PB Fintech Limited (POLICYBZR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

A very warm welcome to PB Fintech Limited Earnings Call Q3 Financial Year '24/'25. Today, we have with us Mr. Yashish Dahiya, Chairman and CEO, PB Fintech; Mr. Alok Bansal, Executive Vice Chairman, PB Fintech; Mr. Sarbvir Singh, Joint Group CEO, PB Fintech; Mr. Naveen Kukreja, Co-Founder and CEO, Paisabazaar; Mr. Mandeep Mehta, Group CFO, PB Fintech; and I'm Rasleen. I now request Yashish to make the Introductory address.

Thank you very much for your patience. I apologize for this delay. We'll try to make sure it doesn't happen again. Sorry about that. So as we share our performance update for the quarter ended December 31, 2024, we are very pleased that our health and life insurance business, which are, as I always say, a bulk of our long-term value, witnessed a combined growth of 47% year-on-year in new premium for Q3 -- for the quarter. In this, health is just shy of 60%. And I think if I would just give you a color for the quarter, our savings business grew a tad slower than we anticipated, and thus we had build up our capacity expecting a higher growth in savings, but that did not happen. So just to take away the thing, health grew really well, term grew quite well and savings were a little slower. And the other -- the good news is motor and 2-wheeler actually came back. And so it's a pretty balanced growth this time across the board. Our total insurance premium for the quarter was INR 6,135 crores, up 44% Y-o-Y. Core insurance premium grew 42% in Q3, with the core insurance revenue growing 45%. Credit-linked revenue was INR 119 crores for the quarter. New initiatives grew at 87% and now are at 3% positive contribution margin. Our revenue for Q3 grew 48%. So that phase -- this is the other thing that I wanted to signal here, that phase where our premium growth was higher than our revenue growth is hopefully behind us, because that was because we were moving from the traditional products to the ULIP products to the savings side. That part seems to be now behind us. We are -- it's been more than a year of that change. So the revenue has grown at 48% to INR 1,292 crores and the PAT grew to INR 92 crores -- 92% Y-o-Y to INR 72 crores, sorry. Our trail revenue is now at an ARR of INR 665 crores, up from INR 454 crores last year. And just to complete that story, this same number was INR 287 crores exactly 2 years ago. So what that means is much more than doubling every 2 years, and a growth of 46% Y-o-Y. As we all know, this is a key driver for our long-term profit growth, so this is quite secure. We continue to improve our customer onboarding and claims support services and the insurance CSAT is now for the first time above 90% at 90.2%, up from last quarter. The credit business has been down. It's about 20% down, the core credit business is about 20% down Y-o-Y. And this is actually the first quarter where we've seen a significant reduction compared to the previous. So it's even on quarter-on-quarter, it's about 13% down in terms of disbursals in the online side of the business. However, the good news there is secured is building up very fast. Secured is now much bigger than unsecured in terms of total disbursals. It's about -- it's actually about 1.4x now. So that's clearly taken over. Of course, it has materially less revenue per disbursal. And the good news is that the secured business was just started in Q2, so it's just been a 6-month old business. So it's a very rapid growth and all organic. We are not -- yes. So this is -- the new initiatives is now showing a disbursal of INR 2,570 crores. So this is largely secured business, which is now at almost INR 1,000 crores a month, and INR 24 crores revenue for the quarter. So that part is acting as a filler. The core credit business continues to be adjusted EBITDA positive. However, I must say, in this year, we will face about INR 40 crore negative delta on the Paisabazaar side. However, that should be taken care of by some incremental EBITDA coming from the other parts of the business. We continue to strengthen our leadership in new initiatives with a revenue growth of 87%, as I said, and adjusted EBITDA margin moving from minus 13% to minus 7%, with a 3% contribution. PB Partners continues to lead, which is our agent aggregator platform. Today, it has 270,000 advisers. Last quarter, it was 250,000 advisers. So in the last 1 quarter, we've added another 20,000 advisers. We have moved the business increasingly towards smaller and higher-quality advisers, more diversified across different lines of business and present in 18,900 pin codes, covering 99% of the pin codes in India. Our UAE insurance premium had grown at 58% Y-o-Y and is now aligning more and more towards health and life, similar to our India business. Our core health and life insurance businesses are growing ahead of expectations. In anticipation of the steady growth, we continue to invest in operational capacity as well as brand awareness campaigns. Happy to take questions.

Thank you, Yashish. We'll take the first question from Sachin Dixit, JM Financial.

Yashish and team, hope you can hear me?

Yes.

Congrats on again delivering a good growth quarter. My first question was with regards to profitability, right? So while obviously, revenue continues to ramp up, the jump in sequential sort of PAT seems a bit muted. What is driving? Is this just Paisabazaar-related impact? Or there is more to it in terms of contribution effect? Sorry, I have not been able to go through the presentation, so the question might be a bit naive.

No, it's not your fault. It's our fault because the presentation just got uploaded some time ago. No problems. So yes, there is -- as I mentioned earlier, last year, if I look at our credit P&L was about INR 40 crores better than this year. So yes, there is an impact that's coming from there. The other part, as I mentioned in the opening of my speech was, see, we anticipated a certain growth and that growth delivered in health, it delivered in term, but we fell short of that growth rate on the savings business. And that's partly reflective of the insurance market -- of the market cycle that's going on, because most of what we're selling is ULIPs which are market related, right? So they are in a way the same alignment as mutual funds, if you think about it, right? So that did get impacted. And so we were left -- if you remember at the last call I said, yes, we have anticipated -- we have invested in anticipation of growth. That growth did not really come in, in the savings side. So we were left with some additional operating capacity, which I think, as we get towards -- through the next quarter, we will -- we are aligning. Also, obviously, our overall growth is at 44%, but the health growth, as I said, is about 15% higher. That continues to hit. Even our health renewal growth is at 46% or so, whereas the new business is growing faster. Fresh health business comes at 0 margin. And that's obvious. In fact a little bit of loss actually. So that continues to hurt us. Obviously, that doesn't hurt us from an NPV perspective, and we should always look at the NPV. But from a medium term, it does. And so till we stay in the cycle where new business is outperforming and especially new business of health is outperforming, that stress will stay, but it's a good stress to have, not a bad stress. However, on the savings side, it's just -- I think we made the right call because we saw a lot of growth in September, October. That growth did not translate in December.

Just a quick follow-up...

Sorry, Mandeep wanted to add something here, yes.

