RaySearch Laboratories AB (publ) (RAYB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to the presentation of RaySearch year-end report for 2024. My name is Eva Nelson, and I will be the moderator here today. Joining us in today's call is Johan Löf, RaySearch Founder and CEO; and also Nina Grönberg, RaySearch new CFO. Welcome, Nina.

Thank you.

Johan and Nina will give you a short summary of the quarter, including the financials. And after that, we'll open up for questions. And you can ask them either orally or in writing. I also want to remind you that this session is recorded, and you can find it through the same link as you use for this Teams meeting and on RaySearch website. And with that, I hand over to you, Johan. Go ahead.

Okay. Thank you, Eva. So I would like to start by welcoming all of you to today's webcast and also by welcoming Nina, who recently joined us here at RaySearch as CFO. I'm happy to announce that our sales for the fourth quarter were our highest ever, SEK 323 million, an increase of 8% compared to the same period in 2023. Operating profit was SEK 74 million corresponding to an operating margin of 23%. The improved margin was mainly driven by increased license revenue, which amounted to SEK 160 million. Order intake was SEK 293 million, 4% down from last year. But we're keeping up our momentum and opportunities for continued growth in Q1, and subsequent quarters look promising. RaySearch has a strong cash position of SEK 463 million, stable cash flow and no loans. Considering the company's financial position and good future prospects, the Board of Directors proposed to increase the dividend from SEK 2 to SEK 3 per share. At the end of last year, the team at Trento Proton Therapy Center in Italy became the first in the world to introduce Discrete Proton Arc treatments. The plans were optimized in RayStation and delivered with a machine from IBA. Proton Arc therapy is a method that has the potential to substantially improve treatments for patients. RaySearch has been a pioneer, and we played a crucial role in this development. And I'm happy and proud that the method now is in clinical use. In October, GenesisCare in the U.K. purchased RayStation. GenesisCare has 14 specialist outpatient cancer centers across the U.K., and the order will enable them to fully replace the current Pinnacle treatment planning system with RayStation. RayStation will also improve GenesisCare's established adaptive radiotherapy capabilities and continue to support remote planning across the entire network. In early 2024, we acquired the product, DrugLog, which is a quality assurance system for chemotherapy. DrugLog complements our product offering and represents yet another step towards achieving our long-term vision of providing software support for all types of cancer treatments, including chemotherapy and surgery. In January this year, we received our first DrugLog order from the Children's Memorial Health Institute in Warsaw in Poland. In the beginning of December, we exhibited at RSNA, which is the world's largest radiology conference, among other product features, launches, we presented new module for liver ablation in RayStation. The method has been developed in collaboration between RaySearch and MD Anderson Cancer Center and has shown significantly improved outcomes during liver ablation in the clinical trial. The reception at RSNA was very positive, and I'm looking forward to the development in this new and exciting area. Last May, we launched RayCare 2024A with many feature updates and improved usability and efficiency. And in September, an important milestone was achieved when Iridium Network in Belgium treated the first patient using RayCare together with TrueBeam. With RayCare now in clinical use with TrueBeam, we see a sharp increase in customer interest. Now let's take a closer look at the financials. So please, Nina, go ahead.

