PB Fintech Limited ($POLICYBZR)

A very good evening, everyone, and a very warm welcome to PB Fintech Limited Earnings Conference Call for Quarter 4 and Full Year Financial Year '26. Today, we have with us Mr. Yashish Dahiya, Chairman and Group CEO, PB Fintech; Mr. Alok Bansal, Executive Vice Chairman, PB Fintech; Mr. Sarbvir Singh, Joint Group CEO, PB Fintech; Ms. Santosh Agarwal, CEO, Paisabazaar; Mr. Mandeep Mehta, Group CFO, PB Fintech; and myself Mohit, Head of Investor Relations, PB Fintech. I now request Yashish for his introductory note.

Thanks very much, Mohit. Hi, everyone. Before I just start giving the numbers, which some of you may have already seen because the press release went out about 1.5 hours ago. See, we spent the last 2, 3 months just thinking a little harder about various data points, et cetera. And one of the things interesting pieces that we came up with -- came out with when you look at health insurance data over the last 10 years that we have had, customers who joined us 10 years ago and we explore that data more deeply, only 5% of these [ lives ], only 5%, hardly 100 customers bought insurance 10 years ago, only 5 of them use the claim more than once. Another about 8 or 10 use the claim once and the rest never claimed for 10 years. That won't take a long time. The remaining 85-odd customers you're talking about, and that represents about 67% of all insurance policies have no customer who has ever claimed for the last 10 years and have been paying premiums for a 10-year period. Those 67 do not interact with anybody. And usually, the one who's responsible for bringing these customers into the insurance fold is some kind of mandation. So if you look across the insurance industry, you will usually find customers buy products when they are mandated. But otherwise, it's a very difficult job to bring this 67% of policies into the insurance fold to pay premiums year-on-year without claiming for a single year over a 10-year period. And this is the job that is entrusted to the insurance industry. And I think this is the part every time somebody wakes up in the morning and tries to compare health insurance and term insurance with any other product in the -- like a mutual fund or even the insurance savings products, et cetera, I think they make this mistake that this 67% actually is not going to claim at all. Anyway, let's stop there. But that is our job, and that is what Policybazaar really, really specializes at, at bringing in that 67% of people who are not going to claim because without that, please appreciate that 5% of lives will simply not be able to afford their situation because even over a 10-year period, their claims ratios at a life level is almost 700%, 800%. At a policy level, it is about 300%. So they cannot afford these policies, right? They cannot afford their health care without the insurance policy. Coming to the results, we grew 42% year-on-year to almost INR 30,000 crores. I wish it was INR 30,000 crores, but it's INR 29,934 crores, led by new protection premium, which grew at 57% year-on-year. And the PAT is at INR 670 crores, which represents 2.2% of our premium. Now for the full year, our insurance premium obviously grew at 42%. But for the quarter, it grew at 46% year-on-year. So what I'm trying to say is as we get towards the end of the year, the speed has increased a little bit. The core online insurance premium is up 39% for the year and the new protection premium is up 57% for the year. However, when you look at the same numbers on the quarter, they are 44% and 67% each. This -- obviously, the fact that the last 2 quarters was somewhat faster growth bodes well as we go forward and also because the savings business came out of a low cycle, you're starting to see some higher growth. The lending disbursal is also clearly in the positive territory now. We are up 11% year-on-year. Overall, the financials, the operating revenue is INR 6,794 crores. The operating revenue for the quarter is just about INR 2,000 crores. The new -- the overall protection business was up for the year 57%, health at 68%. So even in this 67% year-on-year story, health continues to be slightly ahead of the pack, which is a positive sign. But term is catching up fast. And as we look into the new year, term is certainly going to be challenging health. For the overall year, the consolidated operating profit -- operating revenues grew 37%. I think we've given you all these numbers. When we look at our core renewal revenues, as I explained why the quarter is doing better and why we feel confident about the financials for the coming years. As I said in the past, our renewals is a large contributor to our future growth of profits. But that has gone up for the last 12 months rolling from INR 668 crores to INR 935 crores, up INR 267 crores. And for the quarter, this is at an ARR of INR 1,126 crores, up from INR 689 crores. That's a growth of 63% year-on-year. And this is one of the key drivers, not the only driver, I must emphasize that the new business is also contributing to increasing profits and doing so very handsomely. The second part is the growth has been obviously accelerating. So as we said, net of savings, we look at one thing which is net of savings. Over the last few years, we've been in the 30% to 40% range, mostly around 35% but this quarter, we were at 59% year-on-year. That is basically savings coming into growth territory again. And including savings, we were at 48% year-on-year for the quarter for the new insurance premium. So again, new versus renewals, new is still outgrowing renewals and new health is outgrowing everything else. We continue to improve our customer onboarding and claims support and the insurance CSAT is now consistently above 90%. Even our Paisabazaar CSAT, which used to be at about 72% has finally reached about 90%, which is a very positive turn. Our credit revenue is up 7% year-on-year and the disbursal is up 11% year-on-year. However, I must emphasize Paisa has made very significant difference in the last 1 year in terms of the stability of its supplier base, in terms of the service that we provide as a platform. We are no longer just a redirection platform. We are increasingly an end-to-end platform and in terms of its customer service. So the 4 reasons why our business exists, it has improved remarkably on. Obviously, our new initiatives, as you've seen, have continued to do well. We -- our EBITDA is at minus 4% with a 5% contribution margin. We've grown at 43% year-on-year. However, I must emphasize new initiatives is no longer -- I don't know why we call it new anymore. It's about 3, 4 years old. They are -- okay, I'll speak a little slower. So the new initiatives is now growing pretty much at the same pace as the other businesses. So there is nothing very specific about the growth rate here. PB Partners has 450,000 advisers. And it is the most diversified business. 99% of the pin codes in the country are covered. Our UAE business grew 54% year-on-year. They have built their strength on the basis of cross-border health insurance and life insurance products as well as the claims assurance program, again, learning from Policybazaar in India and taking those learnings there and applying them beautifully. The consolidated PAT, as I said, grew -- yes, I've already said all this. To summarize, once in a while, it helps to look back at November '21 and now where we are. Our revenue has grown at a CAGR of 48% over this period over the last 4, 5 years. And our PAT has grown from minus 58% to plus 10% in the full year of 2026. I'll stop there and take questions, please.

[Operator Instructions] Hi [ Sachin ].

Congrats management on one more time a great set of results. I have a few questions. First question, I want to understand a bit more on what's driving the new insurance premium growth. It's as around 59% Y-o-Y in this quarter. Any color on some of the drivers in terms of the product mix, volume growth and so on and so forth? And more importantly, how could we think about this growth in coming years?

