation than -- we're not just a distributor. It's a distributor, a marketeer, a claims partner. We're a partner in every sense. So our conversations are there. And we don't want to comment in the market about which way these are going to end, et cetera. It's like asking Trump what he's going to do tomorrow, right? He do tomorrow what makes sense tomorrow, right? And I think we want to keep our conversations with our partners, which are very constructive in a closed room. At this point, generally, we don't think anybody needs to worry about this too much is the broad answer we would give. But I'd say, yes, I don't know. On the narrow network, yes, the entire thought process is the same. PB Health is just a word. But yes, the thought process is same. But Sarbvir, do you want to add?

No, no. Actually, I have nothing to add on the GST thing. The only thing, again, I'll just repeat, we have a relationship with insurance companies. And in a relationship, you work things out between the two partners and you do not talk about it too much in public. So I think that's what we are also doing. On the cost side, I would say that, please understand that we are focused on cost efficiency in any case. It's not like because today, commissions, whatever something has happened on GST, so we should now look at our costs. We look at...

Yes. We started this whole approach years ago.

Yes. We look at our costs on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. And actually hidden in a lot of the overall stuff is that our marketing efficiency has improved quite dramatically over the years, whether it is the proportion of direct traffic that we are able to bring to the platform, whether it is the fact that we have built our own in-house -- being able to leverage our own customer base more effectively. I think our, what we call our growth business that now has become a big contributor to our fresh business. It used to be almost nothing. So I think we have focused a lot on marketing efficiency, we focus a lot on call center efficiency, we focus a lot on improving the productivity of our advisers. So I think that again, irrespective of what is happening, we focus very heavily, and I think we achieve good outcomes there also. So I think that's where I would leave the discussion at. I think on the network products right now, as and when PB health hospitals come online, we will obviously leverage them also. But right now, we are leveraging the existing hospital network that are there and working on that. And I think that's kind of where we are. And I think you did ask that if the GST is removed from the premium, then yes, obviously, optically, our take rate will look higher than it used to look earlier.

And I just wanted to say one thing. Sometimes in the media it is portrayed like this is some kind of commodity that anybody can bring health customers or term customers to the market. See, remember, with 17, 18 years of effort, a lot of hard work, a lot of brand build, a lot of direct traffic, with all those things and everything we are doing, of the premium, we are able to make 1.77% at our scale. So this is not an easy thing that anybody can just -- that, it's like, I'll give you an example, right? Suppose I wanted to get traffic from Google for health insurance. There's only a limited amount I can get. That's it. I'll be willing to spend 10x that money, but I will not get more traffic. So to some extent, it is a pretty rare commodity. And we are very fair partners and our partners are very fair to us, right? And we are working things through. So I don't think it's as simple.

We'll take the next question from Madhukar Ladha, Nuvama.

Congratulations on a great set of numbers. So I have three questions actually. First, on the adjusted EBITDA margins, also, obviously, we're seeing a pretty good improvement. But if I look at the indirect costs, like the cost sitting between contribution and adjusted EBITDA, that also seem to be well contained. I wanted to get some sense of how should we be looking at this number on a sort of quarterly basis, annual basis, what are the components of here? And what sort of growth, let's say, even annually, if we were to look at this number, how should we think about this? Because that will help us run our adjusted EBITDA sort of calculations more clearly. Second, see, last quarter, I think you had given a number of sort of Paisabazaar margins of minus 20% that is the EBITDA margin. So can you give a similar number for this quarter or the first half? So that's my second question. And finally, if you could just give me, I think you did mention these numbers, but if you could repeat what are the renewal premium numbers for PoSP corporate and UAE separately, that would be helpful.