No, no, I just wanted to add, like you said, that the seasonality this year has been a little bit atypical in the sense that September was a very big month. And then October, because of Diwali, we expected it to be where it was, we thought November and December again would be very big months. So I think that change in that -- I would say there was a general slowdown, I think, in some kind of consumer demand also. So it took a lot to get this growth.

Absolutely.

Yes, that's what you are seeing. But I just want to again say that if we can grow at these rates, I think -- yes, I mean, we cannot prioritize 3-month profitability if you can grow at these rates.

Totally.

Completely, yes. Just a quick follow-up on the savings piece, right. The markets, obviously, January has started very badly and who knows how it's going ahead. So savings could continue to be a laggard. Are you building accordingly? Or you still are -- or you believe that other segments will take care of the investments that you've already done?

See, when we say slow growth, do appreciate it was still north of 30% for the quarter. And even for the month, well, it was quite okay. And even in January, we are seeing quite okay. So it's not like we are where the rest of the industry is, we are definitely ahead. But it is just, obviously, we can't be not impacted by the cycles.

Got it. On my second question, quickly, an update on the health care foray if you have anything in place or will have a good update.

It's the same as last time. So we are -- I was authorized by the Board about, I think, 45 days ago to have negotiations with multiple parties in trying to get investors on board. We are in deep negotiations with the investors. I hope we can -- we are in a position to announce something in about 30 days or so, I hope. That's the best I know. Like basically, multiple negotiations of SSAs, SHAs have happened and at some point, we'll reach closure. Investors have been identified, of course, because that's why we're at that stage.

We'll give the next question from Jayant from Jefferies.

First one is on the margin, Yashish. While I understand that savings is falling a bit short. If you could just sort of touch upon your long-term guidance of 50%, 55% on the contribution margin, should we still continue to expect that over the next 2, 3 years? Or is there any revisit on that? And then I'll come back with the second question.

Yes, I think as you look at longer term, two, three pieces have to play out and strategically, nothing has changed, right? So strategically, the renewals part, which is the NPV, is a great driver of profitability. And eventually, both in health and life, that does contribute. And even in motor, it does contribute. I guess we are still a very early-stage business. If your fresh business is growing at the rates that we are growing, we are still quite early. So I guess as time evolves, that's one part that plays out. The second part that has to play out, if we have, for the last 12 to 18 months, decidedly been pushing the pedal in terms of operating spends and cost of acquisition spends, et cetera, it is the right thing to do, because for us, if we had 5% higher growth, that is better than having 5% higher profitability at this stage. Very clearly, right? Because that's stage we're at, and we know which side of the coin we need to back on. So as we get to a more mature-ish phase, clearly, that part would also shift. So I haven't actually thought of the exact numbers, but I don't think one should rule out a high -- a much higher contribution margin than today. And I don't think a 10% delta from where we are is out of imagination in any way.

Great. Second question, our PoSP business...

Obviously, efficiency, et cetera, would also come in. We are also doing a lot of work on AI, on product development, on -- we are doing -- let me explain the kind of things that we're doing, right? On the garage network now, we are able to have -- we've opened -- we've got 100 different garage networks with our partners. And what that does is allows us to give better service to our customers. And that's again part of the reasons why our motor business has started to grow again. One of the reasons. So as we do these, hopefully, our sales also become easier. So these are all linked activities and all of these should drive further and further efficiency. But I would say in the last 3 years, we've been in a phase of high investment in capabilities that would enhance future sales.

Understood, Yashish. Sir, second question is on the PoSP business. This 3% contribution margin looks impressive. Is this the Dubai and the corporate business? Or this is largely the PoSP piece? A, and if we can sort of expect this number to stabilize and move up from here to the sort of 5% to 7% range that you had at some point hinted to?

See, in the PoSP business -- so our new initiative, nothing swings the needle like the PoSP. So it's largely PoSP, right? But I think the key thing there is your PoSP is a low-margin activity. And then it depends upon are you dealing with really small individual agents or are you dealing with people who are slightly larger agents. And with larger agents, you don't have negotiation ability. They are essentially auctioneers of business. With smaller agents, they tend to be more your partners. And thus, you make better margins when you deal with smaller. But when you deal with smaller agents, you have to also deploy your own sales team, your own relationship team, et cetera, right? So I think 5% is certainly not out of reach. I hope we do better than that. Let's see how that market evolves.

But you should hold on to this 3% plus?

Yes, we never -- I don't want to comment on that. We want to always hold -- you do realize that is a competitive area and we will always be acyclical, countercyclical. So we want to hold our cards close to our chest and we don't give short-term or midterm guidance on that. By the way, in that, now even Paisabazaar's PB Connect is also included in that, in the -- and Dubai is a contributor as well. Of course, everybody is a contributor. But now the new initiative is four things. Paisabazaar's PB Connect, Policybazaar's PB Partners, it's the Dubai business and it is the corporate business, right? So all four are there. But I don't want to tie my hands or tie our hands in any way, shape or form in the PoSP business, it's a competitive arena and we will stay competitive. And we will be somewhat countercyclical. I think that's the only guidance one can take away.

Perfect, and congratulations, Yashish, for a great set of numbers.

Thank you.

We'll take the next question from Ankush, Surge Capital.

Yes. Am I audible?

Yes.

Yes. Just for clarity, I think, Yashish, you clarified the secured business is now part of new initiatives, and it's not considered a core business, right?

No, secured has two parts to it. One is what we sell as a marketplace on our platform, which is Paisabazaar. And the second is what essentially is a platform for -- in a way like a consolidation platform like PoSP. Like basically, it's the same as PB Partners. And so we have both sides of the secured, and the number I gave you for secured was the total number.

Okay. Got it.

B2C will be -- the B2C business will be in the core. The PB Connect is, of course, larger in terms of disbursals, about 3/4.

So 3/4. So about 3/4 is PB Connect -- is the PoSP business.

Right. So can you give the core online business disbursal for the quarter?

About INR 2,866 crores for the quarter.

Thank you, Ankush. We'll take the next question from Madhukar. We'll take the next question from Shreya, CLSA.

Can you hear me?

Yes, Shreya.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. Keeping the quarter aside, I wanted to understand your outlook for the coming year in terms of growth across the major segment. I will not go into the lending business, but the health insurance segment. So what we are hearing from the underwriters is a fresh round of price hikes are going on in the industry right now. And that segment already has challenges in terms of affordability. Now I understand you play a major -- you have a major market share in the fresh business that you get over there. But the theme of the year that is coming through is; first, a fresh rounds of price hike; second, rising pressure from the regulator on the underwriters to keep their expenses under control. FY '26 is the year where they all have to comply with the EoM guidelines. So how do we look at our business going ahead, given that the underwriters will be going through a sea of changes in the year ahead on the health...