Yes. Thank you, Johan. Starting with the overview of the quarter 4, I think it's worth repeating that RaySearch reached an all-time high level in net sales, both in the quarter and for the full year. Net sales in quarter 4 increased by 8% to SEK 323 million compared to SEK 300 million last year. Adjusted for currency effects, the growth was 9%. The sales of licenses amounted to SEK 160 million corresponding to a growth of 16%. And the support revenue amounted to SEK 131 million, which is an increase of 9% compared to last year. The quarter 4 order intake decreased by 4% from SEK 318 million to SEK 305 million. The order intake for licenses were down 1%, ending at SEK 159 million, and the order intake for support decreased 5% to SEK 105 million. And it is important to bear in mind that the nature of the order intake, especially from licenses, that it fluctuates between the quarters and that net sales can, to a far extent, be generated from orders received in the same quarter. The operating expenses for the period amounted to SEK 235 million compared to SEK 223 million in the same quarter last year, and that corresponds to an increase of 5%. As also mentioned in previous quarterly calls, there has been a reclassification between sales costs and administration costs in the 2024 consolidated profit and loss statement. And the effects from this has been disclosed in a separate table in the year-end report on Page 7. Quarter 4 was another quarter of strong performance. Operating profit ended at SEK 74 million, and the operating margin was 23%, and that is 8 percentage points higher than last year's 15%. Operating profit last year was SEK 44 million. The cash flow from operations amounted to SEK 103 million in the quarter compared to last year's SEK 116 million. And it has been affected by fluctuations in contract assets and contract abilities. The cash flow for the period was SEK 24 million, and we had higher lease payments in the cash flow statement in 2024 that was related to that we had lease payments that belong to 2023 that was made in the beginning of January 2024. Moving on to the full year. Order intake grew 8% from SEK 1.004 billion last year to SEK 1.087 billion in 2024. The order intake for licenses grew 13%, amounting to SEK 523 million and the order intake for support increased by 1% to SEK 396 million. The full year growth in net sales was 17% from SEK 1.022 billion in 2023 to SEK 1.192 billion. The sales of licenses increased with 30% to SEK 576 million, and support sales was up 14% to SEK 473 million. RaySearch ends a strong year with an operating profit of SEK 260 million and a double operating margin of 22%. Last year's operating profit was SEK 115 million and the operating margin was 11%. Cash flow from operations in 2024 improved to SEK 485 million compared to SEK 456 million in 2023. And the lower cash conversion rate in 2024, as I previously mentioned, is mainly related to fluctuations in contract assets and contract liabilities. The cash position at the end of the period amounts to SEK 463 million, and that is a significant increase from the position at the beginning of the year, which was SEK 344 million. Moving on, looking at the development of the EBIT and EBIT margin quarter-by-quarter for the last 2 years, it reflects a stable and really strong outcome during 2024. And that RaySearch is on a good move towards the target of at least 25% operating margin by 2026. And the strong development is also visible on the next slide, showing the rolling 12 development in net sales and operating result starting in the fourth -- in the first quarter in 2023, with a rolling 12 net sales of SEK 866 million and the rolling 12 EBIT of SEK 37 million and ending in the last quarter of 2024 with an almost 40% higher full year net sales and a 7x higher full year EBIT. Taking an even longer perspective on the development in net sales, it has been an almost steady growth development since 2008. The exceptions are 2020 and 2021 where sales was highly affected by COVID restrictions. And the recurring revenue from support sales was 40% of the total revenue in 2024. The end of the year backlog amounted to SEK 1.813 billion, of which SEK 552 million is expected to generate net sales in the next coming 12 months period. And that was all from me. Moving back to you, Johan.

Thank you, Nina. Okay. So with all-time high sales of SEK 1.19 billion, 17% higher than last year and an operating margin of 22%, I think we can summarize 2024 as a positive year for RaySearch. In light of our performance drier, the Board has decided to, as previously announced, to raise the target for the operating margin to at least 25% and for 2026. The previous target was 20%. And also have decided to propose a dividend increase to SEK 3 per share. With a solid year behind us, we are building on our strong momentum and see bright prospects for continued growth in 2025. Thank you.

So thank you, Johan and Nina. So we now open up for questions. You can either ask your question orally or writing in the chat. [Operator Instructions] There are already 3 questions in the chat. So from someone that's anonymous, how much of the -- you want to...

I see the questions. So the first one is how much of the revenue during the quarter comes from the large Spanish order, that means the Ortega order? And that's -- there is no revenue in this quarter from that order. We will see -- we believe we'll see the first revenue in -- towards the end of 2025. And then during the coming 3 years, that revenue will be generated. The question 2 is on Page 5 of the report, it says that the license revenue for the 3 largest contracts is SEK 69.8 million, which is 43.5%, should be 12%. What is correct? So Nina, can you check that?

Yes, I will. It might be a question that we have to...

I can answer, Nina, just question #3 in the meantime. We don't disclose the percentage of license revenue from RayCare, but it's rather small in this quarter. Should we move on? We can take that in the background.

Yes, I think that...

So should we come back to that?

Yes.

Okay. See if there are other questions...

Okay. Then there's an oral question from [ Oscar Bierman ].

So I've got quite a few questions, but there are not so much on the Q4 report itself. It's more about general level.

One at a time, then, because it's easy for us.

Yes, exactly. Of course. I prefer that as well. So I'm wondering if you can elaborate on what made Varian open up the interoperability with RayCare, I mean, considering Elekta isn't? And also, can you give some more background to Varian leaving the proton therapy field because I think you mentioned this before, but I failed to find much information on it.