Yes, sure. So Sachin, I think the drivers of new insurance premium growth remain the same. I think health has been growing fairly rapidly. There was a little bit of a bump up that we got after September. I think after GST, in the last quarter also, if you saw, we did grow, I think, quite strongly. And in this quarter also, that growth continued. And I think it's on the basis of 2, 3 things. One is a superior product proposition. We have modular products, which allow us to segment the market and produce the most appropriate product for every person, whether you are young, old, you have pre-existing diseases, you are a non-resident Indian, et cetera. The second thing on the health side that we provide is a superior claims experience. I think increasingly, the confidence that both our sales advisers and the customers who come to Policybazaar have in this proposition that if you buy from Policybazaar, the chances of getting a claim becomes higher and higher, closer to 100%. I think this proposition is beginning to take root. And I believe this story has a long way to go because as you can imagine, this is the most important issue. I think on the term side, in Q4, we had a great quarter. I think the team has been bringing things together, and I think they all sort of came together in Q4. There was a little bit also that last year, fourth quarter was not as strong. So the comparison was also a little bit favorable. Savings, as Yashish mentioned, had not -- we had a little bit of a tough last 3, 4 quarters starting from Q4 of last year. So we returned back to growth. In fact, savings would have had an even better quarter in Q4, except that in March because of the situation in the Gulf, et cetera, the nonresident business definitely took a little bit of a hit in that way. And the other businesses, motor, 2-wheeler, travel, of course, was a little soft, but motor, 2-wheeler continued to grow. So I think overall, all the businesses, I would say, contributed. The drivers are the same. We got a little extra in Q4 in rent term and to some extent, in savings.

And in terms of steady-state growth, what could be the growth one could think about?

We always guide about 30%. We always beat that guidance.

Okay. Fair point. Okay. Second question, Yashish, your presentation does mention a lot on AI in terms of PB AI operating system. It's used across different functionalities, right from a risk to claims and to everything. Any way to quantify the margin benefits we could see on the back of AI implementation, not immediately, maybe from a medium-term perspective, the benefits of AI on the revenue and cost, how could one think about that?

I think, Sachin, the best way to think about it is that we are not actually right now, if you ask me in the stage where one is trying to optimize for cost and margin, et cetera. I think right now, we are in the stage where we want to make sure that we are leveraging AI in the best possible way. And we've tried to give you a flavor for that, which is to say that we are focused on increasing right now the productivity of our sales team, of our customer service team of making sure that our customers can get an amazing experience when they come to the platform. So I think right now, the focus is on these things. And obviously, we are trying a lot of experiments to see beyond this also on the frontier kind of stuff. So the idea, I would say, from an outside perspective is to make sure that we are doing all these things and delivering. And you can see that conversions have been going up quarter-on-quarter, year-on-year. It's always very hard to break it down as to how much is due to AI, how much is due to other things. But I would say, overall, what gives us optimism and hope for the future is that we -- I think all our teams, it's no longer a few people using AI or something. The entire company is on it and a lot of organic things are coming up, and we can see the productivity going up. Exactly what will happen 3 years from now, 5 years from now, I think that remains to be seen. My view is that over the long term, these things adjust. So the main thing for us remains to drive fresh growth. So if you ask me the structure of the P&L, I think is in -- if I could say it myself, is in pretty good shape. The main thing now is that we must continue to drive fresh growth, bring new customers to the insurance industry and service them rent. That's really our focus. So I'm not sure we are looking at this as some kind of margin driver going forward.

No, no, that's a very fair statement. And as you think about AI, and I'm not just talking about Policybazaar, but also the insurance industry, I think the biggest use case in the insurance industry is going to be risk, not efficiency. I think we are, as people more focused on the efficiency part, but the insurance industry is actually not about distribution, is actually about claims. And it's about cost of claims and underwriting and all those things. But -- and we -- like I'll give you an example, there will be 5% -- 5 out of 100 people who bought an insurance policy 10 years ago have ever made more than one claim. Now obviously, the next thing we want to know is, okay, how do we identify those 5 before they become those 5, right? Because that's appropriate pricing. And of course, AI is going to help a big time in that. Now at the point of claim, identifying whether a claim is right, I think that is the immediate and the most critical use case. The second use case is more about building our capability as people. And I think the answer is spot on. Our priorities, not for 1 year or 2 years, but for, I would say, the next 5 years and hopefully much longer is growth and customer excellence. See, those of you who see us from the outside in and maybe compare us to an Amazon or something might feel like, oh, what's so great about this customer excellence. But the moment you compare it to the industry dynamic and the complexity of the industry, I think we are phenomenal in customer excellence, and we have a very long way to go in that. So those 2 are the primary drivers. And as long as we keep driving on that, I think everything else will fall in place.

Got it. Very clear. Third question, Yashish, is on the growth and the new opportunities. Clearly, when we look at the kind of cash flows PB Fintech is going to generate in coming years, it's pretty huge. So when you think about growth and new opportunities, what are some of the areas of investments either in the current business or adjacencies we are looking? And a relative question is PB Health clearly is in the market to look to raise money. Is PB Fintech looking to invest in the next round?

So on both of them today, we are not exploring either as a Board or I can tell you as a management, any other growth opportunity. We have not come across any in the last 3 months, and we are not actively looking at anything. And we've not even discussed anything. I'm not even saying at a Board level, even at a management level. Number two, you asked about PB Health. Yes, PB Health is going to be raising capital. They will be close to that. They have not come to PB Fintech to raise capital yet.

Okay. But there remains a possibility PB Fintech might invest in PB Health at some point?

That has to come to the Board. And when it comes to the Board, yes, PB Fintech might consider it. It might -- it will have the right to do a pro rata. It has about 26%, 28% shareholding. It has the right to maintain that.

Got it. And last question, I would say, is any incremental discussion on any cap on commissions or tighter commission regulation. As you know, this was all around in media around 3 to 4 months back. But as of now, there appears to be no news flow in this topic.

No, no, the news flow even today. The media is much more active than either the regulator or the insurance industry. So nobody else knows, only the media knows. I think earlier you had only one. Now you have 2, 3 of them competing with each other for the same news flow.

But nothing from the regulator on this topic, right, basis your discussion with the regulator?

I haven't seen anything, neither have any of the insurance companies seen anything. I don't think most of the people in the regulator have also seen anything. The media has seen it. No, look, I think what we hear, I have to be a little less jovial about it, a little more -- it doesn't mean that we don't track. What we track is, I believe there are 2 different conversations that go on, actually multiple conversations that go on. One conversation that's been on in the life insurance industry is about some form of deferred revenues. We have -- we don't want to participate in that debate. We are very positive about it. If that happens, that's a very, very good thing for us. The second conversation that goes on is some kind of lower AUM structure in the health insurance industry. Once more, we welcome it. If it happens, we have no kind of comment to offer on this. The remaining conversations that you hear, we only hear from the media, honestly. We actually don't hear it from the regulator.

We will take the next question from the line of Jayant Kharote from Axis.

Congratulations to the whole team for once again delivering above expectation numbers. First question is on the margins. If you can help us break down the core business margins. I see this 25% meaning if Paisabazaar has turned around this quarter, then does that mean -- how does the Y-o-Y margin look in the insurance business? So basically if you could break down the margin movement in Paisabazaar and the core insurance?

