PT Avia Avian Tbk (AVIA.JK) Q3 FY2025 Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for taking the time to participate in today's call. We appreciate your continued interest in Avia, and welcome you to our quarter 3 2025 earnings call. For your information, we uploaded the presentation materials to our website yesterday. Please note that all comparisons are to the same period of 2024, unless otherwise stated. The plan for today is to start with a quick presentation followed by a 1-hour Q&A session. [Operator Instructions] For those who cannot join us now, the webcast of this event will be uploaded to our website no later than tomorrow. Thank you once again for being here today. Allow me to start by introducing myself. My name is Andreas Timotti Hadikrisno. I'm the Head of Investor Relations at Avia and will be moderating this earnings call today. We are joined today by 3 other presenters, starting with Mr. Ruslan Tanoko, the Vice President and Director of our company; followed by Mr. Robert Tanoko, the Operations and Development Director; and finally, Mr. Kurnia Hadi, the Finance Director. Avian Brands registered a total revenue of USD 125 million. The company's strong financial position is underscored by a consolidated gross margin of 42.6%, an EBITDA margin of 24.4% and a net profit margin of 19.9%. Our market footprint covers all 38 provinces and 99 cities in Indonesia. With over 9,000 dedicated employees and 182 distribution centers, we maintain our commitment to providing industry-leading service to over 58,000 building material stores across the country. This page summarizes the company's quarter 3, 2025 performance compared to the same period last year. Amidst a difficult demand environment, we continue to execute our strategies and achieved a double-digit growth during the quarter. We are proactively making strategic investments, not only to accelerate market share gains but also to secure our position as the market leader in the chronic paint market. This approach is complemented by our continued focus on cost discipline to ensure we maintain healthy profitability over the long term. In response to rising production costs, Avian Brands implemented a price increase of around 1% to 2% on August 1. primarily applies to the wall, wood, and metal, and waterproofing segments. This marks the second price adjustment in 2025, following an earlier increase on February 1. Avian Brands launched 3 new products during the quarter in the wood and metal, waterproofing, and instant cement segments. Product innovation is a key pillar for building a sustainable business in the long term. That is why we continue to invest in the research, development, and innovation department, which serves as a foundation for our future growth. We continue to elevate our brands through value-added solutions and high-quality services that set us apart from the rest of the competitors. During the third quarter, we strengthened our presence by adding 4 wholly owned DCs. Our nationwide distribution network is more than just a logistical backbone. It is our strategic moat. Through this facility, we strive to deliver service excellence that remains unmatched in the industry. This commitment is evident in the 91% fulfillment rate of our 1-day delivery service. At the same time, we continue to streamline our internal operations to bring down costs and ensure optimized performance across all segments. Avian Brands continued its growth trajectory in quarter 3 despite softer economic conditions. During the quarter, the company reported a consolidated revenue of IDR 2 trillion, growing by 14.5%. For the 9 months, consolidated sales increased by 9.7%, reaching IDR 5.9 trillion. Throughout the 9 months, we recorded transactions from more than 58,000 retail outlets, representing an increase of over 2,200 retail outlets. I will now pass to Hadi to continue the presentation.