Okay. The first question is, why did they open up for interoperability? I think Varian has as a strategy to -- I mean they have a big -- they call it Swedish ecosystem program where they open up for vendors in the industry to connect to their equipment. And so that's their policy. Also, I think the demand from many customers having RayStation and having Varian equipment, Varian LINACs have simply asked Varian to open up to RayCare. So it's been a balance of -- it's been a combination of Varian policy and the customer pressure, I would say.

Okay. Okay.

And the second question, I think, I should -- that's an internal Siemens question, I would say. I can only speculate, but -- I can state the fact that Siemens had, let's say, a big venture in carbon ion therapy back in the days, where they built 3 carbon ion facilities, 2 in Germany and 1 in China. And that was I think not a very economically beneficial project for Siemens. So they sort of -- I think they have been burned by particles, burned by carbon ion -- burned in the carbon ion field. So now when they acquired Varian for the -- mainly for the LINAC business, they also got sort of protons in the package. And so my speculation would be that Siemens wanted to get out of -- from the particle segment again. But again, it's only my speculation here.

Okay. Just a follow-up question on that because, I mean, one -- I think one could argue that Varian leaving the proton field would open up an opportunity for you, but I suspect that you're already sort of winning most of the orders with IBA in this field. Is that a correct assumption?

Yes, that's correct. Although it really meant that -- I mean we were very strong in the proton or in the particle segment, even before Siemens left. But that made us even more dominant when it Eclipse sort of -- but they haven't withdrawn Eclipse from proton planning. But I guess the customer perception is that if Siemens as a company leave the proton business, then they will not invest heavily in Eclipse. That's what I guess. So -- but in effect, we win pretty much every 100% of the proton particle orders currently. I mean we have 127 particle centers, which is, yes, maybe 85% of the market. But we're not only through IBA, we work with all of the proton vendors, and there are many. It's Hitachi, Sumitomo Heavy Industries, Mevion, the list -- Toshiba. It's a long list actually of vendors in this segment, and we work with all of those hardware vendors.

Yes. You have a lot of industrial partners. I'm wondering if there's a stickiness to those collaborations. I mean have you lost any partners in the last couple of years or an update...

Yes. We have very good partnerships with very many different companies as part of our strategy, and we really enjoy that.

Okay. And then I appreciate that you are very good on reporting the number of centers that RayStation is installed at. But can you give some more information on the number of licenses that are out there, so we can get sort of an understanding of how many licenses there is at the center?

That's a very good question. I can give you approximate numbers. So let's say that we are very close to 1,100 centers now. I think if I'm not mistaken, it's 1,096. And we have sold about 4,200 RayStations in total to those centers. That's an interesting number because -- the average number of LINACs in centers worldwide is 1.5. Since our installed base is a bit skewed towards larger centers, the average number of linacs in our installed base to 1,100 is 3 LINACs per center. And you need at least between 2 and 3 treatment planning systems per LINAC. And that means our installed base, if they were fully equipped with RayStation, they would have somewhere between, I think, 7,500 and 8,000 RayStations if you all are listening.

Yes, absolutely.

And so that means that there is still a big potential of selling more RayStations into our installed base. So it's only like 50% -- a bit more than 50% penetrated currently. And that's also what we see in every given time period right now, the license revenues that we get are 50% come from the installed base. So they buy more RayStations and they buy more modules within each RayStation. And on the module side, the penetration is even less. It's way less than -- there are about 20 variable options for RayStation. And there, the potential is much larger than the additional 50% or so.

Okay. Then maybe it's a stupid question. Why is it so that you have to use 3 to 4 TPS per LINAC? Is this something...

Yes, that's -- the LINAC is -- yes, that's an expensive capital equipment, and it should run constantly. So the treatment planning should never be the bottleneck. So you have always a redundancy in treatment planning compared to the LINAC. So you prepare because you don't see -- there is no direct link between the treatment planning system and the machine. The treatment planning is done a few days before the first treatment starts -- the first fraction starts. So this is a preparatory -- it's just about bandwidth. And it's the number of needed treatment planning systems. It's just about what the patient throughput is. But this is like the established numbers that are in the field.

Okay. And this is not something that is expected to go down, thanks to some sort of optimization or...

No, rather in the other direction with more adaptive treatments because you do a lot more planning. I mean, in a way, with the adaptive treatment, you do 30x more planning because you plan essentially every day. So a patient receives 30 fractions typically. And then with adaptive planning, you make a new treatment plan every day. So that means -- so yes, there is nothing that speaks to a lower number of TPSs.