So I will pass this over to Sarbvir to give you a much better answer. But I just wanted to leave you with one thing, which I'm sure you all and I'm not talking about Policybazaar business, I'm talking about the industry. On new business, your claims ratio is 25%. On renewal business, as an industry, the claims ratio is 75%. This has nothing to do with Policybazaar. This is the reality. Policybazaar might be better on both, just leave that out of the equation. So everybody wants new business. I will leave it there. I'll pass it on to Sarbvir, because I don't think anybody is anticipating that they don't want to grow in new business.

No, absolutely. I think that's the key point that fresh business is the solution. If you think about it from an industry perspective also, the only solution is to grow your fresh book faster than your renewal book and manage that. So I think anyone who can bring fresh business will always have higher value. And I think that's -- if you notice, that's what we are doing, right? We are bringing fresh new lives into the industry. We are bringing them at a reasonable sort of loss ratio. We are a positive channel in terms of quality and disclosures. So I think our proposition is, in fact, much more valuable in a year where you have stress on your book and you have various other things going. So I don't necessarily anticipate that to be a major challenge for us. I would only say that, you are right, affordability is the key issue to work upon. And I think this year we found a lever in terms of going much more into monthly more policies and things like that. Now as we go through that next year, we'll have to find newer and newer ideas. But yes, I think if you can get fresh business, I don't think you will have a huge challenge next year.

And the last thing I would mention is if you go through the notes of all our calls and our conversations with each one of you, what's happening is exactly what we've laid out over the last 3 years. So it's nothing -- all I'm saying is there is zero surprise for us. I don't know where the surprise is. But that's just -- I'm just talking about my own communication with all of you. It's always been exactly on the line of what's going on right now.

Got it, got it. And do you -- I understand the part of your ability to bring new lives into the industry, et cetera. Do you see any advantage in the past few months, have you -- or past month? Have you seen any advantage of other distributors in the industry slowing down? Or particularly in the last few months, there was a lot of news around other distributors having some sort of pressure. So in those terms, where do you -- do you see -- sense anything on ground or was it just the great momentum that has been...

Shreya, honestly, I appreciate the question. But honestly, we genuinely don't even have time to think about any of the others as far as health insurance is concerned in terms of distribution. We're kind of in our own race and it's -- honestly, it's like I remember first few days in IIT when I had joined, there was a run going on. And I think in the 800 meters race, I was about 100 meters ahead of everybody else. So then it became just my race, there was nobody else to compete with, right? So honestly, this is just us, that's it, from a distribution standpoint. I don't know what else is going on. And I don't know who we can focus on.

Thank you, Shreya. We'll take the next questions from Sachin Salgaonkar, BofA.

Congratulations to management on good set of numbers. My first question is on your core growth. Clearly, every year, we have a new base and you guys can continue to positively surprise on the overall growth. So on this high base, should we continue to see 30% plus growth for next couple of years? Do you see downside risk to this growth?

Growth is the only thing nobody predict. And I have always maintained that for the last 5, 6 years. We think we can grow at 30%. It's a hard problem. It is not an easy problem. It is -- but if it's less than 30%, we'll be very unhappy also, is all I can say. But it's impossible to tell what your growth is over the next 5 years going to be. But I think the way we are growing, I hope we can maintain -- I don't know. Sarbvir?

Yes. No, I have no -- it's absolutely it's very hard to say anything. We yes, we definitely -- we will plan and we will -- I think the main thing as we go forward is that we have to execute fearlessly and we can't be worried too much about what happens in certain time periods. I think you have to see beyond where you are today. And I think we have to keep our eye on the future. I mean you can't just say this profitability this month or this quarter. So I think that is the main thing to avoid, and if we can avoid that and focus on basic building blocks, right, affordability, product, disclosure, service, claims support, I honestly think that there is no reason to believe that we cannot grow for many years.

No. And I totally agree with Sarbvir and I echo this. In fact, I specifically wrote a note out to management because sometimes communication gets misunderstood, because I do believe that this quarter, our profit was slightly less than what I anticipated for various things. And so I specifically wrote the message saying, please, that is not important at all. What is important is our growth and let's focus on that. And this INR 10 crores, INR 20 crores up or down will keep happening. Just don't worry about it at all. Over the long term, it will all even out. So let's just focus on that, so totally on that. And let's focus on the building blocks. So even next year, if we had to err, we would err towards growth rather than err towards trying to get profitability by 5% lower growth. No, that is not what our objective is going to be.

Very clear. In one of your slides, you did mention the future growth will be coming from Tier 2, Tier 3 cities. So question out here is, can you help us in terms of the contribution today for premium from Tier 2, Tier 3 cities, where do we see that going? And again, incrementally, should we see higher investments or a bit of pressure on margins as we go and target consumers into these places?

I would say that, today, about 2/3 to 70% of our business comes from Tier 2, Tier 3 cities. And I think this number will -- that's the way I think growth in the country is happening. So I have a feeling that we will definitely reflect that. Is it going to be more expensive or less expensive than where we are today? I'm not really sure. Because see, our funnel works in a way that we do digital as well as television advertising, which brings people into our website. And there, it's not really -- it's not like we have to spend on hoardings in Bombay versus hoardings in a smaller city or something like that. It's all national kind of work. So I think it brings these people. And then, yes, there will be a service element that we have to manage. In some cases, we have to be distributed more in terms of -- we are today, I think, serving in over 120 cities, we have sales capability. So maybe that 120 will keep growing incrementally as we go along. So there could be some, you could argue, some cost associated with it. But honestly, I feel that it's in reasonably good shape right now. Because we do gain in productivity. We learn how to manage ourselves better in the existing areas, right? So the new area may come in at a slightly lower profitability, but then you also have existing areas which improve. I think Yashish mentioned, use of technology is, I think, very exciting. There's a lot of opportunity with a lot of -- I'm sure you all are hearing about all the GenAI models and things like that. But practically, what it really means is that you are able to bring some productivity gains, you are able to translate what is the intent of the customer more clearly. And I think that will help. So yes, I don't know the answer to your question, but I feel it will be all good.

