PTC India Financial Services Limited (533344) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q3 FY '25 Investor Conference Call hosted by PTC India Financial Services Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Priya Chaudhary. Thank you, and over to you, Ms. Chaudhary.

Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I'm Priya Chaudhary. I'm Head, Investor Relations at PFS. Welcome to Q3 FY '25 Investor Call for PTC India Financials. We are delighted to have this opportunity to connect with our stakeholders to discuss the company's performance, strategic priorities and the way ahead. The past quarter has been marked by progress in our key focus area, which shall provide us the stepping stone for the growth going forward, from focus on resolving legacy issues of NPAs, financials to disbursement of INR 866 crores till Q3 FY '25 compared to INR 585 crores the whole of last financial year, to positive cash flows across ALM buckets, just to name a few. With secular tailwinds of increased infra spend and focus on sustainability, we are well positioned to drive growth. I will now like to introduce the top management team of PFS present in today's call: Mr. R. Balaji, MD and CEO; Mr. K. Srinivas, Executive Director; Mr. Abhinav Goyal, Interim CFO. With this, I would now like to hand over the call to Mr. R. Balaji for his opening remarks and insights on the company's performance. Over to you, Balaji.

Thanks, Priya. Good morning, all. So this quarter -- the last quarter was a significant quarter in the sense we made significant progress in our transformation journey. As all of you are aware, PFS has been plagued by qualifications on its financial statement. So in last quarter, we made a significant progress towards removing it. How this was achieved? This was achieved by 2 or 3 critical steps. One, we significantly enhanced our systems and controls. This was done through automation of IT systems and putting other checks in place, wherein we have greater control over the end result without compromising on customer centricity. That was one. Two, more importantly, this was being done by ensuring that the employees are engaged and aligned. So with these 2, where the passion of the people got unleashed, the organization started showing results. As far as business is concerned, we have taken cautious steps towards getting back on to growth, and this is a multiyear journey. And the efforts that we are putting would manifest in the subsequent quarters, which I will comment at the end, et cetera. The only analogy I would like to give is, today, above the ground, the visible outcomes might not seem to be many. But out here, I would like to share the example of the Chinese bamboo tree, like when the Chinese Bamboo is planted. For the first 5 years, nothing much is visible above the ground. But on the sixth year, suddenly, the bamboo shoots up close to 20-odd meters. It doesn't mean nothing in 5 years -- has happened in the first 5 years. First 5 years, it was growing the roots so that it could actually strengthen itself. We are not saying it's going to take 5 years. But what we are saying is, in the next 2, 3 quarters, we are transforming. We started in quarter 2, quarter 3, quarter 4, significant things happening. The results should start being visible from quarter 4 onwards in terms of business outcomes and also, more importantly, in terms of resolution of stressed assets and other key changes. So I would leave it to Abhinav to take you through the quarter that was there. Subsequently, Abhinav, Srinivas and I would be there to answer all your queries. Come on, Abhinav.

Yes. So very good morning to all esteemed stakeholders. As our MD Balaji has just mentioned that this quarter is a year of achievement for us in terms of the qualification, which we were having since last few quarters, has been dropped by the auditor. It's because of the continuous dedicated effort of the management and the team. So that's a milestone which we achieved. So there are 2 aspects for any financial statement. One is the quantity and second one is the quality, right? So quality is of utmost importance, which we have achieved, to a large extent, in this quarter. There is still some scope of improvement in terms of emphasis of matter on which we are working in, probably in the coming quarter or in quarters to come, that may also be taken care of. Now as regard to financial performance, of course, the performance may be evaluated on the basis of 2 parameters. One is the performance and another towards, again, the performance. So first, if I talk about, it is just we did a sanction of INR 225 crores and a disbursement of only INR 300 crores in the current quarter. So this is how one can look at the financial. But another way of looking at the performance is that against the NIM sanction. In the last quarter, we did INR 225 crores, it's the beginning, which has been started. Against a nil disbursement in last quarter, we have done a disbursement of INR 300 crores. It's the beginning, which has been started. So I will go through the financial figures. This quarter, we have reported a total income of INR 158 crores and total expense of INR 77 crores. Our profit before tax is around INR 81 crores, which is higher in comparison to last quarter or higher in comparison to corresponding quarter of last year. We have reported a profit after tax of INR 67 crores. One of the major contributor for that is a reversal of provisions, which we have made in earlier year. This quarter, we have a reversal of INR 11.33 crores in terms of unsustainable provision in 1 loan account, IL&FS Tamil Nadu, where we have a recovery in this quarter. So this has not only contributed in our profit after tax, but also have contributed in terms of cash flow to the company. And in terms -- on that amount, in quarter to come, we will be having more profit to the company. Now in terms of our cost of borrowed funds, it -- though has been increased to 9.57% in this quarter, but with the improvement in the quality of our financial statement and the start of the performance, we are quite hopeful that this aspect also will be taken care of in the coming quarter. Then interest spread stood at 1.85%, net interest margin is 4.46%. Our earnings per share is INR 1.05 for the quarter, which has been improved from INR 0.74 in last quarter, and it was INR 0.78 in the corresponding quarter of last financial year. Our cost-to-income ratio is 17.71%. Capital adequacy is fantastic level, although it's not been fantastic for us, resulting -- we are expecting to have a reduction in capital adequacy, where there should be more business to the company and more income generation to the company and more value creation to the stakeholders. Our debt-to-equity ratio is 1.15x. Return on net worth is 10.09%, and our return on assets is 4.51%. So over to you, Balaji.