Okay. I see that a lot of people are also asking questions, but I'll try to finish with just 3 more, if I may. I know that Elekta and Varian are competing more on pricing compared to you, I suspect. And that when I look through my notes after having gone through your conference calls, I see that you may have mentioned an average initial license fee of around SEK 4 million. Is this a good ballpark number? Or is it a big spread depending on...

It's a huge spread. And that was not a -- that's for what I have said, the SEK 4 million comes from the first sale when we get a new clinic. On average, they spend SEK 4 million on that first configuration. There is more -- I don't remember, but there are more RayStation licenses included in that. Typically, 4 RayStation licenses, I would say.

All right. And are you comfortable in providing some sort of average license fee for RayStation and perhaps even RayCare?

Yes, we haven't provided that, and it's very complex because it depends on so many factors.

Understood. All right. And then on adaptive therapy, if I understand this correctly, I mean, RayStation has the support for it, but there are other systems at the customer centers that are a limitation to this. Is that something that you will overcome by introducing RayCare at those centers?

Yes, I think RayCare is almost a prerequisite for good adaptive plan. You can do it without -- you can do it purely with RayStation, but it's more efficient if you have RayCare. But you have to separate between online and off-line adaptive because off-line adaptive, meaning that you do the adaptation between fractions. So you treat and then you measure and the next day, you come up with a new plan, that's offline adaptive. And that's -- that you can do without RayCare support, without any support of the machine vendor. But online adaptive, which means that we create a new plan in like, yes, less than 2 minutes when the patient is still on the treatment couch. So you take an image on the patient, 2 minutes later, you have a new plan and you can treat. That requires a collaboration with the hardware vendor typically. Not always.

Okay. And you have RayCare at a few clinics now. Are you seeing adaptive therapy being implemented at those locations?

Yes, we see adaptive being implemented. RayCare is at only 27 sites so far, but we expect that to grow, obviously.

All right. Okay. Just a final question, and then I will leave you alone. I understand that there is a consolidation in the U.S. of RT centers. And you have -- I mean, you are mostly at the larger clinics in the U.S., but the smaller clinics make up like 80% of the total number. Is the consolidation a positive for you guys in that market?

Yes, it can be positive because you have less -- you can reach more clinics by just negotiating with one business partner. And so we have several clinics that are -- several of our customers are made up of a chain of clinics.

So thank you.

Any oral questions?

Anymore oral questions? No?

Okay. Let me try. We had a question that we parked. I see now -- do you have -- maybe you remember.

Yes, it was a question of -- we -- in the report, we write that, of the total license revenue, SEK 69.8 million comes from the 3 largest customers and that, that is 12% of the license revenue. And the amount that is correct is the SEK 69.8 million, and I'm not sure why we have written 12%, but that is wrong.

Okay. Very careful reading by this.

Yes. So do you want to continue reading, Johan?

Yes. If I -- do I see the top, the next question or...

Okay. There's one that you can't see, Johan. So I'll read it for you. What is your forecast for order intake during 2025 and increased turnover?

We don't make those kinds of forecast. But what we are saying in the report and during this conference call is that we have a positive outlook on the -- both the order intake and the revenue growth for 2025.

Thank you, Johan. There's another question from Carlos Moreno. The marginal margin since Q1 '23 is 68%. What is the delta of plus SEK 326 million sales divided by SEK 326 million profit? I don't understand why you can't see this question. Surely, unless OpEx takes a huge step up, you are going to power at least power past 25% margins. Is this because to make RayCare a proper sales success, you are going to have to put a lot more money behind it?

I didn't follow that completely, but I can still answer it, I think. The answer is no, we will not have to put a lot more money behind RayCare to make it a success.

That's a short answer to that long question. Yes. But I think that answers the question because that was actually the last question. So I think you can read the next question yourself, Johan, because you see it on the screen.

Okay. On the full year 2024 year-on-year decrease in lease liabilities, did you have excess office space? Eva, can I hand it over to you -- no, sorry. Nina, can I hand it over to you or...

Yes. I guess the question is if we have excess office space, right?

The answer is yes.

Yes, exactly. So we have 2 floors, right, in this building.

