PORR AG ($POS)

Welcome to the earnings call of the PORR AG regarding the full year figures for 2025. I would like to welcome CEO, Karl-Heinz Strauss; and CFO, Klemens Eiter, who will guide you through the figures in a moment, followed by a Q&A session via audio line and chat. And with that, I hand over to Junior Investor Relations Manager, Isabella Steiner.

Good afternoon, and warm welcome from my side as well. My name is Isabella Steiner, and I'm pleased to welcome you to our full year conference call. I will now hand over to our CEO, Karl-Heinz Strauss.

Thank you, Isabella. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining our conference call on PORR AG 2025 full year results. Let us start with a quick overview over the past year on Slide #3. First of all, I'm delighted to report 2025 was truly an outstanding year for the quarter with exceptional results delivered across all major performance indicators. This performance shows that our strategic focus is paying off even in a challenging market environment. In 2025, we saw a strong order intake with an increase of 14.1%. This was mainly driven by continued high-demand infrastructure construction, especially in Poland, Romania and Czech Republic. These countries continue to be supported by major European infrastructure funds, but more on that later. Moving on, I want to talk about our order backlog, which reached a record level of EUR 9.5 billion not least due to major order intakes regarding design and build projects. We already announced at the beginning of March that our earnings came in at the upper end of the 2025 guidance. Once again, PORR's focus was put on building as much as possible by ourselves, thereby reducing purchased services and improving the margins. With that, we delivered as promised. The satisfactory development in our cash flow led to an operating cash flow as well as a free cash flow rise. Also, in terms of capital markets 2025 has brought major achievements. We do not only increase our free cash flow, but improved share price performance also led to a promotion into the Austrian traded index. Finally, we stick to our outlook for 2026 and expect moderate growth in the top line combined with a further improvement on the EBITDA margin. Let us now start off by taking a closer look at the current market situation on Slide #4. After a stagnant market environment in 2025 with Euroconstruct estimating European production output growth of only 0.3%, the experts see strong improvement in the coming years. At present, all segments indicate growth with CEE standing out, in particular, expecting growth rates of 3.2% for '26 and 3.3% for '27. As we have already reported in the past quarters, residential construction starts showing signs of recovery. The ongoing urbanization continues to increase demand for both new housing and renovation of existing buildings. Nonresidential building construction as a whole continues to remain resilient. However, specialized areas such as health care, education and data centers continue to show outstanding growth rates. One recent example is our hospital expansion project in Warsaw, which highlights the sustained demand in these higher-value segments. Civil engineering is and remains the key growth driver showing the strongest momentum into the market. This is largely supported by the strong influx of European funding especially from the next-generation EU program and the recovery and resilience facility. Speaking of funding, we also have to talk about the latest development in Germany. The announced infrastructure package of EUR 500 million shows long-term potential. What remains to be seen is speed with which these funds come into the market. In 2025 due to ongoing budget discussions, we did not see any impact there. Nonetheless, we expect first investments to materialize in the current year at the earliest. Please follow me to the right-hand side of this slide, where we show the current German federal budget plan for 2026. More than half of the infrastructure investments are to be allocated to transport infrastructure, with the majority directed towards rail. While EUR 8.8 billion and EUR 6 billion are remarked for digitalization and health care, respectively, EUR 2.7 billion are set aside for education and research and development. A sum of EUR 2.1 billion is dedicated to energy infrastructure. Around EUR 500 million of the 2026 budget are reserved for subsidies for residential construction. In Austria, investment programs from ASFINAG and Austrian Railway Organization with a combined volume of around EUR 26.7 billion, together with housing subsidies of EUR 5.6 billion, serve as a solid foundation. In addition, the EUR 4 billion recovery in resilience plan continues to support investments in health care, education as well as energy and digital transformation. In terms of market environment, we certainly also have to talk about our input cost structure. For that, please follow me to Slide #5. As many of you already know, we are in the comfortable position of passing on our direct construction-related costs to our customers. Proof of that came during the ongoing Ukraine war where the price increases did not have any impact on our margin growth. This clearly demonstrates the resilience of our contract structure