Got it. Very clear. My third question is on Paisabazaar. Clearly, you're seeing a better growth coming from secured versus unsecured. Question to management is, in medium term, how should we think about the growth coming from unsecured space? Is this something where the company is looking to defocus? Or as and how the stress in this part of the industry goes down, we should see growth again picking from unsecured?

Naveen?

As you may have heard from the various con calls that happened in the banking and the lending industry, that the industry consensus seems to be that the risk is peaking and we should hopefully have bottomed out in terms of the growth in the last quarter. We are starting to see some positive signs already in our conversations with our partners. So firstly, hopefully, the growth will come back. And again, if you look at the fundamental pieces on banking industry, liability is growing at about 12% to 14%. Those have to be deployed into assets. And within that, secured assets give you a 1% or less than 1% ROA, unsecured is the one which gives you higher ROA. So unsecured as an industry should get back from this base to about 15-plus percent growth, which the regulator also hopefully would be comfortable with. And as that growth comes back, we, as a digital player, would hope to grow faster than the industry. So unsecured will remain a focus area, and we are working really hard in terms of going deeper into the product and use of technology, which Sarbvir also alluded to. In terms of improving our productivity reach and efficiency, so unsecured will remain a focus area. But secured will have its own growth part because it started recently, and we've found a segment in PB Connect and PB Partners equivalent, which -- where we see a big opportunity, although at a lower margin, but a big scale opportunity.

Absolutely.

And my last question generally is, I mean, Yashish, your last guidance in the company was 2-plus years back. Today, we are pretty comfortable in terms of PB Fintech releasing that INR 1,000 crores plus in terms of net income for FY '27. Given the fact that even your new initiatives, margins are improving, your core business margins continue to improve, any thoughts in terms of coming up with a new guidance or revising that guidance as we head forward?

Yes, we don't like to give guidance very often. And usually, we are long-term thinkers, and that guidance was on some fundamental blocks of the business. So those blocks are fairly unshakable. So I think we will be able to hit those numbers and quite easily so. But I don't think we are giving any new guidance. And we don't give any guidance, like we don't have any guidance for next year or for the year 2028 or anything of that sort. We just gave a guidance for 2027 once. And I don't think we're changing guidance. If we do better, that's great.

Thank you, Sachin. We'll take the next question from Manas, Bernstein.

Trying to peel into unit economics a bit. I've never really liked the fact that your first year business is actually not making money in an industry that typically makes money almost entirely in the first year. I understand the LTV. So I wanted to understand what is the CAC trend and what really sits in the CAC? Is it just digital marketing? Is it something more? So that's the first piece. And there's a followup as well.

Yes. So if you wanted me to answer the first piece, let me just -- yes, finish the follow-up and then I can kind of -- we can answer it all in one go.

Sure. So the follow-up is related. So next year, sitting on this very strong new business growth, you should have very strong renewal business growth in terms of commissions. And therefore, margin should flow through if the economics is what it is.

So see, when I gave the INR 1,000 crore guidance, there was a very simple principle behind it. Because, by the way, it was given in November 2021. So it's a long, long time ago, right? But it was -- at that time, you used to make INR 1,000 crore losses. That was the time when the guidance was given. And why was the guidance given? It was based on one simple premise, nothing else. It was based on renewals doubling every 2 years, and you're seeing that. That's why I emphasized on one number. Renewal ARR is INR 665 crores; 2 years ago, that's the reason I mentioned 2 years ago, it was INR 287 crores. So we are more than doubling. And this will happen once more within the next 2 years, right? It's currently growing at 46%. Whether you grow at 40%, 45%, you'll be in that ballpark. And that is your guarantor of profitability. Now coming to your question, the first question, which is -- see, ours is a very simple business. Life insurance, you make a bulk of the revenue in the first year. Motor insurance, you make about 2/3 of your -- or whatever, of your lifetime value in the first year or something like that. In health, fortunately or unfortunately, whichever way you want to think about it, we think it's fortunate, you make only 20% of your revenue -- of your NPV in the first year. And so you have a -- because health is a product where the premiums keep going up, commissions are flat, and in the first year, nobody makes money by selling health within 1 year, right? And thus, our CAC is about 22%, 23% of LTV. So it's a very high-margin business for us. But the point is our revenue in the first year is only 20%-odd of NPV or thereabouts. And thus, in the first year, we make a loss. It's a beautiful product. It's a product where we have our book for the last 17 years. And around IPO, we put out some of those numbers, and we can always start putting all those numbers. All those renewals are holding up. The renewals are higher than they've ever been before. Now you said because of the growth we've had in the last 18 months on health, yes, that should reflect into renewal -- higher renewals. And you are seeing that. If you look back, our renewal rate was slightly lower in the beginning of the year than in the latter part of the year. But again, if you look back, we had guided towards that. Because see, the only thing I will ever guide you on is renewals because that is fairly certain, like we know what our renewals next quarter and next year are going to be. Other pieces we don't know. We don't know where fresh growth is. And so fresh growth, we always shy from guidance. We just say, look, our target is 30%. We don't know. It's not a guidance. But -- and all of our businesses at an LTV level, we operate at about 2.7x. So what that means is our cost -- our acquisition cost, our service cost is less than 40% of our lifetime value, calculated with an IRR of 15%, right? And it goes through a lot of checks and balances. It is not that business just puts it and we take it. It is based on a lot of scrutiny and a lot of data over the last 17 years. But that's our current number. We're at about 2.7. We would love to be at 3, but that's not as important as growth. Because if you're at 2.7, you do want to grow.

Understood.

I hope that clarifies.

Thanks for the detailed answer. I would love to have more disclosures around this from the DRHP time, but that's it.

Thank you, Manas. We'll take the next questions from Dipanjan, Citi.

Hope I'm audible.

Yes.

So just a few -- first a few questions. So one, I missed the PoSP premium data when you mentioned it, if you can spell that and also the PB Corporate premium data. Second, you mentioned in the presentation that the revenues from the lending business through the partner channel is around -- was around 70 -- INR 7 crores, sorry, in the 2Q. Could you give the similar number for 3Q? And third, again, I mean if I just look at your overall disbursals to existing customers in Paisa, the ratio to existing customers seems to have dropped. So are you getting new customers because of your relative change in mix towards more of secured business? And how do you see this trajectory going ahead?

Paisa, I'll leave to Naveen. Just the number -- from a numbers perspective, PoSP INR 1,326 crores is the premium of the quarter. The other premium you wanted was?

The corporate business?

Corporate is about INR 390 crores.

Got it. On the adviser revenue for the Paisabazaar business...