Thanks, Abhinav. Now before I come up with concluding remarks, Srinivas would speak for some time on what we are doing as far as the business strength is concerned. Srinivas, please share.

So good morning, everyone. I think Abhinav and Balaji have given a fairly detailed overview of the company's performance and a brief overview of the business prospects. Now if we look at it in terms of pure numbers, there are certain, what Abhinav has explained is -- you would have listened to that. But then, yes, from a purely business growth perspective, there have been substantial efforts in trying to increase the business turnaround times and the business -- and the credit sanctions and all, some of which is reflected in terms of the figures that Abhinav has quoted. But what also the figure is not reflecting, substantial efforts that have been taken to retain some of our existing clients, which have been very fruitful in the sense that these are quality assets and which we have taken a lot of pain to retain them. And also, what happens is that it is also a message to the -- to our clients that we value the relationship, and we are willing to go the extra mile in terms of retaining them. And this also helps in providing much more stability to our loan book. The second part is, there has been a consistent progress compared to the previous financial year in terms of disbursements as well as loan sanctions. And that effort is well underway. And in terms of sanctions...

Sorry to interrupt, ladies and gentlemen. Please stay connected while we reconnect the management line. [Technical Difficulty] Ladies and gentlemen, we have the management line reconnected. Sir, you can go ahead.

Yes. Sorry for the network disturbance. To continue from where I left off. The -- I was actually talking about the Q4. I was just starting off in terms of the prospects for the Q4. Substantial efforts have been made to improve the pipeline of proposals under evaluation. And I am happy to state that while we remain conscious of the quality of credit that we are willing to take on our books, we do have significant pipeline in terms of the number of proposals that are currently under evaluation, which would be maybe in the range of at least INR 500 crores to INR 600 crores. And we hope that in terms of sanction proposals, that Q4 would reflect a significant improvement in numbers. And depending on the timing, in terms of the sanctions and the compliances with respect to the pre-disbursement conditions and all that, we hope to have some significant -- depending on that, we hope to have significant amount of disbursement in Q4, which would be a substantial progress for the overall numbers from FY '23 -- FY '24 to FY '25. Balaji, do you want to add anything?