I don't think we get into that level of detail. I don't know if we've done that historically. So we will simply avoid it, both are doing well. At the contribution level, both are doing well. And both are quite similar now at the contribution level. Yes, maybe insurance is a little better.

Has Paisabazaar turned around on EBITDA? Is it positive or is it?

So Paisabazaar on an operating basis is positive on EBITDA this quarter. And honestly, internally, at least, we expect it to be significantly positive next year. So we actually expect quite a strong year from Paisabazaar. I don't know, Santosh, if you want to speak a bit about it?

Yes. I think right now, quarter 4, I think the contribution margin is healthy. And at an EBITDA level, it is still miniscule I would say, very small. I think this financial year is positive, of course. This financial year, I think we should make a lot of progress. And I think we're seeing growth every quarter. That's all I would say. But for it to be meaningful, I think it's a while away.

So in Paisabazaar only if I could double click and maybe Santosh if you could help. See, the main issue has been that our fixed cost base is roughly in that range of INR 200 crores plus/minus. I don't know the exact number, but the revenues, unfortunately, have been facing some downward pressure, whether it's credit card issuances or whether it's even the take rates in unsecured, right? There is -- industry is having a lot of channels that are doing that. Of course, Paisa has had its moat, but there is a take rate directionally that's getting compressed. So where do you see that delta coming from? And again, while you are building new businesses, does it mean it's not adding up indirect costs on the balance sheet?

See, you rightly mentioned the numbers. The cost number are roughly similar, right? They stabilized. And I think what we will see the same operating leverage because of that. So the fixed cost absorption will be better. And as we scale, the margins will -- the PAT margins will improve. That's what we're expecting in this financial year. We are starting a few new initiatives, but those will not add to incremental costs. So I don't see the cost side increasing too much. As the revenue scale, the margins will improve.

And ma'am, is the renewal revenue improving or that continues to settle a little bit because of what has happened in cards?

So largely, Paisa has an origination revenue, renewal revenue is still not too significant. So most of what you see is onetime origination revenue.

So in fact, Jayant, we are moving away from -- so there was -- I know what you mean by renewal revenue is what we used to receive up to 1, 2 years ago. We still receive some component of that, but that's becoming less and less important. We are more and more focused on upfront payments rather than renewal revenue. However, as we move towards the savings business, some of it will appear. But honestly, probably from a revenue perspective and a meaningful revenue both at PB Fintech and even Paisabazaar level, you're probably talking not the next 2 years from a renewal revenue of that.

Great. And last question is on this whole -- while I know there is no consultation paper that is out there, but one hypothetical question to you, Yashish, if at all, there is some take rate reduction, we operate at a blended between 16% to 18% if there is a 50 bps, 100 bps. The only question is how much can we manage the [indiscernible].

I'll give you all the very, very straight answer as I see it, and you either accept it or don't accept it. See, if we were an insurance company, if Policybazaar was an insurance company. And I'm talking about health insurance because as I explained, you have to break this up, right? PoSP, what happens, honestly, doesn't matter to us. You know whether I say it or not, we do that business for different purposes, growth and whatever defensive play, et cetera, et cetera, right? But in the core business, if we talk about it, if you look at life, I think whatever happens, we will benefit because whenever you have deferral of payments, the larger, more consolidated players benefit because they are the ones who can play that game out very well. I think the story everybody may be worried about is health. And so let me address that. If Policybazaar was an insurance company, our total costs and the claims paid out on our book. And when I'm looking at a fully loaded delayed book are less than 80%. There is no insurance company in the country who can compete with that. So all I'm saying is we have the most profitable book in the industry by a 20% delta from the rest of the industry. So that 20% profit will go somewhere, whether to us or to the insurance company. And it will be a fair outcome, right, between us and the insurance players. How? You have to trust us. It can always take us 3 months, 6 months to put that in place, but that will come in place. Whether it comes through whichever mechanism it comes through, whether from a reinsurance, whether from a reinsurance broker, whether from a JV, whether from whatever mechanism it comes through, but it will come through. I also explained to you, and I think you guys should start catching the clues of what I'm trying to give. We know the 95% of customers who are not claiming. So I just leave it there. So I know the part of my book, which is operating at less than 10% claims ratio. It is visible to me. Those customers deal with me every year at every renewal. I'll stop there. You can just imagine the kind of situation. Please don't worry about my 16%. I take the 16% because I only want to take 16%. It's not because I can only get 16%. It's -- I'll park it there.

No, this is very helpful, Yashish. Sorry, just what I was asking was on the agent side, right, we have -- essentially, how much do you think we can pass on to the telephone -- I mean, the teleagent network with the AI also coming in, can we offset -- basically, I was trying to say, even if we were to take 30 bps, 40 bps, can we offset that through more IVR and teleagent pass on? Is that a right thought process or I shouldn't be thinking like that?

Jayant, I just want to be very upfront with you. It's not like that we are today not trying to be more productive because we are getting paid extra. I mean our teams are seriously working hard, and we will not leave anything. I mean it doesn't matter whether the commission goes up or down. We want to be more productive. So yes, I understand where you're going. I think Yashish was trying to indicate that the economics very much support the take rate that we get and we leave significant profitability for our partners also. So hopefully, as things work out and depending on where they go, I think it's kind of -- speculation is not required. Wherever we end up, we have a very high probability of being able to manage the economics. I think that's what the message we are trying to give you. But I do want to assure you that we are making every effort every day to be more productive and reduce costs, whether through AI and all other routes available to us.

We will now take the next question from the line of Dipanjan Ghosh from Citi.

Just a few questions from my side. First, when I look at the evolution of Policybazaar, I mean, from insurance, from Paisa, now pension -- in your presentation, you have mentioned about TV marketing, your intention to get into even stock broking, if I'm not wrong, you mentioned in the presentation, you're applying for ARN License for MF. When I look at the landscape, the way it is developing in some of your listed peers or even unlisted peers, it seems all of you would start becoming a digital native platform for distribution of all sorts of financial products or most sorts of financial products. Now there are 2 questions. One is, how do you really differentiate yourself from others, maybe not today, but let's say, 5 years out? And second is, in terms of leveraging your existing customer base, whether it's policy or Paisa for this new product classes or kind of cross-selling, what sort of data sharing practices are there? I mean can you really do that? I mean how do you really leverage the existing customer base? My second question is on PB Connect, the physical leg of the lending business. It seems that the volumes were quite low compared to last quarter. So is there any change in strategy on that business? And my last question is on the insurance business and -- PoSP business on the insurance side, not the PoSP, I mean basically the digital leg of the business on the core insurance side in terms of you deploying manpower in 200-plus cities. I just wanted to understand in terms of capacity that you have currently to service and the product mix or margin profile, how do we look at the digital business versus the core online business? I mean, over long term, will there be any difference in the margin profile?

