Pirelli & C. S.p.A. (PIRC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

So we'll be back in a second. We do want to keep you waiting in the room. So members of the media and the press are not authorized to be on this call. If you are from the media or the press, please disconnect from the call now. The content presented on this conference call is proprietary to and/or subject to the copyrights of Jefferies or authorized parties. Further, as a matter of legal compliance, we remind you that you must not attempt to elicit from any speaker at this event any material. [Technical Difficulty] Can we just mute you guys for a second?

Hello?

Yes. Can you just mute for a second, Aldo? I'm just running through a disclaimer.

Yes.

Excellent. Thank you. Further, as a matter of legal compliance, we remind you that you must not attempt to elicit from any speaker at this event, any material, non-public information or other confidential information, and accordingly, the speaker may decline to respond to any question in his or her sole discretion. You may not publish or otherwise publicly disclose the name of or otherwise identify the speakers unless Jefferies permitted in writing. Please note this call is being recorded. By attending this event, you agree to all of these restrictions. Okay, I just had to get that out of the way. It looks like, Aldo, we've got your team there. Is that correct?

Yes, yes.

On the call from Pirelli, we have: Matteo Battaini, Chief Sustainability and Future Mobility Officer; Eleonora Giada Pasini (sic) [ Eleonora Giada Pessina ], Group Sustainability Officer; and Aldo Perrone, Investor Relations Officer. From the Jefferies side, we have Luke Sussams, Head of Sustainability and Transition Strategy; and myself, I cover Pirelli amongst other European Auto stocks. Thank you very much, Matteo, Eleonora and Aldo, for joining us today. We're going to start with some opening discussion and then get over into questions. If you have any questions for any speakers, please feel free to email myself or Luke and we can ask them or you can put your hand up. Matteo, Eleonora and Aldo, over to you.

Okay, Michael, thank you very much and for the introduction, and good afternoon to all our participants. Pirelli has delivered solid financial and sustainability performance in recent years. Today, with our colleague, our Senior ESG Management team, Matteo and Eleonora we'll be discussing the key sustainability issues in the tire industry and our sustainability strategy and achievements. I will now leave the floor to Matteo.

Thank you very much, Aldo. And are we showing...?

Yes, I'm showing. Just a second.

Perfect. We'll start with a short introduction about what is the macro trends and the Sustainability and ESG related trends of our industry, and then going very quickly across the sustainability plan that [ we earlier ] presented together with industrial plan last March. And then to touch domain topics, then open forum for your question. If you look at the macro trends, what we can say at very high level is that mobility demand, that is...

Sorry, I'm just going to -- one question. Quick, Aldo, can we just move the computer a bit closer to Matteo? It might be a bit easier to use.

Yes. Perfectly, yes.

Excellent.

Can you hear me better?

That's much better. Thank you.