Thanks, Srinivas. So Abhinav and Srinivas spoke about the various -- in terms of financial results and about the business. I would take a step back and go back to what we had said in last investor call after the Q2 results. In that call, we had said this year is going to be the year of stabilization, and when I had mentioned what are the things that we'll be focusing upon. So one of the things which we said, like, for example, I'd categorize it like we need to strengthen the foundation. Therefore, the key thing is, how do we resolve the legacy issues that we have shown? All of you would have seen in the financial statements that the qualifications have been removed, but more importantly, systems and processes have been strengthened. So we are institutionalizing our internal processes. As far as strengthening management and leadership, new talent is being onboarded. And in the fourth quarter, they will be coming onboard, and employee engagement has been increased. Now while we're enhancing the employee engagement, one thing which I must say, it's not happened in Q3 but it has happened in January of this year, is we have restructured our organization to make it much more customer-centric. So that there is the concept of a relationship manager who would be with the customer across the entire life cycle, so that way, we are delineating the business side from the credit side of it. And we also created a separate operations department, which will ensure that we are able to have such processes and controls in place with no conflict of interest. That's what, one, we are doing. And two, the other thing which we have spoken about was actually strengthening the asset quality. And you would recollect that around 4 of our assets, our cases accounts for more than 90%, 92% of our NPAs. So the progress -- there has been significant progress in some of them. The one critical thing is NSL, that is Nagapatnam. It has been -- we got a successful bidder through the NCLT process, but the original promoter or the management went to the court and got a stay. We are happy to state that in the month of December, the stay in Andhra High Court has been vacated. Now the -- Telangana High Court, sorry, Telangana High Court, and then the ball has now shifted to the NCLT. We expect a solution. So this is a case, where -- which accounts for INR 125 crores or approximately 2.4% of our gross NPAs. While we have provided for it, the money should come hopefully by -- if not in this quarter, by next quarter. It will straight away go to the bottom line. Another case, Vento, which is a reasonable -- which, again, accounts for close to 2.6%, 2.7% of our NPAs. So we are happy to say that we are proceeding with the change of management. Now the entire process is in place. We expect to resolve this asset by the end of this quarter, by end of March 31 when we'll have the winning bidder. And two, more importantly, the entire money would come to the organization before the end of June quarter. That's the second thing. And the important thing to note out here is, currently, our net outstanding -- net, which is INR 55 crores, INR 60 crores, which is seen as a net NPA, we expect the recovery to be substantially more than this, therefore, we'll not have to take any impairment. There could be a positive accrual as far as this is concerned. The other case, IL&FS. Everybody knows IL&FS Tamil Nadu Power Company was restructured. And for the past 14 months, the payment has been on time. The security creation has been done, and the company is awaiting a credit rating. Once this credit rating happens, it would most likely happen in June and not -- by the June quarter. We were expecting it to happen by March, and we are not -- while there are indications it could happen, but I'm not exactly -- I cannot comment with certainty that this would happen. Once that happens, this, again, become a standard asset. Again, this would release some INR 75-odd crores that we have provided for it. That leaves us with Danu, which is INR 280 crores, which is around close to 5.5% of our loan book size with a net NPA of approximately close to 3%. We are progressing toward resolving this, and we expect this to be resolved by June. But even if we exclude Danu, so what we can see, the other 3 cases, which are NSL or IL&FS or Vento, which nearly, upon these 3 cases, account for nearly 65%, 70% of our gross NPAs. And these 3 -- these cases account for close to 40% of our net NPAs, we'll be able to clear it up with a positive thing. The way forward will be clear by end of March, that some things will happen. The second thing, what -- third thing, sorry, what we are doing is we are significantly going to upgrade our IT capabilities. This, I would like to put it in 2 -- across 2 significant things: one, strengthen the overall application architecture to ensure that customer centricity is delivered at the highest level, and more importantly, the controls are maintained. This would involve creating a data warehouse so that all the important data of the company is in one place. And more importantly, to ensure ease of internal operations, we are going to undertake a significant automation activities to ensure that, overall, the internal friction points are reduced to the minimum. This is something that could happen. And finally, since we don't have any hard assets in financial services, we are actually very people-dependent. So apart from engagement, a significant internal talent upgradation activity is happening, wherein we'll be going through the assessment centers to ensure that people are given the -- identified, their strengths identified, and more importantly, they're being provided the support to enhance their skills and capabilities to meet the future requirements of the organization. With all these things, we are sure that quarter 4 would be good. And more importantly, our foundation would have been on a reasonably robust footing so that we can attack the market with renewed vigor in the subsequent quarters. That's it from our side. Srinivas, Abhinav, Priya and I are here to take your questions.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from the line of Manoj Kumar Pandey, who is an investor.

Sir, my first question is, as the brief given by CEO, Mr. Balaji, that the company has already consolidated its internal systems, now the project pipelines are to be the main things which need to be augmented. So how -- I want to know how much and what efforts the company is taking? And what would be the figures would be at the end of quarter 4 of this financial year? Secondly -- second question, which -- it's also that you see our capital adequacy ratio is increasing every quarter. Now it has crossed even 50%. So what we -- this indicates that you have too much lending capacity. So how soon you are going to address this increasing capital adequacy ratio and increase your lending substantially? What management is taking -- what extra measures management is taking place for all these things?

Thank you. I will answer your second question first. You're right, capital adequacy will be addressed only by the increasing loan book. And increase the loan book, apart from getting enough customers, we also need to have enough resourcing lines. I am happy to state that, yesterday, we received an in-principle approval from 1 financial institution for INR 500 crores. So now once -- if 1 player comes on board, over the next few months, we expect other financial institutions to start lending to us. That would make us to compete in the marketplace to acquire more customers. Now let's come to your first question, what are the prospects? We are cautiously optimistic that what disbursement we did in the first 9 months, we will be able to double that in the fourth quarter.