Sure. No, thank you. First of all, we have 2 businesses in Policybazaar. One is Policybazaar and one is Paisabazaar. And a lot of what you mentioned actually applies to Paisabazaar. So I'll pass that on to -- Policybazaar stays extremely focused on one problem, and it's a very, very deep problem. And I don't think anybody else is trying to solve that problem, which is solving for social security of the middle class, which implies protection against death, disease, disability and old age, which can be pensions. So there are basically 4 products required, and I've always said that health, I'm becoming a bit like Trump, I'm saying the same thing. I always said it, always said it, no, I should not say that. So health, term, pensions and waiver of premium. Waiver of premium is basically in case something bad happens, if you invest in a mutual fund, you only get the 3 months you've invested for, but if you've died and you get the [ rest ]. So these are the 4 products, right? And that goes for child education. So these are what Policybazaar is focused on. Paisabazaar and the future that it wants to build, I will just pass on to Santosh to explain. Before I go there, maybe Sarbvir, you can cover the insurance physical versus online. I know there's good.

So again, just to be very clear, Dipanjan, that the person comes to our platform and either the same person who is speaking to them on the phone goes to visit them or they pass on, they make an appointment and one of their colleagues who is in that city goes to meet the customer. So there is -- the journey is exactly the same. It's just the fulfillment, which is physical. It's about 25% right now of our savings, term and health business on -- if you just look at together. It has been growing quite rapidly, but so has the rest of the business. So the percentage grows very, very slightly every quarter, every year. Now as far as the economics of the business are concerned, they are actually very, very good because as you can imagine, the lead cost is the same. Now we're getting extra conversion from that lead, right? We have spent money to get the customers. Now we're getting extra conversion from that. So that conversion, of course, comes at a very, I would say, very high contribution margin. The biggest challenge that we have been working on from day 1 is the quality of the business because suddenly, we have a situation where you are not on a recorded line, et cetera, et cetera. So we do verification calling. We focus from a cultural perspective to ensure that our team understands the importance of quality, et cetera. So I think the skill that has been built, the first skill to be built was how to manage a physical workforce, which I think our team now has got pretty good at. The second skill that we have built is how to manage the quality of that sale so that there is no deviation because all the things that we tell you about the quality of business at Policybazaar is one of the key ingredients, and that is measured in terms of claim settlement rates, loss ratios, in terms of persistency and renewal rate. These are the clear metrics which tell you whether the quality is good or bad. And all -- I would say all 4 of them are at all-time highs right now. So far, it appears that we are managing it well, but it's something that we are very watchful about.

I'll now pass on to Santosh. And before I pass on to Santosh, we have kind of not -- this is not a Board-approved thing, but our idea is that Paisabazaar goes on to list itself maybe in 4 years, 5 years, whenever. That's the whole idea to which the team is driving towards. And I'll kind of pass on to Santosh to kind of explain what the strategy for doing that is not for doing that, overall.

Dipanjan, largely, Paisabazaar has about 5.8 crore consumers that is acquired till there. A lot of credit -- and that almost represents 50% of the active credit Indians in India. Now how do you do more these consumers is basically the idea. We are transitioning into becoming a more engagement platform than a onetime registration platform. And you can, of course, do that through credit, but you can also do that through savings. People want both kind of products. Now to do the savings business, we, of course, want to do both the bonds and mutual funds. So the stock broking license that you are talking about is a prerequisite for acquiring a bond license. So that is why you see that license being applied. And bonds, I think, is a very good consumer product, very efficient and a good fixed return product that consumers like. We've done some initial experiment with partnering with the platform and seen some early success. So that gives us a lot of confidence that this area will really build. And I think it's the right time to also, I think, start this product in India today. It's a very new industry, and there is some activity happening, but I think we are in the right time entering this space. On the mutual fund side, it is an established industry. If you ask me, really the right to win will be harder. But what we are attempting is instead of moving to a monthly SIP format, bringing in a daily SIP format. And that can build a lot of engagement. It really improves, I would say, affordability, people when you put in saving INR 100 every day. And when you see it compound over 5 years, it can be a meaningful number. So I think that is the path of building the savings area. Of course, it will take another 2, 3 years to actually flesh that out fully. But that will build a trail that's also building a recurring revenue stream. That's largely the idea of.

And the customer engagement. And on PB Connect, just to explain, we had 2 kinds of businesses. So PB Connect is basically just for everybody's sake, it's like the PoSP of home loans. And in that, we have 2 kinds of businesses. One is more focused at retail agents, so very, very small micro agents. And one is dealing with other agents who are large enough, so more like wholesale. We have decided to stop the wholesale business. And that is why -- so it's a decision that we've taken because we don't see any strategic value of that business. And because we decided to stop that, you have seen a decline in the revenue. It has no impact on the overall profits, like maybe we were losing INR 0.5 crores a month or something. So that INR 0.5 crore loss has gone up.

We will now take next question from the line of Supratim Datta.

I'll start off on the Policybazaar side. So you have indicated that the fresh business growth has continued to remain very strong, driven by protection. Just wanted to understand how are the customers that you're getting post September different to the ones before that? Is there a ticket size different? Is there a product, the kind of policies that they're taking? Is there a difference there? Just because that would be very important in extending this growth. So that's the first bit. The second bit is on the change -- how you're trying to expand the Paisabazaar platform. I wanted to understand, one, on the mutual fund side, would these be direct mutual funds that you're doing or would these be the regular mutual funds? And then it seems like you're going towards more of a distribution of wealth management kind of a setup with bonds and mutual funds. So wanted to understand that maybe 5 years out or 7 years out, is that the ultimate aspiration that you want to be a kind of a wealth management platform for retail mass affluent customers? That's the second bit. And lastly, on the PoSP platform, you have indicated that you are going for more granular smaller agents. I wanted to understand currently what is the proportion of these smaller agents, be it in form of number of agents or contribution to written premiums? And what was it maybe 1 year back or 2 years back? So just some color, how is that actually playing out? So those are my 3 questions.

Sarbvir, do you want to just explain the customers before September, post September?

So Supratim, as you can imagine, the customers are roughly the same. But what has changed is the fact that, one, there was a lot of exposure to people about term insurance and health insurance because there was a lot of discussion during the GST time. However, what has happened post GST is that in health insurance, for instance, people are buying higher sum insured than they were buying earlier. So if you look at the proportion of policies below INR 10 lakhs and greater than INR 10 lakhs, now a vast majority of policies are being bought, which are INR 10 lakhs and above in terms of sum insured. So that has pushed up the ticket size somewhat, and that is helping. There have also been a launch of a couple of insurers have launched unlimited sum insured products which are towards their pricing is around INR 25 lakhs sum insured type range. So those also have helped because now people are attracted by the fact that they can have unlimited sum insured. So I think that is what has changed to some extent on the health side. On the term side, the change has been, again, because the customer is seeing an 18% reduction because the prices have not changed on both health and term insurance. And what that has led to is that people are buying there the sum assured hasn't gone up by that much because people tend to think in bigger buckets, like you think of INR 1 crore or INR 2 crores, et cetera. But people have been buying a little bit more on the riders. So things like the critical illness riders, the attachment of that has gone up. Some of the accidental protection riders, their attachment has gone up. So I think that has changed post September. But -- both of these changes are dwarfed by a different change, which is the fact that our conversion rate has gone up. So for the people who are coming, more of them are buying because I guess they are a little bit more aware about the value of insurance.