Okay. Thank you very much. Okay, I was saying mobility demand that is the main driver for our business is growing. If you look at the long term trends, it's projected to grow by 40% 2030 compared to the 2015 numbers. It is linked to the long term growth in demographic and in GDP all around the world. Mobility is evolving, not just growing towards electrification. That despite some short-term adjustment in supply and demand is confirming that, for what concern Pirelli, 80% of the global premium and prestige car production will be electric by 2030. With this, OEMs are pushing to decarbonize their life cycle footprint and are always asking for lower rolling resistant tires made with less fossil materials and with lower wear rate. And on the other hand, also consumers are rising there and are putting sustainability on top of their purchasing driver, especially the youngest generation. And social factors are rising prominence on the market, but also on the workplace. And finally, in this context, there is institutional European community first, but also U.S. with the IRA and China with their plan, long term plan that are legislating at a pace that has never seen before on the topic of ESG. In this context, Pirelli, as I said, has built a plan that is built on 4 pillars, 4 action pillars to implement the strategy. The first one is acting on climate change. Then we have a pillar about developing a sustainable product. The third pillar is about protecting natural resources. And then last but not least, our, let's say, people plan that cover all the social aspects all around our value chain. Starting from the first one, that is the -- our climate action. We did set up ambitious decarbonization programs. We did, after having reached for the second times in a row to target of SBTi, we did submit the new targets. New targets in terms of the carbonization of our own Scope 1 and 2 emissions. And then for the Scope 3, our supplier's emissions. We set the target of carbon-neutrality by 2030 in our Scope 1 and 2, that means reducing our emission by 80%, compensating the remaining 20%; and then by 2040, the ambitious target of net 0 that involve not just our emission but also our supplier emissions. Talking about product, which are the main characteristics of what we call a sustainable product or a sustainable tire. A sustainable tire has to be sustainable inside, so made from materials that are less and less fossil-derived. And here we have designed together with R&D this new flagship product that we name it P Zero E that is the new generation of sustainable product for the good, [ ultra, high ] performance vehicles. And this P Zero E in example is made by more than 55% of material that is not fossil. So is bio-based or recycled derived. It's made in factories with use of renewable electricity, is designed for the new electric mobility, and then is sustainable use. Sustainable use means that help our customer, being the car makers, the OEM or the end consumer, to reduce their overall emissions in the environment. Emissions in terms of CO2. And so this product, like the new ones that we are going to develop, are at the lowest class of rolling resistance in the European energy level. Not just rolling resistance, but always in sync with the safety. So this product is a AAA product. That means the lowest level of rolling resistance, the highest level of wet grip, and the lowest level of emission of noise. And then emission, not just of CO2 in use, but also of the so-called tire wear. So when a tire is used, when you brake, when you make curves, the tires is consumed, and so it release the tire particulate inside the environment. Developing, designing and producing tires with always a lower wet wear means reducing also the impact of particulate inside the environment. This is -- I'm talking about wear, about wear we said that we did set targets of reduction year-by-year and product-by-product, that are quite ambitious. The product launch in the period 2022 has been 22%, with a lower wear rate compared to the their predecessor. We set progressively target going up to minus 30% for the tires launch between 2025 and 2030. All of this, let's say to always develop technologies and let's say compound and mixing knowledge to then cope with this topic, and then to be prepared in anticipation of what the new regulation will ask for. And an example of new regulation that will regulate the amount of abrasion of the tires in the market is Euro 7 by 2027, and then implementation by 2028-2030. It's not just a matter of quantity, it's also a matter of reducing the quantity and the amount of particulate in the environment is also a matter of what we call quality. And so the size of the particulate and the material composition. Because if you look at what is called the tire road wear particle, because when a tire is a [ treading ] when going on the road is mixed immediately with the street dust, with the brakes, with everything that it's found, and create this kind of element that is called tire road wear particle. And as I said, the activity that we are doing together also with all the industry is the reduction [ of sources. ] So try to make -- to produce tires with always less wear rate to work on the generation and size, because as small is the particle as potentially dangerous is because it's entering in the area of [ the PM10, PM2.5 ]. Though new frontier, is to work also on the quality of the materials and to let this rubber become more and more biodegradeable. And here we are working with [ JDA ] and with our supplier, most close supplier, to develop solution that is going in that direction. And then working with all the other stakeholders, namely the one that build the roads and create system for cleaning and collection, is the capturing area. Because the one, the particulate that we cannot, let's say, avoid to produce, has to be collected in the correct way along the streets. Materials. Materials inside the tires is the challenge in terms of technological innovation and engineering. As I said, our target and the target of all the industry is to arrive at an ambition 100% non-fossil origin tire. We set targets year-by-year on how to go there, and we will go there first of all, creating a sort of flagship product where we can demonstrate and we can technically develop something and put on the market that has always a higher percentage of this innovative material. We set the target of higher than 55% with P Zero E in 2023. And by 2030 we want to put on the market a product that has higher than 80% of content that is not fossil. Not just on flagship product, but also then use this technology, and including the overall production that we do. Now, we are at 23% at 2023. And we target by 2030 to arrive at least 40% of the overall quantity of materials that we use that are bio-based or recycled. This in full transparency for the end consumer, because we put a logo inside the tires that identify the product that has this higher percentage. And this is not just a self declaration, but we are using third-party certification to certify and give evidence of the fact that really those materials are inside our products. And in terms of certification, also the natural rubber that counts for more or less 20% inside a tire that is bio-based because it's naturally derived, but that has a supply chain that is the most fragile between the one that we have. Because all the natural rubber is coming from areas -- in the tropical areas, especially the far east area, with issues in terms of protection of the forest and the protection of the people that lives and produce this, let's say, product that is coming from say, forest management and agricultural management. So for there, we decided also to link and to join with FSC, Forest Stewardship Council. That is the most recognized organization that is taking care about the protection of the forest management and the people that lives and works in that area. And we did develop first -- the first time in 2021 that is FSC-certified. That means that all the materials coming from Forrestal source are certified and tracked from the origin till the final end. We did produce tires for the BMW X5 in U.S. in 2021. From 2024, we are using the FSC-certified rubber for all the tires that we are using in Formula One and all the races of Formula One. And by 2026 we have the target to include 100% of the rubber that we use in our European plan that is FSC-certified. All of this is supporting and helping then the compliance with the upcoming European Deforestation Regulation that will go into effect by the end of this year and will ask especially to have a complete tracking and due diligence on the source and origin of the forest and the commodity that are coming from the forest. I finish my speech with this slide that is summarizing all our strategy around the product in the name of the circular economy and the circularity activity. So we are working and we are looking through a life cycle assessment on all the impact that our product is doing, is having on the environment from when -- from the design up until the end of life. We are introducing virtualization in the design phase that is helping a lot in reducing the amount of material and of product that are used for testing. We are changing the materials, as I explained before. We are working on operations to change all the processes and to become less emitting, including the logistics part. And we are working also in the end of life part of our product with a solution for the recovery of the end of life tire. And working with supplier and with partners also in activities trying to recover and reuse the materials after the end of life and to reinsert inside the cycle, especially the carbon black through the paralysis technique. I think this was my last slide and I hope I'm being short enough. And then I leave to you the floor for any questions.