Yes. On Paisabazaar, your question was PB Connect. Q2 revenue was INR 7 crores; and Q3, that number would be around INR 24 crores, right? And your second question was around the customer growth?

Sorry, just to followup, so this would be included under the new initiatives contribution profitability from this quarter onwards? Is my understanding correct?

This is revenue. This is not profits. This is revenue. It is, as of now, a loss-making business. It makes a loss of about INR 3 crores to INR 4 crores a quarter. INR 4 crores a quarter.

Okay. So just to -- so if I understand correctly, ex of this, I mean, if you were comparing apples-to-apples, so new initiatives might have been maybe, whatever, maybe 4% or 5% contribution margin during the quarter if you are doing it on a historical accounting basis?

It's very small right now, INR 24 crores is very small in the overall scheme of things as far as new initiative is concerned. But yes, you maybe right, a couple of percentage points here and there.

Got it. And on the existing customer disbursements, I mean, that seems to have dropped. So are new customers coming into the ecosystem because of this product mix change in...

I'll explain to you in a very fundamental way and leave Naveen to answer. Consumer demand is not down. Supply is down. And -- so it is not that we are seeing less consumers, it is just the loans available to people are far fewer. Naveen?

And we continue to acquire, to your question, on new customer acquisition. New customers typically experience credit score as a first product. So there, we continue to acquire about 5, 5.5 lakh new customers every month. That's not down. And secured is not very relevant from the number of consumers' perspective because the ticket size is very high. It's a 40 lakh average ticket size. So that is not a consumer driver, it is a disbursal and then eventually a revenue driver but not a number of consumer. Number of consumers is more credit score driven, which is now at about 49.5 million. And then, of course, some of them take unsecured, some of them take credit cards, some of them take some of the other products. Secured is not a number of consumer driver.

Just one small question, if I can squeeze in. Your yields on the insurance business seems to have gone up. So is this more of a function of mix change? Or if you can give some color on that.

It's nothing very dramatic is what I would say. I think it's fairly within -- yes, just totally mix, nothing more.

And obviously, fresh business might have slightly higher yield than renewal business, that may have some impact.

It's almost flat.

Almost flat. It's almost flat, by the way, yes.

Thank you, Dipanjan. We'll take the next question from [ Neeraj ], UBS.

So I just saw in one slide that we have entered into FLDG arrangement with one of the partners. FLDG arrangement with one of the partners. Can we elaborate more on that?

Yes. So Naveen will answer, but I will just give you a very quick detail. We, as the Board authorized it, one partner, because of lack of supply in the market, we went in for this. The way we are reporting our revenue, we are assuming that the FLDG, whatever we have promised in the FLDG, we lost it at the beginning itself. That's the assumption. So if we don't lose anything, it will come back. It's a -- yes, I don't think I should give out the exact number. I think Naveen just stopped me from saying that. But yes, we've 100% provision on day 1. So we've provision...

Restricted to only secured business or even unsecured?

No, it's unsecured. You don't need FLDG in secured, you need...

Yes, it's with one partner. The rationale was to try and work with them and see how does the profitability play out over a 36, 38 months, which is a typical tenor of a personal loan. This allowed us to expand the segment, which was our objective. We've taken a much lower FLDG than the allowed threshold by the regulator. And like Yashish mentioned, we are provisioning that as we kind of do business. We've already seen -- so this was end of December. We've already seen the expansion of the segment happen in January because of that.

So are we looking to expand this category?

From a revenue reporting perspective, please appreciate, there is no further risk. It is not like anything else is coming. Whatever we have put, we have already written it off. And if it comes back, it's only positive. And it is helping us expand the category, yes. And we may or may not do more of it, we'll see.

There'll be two filters that we will use to consider any other proposal. One would be that either it helps us expand the segment and expand the number of consumers we can go to and test it out along with the partner. The second would be to expand the margin. So if it's fitting one of those two objectives, then we would consider it and take it through the process of Board approval, et cetera, before we go live.

And is the unit economics higher than the normal unit economics in this category?

Unit economics are very similar. Like I said, this particular deal, the objective was to expand the segment. So by expansion, we have seen the higher disbursal growth, but unit economics is similar to what it would have been without the FLDG, very similar.

Net of FLDG -- but just wanted to clarify, net of FLDG, unit economics is similar. But I think it's a specific deal, I don't think we should comment too much on that particular deal in terms of its profitability, loss to us, et cetera.

Sure. And in terms of PB Connect, which we are now entering PoSP model into Paisabazaar, how is the unit economics? And can it be scalable significantly from here? Or again, it will be like similar to insurance PoSP model where the margins will be low for a very long period of time?

Yes, yes. So almost all the points that you mentioned in your comment, so it's very, very scalable. The opportunity is very high. We've seen that over the last few years and PB Partners has kind of shown the path there that in secured especially, home loans and LAP, there is a lot of business that's out there which requires physical processes and fulfillment. And it's very, very distributed and spread across multiple partners. So we're trying to build a platform to bring all of them together. As we build the scale, it will continue to be low margin. Currently, it's at negative margins, small negative margin, like Yashish mentioned. And the objective would be, again, as we scale it up and bring more efficiencies and bring more smaller distributors, the margin should continue to improve. And at some point, like PB Partners has reached now, it gets into the positive contribution zone.

See, unsecured is quite cyclical. So we're building this strategically so that Paisabazaar's cyclicality goes down. That's one of the primary reasons why we're building this. And of course, also those are influenced by the partners. Because suddenly we do large volumes with them. As you can see, it is already 1.4x the unsecured business in terms of overall disbursal and is going to grow quite rapidly. So that's the other part. Like PoSP built our relationship, this should also build our relations with the partners.

Got it. And last question, if I may squeeze in, is on the cost rationalization we talked about in the last call that we might free up some of -- on the capacity on Paisabazaar given slower growth. So I wanted an update on that?

Some of it has happened. But when you do that, it doesn't reflect immediately because there are processes, et cetera. But just to -- but yes, that's the process, it started. So you'll see some effect of it now onwards, like from December onwards it started coming, and a lot more impact will come from April onwards. That's not going to do anything else. It's just we've got empty offices right now. So those empty offices, we've given notices to leave those offices, but you can't just leave them, right? Your accounting still takes the costs, whether they're empty or fulfilled.

So how much savings if we can quantify we will be able to add?