Thank you, Andreas, and good afternoon, everyone. This page presents the company's sales breakdown by segment. On the left chart, you will see that the Architecture Solutions segment contributes 78% to the total sales. The wall, wood and metal, and waterproofing continue to be the largest contributors within this segment. All 3 segments achieved positive growth during the quarter and the 9-month period. Moving on to the sales breakdown by customers. Traditional retail outlets account for 92% of sales. Additionally, our wholly owned distribution centers remain the primary driver of revenue with a 90% contribution. In Q3, Avian brands generated a consolidated gross profit of IDR 870 billion, marking a 12.2% growth with a gross margin of 42.6%. For the 9 months, consolidated gross profit reached IDR 2.5 trillion with a 42.9% gross margin. During Q3, input costs remained relatively stable. The overall pressure from raw material prices, previously driven by the depreciation of the U.S. dollar exchange rate, has been mitigated and supported by the company's price adjustment. In addition, promotional expenses have also been continuously optimized. During the quarter, Avian Brands reported a consolidated EBITDA of IDR 500 billion, growing by 16.9% with an EBITDA margin of 24.4%. Over the 9 months, consolidated EBITDA was IDR 1.5 trillion, delivering an EBITDA margin of 25.2%. On the other hand, the company registered a net profit of IDR 407 billion in Q3, increasing by 15.5%. The net profit margin for the quarter was 19.9%. For the 9 months, the reported net profit was IDR 1.18 trillion with a net profit margin of 20%. The Architecture Solutions segment continued its growth in Q3. Sales were reported at IDR 1.5 trillion, growing by 14.8%. The increase was supported by 8.2% volume growth during the quarter. Over the 9 months, sales were up by 8.6%, while volume recorded an 8% growth.  The whole segment continues its strong double-digit growth in Q3. Avian Brands strengthened its position and accelerated market share gains in this segment. On this slide, you can see that we continue to increase the number of transacting customers for the Architectural Solutions segment. Over the 9-month period, the number of customers for this segment reached 54,000, representing an increase of over 2,500 customers.  The image on the right is from the company's customer gathering event in September 2025. We see customer engagement as a continuous process, and our customer catering events are an integral part of this strategy. Through this segment event, we strengthened our relationship and expressed our appreciation for their continued trust in Avian Brands.  The trading segment extended its growth momentum in Q3. Total sales for this segment were up by 13.7% reported at IDR 491 billion. This achievement brought the 9-month sales to IDR 1.3 trillion, marking a 13.7%.  Looking at the number of customers, the trading goods segment recorded over 49,000 transacting customers in the 9 months, representing 85% of the total consolidated customer. This segment remains a strategic complement to our business, supported by our extensive distribution network and deep market penetration. This page highlights the performance of gross profit by segment.  In Q3, the Architectural Solutions segment delivered a gross profit of IDR 780 billion, achieving a gross margin of 50.2%. Over the 9 months, gross profit reached IDR 2.3 trillion, reflecting a margin of 50%. Meanwhile, the trading goods segment recorded a Q3 gross profit of IDR 90 billion with a margin of 18.4%.  Cumulatively, gross profit for the 9 months stood at IDR 238 billion with a gross margin of 18.1%. The decrease in gross margin in the trading goods segment was primarily due to the high comparison base from last year, when the company received a one-time bonus from the principal. I will now pass to Robert to continue the presentation. 