Excellent. Thank you very much, Matteo. Are there any other comments from your side? Or we can jump into questions out there.

No, we can go directly to the questions.

Excellent. We've got a bunch of people put in questions as they're registered for the event. So I'll kick one -- kick us off with 1 on the EV transition from what you're seeing. Are we seeing slowdown in the shift to EVs? Or is this just temporary, the kind of slower growth rates? And how do heavier EVs impact the environment from a tire perspective?

Yes. I mean, my personal comment or the comment under my observation on the market of EVs, what we are seeing is that the long term trend is still like it was. And when I talk about long term trend, I'm talking about 2030-2040. For sure, we are entering into the phase that goes from the, let's say early adopter to the, let's say most mass utilization of EVs. And so there is for sure, especially in some economies, a slowdown or a change in the profile of demand. For sure there are activity links also to the incentives in various countries that are, let's say moving the numbers around in the short term, [ EV ] registration. But still, I think that all the investment that are projected and has been done all around the world are saying that EV is the way for the passenger car mobility in the future.

And the impact, as we switch to EVs on tires from either -- what's the impact on your product?

Yes, EVs are using more tires. Using more tires because they are heavy, because they have a torque that is higher than the one of the normal cars, ICE cars. Heavier. Of course, they are heavier compared to the same kind of cars. But if you look also on the last 10 years trend, also the SUVs that has replaced the cars are heavier than cars. So the fact that all the car park is progressively becoming heavier is a reality not just for the EV, but in general terms for all the transition to higher weight cars. Having said that, and EV is generally speaking is consuming tires more or less 20% more than comparable tires -- comparable car, not EVs. That's why tires that are designed for EVs has to have a lower wear rate than the one of standard tires, just that, because otherwise the consumer itself is not happy about the fact that he has to change tires more frequently if you choose EVs.

Got it. So you're incorporating that into the product already with a lower wear rate. Okay, interesting.

The example that I was making before. So the P zero E is 42% lower wear rate than the compared P Zero for [ SUV tire ].

Great, thanks.

Thanks Matteo, and thanks, Michael. Just a quick one from me. We had a lot of questions come in beforehand around the Euro 7 regulations. I think you covered a good number of them. Maybe just to really summarize that, could you just again speak to Pirelli's strategy for meeting the regulations, just quickly? And then maybe a unique part to this, there's a question. Are there any similar regulations coming in, in the U.S. as well?

Yes, I start on the second. There are at the horizon, not anything fixed the in U.S. for sure will come. I think that as usual, maybe some countries like California or also even Canada will take [ occasion ] from the European regulation to include it. But for the moment, there is nothing at the horizon. Coming to the first one. I mean, we are preparing with product that has always lower wear rate, then saying if we will be in line with the regulation? We don't know because the test method is not yet been defined. So the step of the Euro 7 regulation will be by 2027, there will be defined test method. The actors are acting in designing unit, and to define the real rule on how to do it in real life terms. Once the method will be designed, there will be a market test to say, what is the current level of the abrasion rate of the tires on the market. And then by 2028, there will come the limits and regulations. So by then we will understand if and how much we are closer to this limit or what if we have to improve more to be, let's say, line.