A lot of questions there, but good. I think when you look at operating cost, specifically fixed costs, brand, other people, other office costs, central cost allocations. How do I say this? We are doing a lot of innovation. We are doing a lot of new segments, a lot of new products, a lot of those things. And thus a lot of experimentation is going on across the organization. And at an early stage, like whenever you start a new BU or a new sub-BU, it takes a lot of effort. There's a certain amount of -- and it takes a while before it scales up. And so we've been doing a lot of that simply because our focus has been on growth. Our focus, I've repeated this many times over the last 3, 4 years, and I think by now, you would have seen enough proof of it. Our focus is not to become -- see, there are two stages an organization can be in. It can try to maximize profits or it can drive growth. Usually, both of these don't go together. And we are in that zone where we are trying to expand. Eventually, we will have enough to take care of all these costs, and that's our approach. In terms of growth rates, they should stay similar to what they have been over the past, maybe a little lower as we progress on the fixed cost side. And again, now coming to margins on the Paisa side, we don't want to comment on this. There's been a slight improvement. I don't want to be exact about the number. I know we were exact last quarter. There has been an improvement, but the improvement is limited. So it's not like a marked improvement. And I'll leave it there. Brand is mostly constant for a few quarters. So I think that should give you enough information. If there's more than that required, then you just check with Rasleen or something like that.

On the renewal piece in the new initiatives, we have about INR 180 crores for PB Partners, about INR 110 crores for UAE and about INR 300 crores for the corporate business.

We'll take the next question from Shreya from Nomura.

Congratulations on a great set of numbers. I have two questions. First is on the motor piece. So quite interesting that your PoSP book actually grew very well in the quarter and assuming similar trend in October because we know that the car sales and vehicle sales has been going very strong. But surprising that the PoSP actually attracts a lot more fresh premiums on the motor side. So some color on whether PoSP model is a better suited model for cracking the fresh motor business. That's my first question.

Shreya, I think by fresh motor, you mean new cars, then frankly speaking, neither PoSP nor our B2C business actually have very high amount of business coming from new cars. The growth that we saw in Q2 was not driven by new cars, but by actually overall growing our market share, I would say, in the PoSP business. And it continues to be a mix of, like I said, growth in distribution, I mean, going to areas that we were not present in and increasing the share that we are getting from areas that we are already present in. I think it is largely that which has driven it till Q2. You are correct in saying that in October, typically, in the Diwali month, there is a higher degree of new car business, et cetera. But for us, actually, that is not a key driver of the business. It's largely the stock of cars and trucks and autos and school buses that are part of the business.

Okay. Okay. That makes sense. What is the overall motor segment growth, just like your protection has grown at 44%, health at 60%. What would it be for motor for the entire Policybazaar and PB Partners included?

The core business or the including PB Partners.

Including PB. Yes, the total premiums, including PB also.

Maybe about 40% or so.

Okay. Okay. Sure. My second question is you had mentioned that your INR 1 trillion premium can move by 1 to 2 quarters and all of those things. We have a guidance for next year also, which is your net profit guidance. Fair to assume that there also that INR 1,000 crores could move -- I mean, could get delayed or not get delayed? Any comment on that?

If there was a change, I would have said it.

Okay. Sure, sure. That's useful. And my last two questions are data keeping questions. I wanted the PB Connect revenue. That was INR 43 crores last quarter. So, whatever is the number this quarter? And have we defined the ESOP payouts going ahead because what you had shared some -- a couple of years back, but is there a new ESOP payout that you shared with us for the next two...

Sorry, the last question, but Santosh, do you want to just answer the...

Yes, the PB Connect revenue for quarter 2 is INR 66 crores, 53% up from last quarter.

Sorry, what was the last question, Shreya?

ESOP payout. So the ESOP payout...

They should stay similar now. As I said, they are now getting into -- see, what you are seeing in ESOP is we had an old scheme and a new scheme. The new scheme started last year and the old scheme is kind of going to be phasing out by '28. So what you're seeing is on one side, the costs are coming down and the other scheme, the costs are ramping up. But quite honestly, on an annual basis, you should not see much change. It should see very similar from here onwards.

We'll take the next question from Ashwin Mehta, AMBIT.