Thank you, Hadi. This page outlines the company's cost structures for the 9 months of 2025, highlighting disciplined cost management across key components. In Q3, raw material prices were generally stable. On the other hand, below the line, marketing expenses declined to around 7% of total sales. The company continues its proportional activities, while at the same time, optimizing its spending to ensure maximum returns.  In the first 9 months, trade working capital slightly increased to around 31% of total sales, mainly due to a higher finished goods inventory. In line with our growth priorities, CapEx represented 3.2% of sales, while expansion projects added another 3.5%, bringing total investment to IDR 394 billion.  Avian Brand is actively scaling up the installation of the ting machines at retail outlets, reinforcing our commitment to long-term and sustainable growth. We anticipate routine CapEx for the full year 2025 to trend modestly above the historical average as these initiatives continue to expand. Consequently, higher working capital and increased investments resulted in lower free cash flow during the 9 months, representing approximately 10% of sales.  If we turn our attention to the figure on the far right, you will see that our on-time collection of accounts receivable remains around 90% despite challenging conditions in the market. As we consistently emphasize, this is a result of the strong, long-standing relationships we have built with our customers. The company continues to dedicate unwavering efforts to maintaining these relationships for long-term business sustainability.  This page presents updates on our second share buyback program. We launched this initiative following the successful completion of our previous buyback, where the company repurchased the full 1.4 billion shares authorized. As of yesterday, we have reached around 65% of the maximum shares authorized, utilizing around 41% of the total budget.  In September, Avian Brands launched a strategic collaboration with ASCO, one of the largest retail chains in Indonesia, with over 250 stores nationwide. This is a new initiative designed to penetrate the home painting market by offering complete painting solutions directly to consumers. We begin by establishing 2 in-store bots in Jakarta, where consumers can get professional consultations, which surface and explore all the product and service options we offer.  We are leveraging ASCO's strong market presence to drive traffic, while Avian Brands gives them a unique offering that is not available in other modern retail channels. At this stage, our primary focus is on driving sales traction through on-site engagement and targeted marketing efforts. At the same time, we are closely monitoring the performance to align our future expansion strategy.  As we enter the last quarter of the year, it is clear that we continue to be in a softer demand environment with the potential for further weakening. Despite these persistent headwinds, we remain on track with our full-year 2025 sales guidance. We never stand still, and our team continues to execute with discipline. Above all, we maintain a strong focus on our consumers while navigating the business through this dynamic environment.  Avian Brands is proud to announce that the company has received the Katadata ESG Awards 2025 as the governance winner. This achievement marks the third consecutive year that Avian Brands has been recognized by Katadata for its commitment to ESG values. Moving forward, we remain committed to advancing these efforts as part of our long-term sustainability goals. That concludes our Q3 2025 presentation. Thank you very much for joining today's earnings call. I will now pass to Andreas to moderate the Q&A session. 

Thank you, Robert. We can now proceed with the Q&A session, which will last for 1 hour. So, the first question is coming from Robin Santo. Congrats on the quarter 3 results. Four questions. Number one, there was the last bike in lieu of the price hike. How much of the 8% volume growth would be attributable to this last bike?  Number two, the industry is showing signs of improvement. Volume was strong amid a price hike. Any improvement in waterproofing amid rainy weather? Number three, any plans to increase ATL or BTL spend in the fourth quarter of 2025 and the full year 2026? And number four, potential to export pain was highlighted in the news yesterday. Any plans to partake in this? 

Allow me to answer the question. So, Robin, the first question that you had, unfortunately, I actually cannot remember the exact number. However, during the last bite of the month of July, I could say that it was very successful.  If I'm not mistaken, the revenue for that month grew by around 30% to 40%, even though the magnitude of the price hike was only around 1% to 2%. So, it was a good sign for us to see that the interest from our customers was still very high at that period of time, even though we don't think that the market will recover, which continues to your second question, the industry is showing signs of improvement. I don't think that's the case at all, Robin.  So, I think from the 2 publicly listed companies that posted their results a couple of days ago, one was [indiscernible] Dipanjan and the second was [indiscernible] Santosa. You can see that in the building materials segment of their corresponding companies, one grew by 1%, and one basically had a minus 1%.  So, I don't think the market is actually recovering yet. We're still waiting for ASCO to post its results. But I think if you look at their SSSG numbers, it doesn't look like it's that their numbers will be good. So, I think we can safely conclude that our good performance in Q3 was definitely leading us to some market share gains.  Third question with regard to the increase in ATL/BTL spend. We will continue to be diligent with our way of spending our money. Basically, we look for the opportunity if it's possible for us to spend the money. But ultimately, we don't want to just spend money randomly for the sake of spending money.  We always need to be careful about where we spend the money and which product we're spending the money and who the competitor is that we're trying to target. And I think what we've accomplished in Q3 demonstrated that, look, we can actually still gain revenue even though we are not spending money like we used to. So, I think cost cost-disciplined approach is something that we pay a lot of attention to.  Last question with regards to the news on the export. At this point in time, Dextone products are the ones being exported. In fact, it already has a presence in maybe about 3 or 4 countries. So, we're trying to see whether we can leverage the existing connections through Dextone to see if a few or some of our products are possible to basically be tagged along. But other than these 4 countries that Dextone already has connections with, it's still quite early for us to decide whether we are doing any kind of export. Thank you, Robin. 