On the PoSP before we move on, Sarbvir obviously has the data. We just looked at yesterday, 99.5% of the agents make less than about whatever. They are below what they make less than INR 20 lakh revenue in a year from us. Only 350 agents or so make more than that. In terms of premium, 83% of the premium comes from the small agents now. If you look at the same number a year ago, that would have been close to 50-50 in terms of premium. So I think our growth is despite the fact that we are cutting out a lot of the other part, and it's actually reducing year-on-year. But it's gone from about 50-50 to about 82% in terms of premium, so in terms of agents, 99.7% here.

Got it. And on the Paisabazaar?

Yes. So on the Paisabazaar side, basically, at this stage, look, we're a lending company. Lending has certain advantages, but it does not have engagement with the customer as much and the renewal stream becomes. It's also a little -- every time there is a downward trend. So one of the things we've done is because every time there's a downward trend, we used to get hurt, we have improved the quality of partners that we are operating with. See, what we noticed over time was the larger banks, the larger institutions, even in downtimes, support their partners and maybe our efforts in that direction was lower in the past. We have put in additional efforts in those -- in that direction. So we've got more of those partners. Our end-to-end journeys have increased. See in downtimes, people and quality is something that we're very focused on. So lending is going to keep doing well. I think you will see a very good year from Paisabazaar. In terms of the long term, at this point, it's not very crystallized. But yes, you are right. We are going to do pretty much everything that anybody does to take care of our customer base and engage with them with more and more products and create more and more opportunities for them to visit us. So there are various things we're doing. We're doing points, we're doing tokens. We're doing -- we will do mutual funds. We will do bonds. And we will find our own space like we've done in everything else. We were never the market leader when we started anything. We'll find our own space.

Understood. And one last data keeping question. Can you split that 67% protection growth into how much is term and how much is health?

Maybe a little more in health than in term Yes, a little extra. So maybe.

Both are very close.

Very close. But yes, maybe 35%, 32%, if you want to have a number, maybe something around that. 67% growth. Sorry, I thought -- health is ahead. We just want to stop there. We don't want to give out our exact health growth. It's quite high. It's interesting.

We will now take next question from the line of Neeraj Toshniwal from UBS.

So first question is on -- I think Yashish mentioned that there have been possible scenario of deferral in the life insurance in terms of commissions. So just wanted to understand in such scenario, what is the impact of deferral revenue recognition and the cost which we incur? How would that change?

So Neeraj, first of all, I don't want to speculate on any scenario. This is just what we hear in the market. It might happen, it might not happen. All I'm saying is for us, we find we've been asking the industry for this for the last 10 years that we would like to get paid on a deferred basis. We are the ones who've been going and asking for it. So -- and I don't want to kind of add fuel to this fire by kind of saying Policybazaar has this view, Policybazaar has that view. We'll just kill the area. That's all. I think -- I don't want to answer specific questions on what we will do with the deferral and all that stuff.

I just want to explain because this is a very emotive topic. And I think what Yashish is trying to say is that if you look at it on a persistency adjusted basis, right, we are there. It's not that what we get paid -- would have a major impact if you were to defer it because of the persistency that our portfolio has. Having said that, we are not necessarily -- we are okay both ways. And whichever way in the wisdom, whatever way is there, we will cope with it. But I think the point that he's trying to make is that because we have the persistency, there is no -- it doesn't really affect us that much because of that. But overall, we are very happy with the current system. And I would just want to say one more thing that life insurance contracts are 30, 40 years, especially in the case of term insurance. So the way to think about it is not -- the first year commission should not be seen as divided by the first year premium. You have to look at it on an NPV basis over the life of the product, obviously, persistency adjusted. So when you do that, then you'll actually find that especially in term insurance, the commission is not as high as people think it is.

First premium is less than 5%.

So that's kind of where we are. And I think that's what we are trying to say. I don't think we necessarily want to advocate one direction or the other.

Yes, we are certainly not participant in the debate of whether it should be deferred or not deferred.

And also -- see, basically there's a P&L and a there's a cash flow part. Now if you just look at the Ind-AS accounting on P&L, actually there should not be an impact whatever happens. Cash flow, there may be a small impact, but we'll see when the rule come out and what sort of rule come out.

Definitely very, very helpful on this. The second is on Paisa. As you have mentioned that the sort of growth which you are expecting. Are you also deploying more resources and that could lead to some bit of higher expenses as well or are the cost base totally intact and only we can get this operating leverage from here? How should one think about it?

I think I'll let Santosh answer it. I know the answer, but yes.

I think you'll see a lot of operating leverage, I think, this year. I think the costs have stabilized, and I think the absorption of that will be much better. See, as we improve scale and like Yashish mentioned, a lot of supply work has happened. Our conversions are going up. People are seeing more offers that can translate into actual disbursals. So those rates have significantly improved and hence, the scale will improve. With that, I think from a cost perspective, we should be roughly similar this year.

See, on Paisa, I would just say and Santosh probably didn't say it because she's too nice. Compared to last year in terms of quality of business, productivity of employees, we are supremely high right now. For the same inquiry, how much are we getting out, we are supremely high. I think we are at a point we are not expanding employees for some time. And we think there is some leverage left for us to get, maybe about 30% or so is something that we can get with the current employee base. But I'll just share one thing with you. Like last year, if we looked at when Santosh took over the CEO position, if we looked at how many of our employees who were making incentives, it was very, very few because they were not operating at a very high quality. But today, if we look at that, that number is a lot higher. And incentives is a higher percentage of their compensation because that's the way you can see if a sales team is driven or not. Incentives are a much higher percentage of their comp. I'm just -- they're almost unbelievable because it has almost come to Policybazaar levels in that respect, what percentage of your total compensation is variable. And I think I'll stop there. I'll let time reward Santosh rather than kind of me doing it in advance of time.

That is helpful, Yashish and Santosh. The last bit on this is secured disbursements have meaningfully dropped. It's a change of strategy or the take rates are not favorable, so we are kind of pushing back on this?

No, they have only dropped in one area, which was wholesale PoSP distribution, which we were doing for one supplier. Look, it was not making strategic sense. We've decided not to continue that business. We stopped it in January. It takes 15 days to stop the business. After that, we are not doing that business. It was a meaningful part of the home loans part of the Paisa revenue. That's fine. It was kind of fluffy revenue in the sense it didn't really have profits. It would never make massive profits. Yes, wholesale PoSP is what we stopped. Everything else is up.