and our risk management. Besides these natural hedges, price escalation clauses are actively in use in our contract and also pre-intended in public orders. Regarding supply security and material bottlenecks in the availability of materials, we, as a major European player, have deployed early procurement with our providers. Another major topic of the moment are energy prices where we take a proactive stance. The detailed calculation system secures not only the prices but also the physical availability of energy sources. These accounts for nearly half of our demand, which is why the requirement is monitored quarterly and hedging actions are taken if necessary. In the case of electricity and natural gas, we count on long-term framework agreements and pricing hedges. Now let us dive into our PORR's figures starting with our order intake on Slide #6. The strong momentum continued through the last quarter of last year, leading to an overall increase of more than 14% compared to the last year. Thereby, order intake stood at slightly more than EUR 7.8 billion, a new all-time high. This underlines not only the strength of demand, but also the increasing share of technically demanding projects with attractive margin potential. The strongest increase was coming from international tunneling and railway construction particular in Poland and Romania. In these markets, we continue to expand our presence and are now among the top 3 players in these countries. Furthermore, this is particularly reassuring in my point of view, residential construction continues to show stronger signs of recovery. For more on that, please follow me in Slide #7, showing our strongest order intake on the segment level. Here, we see a continued strong momentum across the whole group. In Austria, we were awarded the remediation of the contaminated site in Angern an der March alongside the A2 pack tunnel chain. Both projects underline our capabilities in technically demanding infrastructure works. Germany contributed projects such as the community school in Insel Gartenfeld and the hotel and residential project, both in Berlin. Besides that, PORR will be part of major infrastructure works in Munich. In Poland, we secured several key railway infrastructure projects, including the LK108 line between Jaslo and Nowy Zagorz as well as the CPK Tunnel in Lodz. These projects highlight our strong positioning in transport infrastructure and our expertise in complex design and build solutions. Another major order come from the decarbonization megatrend. PORR will be responsible for another incineration plant this time in Wloclawek. In the CEE region, order intake increased significant by more than 1/3 driven by railway reconstruction projects such as the line between Plzen and Chotesov in Czechia and investments in renewable energy, including the Vifor wind farm Phase 2 project in Romania. The infrastructure segment showed a particularly strong increase with order intake more than doubling, supported by projects such as the railway CF Caransebes in Romania and the CPK channel in Poland, which has worked off together with the segment in Poland. The positive development in our order intake is mirrored on our order backlog on Slide #8. Here, as well, we managed to reach a new record level of EUR 9.5 billion, supported by design and build infrastructure projects. While the strongest growth came from Poland, Romania and the Czech Republic, Austria and Germany also served well with increases in building construction. Speaking of order backlog, I also want to briefly discuss our improving book-to-bill ratio on Slide #9. We now stand at a ratio of 1.5, an increase of 9.8% compared to last year's 1.4, thereby indicating an improving market development. In Poland, CEE and the Infrastructure segment, in particular, demand seems to outgrow our revenue, a favorable situation for us as a construction company, which puts us in a comfortable position for the next years. Taking a look at our revenue on Slide #10, we have to admit that the development is lagging. For the year 2025, this is due to several large-scale design and build contracts entering our books, while not yet in generating output. As more and more of these contracts enter the move or the more active construction phase in 2026, we expect that revenue development to catch up with a strong momentum in our order balance. This situation is especially visible in the CEE segment, where we saw a dropback in revenue, which is to be reversed during the current year. In the slightly smaller Infrastructure segment, the opposite effect is visible with major orders in tunneling already won at the beginning of the year and therefore, already in full swing. With our Slide 11, treating EBIT and margins, I probably cannot tell you any big news. However, please let me give you some detailed insights on our earnings development. Now not without pride, I want to emphasize our 24 point -- to increase in EBIT to EUR 196.7 million, a historical achievement. Besides the uplift on the top line, one of the main points here was the improvement in income from companies accounted for using the equity method. This rose by nearly 80% as a result of higher profit transfers from consortiums. In addition to that, the share of purchased construction