Okay. So I give you all the best. Please continue upward journey that is more expected so much.

Thank you.

[Operator Instructions] The next question comes from the line of [ Channamallu Halagodi ], who is an investor.

Thank you for a good set of numbers for this quarter. Am I audible, sir?

Yes.

So when will you appoint the Chief Financial Officer and Chief Compliance Officer, sir?

The Chief Financial Officer has been selected, and we have sent it to RBA. Since he's a director on Board, that's a procedure that needs to be followed. Since the change in the executive or the nominee directors is more than 30%, it needs to go to RBI for approval. We expect the approval from RBI very shortly, in the next 2 to 3 weeks. And then the person, based on how soon he is getting relieved from his existing organization, should have -- will join. So we expect the Chief Financial Officer to join by end of March or early April. That's what we expect. And as far as Chief Compliance Officer is concerned, we got some restructuring. By March 31, the Chief Compliance Officer will be in place.

The next question is from the line of V.P. Rajesh from Banyan Capital.

Sorry about that. I was on mute. Balaji, Congratulations on...

Sorry to interrupt you, sir. May I request you to use your handset, sir. Your audio is not clear, sir.

Just a minute, please.

Yes, sir.

Is this better now?

Yes, sir. Please go ahead.

Okay. Congratulations, Balaji. It's great to hear that you have your first approval letter for the lending line. And my question was that, what kind of rate are we getting on that? And because now that, as you said, the other folks will also start providing the lines, what kind of growth can we expect in fiscal '26 on the loan book?

See, what we have got is an in-principle, therefore, it would be too presumptuous or too early for us to comment on it. And as a matter of principle or policy, we do not commit on -- comment on the individual sanction rates. Like what Abhinav has shared in the quarter 3, what was our weighted average lending rate. Now the thing, what we are looking at, if you -- we have seen this year, we said this is year of stabilization and, therefore, we'll be ending with a small growth compared to previous year. So we expect the book anywhere between INR 5,800 crores to INR 6,000 crores. That's where we would lend as far as this financial year is concerned. But more importantly, once the other lenders start coming in, right, the thing is, is not to benchmark with the past in terms of what it is. Going forward, we would seek to disburse, on an average, close to some INR 800 crores to INR 1,000 crores on a quarterly basis. Because you would appreciate that, in this industry, we cannot control the customer prepayments. Because once the project gets commercialized, customers get it refinanced at a lower rate. So we'd be anywhere, looking at next year, INR 3,500 crores to INR 4,000 crores of disbursements for the next year. That's what we will be doing for. And you can work out your numbers as far as the AUM is concerned, depending upon where we are based upon prepayments and others. But it will be a substantially healthy growth rate that we can assure you on behalf of the PFS team.

Right. No, that's very helpful. My other question was that, in terms of the NIMs, how do you see those moving? Most of the banks and NBFCs that have reported so far in this earnings season have been talking about the liquidity being tight. And is it fair to assume that it is not impacting us that much because we were -- we have a lot of equity capital to be lending out at least in the current quarter? So just wanted to get a sense of that.

So Abhinav will take that.

Yes. So Abhinav, again, this side. As regard to NIM, although it stood at 4.46% at this point of time. But as you rightly said that major contributor as of now is from equity. So going forward, our focus would be on having a more loan portfolio in terms of more profitability to the company. So this ratio may be towards a downward trend in quarter to come, but the focus would be on an interest effect, where we are targeting to maintain in a range of 2% to 2.5%, at least, which, as of now, it is standing at 1.85%. So that's how our financials should be looked into. And with a more leverage, that leverage would have an impact. At one point of time, we were at INR 13,321 crores. Right now, we are at slightly above INR 5,000 crores. So that's the target, right now, we are having to achieve in the next 1 to 2 years. So this ratio will be down, of course, but there will be more value to the shareholders. That's how our financials should be looked.

Got it. And then lastly, on the credit rating. Do you expect that to be upgraded before your year-end financials are in place? Or just wanted to get a sense of the time line that, could it happen before your annual financials are available? Presumably, by then, all the matter of emphasis, et cetera, would have been taken care of. So just wanted to get a sense of the timing on that.