Please add color to geographic sales trends, why 26.5% downtown in Europe and Africa in Q4 2024 year-over-year? So that is -- we see these fluctuations between the different regions from quarter-to-quarter. So that's quite natural. There can be a few larger orders that makes it a downturn or an upturn. But the nice thing is that they usually balance each other out. So when Europe is a bit weaker than likely APAC and North America is stronger and vice versa. So they tend to even out over time. Perhaps more detail on whether order intake is a valuable indicator for you, considering there is a weak correlation between sales and this variable, yes, the main reason -- it is a pretty poor predictor for sales growth. And the reason for that is, as Nina indicated previously, that in a quarter, especially for licenses, and that's the main source of revenue for us, the order intake and the revenue happens in the same quarter. So order intake for RayStation, for example, is almost immediately converted into revenue. So you can have -- so it's very hard to look at the previous quarter's order intake to predict the revenue for the next quarter because the things happen at the same time. So -- but we can -- it's still an interesting variable, but it's just that it has -- it's not perfect for this type of prediction. I move on to the next question then. From what I can read in the report, there is limited revenue from RayCare. How long does it take from the first quote until you can invoice RayCare? That's a good question. It takes a rather long time from the first quote to -- I mean, that's -- it can be 6 months, it can be 12 months, it can be 18 months, depending -- it spans quite a large -- it has a large span. If we take the Ortega order, which is extreme in that sense, we got the order in 2022, and we haven't recognized any revenue yet. We will start to recognize revenue in 2025 this year. So -- but that's extreme in the sense that those facilities are 9 proton facilities weren't even built when we got the order. That's usually not the case. So we can be quicker, but not much quicker than 6 months, I would say. Can you please give us some more color on the contract assets and contract liabilities impacting cash flow? How do you see this developing going forward?

Yes, I can try to answer that. It is a tricky question because, as I said, it fluctuates between the quarters up and down. We have a negative operating capital, and we see that, that will continue. But we will have cash flow effects between the quarters coming from the contract liabilities and the contract asset. And that depends a little bit how we negotiate each order and the installments related to that order because sometimes, and if we can, we negotiate that the installments or the payments will go together with the revenue recognition. But sometimes, we get paid upfront and sometimes we have longer payment schedules.

And especially for RayCare, I think the more RayCare we sell, the more we are paid earlier than we receive -- it doesn't match the revenue. We get the revenue much later than we get the actual payments from the customer. What percentage of revenue comes from customers leaving Pinnacle? I don't have that exact number now, but I think it's quite a lot maybe -- okay, I can say percentage of revenue, everything combined will support. But in percentage of license revenue, it's probably 60%, 70% currently. And that it varies quite a lot from market to market. But there are -- the background to this question is that there are -- Pinnacle is declared end of life. So after December 2026, Pinnacle is actually end of life. So all the remaining maybe 400 or 500 Pinnacle customers around the world will have to convert to something else before 1st of January 2027. So that's why we see a strong revenue stream from such customers currently.

Thank you, Johan and Nina. There were a lot of questions today.

Very good.

Good questions. Are there any more questions written or orally? Maybe Oscar, you want to ask another question? [ Oscar Bierman ], please go ahead.

Yes. I'm back. So on Pinnacle, you see that there is an installed base of roughly 4,500 systems.

No, exact LINACs.

Yes. Yes, exactly. And I'm wondering, I mean, this is -- this has to be replaced by the end of next year. But do you expect that a large portion has already been replaced? Or do you expect this to accelerate this and next year?

Yes. That's what I'm saying. If they remain, they haven't been converted yet, right? So there are -- this number is a bit uncertain, but whatever number I say, if it is 500, then they have to be converted still to something else, to RayStation, Eclipse or Monaco basically.

Okay. And how should one think about the risk of manufacturers trying to lock in their new machines to only be compatible with their own treatment planning systems? Is this a realistic risk?

No. It's a very small risk because the customers won't accept it to start with. And this has been tried a few times, but always with customers becoming upset and then it doesn't work that way. The other thing is that there are coming more and more alternative machines in the field from various vendors like Hitachi, LEO Cancer Care, BEBIG, Panacea and some others that will compete in this field. So -- and they all -- all of these new manufacturers are compatible with RayStation and RayCare. So there are many reasons why that -- I don't see that as a risk.

Okay. And just a final question before I promise that I'm finished. Because I understand that quicker and effective treatment, obviously, that will save money for the customers. But do you have any type of number that you have communicated on how much a center could be saving, thanks to RayStation?

We don't have that yet. We have various like components of the workflow and aspects of the operation. We can see -- we can calculate and show time gains at various customer sites. But we haven't compiled yet, but that's what we want to do at some point to show how the -- well, just model the clinic and see how much money the clinic can save by going to RayStation and RayCare. But that's something for the future. We have to -- we want to do that, but we haven't done it yet.