services in percentage of revenue continued to fall by 0.4 percentage points. This shows the strong focus of PORR of building as much as possible with our own staff. On the bottom line, this leads us to an EBIT margin of 3.1%, slightly ahead of our long-term goal, which we set back in 2021. This reflects the continued effectiveness of our operational measures and our disciplined project selection. Now to dive even deeper into our earnings performance, please follow me to Slide #12, showing our segment performances. True to our history in segment, Austria and Switzerland remains our solid backbone with a sustainable earnings margin of 4.7%. All our other operating segments managed clear improvements with the CEE being the top performer at a margin of 4.0%. The highest increase is certainly visible within the segment Infrastructure International, which was last year burdened by a negative arbitration decision. In 2025, its earnings turned back again and showed an EBIT margin of 0.7%. The segment Germany and CEE, both showed an uplift in their margin of 0.7 percentage points each, while the segment Germany reported a margin of 2.5%, CEE outperformed with 4.0%. Let us now move on to our cash situation on Slide #13. With the uplift in earnings, so did our operating cash flow, which showed an improvement of 11%. This was further supported by lower tax payments. Together with the cash flow from working capital of EUR 50.3 million and the clearly reduced cash flow from investing activities of minus EUR 145.5 million, this resulted in a strong improvement of free cash flow. The decrease in CapEx, in particular, which is attributable primarily to lower investments in PP&E leads to lower cash outflows in the cash flow from investing activities. Besides that, the acquisition of companies accounted for using the equity method lead to significant cash inflows. With the sale of our treasury shares amounting to EUR 44 million, we also improved our cash flow from financing activities. As of the end of the reporting period, this resulted in a net cash position of EUR 93.1 million. Please let me remind you, however, about the one effect coming from hybrid bond transactions, M&A activities and our share programs totaling EUR 9.8 million. Last but not least, let us come to our balance sheet with a detailed analysis of our equity position on Slide #14. With an equity ratio of 21.1%, succeeded in showing a sustainable and strong balance sheet, despite the redemption of hybrid capital worth EUR 46.5 million, leaving the hybrid share in percentage of equity at mere 16.5%. Equity could be improved by 7.8%. In addition to the year's profit, the sale of PORR's treasury share in June 2025 had a particularly positive impact here. On Slide #15, I want to sum up last year's performance and put it in relation to our 2021 figures. Back then, we started our PORR 2025 Future program, which now comes to a most suitable finish. The consolidated profit now stands at EUR 136.7 million, thereby more than doubling compared to 2021. The return on equity came in at 16.3%, also increasing clearly by more than 7 percentage points, a major achievement. Coming to the share performance, I first want to mention the Board's dividend proposal to the AGM of EUR 1.05, again, more than double the sum of 2021. And as for our earnings per share, they saw an impressing uplift of more than 150% to EUR 3 per share, thanks to operating improvements and strong dedication to our own workforce. This was also partly already recognized by our shareholders with a slightly lower increase of 126.7%. Compared to the more than 150% increase in EPS, there is still room on the upper side. This brings me to our share performance on Slide #16. With the pricing uplift, which already started back in autumn 2024, we were in a position to raise more and more interest from big institutional players. Not least due to the sale of its treasury shares in June 2025, PORR as one of the oldest continuously traded shares in the whole of Europe joined the ATX in September 2025. With that, we managed to further increase the share of institutional investors and pave the way for continued share price success. According to our latest data, we now have a share of 32.1% of total share capital held by institutional investors, most of them coming from the U.S. and Continental Europe, including Germany and Austria. With this impressive performance, I want to come to my closing Slide #17, showing the confirmation of our 2026 guidance. What gives us the reliability we need is clear. Energy prices are secured, providing a stable foundation of our projects and supporting the strength of our order books. Based on the strong order backlog and expected market trends, we anticipate moderate growth in output and revenue as well as an increase in the EBIT margin for the current year 2026. The long-term target of an EBIT margin of 3.5% to 4% by 2030 remains unchanged. To sum it up, we have strong order book, improving margin and a well-secured cost base, which gives us confidence in our 2026 guidance and beyond. And with that, I would like to thank you for your attention so far and open the call for your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first person in line with an audio question is Markus Remis.