Makes sense. Great. Thanks. Sorry.

And 2 kind of follow ups for me on that. Just broadly, what is the reduction in the number of particulates that --- like, is there a percentage reduction kind of number we can have in our head that Euro 7 is bringing in?

I mean, it's not yet decided. Nobody has decided. I can imagine that something between 15% and 25% compared to the non-average market number that will come out from the test is a reasonable or at least is a target that is in line with all the other green dealer regulations in Europe. So I expect something like that.

Okay. No, that's useful. And do you expect that there will be penalties for manufacturers who don't meet the kind of targets? Or how do you think that will kind of manifest in terms of the market also?

So yes. The logic of application is still things that are still to be decided. This can be in 2 ways. One is setting limits. And so, I mean, it's a regulation limit. So only the tires that are above these limits can stay in the market. The other are not allowed to enter the market or -- and, we will see also linked to the logic of the label. Like there is the European label that has different grades of tire wear. In that case, like we have different grades of rolling resistance and so on. So there is a premium for the best one or the lowest one. But I mean, a limit, for sure. The European communities of the Euro 7 will set a limit. Then we will see how the industry will adapt to this limit.

Got it. Okay. There's a question from the audience, so I'll go straight to that. From [ Eva], we're just going to see. You should be unmuted. Yes. You can ask your question.

Good afternoon. So I have a few questions. First of all, you mentioned the P Zero new tire model. I wonder, how much percent is that representing your current revenue and what's the volume? And secondly, you mentioned that you will use bio-based material, recycled material for the tires. And I'm just wondering how would you get the feedstocks. And lastly, on the FSC-certified rubber tire, are you going to roll it out outside EU? And also, for the SLB that you issued today, that you mentioned that you will reduce the Scope 3 upstream emission by 28%, I'm wondering how would you achieve that. Thanks.

Okay, I tried to respond and maybe forgot some point. P Zero. P Zero is a the main line for our ultra high performance and high value tires. If I remember well, the weight of high value is above 60%.

75%.

75%. So it's not everything P Zero because there is also some [ hint ] let's say, to give you a feeling, is all the tires that goes on the premium and prestige cars for the UHP. Then about the materials, how we are going to get them. We are -- we have designed together with R&D road map of all the materials to arrive to best target, so to be 70% and the 80% and so on. So we more or less know which are the materials. We are working with suppliers to identify and to make investment on their side, where is needed on the -- On these new materials. And the availability of feedstock for these new materials is not something that is available right now. But by 2040 we have a road map that is linked with the investment of our suppliers. So let's say we are quite confident that we can have those supply at that also -- not just in terms of availability, but also with a cost that is comparable with the cost of the materials, and not sustainable that we are using now.

The other question is, FSC outside the Europe. And then Scope 3 reduction [ levers. ]

Okay. FSC outside Europe. So we said that by 2026 we want to cover the 1% of the European production and then enlarging to the factories that are supplying, let's say Europe in terms of tires or in terms of other materials afterwards. And then to arrive also to cover all the world. We don't have yet [ here ] about that, because this is linked on the capacity of the supplier, to then certify themselves FSC and to the enlargement of the supplier. But I think that is something that with the next plan we can foresee and include also for the rest of the world. Sorry. Last one?

Scope 3 reduction.

Okay. Scope 3 reduction. Scope 3 reduction is mainly linked to 4 big action and activity. The first one is engagement. We already started 2 years ago to engage with all the supplier to give you also a rough number. We have more or less 30 suppliers that makes more than 80% of our emission base. We have engaged with those people. Engaging means also asking them to set SBTi target also themselves like we are doing, and to start using all the best practices like renewable electricity, renewable energy in their production and so on. So step one, engagement. Step 2, redesigning also the sourcing map about this supplier in order to reduce also the logistics and so to become more local per local in our supply chain to reduce that part of Scope 3 that is linked to the inbound logistics. And this is what will bring us to the minus 30% at 2030. Then to make the other big step is change -- [ insert ] the changing materials. So after that we have to change materials from fossil origin to non-fossil origin and using raw materials that are with an emission factor that is a lot lower than the one that we are using now.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I'm just going to follow up on that. And then we have another question on the line. Do you have the kind of key technologies that will allow you to reduce Scope 1 emissions? I've heard a lot about electro, I think it's called electrical curing as opposed to steam curing?