Congratulations on good set of numbers. Just two questions. One, if I look at your trial revenues in the credit side, there's been a fall and understandably so because of the slowness of that business. But as you build the incremental book here, what are the initiatives that have been taken to kind of possibly build a higher trail here? Or any sense in terms of that? And the second is in terms of any updates on the PB Health side, when do we start to see the first operations?

So, do you want to answer on the trail side?

So, on the trail side, we did see slowness. And see, I think the credit area is going through -- been going through a tough time and the NPA rates so higher than we thought were anticipated that led to some softening on the P&L side for the partners, and we kind of shared that burden and hence, you see softening of trial revenue. Going forward, we've doubled down on risk. We've doubled down on alternate data collection for consumers. So our ability to basically build quality of business for our partners is increasing as we move forward. And most of that will translate into better revenues being moving...

I think as we realized in Policybazaar, being a bucket shop distributor is not sufficient. You have to be more involved. You have to have more inputs into the process. And that is how you will earn properly into the future, but our renewals revenue got affected because our partners in general suffered. And it could not have been one way. So we shared in that. That was that. On PB health, see, I'll try to explain to everybody the way we are thinking about it. First of all, the narrow network is part of the strategy that, look, you have a narrower network, so you have fewer places. The second thing that is part of it is care pathways that if a customer is ill, they get appropriate care. So, whether it needs to be primary care, secondary care or tertiary care. And in the network, there are hospitals and care facilities that can take care of each one of those, so the customers are directed on that. And lastly, there's a technology and hospitals layer. And on that, I think the update is 4 facilities have been part acquired or part whatever. So, there's work going on, on that. But please appreciate these hospitals will just become part of that network. So eventually, it's about running a narrow network, which will over time be more and more let's say, more and more controlled or more and more integrated, but it's a slow move again. A bit like I said on pensions and PB Money, all these things will happen over time. Don't expect anything. The interesting part here is as those facilities become ready, I think the narrow network will come much before the facilities, the facilities just become the preferred part of the narrow network, if you would. And I think that's how you should see it. And there's obviously a lot of work going on in tech, et cetera. But for that, we'll have to have a totally different conversation.

We'll take the next question from Sanketh Godha, Avendus Spark.

Sir, my first question is on the noncontribution expenses, fixed costs. Basically, the growth in those costs naturally have come down probably improving the margins. So that number looks around 15% growth year-on-year, so for the half and not for the quarter 2. So just wanted to understand a bit of color on this number, how you see this to play out eventually, whether it will be in this range or you see it to grow at a much lower pace. So large part of the cost will be sitting only in contribution margins.

Did you say 15% or 50%.

15%

15%, yes it should stay about this. I think that's a fair -- what happens is people -- as I said, every time we start a new business, suppose in savings, we started a pensions category, right? And the pensions category requires a new BU head, it requires a new focus from a technology perspective. It needs new product people. It does all of those things. And that is really it. And we keep trying out new things, right? In health, we will have NRE, we will have old people. Our success is not just achieved just like that, right? We have all these narrow segments and thus, fixed cost goes into creating those segments and making success of those segments. Now once those segments scale, the fixed costs are less necessary also. And quite honestly, we're not focused on reducing them. So, 15% seems like a safe thing. I do not think it will be very different. It might be a little higher, a little lower. I think maybe between 15% to 20%. As long as we are giving the 30% fresh growth, I think 15%, 20% is okay. If we did not do that, then of course, this would come down. So, see, the management rule is quite straightforward. As long as a 30% fresh goes, let's not focus on the fixed cost side. Let's keep going. Once if we ever miss that, then on a consistent basis, not 1 quarter or something, but on a consistent basis, then we look at our cost side, and we act on that also.

But if I do a similar exercise for the new initiatives, 33% growth in fixed cost. So naturally, it should converge to the 15% number, what core is reporting right now, right? Because incremental cost...