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

Good afternoon. A few questions from my side, please. Firstly, related to Germany, there was some margin progress in 2025. Maybe you can shed some light on the margin quality of the current backlog. Is it fair to assume that part of the targeted margin increase on the group level should come from the German segment in the current year and staying with that market, are you already seeing any signs from the administration authorities when it comes to kind of streamlining the tender processes and kind of reducing the time to bring projects to the market?

Thank you. Germany margin, I think it's still stable now, given we have a big potential for increasing our margin. What we see quicker than expected that the German authority coming from Deutsche Bahn, but also from the Autobahn GmbH is now speeding up with the tender. So they are using now functional tenders participation methods, EPA models and design and build contracts at the beginning. So they will bring much quicker all the tenders to the market. And for that reason, we are more positive on Germany. And so the year '26 will be a year where a lot of projects will show up coming to the market but really affected will this be on '27, '28.

Okay. Sorry, I did miss the first part on the margin quality of the German backlog. Did you say that you expect '26 more of a stable margin trend in Germany, this 2.5%, is that what you were indicating?

Now we have stabilized our orders there and I think all the old projects are worked out on that. And the incoming very dedicated projects we are looking for is, there will be minimum 2.5%, but I think more than that, even in the German market.

Okay. I would then have a question on the Infra International segment. So there was quite a growth in the output bigger, but still no earnings actually. So I think stripping out last year's one-off effect, it was also about breakeven. Can you shed some light on what to expect there going forward? I could read in the annual report about the drivers for the lackluster earnings performance in the current -- in the last year. But is there a scope for a more meaningful uptick?

Well, in Infrastructure and International segment, most part is coming from tunneling. And we started off big projects there, and they will last for some years. And actually, in the early stages, we're a little bit conservative about margins and earnings. So that's due to the nature of business and the stage of development of the projects there. Maybe giving one addition to your question before, I think uplift of the margin in Germany was also due to the positive projects we do have in industrial construction buildings there. They contributed very well. And what we see is that we increased our forces in that regard. We're also awaiting contracts still here in industrial construction data centers. So I think this will continuously lead to a positive development in Germany, too.

One more follow-up on this Infra International segment, please, because when I look at the order intake, it was EUR 480 million for the year, but that was pretty much the figure you also reported for the 9 months, so it looks as if it was no incremental order intake in the fourth quarter.

Well, actually, we are pretty full there. As you see, our bill-to-book ratio is more than 2 in that segment. And actually, out of that EUR 480 million, it's 2 big tunnels that are the tunnel part of infrastructure projects in Poland and Romania. And so actually, I think really fully loaded in the segment, and there was not -- we were not aiming to have another additional order intake in the last quarter there. So not by occasion, but yes, so it was not the target to increase furthermore.

And last question before I get back into the line. Can you indicate the level of factoring by year-end '25, please?

Well, actually, for factoring, it's always about the same. We've got a limit of up to EUR 100 million. But let me say that regarded our factoring to sales, so the cash in is a true cash effect, and it's stable over the years. So we didn't change anything here to our policy of contracts.

Okay. So EUR 100 million roughly?

Roughly.

And we will go on to the next question from Stefan Scharff.

Good afternoon, gentlemen, and congrats from my side for the good results in the last year. My first question is about in the light of the recent U.S.-Israel-Middle East war, the European 10-year swap rates were up in the last, let's say, 3 weeks, about 40 or 45 basis points. And that makes financing difficult perhaps for residential buyers? And, yes, just generally dampened the appetite for new private development projects. What's your view here?

I think that there is still no progress if we go on residences on that one. In single and double houses, there is nearly no market anymore because maybe the properties are too expensive, interest rates are too high. So there is no really market. But this does not affect PORR. What we see now is, especially in Austria that [indiscernible] companies are now realizing their projects, which should have been realized in '22, '23. Now they are coming on the market. There are quite a lot of projects now there, and we do a lot of construction with them. We see also in Germany that the high pricing market is coming up again. The middle-sized pricing is, let's say, we have to wait. The people doesn't like to get more financing on that. But affordable housing is in all markets, a big need in that one. So we see there a lot of activities and especially what PORR did with PORR Living, we came up with a segment construction basis on PORR Living, which gives us a very nice housing project, which is more than 7 floors up to that with prices below EUR 2,000 per square meter. So we will see that in that one. But affordable housing especially for rent and buying is very much needed in all our markets. So as you know, residential construction is not a big stake in our portfolio, but we see it slightly positive despite with these interest rates and the conflict now in the Middle East.

Okay. I see, yes, I also think affordable housing is a big point for the future. My second question is about your equity ratio. You did increase the equity ratio remarkably in the last years. And you also improve the quality, bringing down the hybrid share. Do you also have a road map for your equity ratio, let's say, for the next 3 or 4 years?