Thank you, Robin. Next question coming from [indiscernible]. Congrats on Avia's performance achievement in the first 9 months of 2025. Question number one, would you mention again until the first 9 months, how many Avia's customers? What type of Avia's customers or any target until the end of the full year 2025 to the full year 2026, how many additional customers? And question number two, how about Avia's production capacity? Will increase until the end of the full year 2025 compared to last year. 

Yes. So, I'll answer the first one and then the second one. I'll ask Robert will answer that one. So, one thing that you could note from here, Reza, is that if you look at the graph on the right-hand side, the 9-month number of customers, you can see that there was a jump of more than 2,300 customers who conduct transactions with us. So, if you go back historically in the past few years, this is actually relatively high because historically, it would be hovering around 800 to maybe 1,0001, 1,002.  So obviously, having an extra 1,000-plus customers who conduct a transaction is a good sign. And this is a parameter that we would like to continue to monitor very closely. So, if there are customers who don't do any kind of transactions, we're obviously going to pay them a visit and find out why they're not doing any kind of transactions, given the fact that our product portfolio is quite wide.  So, there's always going to be something that they can buy from us. So that's how we look at it. And I think we should be able to reach maybe about 60,000 by the end of the year, or close to it very much. Yes, but at the end of the day, wherever we open our new DCs, we always try to add more and more customers.  And since we added 4 more wholly owned DCs in the third quarter, safe to say that within these DCs, there's going to be a few hundred more customers that we'll be adding. Those kinds of customers maybe did not do transactions from us. Maybe they were located in a bit of a remote area, and everything else, but now we can cover them. That's basically it. Second question, Robert, please? 

Okay. Yes. Thanks. So, about the Avian production capacity, right, at the moment, we are still running quite well. I would say that the utilization is still about 80%. And we are still running at some of the paint production at 2 shifts, and some is under at 3 shifts.  So, in the meantime, we are still able to fulfill all the demands from the market. And we are also aligning with the new plant, which will be commissioned by mid-2026, the third plant. So, it will also help our new expansion and new fulfillment of the order for the next year. Thank you. 

We go to the next question coming from Lydia Tan. This quarter 3, you did a great job. Which categories are driving most of the growth? Is it from the wall paint or waterproofing categories? And what are the lowest performance categories? 

Thank you for the question, Lydia. So, I think we mentioned before that all the 3 main segments that we have driving our revenue came from the wall segment, wood and metal, and waterproofing. The wall segment and waterproofing have been growing very well.  In fact, we've had a few consecutive quarters of double-digit growth within the wall segment. Again, this is where we believe that we continue to gain market share within the wall segment. And this is something that we believe will continue for many more quarters to come. We've been planning what to do with this segment, and a lot of actions are going to be done. I mean, unfortunately, none of which I can share here.  But the wall segment continues to be a very important segment for us because ultimately, within the decorative paint segment, wall is the largest. Waterproofing is another segment that has also been growing very well for us. In fact, in the third quarter alone, we grew by double digits.  I think if you look back at our presentation materials from a few last years or even the year before, you can tell that the product portfolio within the waterproofing is not as wide as they are now. Well, this is because we identify segments within the waterproofing that we can also play a role in.  So safe to say that also including in the waterproofing, more and more products will be developed, will be launched, and we're trying to basically fulfill all kinds of waterproofing needs within the Indonesian customers. One segment that has been growing the lowest out of the 3 is the wood and metal. I explained previously, maybe a long time ago, that wood and metal are a segment that cannot grow as fast as these 2 other segments because there are too many product replacements that now exist, which basically makes the market for wood and metal continue to be shrinking or at least not growing over time. What I mean by that is we look historically, more than a decade ago, most of the doors, most of the window frames, they would all be made out of wood. But now there are so many product replacements replacing those wood. You can use aluminum, you can use stainless steel, you can use glass, and many others, or even UPVC for that matter. So wood and metal are a segment that has not been growing. But at the same time, when we look at the product portfolio within this segment, we've also identified that there are products that we can still launch. So you will notice us adding a few more product portfolios within this wood and metal segment in our attempt to also grow this segment a bit faster.