Yes. Yes. This is the main project that we set to reduce Scope 1 and 2. Basically, as it is now, our emissions are coming as it was -- are coming 50% from electricity and 50% from steam. Steam is used in our curing presses that are the one that press the tires and make it available. We are completely changing the technology. So after 150 years, the steam technology of presses, we are phasing out and we are phasing in new electric curing machines in order to then use electricity instead of steam. When we are using electricity, we can then use renewable electricity coming from renewable sources, and so to reduce our emission. Not just that, but there is an incredible advantage in terms of energy saving because our electric curing presses is consuming 80% less than a steam curing presses. We're also saving in terms of money of the energy that we are using. So this is a project with EUR 22 million per year of investment from now up until 2030 to change all the more or less 2000 presses that we have all around the world.

That's great. Thanks. And we have a question from [ Sarah. ] I will just see if I can ask to unmute. You should. Yes, go ahead. We can't hear you. I see your hand has gone down here. Your hands up. I see all you muted and unmuted, but we don't have sound at the moment. Maybe we can try again after the next question. And if that doesn't work, you can email through.

Email me. I'll answer.

Luke, did you have next one or do you want me to go?

Go on this one? Yes. Go ahead with the next one you have.

Okay, the next one I have is you have a very fragmented supply chain from the question, how do you ensure raw materials traceability in that kind of operating environment?

Yes, [ I say -- ] is quite, I would say. I wouldn't say it's fragmented everywhere. We do have supply chain that is quite difficult to manage like the one of the natural rubber that is very fragmented because it's coming from those single tree of the single lot of land up to 7 step that we have. We do have some critical chemical materials that is, that we trace and track constantly. But then we have also some bulk like carbon black or synthetic rubber. That is a direct product coming from the petrochemical industry. That is a very short supply chain. But for the critical one, how do we manage? I think that in terms of natural rubber, everything related to EDR and FSC is linked to this. It's monitoring there. I mean, with FSC we already started to have a complete tracking of the supply chain of the natural rubber from the origin up until inside the factory and up until to our customer, because then we have to track them and we are using all the new technology and the digital technology that is supporting this. And linked with that, we have also a complex system of relationship with our supplier with yearly also assessment of their practices and ESG practices. That is assuring the compliance of all the material in all those type of supply chains.

We'll try Sarah again and if it's work, I've got a follow up on EDR. Sarah, do you want to see if that is working now?

No, it doesn't seem to be. We can't hear you, unfortunately. My email is [email protected], M and then my surname. If you send it through, I can ask. Otherwise, if you keep your hand up, I'm happy to try again.

On EDR, you mentioned it's kind of coming in at the end of the year. It's not my expertise, but I think that's what you mentioned. How do you expect that? Are you guys ready for that? How is that going to impact the business? Kind of the end of the year, 6 months away?

Well, we have to be ready because after January 1, nobody can let's say, place rubber and tires on the market without being ready for EDR. So we are still several months that we're working on and we will be ready by that time. The time is still a big, let's say, political terms, confusions, not just for rubber, but I think for all the commodities that are linked to the EDR. Because the rules, the systems, everything is not yet ready to be used and checked, will be ready just at the end of the year. So we will know if all our activities are complying with the rules just 2 months before starting that. But having said that, I mean, we will be -- we will have all the materials compliant with the due diligence regulation that are asked from the regulation. There will be, let's say, I think, some movement on the market due to the fact that especially tires can be anticipated before the end of the year. And then they will have, let's say, maybe a shortfall in imports by the beginning of next year.

And a follow up. How much support do you get from your OE customers on the kind of nature rubber traceability or the kind of EDR regulations?

Yes. I mean, we did the work with OEMs, but generally speaking, with a lot of stakeholders up and down our value chain on the platform of GPSNR and on other platform. Like an example, our project of FSC for BMW was an example of a [ TBT ] done on that platform to be able to create a solution, sustainable solution for supply chain. I would say that now that we are in the implementing phase, every actor is working by its own in parallel, because timing is short and I mean, the platform at this moment are a little bit out of the real game.