We can expect whatever we want. We're expecting much more, but it's dependent upon the credit rating agency. See, I will just -- but frivolities apart, right, I would just try to go back to what when CRISIL in September has reaffirmed on our rating, long-term rating at A. They said 3 things in terms of our ratings, what are the constraints for us going forward. One is the ability to do business; two, ability to garner additional resources; three is the quality of the asset book. So now if you look into it, we are making beginnings in business. It will just only strengthen from here. We have also taken initial steps towards garnering resources. And as far as the asset quality is concerned, by the end of March, there will be improvement and, more importantly, resolution path will be clearly defined. So I don't want to speak for them. But once the annual results comes, only then we'll be in a position to take a proper informed decision. So what we could say, by June, significant changes would have happened, and that's when the action will begin significantly.

The next question comes from the line of Amey Chheda with Banyan Capital.

I just had 2 questions. So in the last con call...

Sorry to interrupt you, sir. Sir, may we request you to use your handset, please?

Is it better now?

Yes, sir, slightly better.

Yes. So in the last con call, we had guided for NIMs to be around 4%, 4.5%, right? And right now, actually, we are -- is it a downward revision of our guidance for NIMs?

Abhinav?

No, sir. NIM, as I mentioned in response to the previous question, so NIM, as of now, the major contributor would be in terms of equity, right? So going forward, our focus would be having more growth in terms of portfolio so as to create more value to our esteemed shareholders and other stakeholders as well. Now if we do that, then there will be more leverage to the company. And with the increase in the leverage, there would be an adverse impact on the NIM. Of course, it would be maintained in certain range. It should be over 3% over a period of time.

Okay. And what is the ideal debt-to-equity that we are comfortable with?

Amey, one second. Just to add on in last time. If I recollect properly, what we had said is 2 things. In the medium to long term, we would ensure that our return on asset is anywhere between 2.5% to 2.75%, so that we're able to maintain it in this. Now like what Abhinav was saying, as we're expanding our debt-to-equity, as we get more resources from banks, there would be a compression of NIMs because our equity contribution is going down. And going back to the primary thing what we said, therefore, the most important thing is, what is our interest spread that we would be maintaining in the 2%, 2.5%, so that we're able to get not only a healthy return on assets, but more importantly, as we expand our book size, even our return on equity improves substantially.

So once things stabilize, right, by the end of this year and probably by Q1 of next year, what is the kind of cost to income that we can see on a steady-state basis? Because this quarter, it has increased due to higher OpEx.

See, it's not a question of OpEx. And ultimately, it's a question of denominator. Once our books increase, I think we will ensure that our cost to income does not increase 15%. Now it's 13% or something, 13%, 13.5%. So we'll ensure that it does not go more than 15% because the 2 areas where we need to focus upon, right, is while we are aggressively ramping up the business, we'll also invest in 2 critical areas. One is significant investments in our risk department as it is the regulators around the world are focusing a lot on risk. So that's one thing, which we'll be upgrading upon. And two, ramping our business development or relationship management team so that we are able to acquire more customers. And three, very importantly, in terms of upgrading our assessment capability -- capacity in terms of our credit team. So these are the 3. So let me put it this way, since our balance sheet size is small, I would urge you not to look at quarter-on-quarter basis because sometimes it will give the thing. Look at the overall 12 months. So by the end of FY '26, this would be around 15%-odd, that's what it would stabilize at.

Okay. Just last question. So what would be the interest cost differential between, say, if you get funds from banks versus financial institutions. I'm not asking the exact rate for each of them, but will it be 250 or 300 basis points differential for us?

Could you repeat the question, between which two people?

Banks and financial institutions.

Let's get, and then we will talk about it.

Okay, okay. No problem.

See, at this point of time, close to 97%, 98% are from banks. So at this point of time, whatever be the interest differential, either positive or negative, right, it would be minuscule. So I think this would be something, which, for FY '27, that's the time when we got diversified significantly beyond banks. That's when it would make a difference to our sourcing mix.

The reason I'm asking you is that, as we get more financial institution funding, right, they come at a slightly expensive rate. So just wondering if our cost of funds or cost of borrowings will increase hereon because of the mix change.

See, I think the most important thing, that's a very valid question, Amey, at this time. So the important thing from a financial institution perspective, there are 2 things. We need to have resource diversification to reduce concentration risks. So that tomorrow, whatever happens in any segment of the market, it does not impact us adversely. And obviously, there's a price to be paid for such a trade-off. So what is it that we need to do in order to maintain our margins so as to deliver a good return on asset? So therefore, that means we need to manage our asset side well. So here, I would ask Srinivas to answer what he's planning to do to ensure that our margins are maintained.