Thanks, Lydia. Next question coming from Kevin Halim. Thanks for the presentation. Question number one, can we see margin improvement in the fourth quarter of 2025 or the full year 2026, considering the current low oil prices? Question number two, can you share the latest update on the potential M&A activity in the paint industry? Any potential candidate?

Thanks for your question, Kevin. So the first one with regards to margin improvement, I think our margin within the Architectural Solutions is quite stable. What led to the consolidated decrease is because of the contribution from the trading goods. If historically, contributions from trading goods were hovering around 20%, they're now at 22%. It just means that my team and I have to do a better job in selling more paints so that the trading goods segment doesn't grow, continue to grow, and its contribution continues to exceed 20%. So our margin within the Architectural Solutions is quite stable. But because of the contribution from the trading goods, the overall gross margin from the company is being compressed slightly because of that. Now, the low oil prices obviously will help us on the Architectural Solutions segment, but it remains to be seen because there is generally a lag factor. Just because oil is low today, it does not mean that our raw materials will come down immediately, and we also have a buffer of raw materials sitting in our factory. But we'll continue to be disciplined with our spending. This is the only way that we can basically bring up our consolidated margin by being disciplined on the spending and the promotions, and not just spend money if it's not necessary. Second question about the latest update on the potential M&A. I think since we became a publicly listed company, there was always this kind of requirement that we should do something on the M&A side because we raised all this money. So to be honest, we've never stopped looking for opportunities. And at this point in time, there are companies that we're looking at, but we do not pursue acquisitions that fall outside our strategic fit. So other than Dextone, which is still very aligned with our business, other companies that fall out of our category, then we just don't want to pursue. But we are in discussions with a few companies that we believe will be a very good fit for our existing business and ecosystem. Again, it's too early to share any of these names, Kevin. Thank you.

Thank you, Kevin. Next question coming from Jamie. Going into 2026, how should we think about the overall gross margin trajectory as wallping product category continues to gain momentum within the Architectural Solutions segment and also versus the lower-margin trading goods segment?

Thanks for the question, Jamie. I think this is tied to the previous question that I also replied to. So I think we just have to do a better job in selling more paint so that the contribution from the trading goods does not exceed 20% because that's the only way for us to basically go back to our consolidated margin because at this point in time, the more trading goods that we sell, obviously, then the percentage of the consolidated margin will drop. But I think we should also pay attention to the net margin, rather than the percentage of gross margin, because if what we can sell basically gives us higher net profit margin. And then in rupiah, I mean, then that's something that we need to consider. But ultimately, we don't just continue to add random trading goods items within our product portfolio. We focus on the building material shops, the 60,000 or so customers, whatever they sell, if we feel that we can get a few more dollars out of them, that's something that we will do because, at the end of the day, the contribution from the trading goods is allowing us to actually establish an even better relationship with our customers. I think if we go back to the account receivable on time, you can see that despite all the challenges that we're facing, we're still doing almost 90% of on-time collections. This is something that I can assure you not many of our competitors can accomplish. And we can only do this because of the great relationships that we have with our existing customers. And that also came from them buying more and more products from us, including the trading goods outside of the architectural Solutions.

Thanks, Jamie. Next question from Yuan Long. As Ruslan mentioned, noticed that this quarter, we added the highest number of new customers in Architectural Solutions segment on year-on-year basis, plus adding 2,700 new customers, if I'm correct. Anything in particular did we do this quarter? Or can we take it as our various marketing efforts bearing fruits?