See, if you look at the components of this indirect cost, there are three main components. One is the office and office overheads, which is quite closely linked to the number of people we have to hire. So that behaves more like a direct cost in nature. The second one is brand where as we had mentioned earlier in the call, it has become more constant sort of a number, maybe linked to inflation of the country. The third and very big part would be the whole support teams, IT teams, marketing teams, management teams. Obviously, there is an increment which is given. So blended, as Yashish said, you can take it to roughly half of the growth of the top line growth. And that's where we are comfortable today. And if things change, obviously, we will have a relook but we are very happy with roughly half the growth rate for indirect cost relative to the revenue growth rates.

This is very useful, and the second question I had was that your contribution margin on new initiatives is 5.5% for the quarter. So just if you can give a bit of color, this 5.5% whether -- how much is coming from PoSP or corporate or who is heavy lifting this 5.5 percentage number?

It's a combination. It's a combination of UAE, which is now a profitable business. And obviously, that profit has increased because last year, it was a loss-making business. Now for three quarters it has been a profitable business. I think corporate has been at pretty much the similar number in terms of burn and the PoSP has been reducing its burn, but obviously increasing its scale also. So it's a combination of all three that's coming through. But as of now, PoSP and corporate are still loss-making businesses. I think on an overall basis, if you look at all new initiatives put together, my hope is that next year and that is what we -- yes, so I think the whole idea is that 2027, our new initiatives should be very close to 0, is the whole thought process. And I don't see why it should be very different.

So basically, what you're trying to say is that at contribution level, PB corporate and PoSP are still loss-making and large part of that is driven by PB UAE. That's -- at contribution level, I mean to say.

It's a few things, right? PoSP has reduced losses but increased scale. So it's not 55%, but its losses are much lower than what it was last year. Whereas corporate has got less growth in scale and similar losses, while UAE has both grown and become profitable. So I think all three of them are a bit of a moving situation. And from a profit and loss perspective, they are not very dissimilar now. So PoSP used to overwhelm in terms of losses. Now it is not the case. But now they are all in the same zone in terms of both profits and losses.

And Sanketh, at contribution level, we are positive now on the initiatives. The initiatives are also one area where you have competitive intensity in all three, whether it's Dubai, whether it's corporate business or whether it's PoSP, and that competitive intensity keeps also going up and down, and we have to react to that as well. But directionally, I think we have managed to become unit economics positive a few quarters back, I think 2 or 3 quarters back in the new initiatives. But yes, if tomorrow, we start something like Pensionbazaar or PB Connect or something, that will also go into that. So we don't want to restrict the team that, okay, you have to break even only and then we will invest. I mean if we see any right opportunity, we'll invest. These numbers overall are going to be meaningless. So when we talk of INR 1,000 crores profit next year, whatever happens in new initiatives is not going to create a big delta either way, a minus 2% or plus 2% really doesn't matter.

See, already, if you look at it from a contribution perspective, new initiatives is less than 6%, 7%, maybe 7%, 7.5% of the total contribution. From a P&L perspective, it's 3%, 4% plus/minus of the entire adjusted EBITDA or even of the profit, right? So it's becoming meaningless in the sense of either as a contribution percentage or as a profit percentage compared to the core business and which is perhaps why you guys value the core business, right, that the core business has different mathematics as time progresses.

The reason I was asking this is that it means by FY '30 or FY '29, whether this business will become adjusted EBITDA positive entire new initiatives. That's the reason I was...

I said '27. I said not 2030. Next year, it should be very close to adjusted EBITDA 0.

Understood. And last two data keeping questions. One, can you quantify hybrid to the contribution of the core new business and which I believe you said 25% or 30% is previous quarter. And in this health growth, 60% growth or 65% growth previous quarter, how much contribution came from long-term plans?

How much contribution came from?

Long-term plans.