Once we do the exercise, we'll update you, maybe Rasleen can update on that. We haven't quite done the exact exercise. But just to put in perspective, may sound a bit odd, but we almost have between 1,500 to 2,000 empty seats right now. That's a lot of seats. So if you do a per seat analysis, a seat typically costs, what, about per month, what, INR 10,000. Yes. So I'd leave it there. But that's a straightforward answer, right?

Thank you, Neeraj. We'll take the next question from Nischint, Kotak.

3Q was a weak quarter for life, as you mentioned, and I think you capacitated for more, but volumes were a little weaker. Just curious, how are you looking at fourth quarter? Have you sort of made similar investments? And any feelers that you have from insurance companies?

So I think, first of all, maybe I've given the wrong impression here. Our life business grew at more than 40%. So just putting that out there, right? So I should not give the wrong impression that it's been a weak quarter or anything of that sort. So the only thing is, in savings, we had got used to 100% growth Y-o-Y. That hasn't come, right? So our growth is definitely lower than that. And I think we -- our health and term businesses have grown exactly as expected. And that is a reflection of the market, that the savings business has been. But it's still decent growth over last year. Even if I look at current, I don't see any challenge in giving what our usual projections are as growth, only for the savings business, and of course, health and term should outdo that. So I think no point giving any specific guidance yet, but that's how I see it. I think savings, we're okay. I don't know if you've...

No, no. I mean, it's an obvious thing, right? If you are selling unit-linked products and if the market is soft, there will be some impact. I think that's what we are seeing.

You're anyway going 2x to your guidance. So just moving on to the nonlife part. The industry has moved to -- or the regulator has asked the insurance players to move to one by end formula. I believe, obviously, you're not part of it, so your premium numbers continue to be the way you've been doing it in the past. But have they changed the commission structures? Have they deferred the commissions for long-term policies?

I think we would prefer not to discuss commissions I think like this. We will obviously -- we are part of the industry. We follow all the rules and regulations as per the industry, and we continue to do that. See, Policybazaar is not a commission-hungry platform. I think we are more focused on number of customers, good -- better quality products, more affordable pricing, better service. So I think, yes, it's not really clashing right now with that approach.

And the data proof, if you want data based proof that, okay, we are saying we're not commission-hungry, but actually we must be commission-hungry because that's what everybody is supposed to be. Just look at the data, from the day of the IPO till today, our premium is about 6x higher. But our commissions are exactly the same. Obviously, a 6x larger player with larger market share should have been able to attract higher commissions if they wanted to muscle into it or something like that. So that's not our intent. That's never been our intent. We are exactly where we were. We're getting the same commission today as we were getting when we were 6x lower. And even when we're 30x lower, we're getting the same commission.

Sure. Got it.

Read us very clearly. We are growth or premium hungry. We are not growth or commission-hungry. It's -- I know that at some level from a financial perspective, that sounds very stupid. But I think at another level, it's very smart. We really want to be large in our impact. That's all.

Thank you, Nischint. We'll take the next question from Sanketh, Avendus.

See, my probably the question is on similar lines. So out of the total health what we do, just to understand, what portion is long term, say, 3-year indemnity health you sell? And just if you were getting upfront, whether you were recognizing commission on deferred basis or you were -- I mean, accounting profit I mean to say. NPV, I understand. But in accounting basis, you were recognizing on deferred basis or you are recognizing on cash basis? So that's the only thing I wanted to check.

So I'll give you a very simple answer to this. We have renewals and we have fresh. Overall, when you look at it, it all evens out. Because you have -- if you are doing a 3-year business, then your renewals from the last 2 years will not come up as renewals. So eventually, when you look at it, it's not a big impact to anyone, at least as far as we are concerned. I'd leave it there for now. We don't want to get to very specifics of how much is 3 years, how much is 2 years, et cetera. What I can say is our 3-year -- and this is important, our 3 years in the 18 months has been lower than our 3 years in the previous 18 months. And this is important so that you know that our number of transactions is actually growing. It's not like they're growing because we've had some 3-year story or something of that sort.

Got it. And just on the contribution margin on the core business. See, last year, if you see, on an average you reported around 44%, 45% contribution margin on the core business. But now that number, every quarter in the current year at least, seems to be dipping. Today, it is at 41-odd percentage. So I just wanted to understand, is it largely because of Paisa? Or is it largely because health has done very well? So just wanted to understand, how do you see...

You're absolutely right. Health has done very well. Health takes away about 3 to 4 percentage points. Let me explain to you in a very simple terms, when a business continues to grow for 18 months, 2 years, it scales up compared to the other businesses. So if the rest of the business is growing at, let's say, over the last -- if you take everything ex-health, it is growing downwards of -- maybe it's growing at 35%, 40%, right? And health has been growing at 55%, 60%, 65%. So let's say, it's growing at about 25% more than the rest of the business. Essentially, on that, you're making 0 compared to 45% that you were making on the overall piece earlier, right? And that affects you. Of course, your renewal piece is also coming in and that helps you. Plus, we have explained to you that on the -- we have -- we put a little extra effort in trying to get sales on the savings side. And we anticipated 100% growth, maybe we got 40%, 50% growth, whatever it was. So it wasn't 100%, that was all. I think if you think about it, over the multiple years, Policybazaar has been in that 42%, 44%, 45%, 45%, 42%, 41% range. And these changes are very minor compared to -- all I'm saying is, yes, you might want to worry about them. That's your choice. If you want to hear me say it, don't get fussed by this too much. It is largely some new health happening, some little investment here and there. When we -- whenever we want to, which is going to be a steady point, we can always take this a few percentage points up very quickly. And that's just a question of when do you get into a slightly lesser growth mode. It's not any time now.

Got it. And lastly, given you have a very strong health growth in the current year, I'd say close to the next year in the...

The market is growing at -- see, the market is growing at 10%, 12%. We are growing at -- I don't want to keep repeating it, it's like a multiple, multiple of the market growth. And everybody is trying. It's not like we're the only ones trying, right? Everybody is trying. So -- and I think Sarbvir is spot on. I don't think we can focus on this quarter, you had this profit, or last quarter, you had that much profit. That has to be seen over multiple years. And I'd say...

And I would just draw your attention. There's a very interesting slide that Rasleen puts out, right, which has a 4-quarter rolling average. Actually, if you look at that 4-quarter average, which has gone through various cycles, right, of different businesses going at different rates, you can see the very steady progression that we've been able to maintain for the last 3 years. And I think that is perhaps the right thing to focus on. Because 1 quarter here and there is very hard to explain also actually sometimes.