Next question is from the line of Manas Agarwal from Bernstein.

Great momentum on operationally everything. A couple of strategic questions. I think we have discussed take rate extensively. The other thing that comes up in investor conversations is capital allocation. So are we in a position that we want to comment on use of money that is lying on the balance sheet and the accruals that we are expecting? The other is on PB Health. Can you give an update on what operationally is happening on the ground? Because I may be wrong on this, but I thought the investment last year was going to be a onetime investment. So if we are looking at a follow-on round as well, would be good to know what is actually happening on the ground on that business. That's it.

So there are multiple layers to PB Health, but let's go with the hospital part. We've acquired one hospital, which is an operating hospital, makes about INR 20 crores, INR 30 crores of profit in a year. Does about INR 150 crores of revenue. So that's operational and running in Noida. Our next hospital is to go live in the next few weeks. In fact, next week is the sort of starting of it. By this month end, it should be operational. That's in what do you call that, Gurgaon, Central Gurgaon. We are getting into another hospital in Gurgaon. There's another one we're looking in Delhi, and we've also started looking outside of Delhi. So that's the hospitals part. On the second hand, there is something called PB Care Plus, which is a network of -- basically, our customers go to all hospitals today. We are creating a preferred network of -- for our customers. And that preferred network is about 500 hospitals strong. So for example, if you had cataract, today across the country, if you were our customer, we would direct you towards Agarwal Eye Care because that is part of the PB Care Plus network. So that's happening. Now what you will see over time emerging from these 2. So one, you see is an absolute operation less, of course, operations is involved, but it's the entire hospital, the health care is somebody has a responsibility. We are only coordinating between our customer and the health care. And the second is full-blown hospital development. And this is where you're seeing 2 parts. Now these will start to come together over the next 1 year, where you will see O&M operations. So of this 500, 600 hospital network, we will take on some of them and start operating them under the PB Health brand. I'll stop there. As I said, PB Health has no immediate requirement of cash. They have not even used 30% of the cash we had. But they are in conversations to raise capital. They are in late-stage conversations. And should they come to PB Fintech, PB Fintech will consider it. We will think about it, but it has not come to PB Fintech yet. And it may, it may not. But PB Fintech has the right to invest up towards pro rata, which it can decide. It can decide not to, it can decide to do it. It doesn't have the right to invest more than pro rata.

Understood. Anything on capital allocation, balance sheet, cash, cash flow.

I'll explain. Over the last 3 months, because, see, you're asking in a way, I've already said we're not having a discussion at the Board level. So you were asking, okay, what's in your head. So in our head, at least once we've had a conversation about buybacks and dividends, that's it. I can just say that. That's a dividend. That's a conversation. It's not even gone to the Board. It's not even being discussed properly at the management level. We don't know what we will do here. We don't know right now. But right now, we don't really have a plan on what to do with the capital.

Next question is from the line of Nischint Chawathe from Kotak.

Yes. I hope I'm audible now. Just 2 questions. One is, can you give some update on what happened? And how did the UAE business fare this quarter? And is there a particular outlook on this business in the?

No, no, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm amazed by those guys. I'll tell you why. In fact, I would have spoken about them at the beginning of the thing as I usually do about something amazing out there because if you really think about the bombing started on 29th of Feb or on 28th of Feb. I don't know the 29th was there even there this month this year. But it started at some point in March should have been a washout month for them. Then about 5 days in, AWS got knocked out, and we were on AWS. So just imagine the scenario, 10 days, we had the ability to do 0 bookings. Our entire system is down. And I go there for the review, like I usually do at the end of the month. And I'm trying to be encouraging about everything. And they review the thing and they say they are 3% year-on-year up. I'm saying what the hell are you talking? How is that possible, right? I was thinking that the competitor would have taken everything from them because the competitor was not on AWS. And the competitor is not as much up. So all I'm saying is, thankfully, and I was saying to the Board also yesterday that while they're a public company and everything, we somehow are very, very driven and we have deep ownership in the company, not in terms of stocks, but just in terms of deep ownership of the processes. And I just feel super proud about the situation. And so I think they are -- in bad times, will perform okay. In great times, we'll really shine. That's all I can say. And you can't get worse than this, right? Your entire network has gone, you're being bombed and you still grow 3% year-on-year. Quarter, we are actually 10% or 12% up. So obviously, Jan-Feb, they were growing beautifully.

Okay. Got it. On the term and health, we have seen a beautiful J curve post GST cuts. So -- and if I look at the savings business, it's -- I think at a level.

In Health for the last 13 quarters, we have grown at 60% last year. [Foreign Language] 60% growth over 4 years, we do realize what that does here in terms of multiplications. But GST becomes the J curve. But yes, term is not GST, it's actually our guy. We got a very special guy who started to really make changes. I said he's the hire of the year for us. But sorry, I'm taking your time.

No, no. There's no thunder there. Sorry, go ahead, Nischint.

Yes. So the question was actually on savings business. What -- so when do you see the similar J-curve in savings business? And I think more from a broader industry point of view as well, right? I mean the life industry new business premiums have sort of stagnated at low double-digit levels. So what can the industry do or distributors do or what can the government do to nudge both the parties to kind of have a similar J curve in the savings business?

I think Nischint, I mean avoiding the use of the term J-curve. I would say that savings for insurance we have to figure out what is the customer proposition because see, total amount of savings, we can see the growth in SIP, we can see the growth in mutual funds, et cetera, bonds, everything. So it's not that the total amount of savings in the country is a challenge. I think the savings coming to insurance is definitely, to some extent, you can argue is a challenge. And I think the main thing is the customer proposition. And one of the things that we have always tried to do is to start from the customer rather than starting from what we want to sell. So many years ago, when Santosh was leading the business, she introduced the concept of a capital guarantee, right, where we said that your premium will be guaranteed, you will ensure that we get your premium back and then you have upside in terms of the market. That was an innovation that did well -- now we are trying to go to the next level where we are saying that the reason you should invest in a ULIP is that you at least have to be in the product for 5 years. That's the base term of the product. Obviously, you can stay 10, 15, 20 years. And we are saying that the reason is that you tie a goal to the investment. It's not about -- it's not a privilege thing that, okay, let me put some money into the market and see whether because there's a war going on or whatever. It's a goal that you have. One goal, it could be child education, could be buying a house, could be your retirement. So these goals are serious goals for which you have to remain in the investment. That's what ULIP really does well. Second, ULIPs have a feature, which is called rigor of premium, which means that should something happen to you, the insurance company will continue to pay your premiums, also pay out the sum assured, give a monthly income to your family. So here, you have not just planned for the goal, but you have protected the goal. And the third thing is that still ULIPs enjoy a tax advantage up to INR 2.5 lakhs. So they are actually right now the best investment. And within that INR 2.5 lakhs tax advantage, you also have the ability to switch from equity to debt. So it's the only debt product available in the country without having to pay tax on it. So there are 3 very big advantages of ULIPs. I think we are going to promote this more and more. This is something that we have been doing even earlier, but we are going to promote these things more. And we believe that this will attract customers for the right reasons. See, many times, we forget that despite all the discussion about SIPs and mutual funds, after 5 years, the number of active SIPs is in the estimates vary from 3% to 11% or something. So we are still -- after 5 years in our ULIP, the persistency is somewhere in the 70% to 75% range. So the customer that we are getting is a good customer. I think we just need to talk more about the advantage. And -- it's not for me to say what the industry should do or not do, but I do believe that all of us have to start from the customer and offer a proposition, which is good for the customer.