Thank you for the question, Yuan. It is a combination of efforts, Yong. Obviously, the marketing effort is also bearing fruit. But another aspect is that we are just implementing a much tighter control internally. So when customers really have not been making any kind of purchases from us, then we basically pay them a visit. We give them a call to find out was there anything that made them disappointed that they don't want to buy from us. And ultimately, we are trying to show them that, look, I understand that if some of your inventories are quite high, that's okay. But look at all these other products that we have that you haven't bought before. Because we're using our sales force automation with the tablets. So when our salespeople go and visit a shop, they can see what are some of the products are that this particular shop has not bought from us, and when we're trying to offer these products, obviously, many resonated quite well with our customers and that brought us say, Hey!, Yes!, Okay!, I'll buy these products. So I think that's been working very well for us. And this is something that we believe will continue to happen in the future, Yuan Long, we'll continue to add more customers to do transactions. So ultimately, we're trying to reach the maximum number of transactions from all the customers as often as possible. That's what we're trying to accomplish.

Next question from [indiscernible]. Question number one, Avian recorded double-digit growth in quarter 3. To what extent was this supported by Dextone's performance? How does Dextone sales contribute to Avia's overall revenue? Number two, under which business category are Dextone sales classified, architectural solutions or trading goods?

Thank you for your very good question, Dafa. So the contribution from Dextone, let me take a step back. So I need to remind you that Dexton basically had a lot of trouble at the beginning after the acquisition because the way the price structure was done and everything else was quite messy. So it took us a long time to finally find a stable ground on which we can start pushing the Dextone products. But within Q3 alone, the contribution from Dextone is still maybe in the mid-single digit and actually in the low single digit. So it still has not contributed in a meaningful way like we would like them to.  But I think we feel confident that Dextone will start showing its true potential next year. So, just in the next couple of weeks, we're launching a few more products, which our wholly owned DCs will carry within Dextone. So we have Dextone as the premium category. And then we have a second layer of product from Dextone to fulfill the mass market. So this is something that we know will also contribute towards the overall Dextone revenue. But for now, the contribution is still in the low single digits.  In terms of the business category, so you can see here on this picture, Dafa, the third from the bottom, you can see adhesives and sealants. You can see that some of their products are there. From the left-hand side, you can see instant glue, epoxy steel, tube, epoxy, and so on and so on, and a few sealants as well.  So why is Dextone not being bundled up under trading goods? At this point in time, we believe that Dextone products belong in the Architectural Solutions category because it's a better fit. So, because of that consideration, we're basically putting it there. Obviously, we know that the margins from Dextone at this point in time are still quite different than the remaining of the Architectural Solutions. But that's something that we know we will be able to improve going forward.  And I think this is a much better approach for the long term because if we put them under trading goods, it will not show in a very meaningful way for us, because adhesive is pretty much a part of our business.  In fact, if you look under adhesive and sealants, you see some products are under the Avian name. So, because we already have a presence in the Adhesive segment, we're just adding the Dexton  products to it. 

Are there any other questions?  Another question from Jamie. Thus far for the focus has been on driving volume growth in 2025, with the early signs of consumption recovery going into the fourth quarter of 2026 and potential for government stimulus to pick up in 2026. Will Avian continue to push for further market share gains? Or will there be greater emphasis on preserving margins to drive earnings growth in 2026? 

Thank you for the question again, Jamie. So I think the short answer is we'll always go for market share and then profit second. But that being said, you can also see that in our third quarter, once you reach a certain economy of scale, then your profit margin should go up.  And again,  in terms of the BTL spending for the promotions, we will exercise caution and discipline. If we don't need to spend, then we won't. But trying to gain more market share is always our goal because at this point in time, we think that our market share is maybe around 25%. That's still quite far from where we would like them to be. And therefore, as mentioned earlier, areas of innovation are something that we cannot ignore or take for granted.  In fact, just a few days ago, I was at the Avian Innovation Center, and we're already mapping out how many products we'll be launching next year. So you'll see more of them every quarter between now and next year. Thank you, Jamie.