We'll try Sarah, once more. Sarah, I'm going to hit ask to unmute and see if that works. No, it doesn't seem to be. We might have to put you in contact with Matteo and his team afterwards and you can ask your question directly. Just thinking about circularity. What are the kind of key, kind of key barriers to overcome in the next few years to kind of move towards that circularity and recycling of the product?

More than barriers there, there are only opportunities in the next years because, since there is no -- given the fact that, I mean, especially in Europe, end of life tires has been collected and recovered in different way at the level of 95%. So, I mean, almost everything that is put at the end of life has been used for something, but it has been used and is being used for recovery of energy or for downcycling of the product. So to make, let's say, rubber goods for buildings, construction and so on. Now the real challenge is to reuse and to recover the material and to recover materials at the level that can be reused at virgin materials inside the [indiscernible] and the pyrolysis technology that is being matured in this period, in this day is a good opportunity to then recover the end of life tires for cycle carbon black or for tire pyrolysis oil that can then reuse on the chemical industry to recreate synthetic rubber and so on. So there is a lot of activities and work on this and let's say we are watching and we are cooperating on these tables.

I don't think, you know that you mentioned 95% of the materials are being recovered and recycled into other uses?

Yes, 95% of tires and of life are collected. Then out of this 50%, more or less 50% is used for the cement industry as energy recovery. So to burn together with cement and 50% is recovered in other kind of product.

And last one I think we have time for that's been emailed in is who are the suppliers that make the tire materials recyclable? So kind of the inputs into recyclable, the recyclable materials.

Yes, I think the raw material in a tire are quite simple. As I said, the natural rubber, that is a [ biograde ] material, synthetic rubber, carbon black, then you have textile and steel basically, and then some chemicals on it. So overall, let's say basic materials and everybody is doing the same, same basic -- the real question is the technology that is at the end of the process that can reutilize this product and make it recyclable. It's not just a matter of making it at the beginning.

Okay. And follow up, are there cost incentives in using recyclable material or if not cost incentives? Are customers willing to pay for more recycled products at the moment?

Yes, cost incentive, I would say no or not enough. There should be a lot more, both in terms of incentive and in terms of also of regulation to be able to then make it this business of recycling in a more -- so more attractive.

Customer are willing to pay? Yes, because the content of recycle and material is reducing the Scope 3 emissions. So every customer that has -- that want to use and to reduce their Scope 3 emission wants these materials inside. And so the one that are asking for are the OEMs so that as we are doing, they have their SBTi target to respect. And do you have 2 more minutes or maybe 3 minutes? I've just got -- Sarah has been able to email a question through. I'll just read that and then we can finish after that.

Absolutely, yes.

Excellent. So the question is the following. What about Pirelli's Scope 3 downstream emissions from the use phase, once on the cars and the end of life recycling/burning? Are these currently counted into the total absolute emissions? And I'll just read the next bit. A big emphasis is made on the upstream aspect. However, this downstream proportion is significant for tire manufacturers. I'm just interested in where that's being counted?

Yes, I give you the technical answer. The GHG protocol for the tire industry is asking the tire industry to include Scope 1 and 2 and Scope 3 upstream or in terms of downstream, just the portion of the end of life tire, but not the in-use phase. The in-use phase is the Scope 3 of the car manufacturer. So it's counted on the emissions of the car manufacturer. For the sake of transparency, we do publish every year and in all our communication, all our emissions related to the use of tires. But due to the fact that it's not the tire that emit, but it is the car that emit with that tires is an issue, let's say for the car manufacturer. Let's say it's an issue. Not to say that we don't care because it's the most important things that we care about. Because as tire manufacturers are our customer, we have to develop tires that help them in reducing their emissions. So the fact that when I presented P Zero E, the A class of rolling resistance means that as low as the rolling resistance of tires has reduced our Scope 3 emissions in-use, and the Scope 3 emissions of our customers. Our tires count more or less 20% of the overall emission of a car and is linked to this rolling resistance topic that is then the quantity of CO2 that you read in the advertisement of each car.

Okay, so it sounds like Scope 3 for you does include the end of life recycling and burning. It just doesn't use the -- whilst in use, it doesn't include the whilst in use.

Correct.

Okay, that's useful. If anyone has any follow-up questions for the team, please feel free to get in contact with us or with the team directly. I'm sure you have Aldo's information. Thank you very much for joining. Thank you Matteo, for running through everything. Really appreciate it.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.