And the first waiver of premium is a great proposition.

Yes. Go ahead.

But do you think a meaningful change in commission, origination expenses, operating expenses, EOM can kind of make the proposition much more attractive? I mean, is that something that can trigger customers to buy more of savings products?

See, Nischint, our take rate on the ULIP side are probably the lowest take rates probably of the entire business that we do, right? Because as you can imagine, when you sell low-cost ULIP that too with waiver of premium type of feature, there's not much that is left, right? We are giving actually everything to the customer. So the products that we sell, I don't think there is any story around commission in that because we don't take much commission. The story for commissions is in other types of products that the industry sells. And in those products, yes, the commission, again, because it's the first year commission can appear very high and things...

The customer has no clue about that commission. And quite honestly, without distribution, that industry would not be there or with lower benefits. So assuming Nischint quite bluntly, in some products, there is high commission and you say, okay, let's equate it to what Policybazaar gets. Suppose the entire industry commission structure again for savings business, the same as what Policybazaar makes on the savings business, I think it would pretty much stop. It will probably be 2% of the industry left besides Policybazaar. But why should I make those statements, right? I think everybody who's smart can see those statements eventually. And that's why I -- when earlier Dipanjan was asking that question, I did not want to answer it because it's a speculative question, which would never happen, right? If it happens, it's industry disruption, not industry expansion in my opinion.

That's fair. That's fair.

See, this is not a mutual fund product. It's not something that the customer is saying, I really want to buy this. I really want to invest in this. And that's why I'm saying Santosh started this business from scratch, took it up to when you were doing INR 5,000 crores of this kind of business, imagine what she will do when she actually gets the mutual fund product because she wanted to always sell mutual funds, and she's finally there. So all I'm saying is that is a much easier, much more attractive product. And if you take it on an AUM basis, eventually, he (sic) [ she ] make less than that also. So there are lots of existential questions around that part of the story.

Next question is from the line of Prayesh Jain from Motilal.

Yes. Yes. Just my question is again on the health insurance bit and a phenomenal growth journey growing for so many quarters at 60% plus. Post GST, obviously, we've seen some tailwinds coming in, more tailwinds coming in. Just wanted to understand more color of it apart from new customers coming in and some assured increases that have happened, is long-term policy also has picked up momentum? Because we keep hearing about people kind of marketing about a price hike that could come through and lock in of a price and probably a long-term policy, and that is kind of also coming into your premium and driving the growth. And related to that, obviously, we have seen a phenomenal growth in this year and -- in the second half of this year. Now do you think that a 30% growth on that high base is still achievable? Or what are your thoughts there?

So I'll just explain the question that you asked in terms of the long-term policies. For us, long-term policy proportion of our premium has remained very stable between last year and this year. What has changed, however, is that some of the people are buying 4, 5-year policy. Traditionally, in health insurance, the highest term used to be 3 years. Now we have 4- and 5-year policy. So that proportion has increased. But the overall proportion of people buying long-term policies or premium multiyear policies has not changed very much, at least for us. And I think again, I just want to -- I think this question was asked on the last call also. I just want to explain to you that there is no tricks in the business growth that we have achieved because it's been going on for 3 years now. And again, no one can say whether it will remain at this rate for next year or not. I mean I don't think that's something we want to speculate about.

No, I think you can say, but...

I don't want to say. I would say that the thing to focus on is the fundamentals that the fact that we have the segmentation of customers, we have the products for those appropriate products priced correctly, the fact that we have a trained, well-trained sales team, which has tools now increasingly using Gen AI, et cetera. And then we have the service and claims experience. I cannot stress enough that the service and claims experience is the key to a Kingdom. Everybody buys insurance policy for that rainy day when something will happen. And I think when you show up on that day and they're able to get the claim, that changes the equation. And honestly, the feedback that we are getting shows that we are making progress, not just in -- one is the CSAT and all those kind of numbers, but the other is to see the anecdotal feedback. So to my mind, those are the building blocks, and it's not that we are selling more multiyear this year versus last year, et cetera, et cetera. None of that stuff is happening.

Now a large number of customers who have not bought from us are coming to us saying, please just help us at the point of claim because whoever sold it to us or whichever -- yes. So we are -- that is becoming a massive USP. And I think Sarbvir has been my senior and is very careful always. He's learned what the right things to say. I'm okay to just say what I feel. Next year growth, no problem. We will beat last year, okay? And so what we will do is in 1 year, we will give the growth of what we promised in 2 years. We promised 30% growth in 2 years, we'll give that growth in 1 year.

The other question was on the claims bit. The physical support that you offer on claims with people on the ground in hospitals helping customers settle the claims. What is the kind of penetration that we have in the country today? And how do you kind of see that increasing and the span increasing over the next few years?

I think, Prayesh, if I'm right, we are in 248 cities. And I think there are 2 things that are going on. One is this 248 cities may go up a little bit, but that's not really the story anymore. The story now is actually shifting towards this PB Care Plus that Yashish mentioned, where there is the preferred network. And if you go to that network, you will get preferential treatment, right? So the cataract example that we discussed, the customer -- because it's a planned procedure, the customer is taken straight to their room, the procedure is done depending on how much time they have to stay, they then go home. Again, no billing there, nothing. So what we are trying to do is to create this totally red carpet type of experience. There will be a PB person in that hospital, et cetera. So a combination of technology and operations, and I think the experience will be at next level. So that's what we are really trying to do. Today, if you have the Policybazaar app, you can consult a doctor 24/7. So we have worked with all our insurance partners to offer this service to our customers. So you can consult a real doctor, you can call an ambulance. So I mean the whole story is changing from just even physical presence in cities to presence in hospitals and giving just an amazing experience to the customer.