Next question coming from Abhishek. Within the trading goods segment, has there been a compression of margins? 

Yes. Thank you for the question. For the last year, gross margin for our trading goods segment was not at a normal level as it benefited from a one-time bonus incentive from the principal, particularly related to the strong performance of our pipe products. So this uplift was temporary and should not be viewed as recurring. At the current level, at around 18%, I think the gross margin reflects a more normalized and sustainable level for the long term. 

Next question coming from Lydia Tan. As a market leader, will you foresee the paint market growth better than this 2025? And what will be your projection for your growth target in 2026? 

Thank you, Lydia. I think I missed out a question from Jamie earlier when he asked about the government stimulus and everything else. Look, I think if we look at how the new government is operating, there tends to be a lot of confusion. And as an Indonesian citizen and as a businessman, I think I feel the exact same way. We are not relying on any kind of government stimulus to basically achieve any of our growth profile in the future.  If the government is indeed going to be spending more stimulus towards more construction and everything else, I'm sure that, as a market leader, we will benefit from that. However, our current business really cannot just depend on whether the government is going to spend any kind of stimulus. So the way we look at it is that always trying to get more market share. And even if the market is not growing, we'll try to get it from the other players. That's how our thought process is.  Now going to Lydia's question with regards to the market growth in 2025, or what our projection of growth is in 2026. I think when we set our value growth for every year, we're always taking into account the Indonesian GDP growth. And we believe that in a country where many houses are still not painted, the growth for the paint segment needs to be faster than the overall GDP.  So 2 weeks ago, I was actually visiting some big customers in Bandung. So I was taking [Wish] for the first time. Yes, I'm quite embarrassed to admit it to you guys. You guys probably have taken [Wish] many times before I have, or much longer than I have, but I finally took my last 2 weeks ago. So it's interesting. So next time, if you take Wish going to Bandung, keep an eye on the houses as you pass by. You'll notice that as soon as you travel, just maybe a couple of minutes out of Bandung or even out of Jakarta, more than 80% of the walls are not painted. So obviously, this is a good scenario for us as a paint company. So, as the consumer disposable income will grow in the future, which it will, they cannot be bad forever like where they are now, then obviously, there will be some need for them to basically paint their houses.  So I think that's how we see it. So even for next year's guidance, Lydia, it will definitely grow faster than the Indonesian GDP, which is hovering around 5%. So you will at least get a similar kind of guidance to what we are guiding you this year. That is the least minimum that we'll be guiding our investors. 

Next question coming from Dafa again. What is the sales outlook for the fourth quarter this year?

Yes. So in the fourth quarter, things remain to be seen. We need to continue with our approach, which has been working well for us in the first 3 quarters this year, especially in the last quarter, and try to continue with them. So all kinds of approaches, marketing, and even proper and even better monitoring within our internal teams are things that we will continue to do and focus on.  But I mean, early indication, when I look at my October number, our sales were still growing. So even with a very high September number that we did, our October was still okay. So this is obviously a good indicator for us. So I think the months of November and December will be the ultimate decider whether we can bring everything and then hit double-digit for the overall consolidated sales or not. So yes, we're still working very hard to make sure that that can happen. 

Next question coming from Abhishek again.  How was competitive intensity evolving in the market, both for large and small players? How are other large players reacting to Avia's recent market share gains? 