So the meaningful answer there is it hasn't changed dramatically from last year. There is no major year-on-year change. So look, I'll try to explain. This question has been asked many times that is there a trick behind this 60%, 70% growth that's been going on for the last, I would say, 8 quarters, 10 quarters? The simple answer we've always given is there is no trick. If there was a trick, the trick should have caught up with us by now because you can't play a trick over 2, 3 years continuously. And I hope, speaking out of turn here, but I hope we will very, very positively surprise you in Q3 with what comes out. So all I'm saying is there's no trick here. It's not like premiums have grown or multi-year has grown or anything of that. It's just we're adding new customers, that's it. And that's very valuable to all our partners, bringing in new customers, and we need the partners' help. The partners have also helped us a lot by giving us better products, giving, creating better products, creating better underwriting, settling more claims, all of that is part of the growth, which is why customers are increasingly choosing to utilize health insurance and term insurance.

So basically, when you told the narrow network contribution or product might pick up. So that can add one more extra layer of the growth to what you're delivering today? And if it is the case, anything you -- any number you have in your mind?

I'll explain in a simple way, Sanketh. I think from a distribution standpoint, we are by far and away, by far and away, not even a comparison. The most focused and the most scaled up players in terms of protection, health insurance and term insurance, you would all agree with that, right? You couldn't even name somebody else who would be nearly as focused. Now what does that mean? When you are focused on something, you're thinking about problems ahead. You're trying to create solutions for them before they become problems for you. And what are proofs of this, right? Getting into claims. If you look at our advertising for the last 3 years, a lot of it has been around claims, right? And of course, that is a differentiator today. We have a higher claims settlement rate while maintaining operating ratios for our customers. Narrow network is part of the same thing. The reason you are thinking about it is because you are very focused on this area. So you are creating solutions before time. The solution is very clear to anybody. It's obvious that narrow network should be able to reduce your cost because you have better control over the service. You should be able to deploy better SOPs with a narrow network than with a wide network. It's a pretty logical thing. But whoever will do it, why are just we doing it? For example, let me say, why isn't the bank doing this? While a bank is also a distributor of insurance or any other distributor of insurance, why are they not doing it? It perhaps because -- it's not because they don't have the money. It is because maybe this is not as critical to their survival and to their mission as it is for us. For us, this is critical. This is the reason we come to office every day is to make sure that more and more customers have health insurance and life insurance, they have a great experience. So I think it's just that. I don't think there's any other word to it than just focus.

And lastly, that data keeping question, hybrid as a percentage of the total new business...

Sanketh, it's about 25%. It's been in that range for a while.

We'll take the last question from Rahul Jain, Dolat Capital.

Most of it has been answered, but just I'm trying to make an effort in a different way. Just on the consistent improvement on the CM for the new initiative business, what I understand is that, the CM for PoSP business was supposed to be max out at 1% to 2% or maybe 3%. Does that remain the case even now or, and the bulk of the upside on the CM is coming from the other part of the new initiative? Or there is more potential for CM to go higher even in the PoSP part?

You guys all really want the answer, so I'll give you the answer only. The PoSP CM is 1%, it's exactly 1%, right? So yes, if we are at 5%, it's coming from other parts. The biggest contributor is that CM. Again, you want the answer, 85%, 90% of the CM is actually coming from the Dubai business. So that's the reality of it, right? So everything else on a CM is 0. It's the UAE business, which is getting the CM. And actually, UAE should not be a new initiative. Actually, you know what, from a classification perspective, what we'll actually do is UAE should be part of core because it is actually core business. There is no difference there. I think we should just separate out PoSP and everything else, maybe corporate, PoSP because these corporate business, PoSP have very different dynamics and our core business have very different dynamics. So if you segregate that out that way, it just might start making a lot more sense because I really don't see why UAE is a new initiative. It should actually be in existing. Because these dynamics are exactly like our core business. So as time progresses, we'll get more and more profitable.

Thank you, Rahul. I still see some hands being raised. In the interest of time, I request you to please send your questions to [email protected]. We shall get back to you as soon as possible. Thank you for your time.

Thank you very much for your attention. It's quite late in the evening. So really appreciate you attending and so many questions. Thank you so much.

Thank you.