Okay. Got it. And lastly, one small thing. See, I mean, my back of the envelope calculation suggests that probably if retail health insurance industry size is around INR 10,000 crores, you are probably at 23% to 25% market share on new, what industry is generating and what you are generating. So you see this -- if you are already at 25%, 26% market share, you see there is a meaningful more scope to gain market share? Or incrementally, the growth might be not 3x of the industry, maybe a little lower than the industry average?

See, I don't think it's a market share problem anymore, right? And I don't want to get into what our exact market share is and whether what you're saying is correct or not correct. But I'm saying it's not a market share problem anymore. I think all of us need the industry to grow. And for all of us, for the industry to grow, certain things need to fall in place. And we are part of the solution. We will be a larger and larger part of the solution because we want to be. And I think we are being welcomed by the industry for that reason. As a seller, as a solution provider, as a bearer of new business, I think from many perspectives, we are coming at it but the whole idea is to have a steady industry which grows a lot. I think the industry is currently facing a challenge, right, that the growth is being restricted by the trust in the industry. You're seeing parliamentary conversations, this, that and others, there is a belief that claims is a hard process. And I again don't want to get into -- it's a large call, right? So I think that problem does need solutions. And as I said, we are part of the solution. So we allow growth to happen because we allow claims to be settled better. And I think that is the biggest part of our proposition.

Got it.

But a simple way to think about it is only 4 crore people in India today has health insurance. All said and done, whether we even come to the middle class, the middle class alone is perhaps 20 crores, 30 crores. So you have a lot of people who don't have health insurance yet. And I'm talking at lives, I'm not talking a number of policies on the retail side. And I'm not even talking about 140 crores Indians, right? I'm just talking about, whatever, 30 crores, 40 crores middle class.

Thank you, Sanketh. We'll take the next question from Srinath, Bellwether.

Just wanted to understand how is the performance marketing costs trending. My assumption is that our growth in health and term has largely been driven by conversions, may not be that much of upper funnel growth. So would the performance marketing cost as a percentage of revenue or premiums, have they seen a significant reduction given that health insurance has seen significant growth over the last 2 years? Second question on this would be, I would like to understand how persistency in health insurance renewals are playing out in the context that the base last year already health insurance growth had taken off. So just wanted to get a feel if -- how persistency is broadly trending. Yes, these are my two questions on Policybazaar.

I'll just answer the first part. See, whenever we have to advertise on Google or any performance marketing or anything else, we are another commodity player with a brand. So we are slightly more efficient than anybody else. We are probably 2x more efficient than anybody else because we're a recognized brand. But our primary way of growing is brand, which is that people come to us without us having to spend on performance marketing. And that is the bulk of our business. And specifically on health and term, that is the large part of our business. I think it's Sarbvir's prerogative to answer the remaining questions.

No, no. I also just want to explain to you on performance marketing, that you have to understand, it's an auction platform, right? Google is, at the end of the day, an auction platform. And it is our -- while we are obviously going to be a more efficient player than anyone else given our brand, given our experience in conversion, having a multitude of choices, it is our job to keep the foot on the pedal. We would not like to leave room on that side for anyone to find efficiency, right? So you should expect that we would be very, very -- whatever we can do to get the leads, we will do. Because as Yashish explained, our -- majority of our business is coming from our direct side. So the 20% business or so that we're getting from performance, I would never want to leave anything on the table because that is essentially leaving oxygen for someone else, right? So that we will never do. As far as renewal rates are concerned, very happy to tell you that in December -- and we look at it on a number of policy basis because I think that's the most important number. Both our first year renewal and our second year renewal onwards are at the highest rates that we've ever had. And again, this is because, obviously, our team has done a phenomenal job. The products that we have introduced with our insurance partners over the last few years, we've been talking about the modular products, they have this feature that the no claim bonus increases rapidly every year. And that, as you can imagine, acts as a some sort of a barrier to leaving that product. And hence, we have seen our renewal rates and I think we have room to grow in terms of improving our renewal rate persistency. All the work that we do on the service side should finally translate to higher and higher renewal rates. I think a fairly straightforward equation.

Fantastic. Congratulations on that. On Paisa, just one question. There's this number in our presentation monthly inquiries. That number has actually seen a significant growth. I wanted to just clarify or understand what drives that particular metric.

Which slide number is this on?

Monthly inquiries.

No, no, I think that should be a typo. Apologies for that. That should be quarterly inquiries. It should not be monthly.

Okay, okay. Congratulations on a good set of numbers, guys.

Thank you.

Thank you, Srinath. We'll take the next question from Nidhesh, Investec.

Two questions. Firstly, if you can share contribution margin and EBITDA margin for credit business, so for the core credit business?

Yes, yes, we are there, we're there. It's in line with the overall core business. So roughly in the 40s. And the overall EBITDA margin is 9%.

On the credit side, core credit side?

Credit side is 9% and 45%. So it's actually more efficient than Policybazaar, because it's also a factor of the NPV of Policybazaar. So -- but right now, it's at 45% on the core business.

Sure, sure. And secondly, what would be the -- your market share on the new health side for, let's say, for 9 months or any period...

We don't discuss that, yes. We don't discuss that.

Sure, sure. And lastly, just a comment that if you can share the renewal rates, the way you have shared in DRHP and RHP, that would be very helpful.

See, as I explained to you, we're not caring about this. Our mindset has shifted. Our mindset have shifted from Policybazaar should be big towards the industry should be big. We know that the industry is big, then we will also be big and so would our partners be big. I think that works for everybody. That's really how we are thinking about it. And I think for that, fundamental problems need to be solved. We have deep problems. It's not an easy problem to solve for any nation as far as health care is concerned, and we hope we are going to be a part of the solution.

Sure, sir. And just one comment is that if you can share the renewal rates the way you have shared in the RHP on health specifically, that will be very useful on the cohort basis.

We don't share exact numbers. But yes, we'll look into it. We'll probably try and share it in the future.

Thank you. We'll take the next question from Madhukar, Nuvama.

Congratulations on a good set of numbers. First, just your contribution margin has been lower. But if I look at your adjusted EBITDA margin for the existing business, that has improved. So there has been a pretty good control over cost, the indirect cost.

Don't say that, don't say that, don't say that. You're making my life harder. Do not say that. That's not true, so any way...

And this is despite you telling us that -- you mentioned 1,200 to 1,500 vacant seats. So I wanted to understand what is going to be driving this? And when do we see either we eliminating some of these seats or refilling up these seats for future growth?