And Prayesh, if you look at the data, and I'll just take 1 minute on this. There are basically 2 segments of -- there are 3 segments of customers, but on the corner, there are 2 segments of customers, a very small percentage that are regular claimers and/or -- and there's a large percentage that never claims. I think as we look at the next 5 years or so, what we have to do is to give something back to the nonclaimers also. Whether that comes in terms of maternity cover, whether that comes in terms of some gym access, some wellness benefits, et cetera, somewhere we have to sweeten the deal, OPD benefits. We have to sweeten the deal for them because right now, they're getting nothing, right? So young people, et cetera, coming in are getting nothing. And as we talk about the people who are regular claimers, we have to bring them into participation. And please understand, right now, participation is hated as a word, but participation can be in terms of co-pay, can be in terms of limited networks, can be in terms of tiered networks, various things. But without this participation, please appreciate the cost is going to become -- we're not doing lot of joy. We're doing it out of necessity. The cost will become unsustainable for the industry. So those are the 2 things that we have to work on, make it better for the people who do not claim so that more and more of them come in and get something out of it and bring participation from the regular claimers because without that, it won't be sustainable. And the participation -- there are very few to work on. Sorry, any new question? Any other question?

No, that just last one bit on -- so Yashish, you were rightly mentioning, right, the new initiatives have been in existence for some years now and there are no longer new initiatives and scaled up beautifully. So if we start bucketing new initiatives like what we've spoken about in Paisabazaar, what would be those in terms of, say, 5 years out, do you think that these could be, say, about 10% of your revenues in like 5 years out?

Sorry, I missed that. You want to answer that?

No, it's about new initiatives, new, new initiatives, how much...

Yes. I think new, new initiatives will come. There are new things happening already. Whether we talk about embedded insurance, whether we talk about the savings business, whether we talk about home loans business, there are new things happening constantly, PB Care Plus, PB Wheels, PB Pay. So there's new things happening. See, the -- if you look at the new initiatives, where does the big revenue impact come from? It came from PoSP. PoSP is like wildfire. You can expand that business very rapidly. And doing it with the right quality is hard. And that is what our team is doing -- has been doing for the last 3 years. They're building the right quality. So I think that kind of growth coming from a single level is not going to be that easy. But we'll see. We always stay open. All the time, there are 3, 4 new things we are doing. The reason we are still calling them new initiatives and not -- we don't want to confuse the market by kind of just combining them and stopping disclosure around how much is what. That's all. It's just for disclosure purposes. There's nothing more than that. The growth rates are very similar.

We will now take the last question from the line of Sanketh Godha from Avendus.

So my first question is on the contribution margin for the new initiatives coming as expected. Actually, for the last 8 quarters, it has been steadily improving. We see a dip in the current quarter. Anything...

I think the audio is not very clear.

Okay. Is it better now by any chance?

It is better. Yes.

So my first question was on the contribution margin of the new initiatives, which is seeing a bit of decline after 8 consistent quarters of improvement. So anything to read there? 4.3 percentage seems to be lower compared to 5.7 percentage what you reported last quarter? New initiatives contribution margin, I'm saying.

No, it is same. There is some small mix changes. Sometimes there is quarterly annual shifts. Please, in our numbers, just look at them on a 12-month rolling basis. Do not focus a huge amount on quarterly numbers because sometimes you get rewarded for some action or penalized for some action in the last quarter. That always happens. We believe in exit part. So...

Yes. And actually, since this is one of the last question, I do want to talk about the -- how we are thinking about PoSP in general. See, PoSP has been growing, yes, still growing faster than our core business. And we believe that there is -- right now is a very opportune moment for us to deepen our penetration in the country. And the reason for that is that we have now learned how to go to smaller cities. The model is kind of becoming better and better. So I think that you will find us being very aggressive this year on PoSP because we see that opportunity. There is also a bit of an industry structural issue because some of the competitors, a, we are now much larger than the competition than we've ever been. And the number two thing is that there are some changes going on, somebody is merging with somebody, somebody is trying various other things. So we see a very big opportunity for us to really go hard on PoSP this year. And so I would not get too worried or excited about contribution margin. I think we should see a meaningful improvement in growth in the next financial year. And that's what I would look towards.

Understood. And the second question, again, maybe related to fourth quarter only, but the PB Corporate business grew 140-odd percentage, which you highlighted in the slide. So anything to read there whether it's a one-off or do you think that you are going to scale this business meaningfully faster? And honestly, on profitability, you last time told that your -- UAE is profitable. So how do you see PB Corporate to play out from a profitability point of view?

So I think the reason [ PB FB ] growth looks very high, of course, is the fact that we are still growing in that business. We are the fastest-growing corporate broker, but we are still small compared to where we want to be. We had a great Q4 on the corporate side. We won some very prestigious accounts which were with other brokers, which we were able to win, especially in the banking and financial space. So I think those accounts obviously then led to revenue, et cetera, and that's why you're seeing that very dramatic growth. But again, it's 140%, but we have a long way to go on corporate. I think corporate business will require investment still in the years ahead. And if you ask me honestly, at this point, we are very happy to make that investment because every year, we are building strength in that business, not only just in employee benefits, but now on the commercial side, the P&C side, where historically, we were not as strong, I think we are getting much, much stronger. So I think there is, again, a lot of reasons to invest in that business in the next few years.

So Sanketh, we've come from 0, and we are now in the top 8 brokers in the country. Obviously, we don't want to stay in top 8. We want to be very, very big. We will invest in this. And what we are seeing is a very good team. We are barely hiring from outside. It's mostly internally built and internally driven. And we are building our own culture, which is, as most of you appreciate, is quite strong. So I think we feel very good about that business. And that business is not just a -- again, we are thinking of it the same way. It's again lending -- leading us into health care, leading us into various places. So we're very happy with the progress of that business. Yes, it does make a small amount of loss, which is perfectly fine. I think the group can easily afford it for a few more years.

But Yashish, do you think this business to become very quickly profitable given after you achieve a scale, the kind of growth what you're delivering right now means compared to a PoSP naturally?

Yes, this can be significantly more profitable than the PoSP business. I have no doubt there. But as I said, that's not the immediate focus. The immediate focus -- see, across the board, our immediate focus is growth and quality. I think there are 3 levers you can think of, right? Growth, quality, profits. Please read us. While a lot of questions come around profits, that has not been our focus. Our focus is the other 2. And this will just follow along. And of course, if you are doing growth and quality, eventually, profits can't elude you forever.

Understood. And lastly, on the revenue side, we know that in long-term plans, we recognize the revenue, but naturally, it is receivable. So just wanted to understand from the full year point of view, around INR 6,800 crores of revenue what we have reported, how much of the revenue we have recognized but yet to be received from the insurer? Just want to understand the portion of the revenue coming from there.

I think, Sanketh, it's a complicated question. There are multiyear policies, there are multiyear monthly more policies, et cetera. Mohit can help you on that directionally. I think the point remains that it's not a large portion of the story, and it's kind of growth rates from last year to this year. And...

See, there was a cycle -- there was a cycle which kind of started about October '24. That cycle has run its course. So yes, you have the impact of 1 year, but that should not keep playing out forever. And it should start clearing out now. As Sarbvir said, yes, we can explain that in a more close setting.

Thank you, Sanketh. Thank you, Yashish and here the management. With this, we now close the call. And if you have any further queries, you may reach out to Investor Relations. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Mohit.