Well, Stefan, thank you. We're working on that, as you're saying, reducing our hybrid share, but increasing our equity and ratio. We have actually a stable payout ratio policy. And actually, it's developing along with our operating results and our profit combined with the payout ratio continuously increasing the equity. Actually, last year also positively impacted by the sale of our treasury shares. But in general, as our payout ratio is between 30% and 50%, equity will grow in the future. And we are in the corridor that we aim to 20% to 25%, probably going up and not down in the ratio in the next years.

Okay. If you have a look at the order intake, it was a steep hike of 20% for Germany and Poland was just flattish, more or less. So you already answered a little bit that we're still positive for Germany for the next 1 or 2 years to come, many public projects. So we should see again a very good order intake number. And how is the situation in Poland?

The situation in Poland is very positive. We have a lot of order intake there last year. Even this year is coming up. So we have more than 2 years order backlog in Poland. And what we can see now is there will come a lot of projects on the market. But there are some regions in Poland where they come up. There are some months, there is no project coming up. But now the next 2 months, they will come up more than 20 to 30 projects at the same time. And this is just because railway infrastructure, they have a budget more than EUR 40 billion with coalition fund and resilience and recovery fund, even for streets more than [ EUR 11.1 billion ]. So even hospitals have more than EUR 2 billion to EUR 3 billion. Now we have more than EUR 4 billion under construction. So we are very positive from Poland in that situation. But as we mentioned earlier, we look very clear for the project, what we can do, where we can profit most out of the ones, and this one, we engage.

And next in line is Mr. Wolf.

Can you hear me?

Yes, we can.

Congratulations on the last year. I have the following questions. So what's the total share of cost that is not protected from higher prices? Would it be possible for you to quantify the share? And the second question is where you see the biggest bottlenecks over the next 1 to 2 years? Is it mainly personnel? And how do you see personnel expenses developing? And the third and last question is related to data centers, especially the investments of the hyperscalers, which have increased quite massively. Do you see spillover effects to Europe/Germany?

Well, for our cost, in general, we have a strategy first on our energy cost doing price hedges on our energy necessary for oil, for gas, for electricity. So we are covered not fully, but to a high degree for the next 2 years. If you look at the price development, you see that futures are in a peak for the next year, especially in '27. And we're pretty well covered for that in gas already up to 2030. For us, it's important to have the right strategy for our main materials as steel, cement, concrete. Therefore, we are fixing our supply. At the moment, we enter into a contract with our customer. So we have fixed for the short-term requirements. And for the longer term, we are fixed with our price adjustment clauses towards our clients, meaning material price increases are fixed with an index, and the index increase can be forwarded to the customer. So we're pretty well safeguarded. And as you see over the last year that worked out pretty well, I have to say, not only in our company, but I think in general, the professional construction industry is able to manage that situation.

Coming to your data center question, I mean we have concentrated all our activities, especially in engineering and project management in a data center GmbH, where we have put in all our special experts which has now constructed more than 7 data center projects from small to very, very big, even a very big one is now under construction in Frankfurt. We see the market, there is a lot of demand, and there are a lot of questions and there are very lot of projects outside there. We don't think that every project can be realized. It's always depending how much NAV -- energy -- with how much energy they can get even in the markets there. So there is a much more question after project than they really can deliver, for sure, energy in the amount they need. But I think we are quite well, especially with our team. They are well known in the market. We have all the references. And I think we are now very good into the market in Poland, in Germany, in Austria and now even in Czech Republic and Romania, I think where the next big data centers will come. The trend is totally to large hyperscalers, that's for sure. So even the question of enough energy is one of the most critical questions there. If this can be secured, so the project will be done immediately. And there are not only now U.S. companies, even the big tech companies, but also the private equity and tech-related companies are there, even a lot of European funds private equity and companies like Schwarz Group are on the market now here and looking for quite places and reliable partners. And PORR with a track record of now 8 data centers in time, in quality and in budget has a very good reputation for the market.

Thank you very much. I hope all your questions are answered with that, Mr. Wolf, and we are moving on to Patrick Speck.

Also from my side, congrats on your very strong performance in 2025. My first question is on, yes, let's say, at the start of the year. I mean, you gave an overall positive outlook, but should we maybe expect a weaker start into the year due to the poor weather conditions? I mean there were some reports, not your projects, but some reports where they were impacted. Have you anything that might have impacte projects as well, would be maybe?