We've already given the -- listen, don't take it too seriously. We've already given the notice to the real estate guy that we are getting into those seats. It's just that we can't empty those offices, right? So the offices will get emptied by April where notices are playing out, right? So all that will lead to is our depreciation costs and all those coming down and financing costs coming down, hopefully. Don't take them too seriously. It will have some impact, and you'll see it by April. We did overplan a bit on the Paisa side, and the requirement was much lower finally. So that's what I would say. And on OFC, our costs are not low, please, don't get that wrong. Our revenue has increased as a percentage, OFC will look low. Of course, if your revenue is growing 45%, thank god our OFC is not growing at 45% here. But our OFC is growing quite fast.

To be honest, I just want to explain to you that our marketing, actually, our television in Q3 was higher -- significantly higher than last year, because we were on air all 3 months. Many times in Diwali, we don't -- that month, we reduced our spend significantly. But this time, we were on air 3 months. So I would say that whatever be Yashish's view on the cost but as far as the numbers reflect, the fact is that this quarter, we were able to leverage our fixed cost quite effectively.

Yes. Because when I look at -- when I back out the fixed cost or indirect costs between contribution and adjusted EBITDA margin, for 6 months, there's a growth of about 12.5%. But for 9 months, there's actually a decline on a year-over-year basis.

You seem to be on Sarbvir's take here, that's all I can say.

So is this sustainable? Because then that could lead to a higher margin expansion in Q4 and beyond? So how should we think about this? And what is driving this?

Sarbvir will answer this. Perfect. You've set it up for Sarbvir.

I would look at it more on a long-term basis that, yes, we would -- we try to maintain, as we've always mentioned, that we would like to keep our fixed costs growing significantly slower than our revenue. And again, I would say 3 months is not the right way to look at it. But yes, over a period of time, that should happen. And we'll see, we'll see how it goes. I mean it's -- see, if you have to invest in new businesses, new -- people are the...

Yes, we'll do the right thing, yes. It's as simple as that, we'll do the right thing.

Got it. And also coming back to this whole thing by the regulator of accounting for long-term policies on one by end basis, are we changing our strategy in any way? Because I think what I sort of understood from...

Madhukar, we are not so small. Like honestly, we're not so small that we would change our strategy basis some commission payout or something of that sort, no, not at all. We want to be big in health, we will continue to be big in health, we will continue to do 3-year plans, 2-year plans, 1-year plan, everything. In fact, if I was to say from a -- and again, I don't want to -- from a competitive perspective, there's a huge advantage to Policybazaar, right? Because as a player, we are very keen to go down that direction of investing in our growth. Not everybody can invest in growth.

And as an insurance broker, I would tend to believe that it's always better for you to sell a 3-year plan over a 1-year plan, right, because it guarantees you persistency upfront or reduces lapse rate?

When you look at a 10-year view, and because we have the data thankfully of the last 10 years, the numbers basically becomes even-steven here. There's lots of factors and it's a more detailed conversation. There are lots and lots of factors that go into this decisioning. But over a 10-year period, it's the same story, whether you sell 1-year plan or 10-year plan becomes the same thing.

Understood. And just I haven't gotten a chance to go through...

Because a 3-year plan will have one decision point at the end of 3 years, which will have a higher drop than a continuous drop. So there will be lots and lots of complexity. We can have a proper conversation. It's like it's a long conversation.

Okay. Got it. And can you just give me your renewal premium for the platform business and for the new initiatives separately?

Our core business on renewals is...

No, no, no. Premium.

Premium, yes, premium is about -- just over INR 2,000 crores. Yes, just about INR 2,050 crores. That's our renewal premium, INR 2,042 crores. For core, that's only core. And all the new businesses put together will be about INR 500 crores more. So we have about INR 6,000 crores or INR 6,100 crores of total business, right, which means we have an ARR of about INR 24,000 crores. About half is fresh, a little more than half is fresh. About 55% -- almost 60% is fresh. 50%, 57% is fresh. 43% is renewals. Which is a great place to be if your new business is more than your renewals because that means you're really growing fast.

Thank you, Madhukar. We'll take the last question from Rina, Trident Capital.

Congratulations for the good set of numbers. So I have basically three questions. What is your market share in the incremental life business within the industry? That is one. Another is, like how big is your saving business for you now in terms of premium? And the third is, what is your agent productivity? Like if you break down your growth between your agent product -- agent growth and productivity growth?

Honestly, I think each of these questions, I think the -- we don't discuss market share, as you would have seen on the call. I think it's not necessarily a very relevant metric. Obviously, our term market share is more than our, I would say, savings market share. But I don't think that's -- beyond that, we would like to discuss. I think equally, I wouldn't necessarily like to put a number. I think maybe Rasleen can share whatever is normally shared with you later in terms of what is the relative sizes of the businesses. We are obviously a big source of term business for the industry, so I think our -- that will be a disproportionately higher share for Policybazaar as compared to the overall industry. And I think the last point you asked was about agent productivity and again, I would say...

Agent growth and productivity, Yes.

Yes. See, this varies by quarter because we build scale for the season. So what happens is that the first 2 quarters, typically we build agent's size and numbers and sectors, et cetera. And then we try to, obviously, the back half of the year, we tend to do better in terms of productivity. So I would say in Q3, it was similar. That yes, productivity was not as good as we would have hoped to be, because like we said, we had just set very ambitious growth targets. But other than that, I would say, yes, largely the -- it would be 50-50 in Q3. And in Q4, I think it will be higher on the productivity side than on the growth side because we will not add capacity in Q4.

So then it is better to assume like if you expect to grow 30%, so then you will be adding 30% more agents or employees who bring business for you? Or there will be the existing agent who will be more productive and can bring 30% more business? So just trying to understand.

Yes, it's a mixture of both. It's not an exact science in that sense. Because what also happens is it depends if you're opening a new center, it's a different geography versus existing geography. So overall, we look at -- we assume a certain productivity growth of existing people, and then we do our capacity planning. And typically, see, we are not aiming for 30% growth, we are aiming for much higher growth. So there is an element of always having to add capacity as we go along.

Okay. And if you can say that how big is the saving business in terms of percentage of total premium right now...

I will let Rasleen answer that question. Because we don't discuss that actually, we don't disclose those exact numbers.

Thank you very much, everyone. I really appreciate your patience listening in till -- until quite late. And once again, apologies for the late start. Thank you very much. Take care, yes. Have a good evening.