So when we introduced our price hike as of the 1st of August, there have been a few more competitors who reacted and followed suit. So Nippon Paine has also introduced a price hike. And a second company that I knew was MovileX. MovileX has also decided to implement a price hike. I haven't seen anything from other companies at this point in time, but I'm sure that they will also do something, especially when the Ruppeiah, U.S. dollars continue to weaken. But we now have the low oil prices. So again, if that low oil price is able to counteract the impact of the U.S. dollar-Ruppeiah, then maybe they won't raise their price.  Now, with regards to how other large players are reacting to our recent market share gains, I think there are probably less than 3 players, or maybe 4 players, Abhishek, who would probably look at our presentation on a quarterly basis. So other than you guys who attend this meeting here, the rest probably don't care. I mean, for us, I think it's a good thing. We don't want our competitors to look at us quite closely or very closely.  So outside of these 4 players, basically, never a reaction whatsoever, I don't think. But the 4 players who are paying close attention to our numbers, this is where we need to decide whether we're going to retaliate, spend more of our marketing budget on below-the-line promotions, and so on and so on. But one thing that we can do that not many of our competitors are able to copy, Abhishek, is the planned action in 2025 on the first point, which is to introduce new products.  So, on this topic, you can see that even a medium-sized player or even the top 5 players  don't necessarily introduce more than 1 product or 2 at most a year. And we've introduced 8 so far, and there's going to be a few more that we'll introduce in the fourth quarter. So this is the first one that we know that we have an upper hand on the innovation side.  Secondly is the acceleration of the deployment of tinting machines. So we've been working quite hard to try to convince our customers. Now that some of the second generation or the next generation are starting to come and play a more important role in the building material shops, when their parents are getting a bit older, and now the son or daughter starts to get involved. These younger generations, we can influence them much more easily because they understand numbers, and we can show them the kind of profit margins you'll be making from tinting machines and everything else.  As a result, we've been adding more and more tinting machines to the market. And not many players can copy this. Maybe outside of the top 5 players, capital requirement will be a big challenge because one set of tinting machines is really not cheap. So if you install 100, 1,000, that will really require a significant CapEx, which is why I think when we're guiding our next year for our routine CapEx, it's no longer at 2%. It will be more at 3% because we'll be adding more and more tinting machines going forward, in trying to have more printing machines than any of our competitors by a big margin. And that's how we see ourselves gaining more market share. 

Any other questions?  Being the market leader and able to continue the growth, it is indeed impressive and built on many building blocks. But are there any challenges that you have faced from other top 10 players in the market during quarter 3? 

It's always the same players, Lydia. So we don't see anybody all of a sudden becoming a lot more responsive, a lot more aggressive. It's just the same players. And I think you all know who our closest competitor is. So it's just basically them. And other top players really don't do anything much. If they're doing anything at all.  In fact, look, this is no longer a secret. Apso has mentioned that they're trying to exit their entire Asia business. So obviously, it would mean that Indonesia is also a portion of that. So they will try to exit in Indonesia. And so far, they haven't done anything major in Indonesia that would lead to any kind of market share gain. So yes, it's just the same players, no other surprises, let's put it that way.  Any other questions? Go ahead, Andreas. 

Lydia asked again. Is Avian interested in buying the AkzoNobel Indo business? 

I think the answer is fingers crossed, Lydia. Look, to be honest, if I go back to our disciplined approach to M&A, AkzoNobel's business in Indonesia fits well within our business. So are we interested in buying AkzoNobel Indonesia? Of course. But the obvious question is, is it possible? And what are some of the circumstances, and then how easy is it? And Akzo is a large conglomerate. And we know that for a fact that Indonesia's business to them is contributing in a very small way. So whether that will take time or whether anything will happen, it is the uncertainty that we'll never know. But the short answer is, are we interested in buying AkzoNobel? The answer is yes. 

Are there any other questions? 

There have been some rumors in the market media. Some customers basically came to me through whatever channels and said, "Hey, is Avian buying Axle? I said, Wow, I've only heard about it, too, from you. But there have been rumors in the market. But you'll never know. We'll see.  Okay. Maybe we can conclude the call if there are no other questions. 

If you have any other questions that have not been answered, please do not hesitate to reach out to me. I will coordinate with the management and get back to you as soon as possible. Once again, we appreciate your participation in our quarter 3 2025 earnings call today and look forward to seeing you again in the next earnings call. Take care, and bye-bye. Wish