Well, Patrick, I understood that you're questioning the start into the year. Yes, well, February was a strong winter month. And we see that the year is starting a little bit slow, let me say it like that. Nevertheless, looking weather for the rest of the year, what we see is that we are on track. So winter months are always a bit weaker in our business as we are operating in European countries. And in general, affected by the weather conditions. Yes, February was a little bit stronger, probably for you in Germany and Hamburg so even more. But altogether, we are confident about positive development on the outdoor side for the year.

Okay. Secondly, your free cash flow was very strong and a couple of reasons is that...

Patrick. Sorry, we can't hear you quite well because of other sound and background.

Yes. Sorry for that. There is another earnings call going. I'll try my best.

Maybe place your questions in the chat box if...

Okay. I will go back in the queue.

I will read them out for you. I will go over to Philipp Kaiser.

Congrats on the results. I have a couple of questions starting as a follow-up on the Infra segment. Could you elaborate a bit more on the EBIT turnaround you achieved in 2025? Is that mainly driven by the absence of legacy business from the Middle East? Or is it kind of profitable new work you experienced in the last year?

Well, as we outlined in our report, last year, we've been affected by a negative arbitration decision. This was why the segment result was negative in '24. In '25, fortunately no such negative effect, as I outlined before. We are in the early stage of the big projects, therefore, not the big margin years so far. We still have some overhead negative effect here as we are closing out our business in Middle East. But this is something that is going down. So we expect the positive development.

The next one would be on your PORR Living segment. I mean that's notably low price point, you mentioned in the press release. Could you elaborate more on the economics. So what EBIT margin do you target on these products versus your traditional residential business? And how fast you could scale up this segment?

First of all, PORR Living is a segmental construction, modular construction as we do it. It's very favorable. You can do more than 10 different style of apartments in that one, starting from 30 square meter up to 100 square meter, 110 square meter, with costs of lower than EUR 2,000 per square meter. I think to the normal one, we don't talk about margins in that one, but it's more safe for us. And I think nearly normally you can double the margin with that one because it's kind of a very strict and lean construction constructed project like that. We just started 2 projects now in Austria. These are the main big projects where we really show and even also learned by ourselves how to do it on really time now. It looks very good, it's on the same. And we are very quick in building up a lot of different sites. We are prepared to do it in Austria and in Germany, too. I think we can go up with both countries very quick coming up because the main thing is constructed and developed by ourselves, and we can do it with our local people who are very much experienced in general building here. This is our system, so we can even go to other markets where we have our construction capacity there. So we can use our teams, our local presence all over Austria and Germany for rising up the market for us.

Very clear. And the last one is on Germany. I think last week, there was an Ifo report out citing that the German government misused 95% of the new debt for the infrastructure program from its intended propose. What's your thoughts on that? Are there any risks evaluating for your 2030 guidance? As far as I remember, you didn't put much of this program into your midterm forecast.

When the discussions started about this special program in Germany, we were very well concerned, but we will see. And we said, okay, let's see how the market is coming up, especially how quick they can bring all the projects into construction like that. I think they performed more and came -- they speed up with this one using international tender methods to get it on the market. I do not believe this Ifo report about debt, that nearly 90% or 95% of this money that -- of course, the government is always taking money, which is there, which is dedicated and not risking any other court decision, which is against them. But I think that there will be a lot of money. I think more than half of the money will be prepared for the market. You can see this now what is under design and what is prepared for that one. But Germany is an important market for us, yes. But in our midterm planning up to 2030, all our markets play a major role in that. So we are not depending on 1 or 2 markets, like that. If Germany is coming bigger, we can force some people to Germany. If this is coming up, which is in line with our midterm planning, that's very fine for us, so we can do everything what's there on the market. And we are increasing our market share there, especially now in railway construction. We speed up with special foundation and even with repair and installation of new one and construction of new one, we are very much prepared. So we can very quickly switch between Poland, Germany, Austria, Czech and Romania. And I think this gives us a very strong position in all of these markets. We do not expect that one of these markets will fall out from the line. So I think we will take all the chances, which will bring us to market in the next 2 to 3 years.

And we will jump over to the questions from Mr. Speck in the Q&A. CapEx were significantly lower than in the previous year. Is this the new normal? Or what should we expect going forward?

Well, actually, it's been reduced a little bit unusual, our investment CapEx, as it has also been a positive influenced by cash inflow from M&A we did here. So this was a one-off effect. But in general, we expect that 4% of our output is more than sufficient for going forward with our investments in CapEx.