Yes. Thanks, Balaji. See, a couple of things that are there, which we are consciously looking at in terms of the growth in loan book as well as the existing asset book management. One, of course, is in terms of the ticket sizes. I think, earlier, PFS was very comfortable when the overall loan book was closer to -- or in the range of, say, INR 10,000 crores to INR 15,000 crores. We were happy with the higher ticket sizes. But then, yes, considering the decreased loan book at the moment, we are -- from a very -- from a concentration risk perspective, even on the asset side, we are looking at slightly lower ticket sizes so that the overall concentration risk is not too skewed. And secondly, we are also looking at different products. That does not necessarily mean that we are looking at noninfrastructure sector or something. But even within the overall infrastructure segment, we are looking at areas where we can improve our yield. This can be in the nature of structured products in the infrastructure space. Or this can be in areas within the infrastructure space, where we -- where there is a possibility of making a bit higher yield and while looking at the credit quality closely. The second is from a diversification, we have a 25% space open for noninfrastructure segments. And this is an area that we'll be looking at very closely in terms of -- more in terms of the diversification that it provides and also in terms of the wider opportunities that are available in this space.

The next question is from the line of Manoj Kumar Pandey, who's an investor.

My one more question is, sir, are you planning any resource raising from foreign financial institutions? Because last -- 2 years back, something was planned, and it could not materialize due to certain unavoidable reasons. I think it may offer you some cost advantages also.

Yes. Abhinav, take that.

Yes, Mr. Manoj, you are right. So we explored it in 2020 and then again explored in 2022. Somehow, it was not materialized. Of course, we are open, and we are exploring with our overseas relationship to have a further guideline to us.

Just to add, Mr. Pandey, our entire perspective is reducing concentration risk, both on the asset side, like what Srinivas talked about projects, and also on the liability side. So primarily, our entire approach is currently 97%, 98% is from banks, primarily public sector banks. So our -- on the liability side, diversification will happen across 3 fronts. First front, diversify across the banking sector, get more number of banks on board, get private sector banks also on board. That is the first leg of diversification. Secondly, move from banks to nonbanks. When I say nonbanks, whether mutual funds through bonds, mutual funds or insurance companies. That is the second stage of diversification. Three, more importantly, diversify between domestic and international. That would be the third level. Now if we have to go towards international things, apart from our performance, one of the critical thing was to have a qualification-free balance sheet, which we have achieved as far as the end of third quarter is concerned. And this full year's annual financial statements will vindicate that. More importantly, the international investors would also look at other activities, look at organization in a holistic manner. So what we have also started doing, we are developing a road map for ESG so that apart from our financial performance, we are coming across as one of the key or leading organizations in ESG. And as far as ESG is concerned, once the road map is fleshed out in the subsequent -- in the April or the July quarter, we'll be able to share more details with all of you so that we want to emerge as a pioneer in the funding of green finance, not just do responsible lending, but ensure that across the entire value chain of PFS, we are seen as a beacon for the entire industry. That's our road map, and that's what we work upon. With that, and our improved financials and size, we'll be able to attract the international investors, whom we want, at our terms, in terms of tenure and pricing.

Okay. Good, sir. Good. So we expect that next financial year, by second or third quarter, you would be able to approach some foreign financial institutions?

No, I'm not saying that. Our road map is ready because it's a long, multi-year journey. For us, the next year, primary thing is broad-basing within the domestic financial institutions, broad base amongst banks and get some incremental moneys from insurance and mutual funds. That's the primary thing. International will take -- if it comes, great, but I think one should look after '27 and beyond.

As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. R. Balaji for closing comments.

Thank you, all. I think you've all been patient with the organization for the past few years. Our only submission is that the green shoots are there, but there's a lot of hard work, which, we, as a team, need to do before we truly come up to speed. And the next few quarters would be very interesting. What we could say as far -- on behalf of the management, significant efforts are going. Sometimes that time lines might go a quarter here or there, but we are reasonably confident that, in the medium term, we should be able to get to a good book size. And more importantly, not only have a good return on asset, but once we're able to leverage reasonably well, even our return on equity would start coming up to scratch. That's it. Look forward to your inputs and support. Thank you very much.

Thank you. On behalf of PTC India Financial Services Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.