Okay. Okay. And in the proton field, I mean, you have a pretty large market share of like 85%, you say. And then I mean, I estimate your 12% overall on photons. Would you say that the -- I mean, if you look at proton therapy, that is a lot more expensive than photon. And when price is not really an issue and RayStation becomes a smaller portion of total costs related, I guess that sort of reflects the actual demand that you could see also for the cheaper photon fields. If you follows what I say. I mean the demand you see for proton could also be the demand you see in photon, correct?

Yes, that's what I think. And I think another such indicator is if you look at the most -- the highest ranking centers in the world, we have also a very dominant position. So for the top 15 clinics in the world, 10 are customers of RaySearch. So we have like a 67% market share in that top segment. And so that combined with the proton dominance should, in the long run, lead to a more reasonable market share in general for RaySearch. We shouldn't have 12%. It should be something much higher.

And in some markets, you are a lot higher. I think in England and Benelux, you're at 50% or...

That's correct. Exactly.

Thank you, Oscar. We have another oral question from [indiscernible].

First of all, congratulations for great performance in 2024. It's very impressive figures. It's nice to see that you are doing so well. So you and your team have really been working and doing a great work. So thank you for that.

Thank you.

But a simple question, we were already talking about the role of order backlog here, and it's not so valuable for forecasting sales in '25. And so -- and also you had this principle of not really giving a sales forecast or so exactly for the ongoing year here. But still, it's very interesting, of course, to know how you see on this. So what can you see -- or say about your idea of investments in sales and marketing, for example? Are you investing much more in sales and marketing this year than previously? Or are you continuing at quite the same pace or at the same rate like previously? So just to get some idea about how you see and what you are doing to improve the order intake during the ongoing year.

Okay. So we are investing -- nothing drastic will happen during 2025. We are investing -- we're adding some people in many different types of positions, including sales and marketing, in service, also in R&D some. But the OpEx growth from '24 to '25 would be similar to the one from '23 to '24. So there will be no drastic changes. So you have that and then you have our goal, the 25% EBIT margin in 2026. Yes, that's the one we've locked down to have at least 25% EBIT margin. And then we can sort of adjust the OpEx according to revenues to achieve that.

A couple of new questions in the chat.

Right. So I think it will be nice if -- when you ask a question, if you could present yourself, I think that would be -- maybe they are identified in these chats. I can see there. Okay. Maybe I should use this one.

Sorry, I don't mind asking a question just directly.

Okay. Are you, Jamie Clark or no?

No, I had a later question. I wasn't sure what the order was like.

Please go ahead and then I can...

So my first question was if customers are not going to accept the lock-in for manufacturers' TPS systems, as you said, then why have they accepted it for the oncology information systems?

Yes. I think that's for historical reasons. There was no alternative back in the days. There was -- these systems, they weren't called oncology information systems from the beginning. They were called record/verify systems, and they came with a machine from basically Elekta and Varian. So I think that's just a natural -- it was not like you could choose anything else.

Okay, I see.

It has a historical explanation, I think.

And just a second question would be, if you could add a bit more color to switching costs for your treatment planning system, so whether that's something that exists or whether it's making your software so user-friendly, it's rather easy for customers to switch?

Yes, we try to make it as easy as possible. But there's always -- it is -- there is some, well, cost obviously associated with changing systems to extra work, training, beam commissioning and other things. So even though I would like to say it's like perfectly smooth, it is -- it requires work and money from the customer to switch treatment planning system.

Yes. And the training cycle, is that rather long or does it...

That's -- it adds to the stickiness of the product. And that's also -- yes, we have almost 0 churn, very close to a very limited churn in our installed base. So -- of course, it's mainly because it's a good system, but also because it's a bit burdensome to change system.

Congratulations for the financial year.

All right. Thank you very much.

Thank you.

There's a hand raised.

Yes, that's [ Oscar Bierman ]. Do you have another question?

I don't, I think, sorry.

Okay. Are there any more questions for anybody? No.

All right. Well, thank you very much.

Thanks a lot for your participation today. It was a lively discussion. And we conclude the session now and look forward to continue talking to you. And if not before, it will be when the interim report for the first quarter of 2025 will be presented, and that's on the 9th of May. So thanks a lot for today, and goodbye.

Thank you. Thank you very much.