And you scaled back your operating activities in Qatar. How much is still outstanding in receivables from Qatar?

Well, that's a low double-digit million euro amount. We're continuously working on that. And we made good progress last year. We're working on that even in the situation now. So the offices are open. We're working and we're in plan with our targeted progress.

We will move over for our last hand up for today. And Mr. Remis, you have some follow-ups.

Yes, please. Firstly, a question related to the other operating income where you booked a gain on bargain purchase of EUR 22 million. Can you detail that out? It seems that it's related to an acquisition? Is it some sort of badwill recognition? And can you also state in which quarter this was booked?

Yes, you are right. That's some, let's call it, lucky buy. Actually, we've been acquiring the Austrian Health care business of VAMED from Fresenius. Actually, it was their intention to do that rather quick. And in case of closing that till the end of the year, we got something like a premium for the acquisition. And what you see here is merely -- the negative goodwill is merely showing this premium that we received on that. We booked that in the fourth quarter, nevertheless altogether, we also have some -- if you treat that or see that maybe at some extraordinary position, there are also extraordinary positions in other way that we have expenses or negative amounts in same region. So altogether, I don't see an impact in general on our ordinary results.

Okay. So it's a noncash item, right? You say, a negative goodwill?

Yes, but it was -- it has been paid in cash by, let me say, contribution to the share price.

Okay.

You also see...

Then staying with maybe the one-off -- sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Please carry on.

No. Fine. Sorry.

Okay. Staying with maybe one-off items. It seems that in the holdings segment, there was also a negative impact related to the wind down of project in Switzerland. Can you shed some light on this and also maybe give an indication about the kind of normalized kind of EBIT for the holding part?

Well, you're right. That's what I tried to point it out before. And I think in total, they're merely weighing out. You see our operating segments are not touched by that. You see that the holding result is negative, although this negative goodwill is included in that. The result there is including some holding expenses and a little bit more negative one-offs, so that's in total, the picture.

Okay. So the EUR 22 million positive was in holding and Switzerland, equal out this EUR 20 million roughly with a negative effect you say?

Yes, a little bit more than equals out. And that's why, in general, you see here all over, you see a negative amount in the holdings segment, too, consisting of the holding operating costs and some kind of one-off together.

Okay. And what's your strategy on Switzerland? Because I mean, in relative terms, it's importance has come down. I think you're now just operating in civil engineering. Is it getting more towards the kind of project market than a home market? And maybe if you can also indicate where the kind of profitability you achieve in that market?

You're absolutely right. We are concentrating now in Switzerland on civil engineering. These are our civil engineering departments in Altdorf and the surrounding in these cantons around. We are also doing paneling and infrastructure on the big size and hydropower stations like that. We see, in Switzerland in 2025, there was really no big project showing up, but there a lot of big projects will show up by the second half of 2026 until next spring. So we expect to get 1 or 2 of -- 1 of the big infrastructure projects, whether this is a big canton or a hydro power station or something like that with tunneling included in that. So we go -- on this one, we will not go any more on general building like that because we think the market is too much overcrowded there, and there is too less projects on the market. So it's a big fight for margins and also people there. So we decided not to go and concentrate on our more attractive markets.

Understood. And the last question, it seems that for Q1, we will only release a trading statement. Is that the case? And will that also be then the case for Q3 or just to Q1?

Well, I think that the first quarter in construction industry here in Europe is not giving much information and direction for the total year. So we decided along or in line with other big peers as STRABAG, for example, to report a trading statement, given the main figures there for development. This is aimed to do only for the first quarter, not for the 3 quarters as there is much more wait on that information for the first 9 quarters, and we stick with the full report for that period.

Thank you very much, Mr. Remis. And with that, we have come to the end of today's earnings call. Thank you very much for your interest in PORR AG. A big thank you also to you, Mr. Strauss and Mr. Eiter for your presentation and your time. Should you have any further questions a little later today, ladies and gentlemen, please feel free to contact Investor Relations, Isabella Steiner. I wish you all a successful day and handing over to you, Mr. Strauss, once again, for your closing remarks.

Yes. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for all of you attending our conference call for our full year results in 2025, and we will see us by over here in September next occasion about it. Thank you very much, and stay and healthy. Thank you.